Anti-vaxxers

Ronan|Raven · 05-03-2019 11:56pm

mulbot wrote: »

Point being, if some should have compulsory Vaccines, all should. How come no silly laugh emoji for the Influenza?

I just felt it was best to mock you over tetanus.

waxmoth · 05-03-2019 11:59pm

mzungu wrote: »

Basically, for the purposes of scientific investigation they distinguished between "functioning" and "non-functioning" members of society. This is common knowledge.

Yes, he is stating those patients are not equal so we will use them to conduct experiments. It was as wrong then as it is now.

The common denominator of the people used is obvious and the same thing happened here in religious run institutions with the same claims of consent. https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/special-investigation--vaccine-trials-on-children-worse-than-first-thought-300247.html

mzungu wrote: »

Aluminium salts are used in vaccines to strengthen to immune response.

So it is not valid, based on the definition of placebo, to use them as such in clinical trials if they are an active ingredient of the vaccine.

mulbot · 06-03-2019 12:13am

Ronan|Raven wrote: »

I just felt it was best to mock you over tetanus.

Well maybe when you grow up you should learn how to partake in a mature way.

jh79 · 06-03-2019 12:14am

waxmoth wrote: »

So it is not valid, based on the definition of placebo, to use them as such in clinical trials if they are an active ingredient of the vaccine.

Aluminium is in our drinking water. The exposure from a vaccines is a tiny % of our overall exposure from our enviorment. Insignificant really.

Anyways it has been used in placebos before and nothing showed up so no need to repeat for each vaccine.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/nine-questions-nine-answers/

Ronan|Raven · 06-03-2019 12:20am

mulbot wrote: »

Well maybe when you grow up you should learn how to partake in a mature way.

I do not really see any benefit in partaking with your arguments in any mature way.

mzungu · 06-03-2019 12:32am

waxmoth wrote: »

Yes, he is stating those patients are not equal so we will use them to conduct experiments. It was as wrong then as it is now.

The common denominator of the people used is obvious and the same thing happened here in religious run institutions with the same claims of consent. https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/special-investigation--vaccine-trials-on-children-worse-than-first-thought-300247.html

That was how they categorised them at the time. We do things a lot differently now. I have said before that not everything from the past is all sunshine and daffodils.

It does not mean that vaccines are not safe.

waxmoth wrote: »

So it is not valid, based on the definition of placebo, to use them as such in clinical trials if they are an active ingredient of the vaccine.

I disagree completely.

Adjuvants have been used safely in vaccines for well over 70 years and undergo rigorous safety tests. The research shows there are no major side effects to be concerned about.

mulbot · 06-03-2019 12:47am

Ronan|Raven wrote: »

I do not really see any benefit in partaking with your arguments in any mature way.

No of course not,better to come to a discussion and post childish emoji symbols.

rm75 · 06-03-2019 10:24pm

Orion wrote: »

I will indeed. She's a pharmacist. Therefore she understands pharmacology. There is no conspiracy. She's not advocating for vaccines just to make a buck. Vaccines save lives.

You're making assumptions there I'm afraid.
Again one can advocate for vaccines and point out the conflict of interest in her ramblings.

Dohnjoe · 06-03-2019 10:30pm

rm75 wrote: »

You're making assumptions there I'm afraid.
Again one can advocate for vaccines and point out the conflict of interest in her ramblings.

Right, so you appear to be claiming, without evidence, that someone is supporting vaccines and is being paid or coerced to do so?

If you have no evidence for it, that's a vague (appeal to motive) assumption surely?

rm75 · 06-03-2019 10:39pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Right, so you appear to be claiming, without evidence, that someone is supporting vaccines and is being paid or coerced to do so?

If you have no evidence for it, that's a vague (appeal to motive) assumption surely?

No i didnt claim that at all, I merely pointed that she or her family profits from selling pharmaceutical products and therefore we are entitled to point out the potential conflict of interest. Once again one can be pro vaccine and question her motivation.

You are of course free to speculate on the motivation of her statements but if you are honest you will accept that it is merely speculation on your part as you cannot know her motivation (and nor do i)

jh79 · 06-03-2019 11:50pm

rm75 wrote: »

No i didnt claim that at all, I merely pointed that she or her family profits from selling pharmaceutical products and therefore we are entitled to point out the potential conflict of interest. Once again one can be pro vaccine and question her motivation.

You are of course free to speculate on the motivation of her statements but if you are honest you will accept that it is merely speculation on your part as you cannot know her motivation (and nor do i)

There is no reason to question her motivation because the evidence completely supports her stance.

Conflict of interest as a negative or a sign of bias is only valid if the evidence is lacking.

Dohnjoe · 07-03-2019 2:12am

rm75 wrote: »

No i didnt claim that at all, I merely pointed that she or her family profits from selling pharmaceutical products and therefore we are entitled to point out the potential conflict of interest. Once again one can be pro vaccine and question her motivation.

Motivation for what?

Orion · 07-03-2019 12:56pm

rm75 wrote: »

You're making assumptions there I'm afraid.
Again one can advocate for vaccines and point out the conflict of interest in her ramblings.

There is no conflict of interest and if you