Women's Rights in Islam - UPDATED WITH MOD INSTRUCTION IN FIRST POST

Defender OF Faith · 31-12-2014 12:51am

katydid wrote: »

Special attention? Why? If it's just a normal part of life, why treat it as special?

And this is exactly why it deserve special attention, if this was not pointed out since it's a natural part of life, then it would have been an obligation for the women to pray during her menstruation regardless of whether she suffers from symptoms or no.

katydid wrote: »

Explain how waking up for morning prayer might be a problem because someone has their period? I fail to see the connection.

Numerous studies have "reported a significant influence of ovarian hormone status on cognition and person perception" there are many menstrually related mood issues supported by scientific findings I'll link a few below if your unaware.

Now it is well known that normal women suffer varying degrees of discomfort preceding the onset of menstruation, hence am not sure why are you arguing against this.
Because the Muslim women might find it difficult when suffering the such symptoms to wake up in the morning and pray.

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 12:53am

katydid wrote: »

Modern Christians, secular or otherwise.

Would you care to explain what the early church ruled about gender equality.

I think modern christian thought has diverged significantly from the original teachings, not only of Jesus, son of Mary, but also of early christian thought, including the nicene creed.

I'm not in favor of modernization in religion at all. If you claim that God revealed your scripture then who gave is the right as creation to change God's teachings?

katydid · 31-12-2014 12:54am

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

And this is exactly why it deserve special attention, if this was not pointed out since it's a natural part of life, then it would have been an obligation for the women to pray during her menstruation regardless of whether she suffers from symptoms or no.

Numerous studies have "reported a significant influence of ovarian hormone status on cognition and person perception" there are many menstrually related mood issues supported by scientific findings I'll link a few below if your unaware.

Now it is well known that normal women suffer varying degrees of discomfort preceding the onset of menstruation, hence am not sure why are you arguing against this.
Because the Muslim women might find it difficult when suffering the such symptoms to wake up in the morning and pray.

Why not have it so that anyone, male or female, who is suffering in any way, due to any illness, is excused from their normal obligations of prayer? Most women don't have any problems, and have no need to be excused, so by making a false assumption, Islam is being patronising towards women.

katydid · 31-12-2014 12:56am

muslimstudent wrote: »

Would you care to explain what the early church ruled about gender equality.

I think modern christian thought has diverged significantly from the original teachings, not only of Jesus, son of Mary, but also of early christian thought, including the nicene creed.

I'm not in favor of modernization in religion at all. If you claim that God revealed your scripture then who gave is the right as creation to change God's teachings?

The early church didn't rule anything about gender equality.
What, in the Nicene creed, addressed gender equality or inequality, other than the mention of the SON?

niamhstokes · 31-12-2014 12:58am

Just when you mentioned prayers there, i was thinking i have often heard muslims say Jesus prayed like a muslim. But the Bible shows us many stances in praying not just one.

About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray. As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem. Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him.
—Luke 9:28-32, NIV

After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed
—John 17:1a, NIV

I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer…
—1 Timothy 2:8a, NIV

Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I want to thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
—Luke 18:10-13, NIV

The servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt, and let him go.
—Matthew 18:26, NIV

[Jesus] withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.
—Luke 22:41-44, NIV

Then [Jesus] said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.” Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”
—Matthew 26:38-39, NIV

In 2 Samuel 7:18, David sat to pray.

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 1:05am

niamhstokes wrote: »

he fell with his face to the ground and prayed,

.

During our daily ritual prayer we:

Stand
Bow
Sit
Prostrate (just like Jesus)

we also lift our hands in prayer when we supplicate.

Males are also encouraged to dress like Jesus and to grow a beard.

We love Jesus so much and we hold him equal to our Prophet Muhammad whom we follow.

God Willing, I want to be with Jesus in Paradise.

I love him more than I love myself.

Defender OF Faith · 31-12-2014 1:05am

katydid wrote: »

Why not have it so that anyone, male or female, who is suffering in any way, due to any illness, is excused from their normal obligations of prayer? Most women don't have any problems, and have no need to be excused, so by making a false assumption, Islam is being patronising towards women.

You said most women, I don't think your familiar with the Muslim prayer or have talked to a Muslim women regarding this issue, I just pointed out that a normal women will suffer from varying degree of discomfort prior to menstruation, for a Muslim women going through this performing ablution 5 times daily by washing her face,feet and hand and proceed to perform the 5 daily prayer on time while suffering such discomfort may be difficult.

niamhstokes · 31-12-2014 1:06am

Just for a good perspective on Fashion and Modesty from a Catholic point of view I LOVE Leah Darrow, she was on America's next top model and left modelling when Christ called her. Now she preaches God's message across America. Here is a short video she made on Fashion and Modesty, it's only 2 minutes long but think you will like it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9M5yv7DoB8

And about men and modesty: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8XfbCrWa3c

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 1:07am

katydid wrote: »

The early church didn't rule anything about gender equality.
What, in the Nicene creed, addressed gender equality or inequality, other than the mention of the SON?

So then you have to refer to the texts in your scripture where God ruled about this issue.
Can you elaborate please.

katydid · 31-12-2014 1:12am

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

You said most women, I don't think your familiar with the Muslim prayer or have talked to a Muslim women regarding this issue, I just pointed out that a normal women will suffer from varying degree of discomfort prior to menstruation, for a Muslim women going through this performing ablution 5 times daily by washing her face,feet and hand and proceed to perform the 5 daily prayer on time while suffering such discomfort may be difficult.

I said MOST women because most women do NOT suffer discomfort during their period. Muslim women are not different from ordinary women, most of them will not suffer discomfort. That is some kind of myth you chauvinistic Muslim men have developed to justify the pretence that women are some kind of delicate creatures that need special treatment.

You haven't addressed my point that special treatment should be connected with actual, not perceived need...that women and men who are suffering for whatever health reason should be given consideration. Not assuming that all women have problems, when this is not the case.

Defender OF Faith · 31-12-2014 1:12am

niamhstokes wrote: »

Just for a good perspective on Fashion and Modesty from a Catholic point of view I LOVE Leah Darrow, she was on America's next top model and left modelling when Christ called her. Now she preaches God's message across America. Here is a short video she made on Fashion and Modesty, it's only 2 minutes long but think you will like it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9M5yv7DoB8

"A real fashionist uses clothing not her body to make a statement"

Thanks for directing me to such a beautiful massage.

katydid · 31-12-2014 1:13am

muslimstudent wrote: »

So then you have to refer to the texts in your scripture where God ruled about this issue.
Can you elaborate please.

God didn't rule about this issue.

Still waiting to hear what you think the Nicene Creed has to do with it, since YOU brought it up...

Defender OF Faith · 31-12-2014 1:15am

katydid wrote: »

I said MOST women because most women do NOT suffer discomfort during their period.

Where's your evidence that most women do not suffer discomfort during their period? as the scientific evidence I presented speaks otherwise, about how a normal women suffers varying degree of discomfort during her menstruation

niamhstokes · 31-12-2014 1:16am

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

"A real fashionist uses clothing not her body to make a statement"

Thanks for directing me to such a beautiful massage.

Welcome

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 1:17am

katydid wrote: »

God didn't rule about this issue.

Still waiting to hear what you think the Nicene Creed has to do with it, since YOU brought it up...

How can God, THE Lawgiver omit something as important as gender equality thus leave its rulings for creation to play around with.

What about the Catholic concept that women are cursed due to the sins of Eve and as punishment have to undergo the pains of pregnancy? and labor? As a doctrine, do you not find this to be unjust?

katydid · 31-12-2014 1:17am

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Where's your evidence that most women do not suffer discomfort during their period? as the scientific evidence I presented speaks otherwise, about how a normal women suffers varying degree of discomfort during her menstruation

I haven't seen any evidence in what you present that gives percentages. I know from talking to my friends and relations that very few in those groups, at least, have problems. And those that do just get on with life, because that's what you do. There is no reason to act or be treated differently because of some discomfort IF it arises.

confusedquark · 31-12-2014 1:19am

Period pain is extremely common. Some studies suggest up to 90% of menstruating women experience pain and discomfort during their period.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Periods-painful/Pages/Introduction.aspx

katydid · 31-12-2014 1:20am

muslimstudent wrote: »

How can God, THE Lawgiver omit something as important as gender equality thus leave its rulings for creation to play around with.

What about the Catholic concept that women are cursed due to the sins of Eve and as punishment have to undergo the pains of pregnancy? and labor? As a doctrine, do you not find this to be unjust?

Maybe God just assumes gender equality, and sees no need to spell it out. We are all God's creatures, why on earth is there any need to state what is obvious?

The concept you mention is not specific to Catholicism, it has arisen from time to time in various elements of Christianity. But it is not a tenet of Christianity.

Still waiting for what you have to say about the Nicene creed...

katydid · 31-12-2014 1:22am

confusedquark wrote: »

Period pain is extremely common. Some studies suggest up to 90% of menstruating women experience pain and discomfort during their period.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Periods-painful/Pages/Introduction.aspx

And other studies suggest otherwise. It always pays to read ALL an article, not just the headlines...

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 1:22am

niamhstokes wrote: »

Just for a good perspective on Fashion and Modesty from a Catholic point of view I LOVE Leah Darrow, she was on America's next top model and left modelling when Christ called her. Now she preaches God's message across America. Here is a short video she made on Fashion and Modesty, it's only 2 minutes long but think you will like it:

...

There are certain elements of her message that are quite good. She has a lovely spirit.

niamhstokes · 31-12-2014 1:24am

muslimstudent wrote: »

There are certain elements of her message that are quite good. She has a lovely spirit.

Yeah she is awesome!! I've watched her talks lots and follow her on twitter

http://leahdarrow.com/

confusedquark · 31-12-2014 1:29am

I did read the article - if you had a closer look at it, the other figures related to moderately painful in around 20% of women (and mildly painful/discomfort would obviously be a much greater number), and severe in 2% of cases.
In another study, up to 14% of women reported frequently being unable to go to work because of period pain (again, puts it at the severe spectrum) - all of this of this very much contrasts to your statement of "most women do NOT suffer discomfort during their period".

That said, from my understanding, I don't think pain and discomfort are the main reason why women are excused from prayers during their periods.

In the same way that if a man gets even a drop of urine on his clothes, he is not considered to be in a pure state, and is not permitted to pray until he has washed and changed (even if he could put a pad on), the same goes for menstruating females. The constant spotting (and sometimes more than spotting) means that they are not in the pure state for those days, and that's the reason they are not permitted to pray the obligatory prayers (but they are not prevented from making supplications).

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 1:30am

katydid wrote: »

Maybe God just assumes gender equality, and sees no need to spell it out. We are all God's creatures, why on earth is there any need to state what is obvious?

The concept you mention is not specific to Catholicism, it has arisen from time to time in various elements of Christianity. But it is not a tenet of Christianity.

Still waiting for what you have to say about the Nicene creed...

I just wanted to know what it had to say about Gender equality, if anything.

Do you realize that the old testament has many interesting rulings on gender issues, equality included.

Do you consider this text to be from Genesis:

“I will multiply your pains in childbirth. You shall give birth to your children in pain. You will long for your husband, but he will lord it over you.”

niamhstokes · 31-12-2014 1:45am

Do ye have something like ACTS when you pray?

Adoration (tell God how much you love him and how much he means to you) --Confession (confess sins and ask to be forgiven)--Thanksgiving (tell God all the things and blessings you are thankful for)--Supplication (this is like intercession, this is where you pray for others' needs and your own needs too if you have any)

Basically, i often pray when lying in bed at night and have a chat with Jesus about things. Would you guys do the same? like would you chat away to God like a best friend and tell him everything on your mind? Do muslims do that too?

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 1:54am

niamhstokes wrote: »

Do ye have something like ACTS when you pray?

Adoration (tell God how much you love him and how much he means to you) --Confession (confess sins and ask to be forgiven)--Thanksgiving (tell God all the things and blessings you are thankful for)--Supplication (this is like intercession, this is where you pray for others' needs and your own needs too if you have any)

Basically, i often pray when lying in bed at night and have a chat with Jesus about things. Would you guys do the same? like would you chat away to God like a best friend and tell him everything on your mind? Do muslims do that too?

When we supplicate to the One God we do the following
Praise God.
Thank Him.
Ask him to send, prayers and blessings to Muhammad(PBUH)

It is optional but strongly recommended to:
Repent from our sins.
Ask for forgiveness.
Pray for our brothers and sisters.
Ask for any need that we have.

So it seems like our prayers are similar except ours are always directed to Allah...

And yes, we have a personal relationship with God but it is more like a master, servant relationship.

There are so many similarities between the three Abraham Faiths- Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 2:02am

Our supplication would be along these lines : watch?v=Yn2yffB3keU (youtube)

I still cannot link!

Sorry about the audio effects , just focus on the main supplicator.

Defender OF Faith · 31-12-2014 2:08am

niamhstokes wrote: »

Do ye have something like ACTS when you pray?

Adoration (tell God how much you love him and how much he means to you) --Confession (confess sins and ask to be forgiven)--Thanksgiving (tell God all the things and blessings you are thankful for)--Supplication (this is like intercession, this is where you pray for others' needs and your own needs too if you have any)

To us Muslim this is called as you mentioned supplication or Duaa and are also incorporated during our daily prayer its reward is immense and is highly a encouraged virtuous act to perform supplication or duaa to God in Islam as he mentions:

“And your Lord said: ‘Invoke Me [i.e. believe in My Oneness and ask Me for anything] I will respond to your (invocation).

“And when My slaves ask you concerning Me, then (answer them), I am indeed near (to them by My Knowledge). I respond to the invocations of the supplicant when he calls on Me (without any mediator or intercessor)”

Here are examples of how our own prophet supplicated to his lord and notice how he incorporate adoration,confession and thanksgiving into his Duaa:

O Allah I ask You for Your Love,And the love of those whom You Love,And the actions that will cause me to attain unto Your Love,O Allah make Your love more beloved,to me than myself, my family and even from cold water.

“O Allah, I turn to You with no trust from me in other than You, nor a hope taking me except to You, nor a power that I rely on, nor a means that I resort to except the seeking of Your favor, expecting of Your mercy, and the havening into the best of that which You have accustomed me to, and You are more aware of what has come to me before in my turning to You of what I like and hate; so in whatever You cast on me Your power, it is praiseworthy Your trial (on me) and clear Your decree in it, and You efface what You will, and establish (what You will), and with You is the source of ordinance.

I ask You by Your Great Name, by the Light of Your Holy Face, and Your Ancient Kingdom, O You Ever-Living, Eternal, Ever-living, Eternal, and by Your Name by which the heavens and the earth have shone, and Your Name by which the first people had been righteous and by which the last people become righteous. O You the Alive One before everything alive, and the Alive One after everything alive, O You the Alive One, there is no god but You; make my deeds from among the accepted and highly raised deeds, and grant to me as You have granted to Your saints and the people of Your obedience, for I believe in You, rely on You, turn to You, and my coming is to You, and gather to me and to my family the whole goodness, and keep away from me, from my parents, from my family, and from my children the whole evil; You are the Kind, the Favorer, the Originator of the heavens and the earth, You give goodness to whomever You like and withhold it from whomever You like, so bestow on me Your mercy, O You the most Merciful of the merciful.”

niamhstokes wrote: »

Basically, i often pray when lying in bed at night and have a chat with Jesus about things. Would you guys do the same? like would you chat away to God like a best friend and tell him everything on your mind? Do muslims do that too?

To us Muslims this is called Night prayer or Qiyam al-Layl which is a voluntary prayer that's described in the Qur'an:

“And those who spend the night in worship of their Lord, prostrate and standing.

Their sides forsake their beds, to invoke their Lord in fear and hope, and they spend (in charity in Allaah’s Cause) out of what We have bestowed on them

Our prophet himself have said that:“The best prayer after the obligatory prayer is prayer at night.” and he said: “You should pray qiyaam al-layl, for it is the custom of the righteous who came before you and it brings you closer to your Lord, and expiates sins and prevents misdeeds.”

So not only do we have something similar we are encouraged to do it when we are able to.

Defender OF Faith · 31-12-2014 2:11am

muslimstudent wrote: »

Our supplication would be along these lines : watch?v=Yn2yffB3keU (youtube)

I still cannot link!

Sorry about the audio effects , just focus on the main supplicator.

Is this the correct link?

Note that this Imam is supplicating during prayer that's why you her people in the Clip behind him saying "Ameen" after what he says

This is the one Muslimstudent meant:

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 2:13am

This is the one: watch?v=T-jB4hqwFuM

niamhstokes · 31-12-2014 2:14am

Thanks very much

so do ye always have to do the special movements when you pray or can you just chat away to God like i do too lying in bed or going for a run or whatever when it isnt the formal 5 ones?

Women's Rights in Islam - UPDATED WITH MOD INSTRUCTION IN FIRST POST

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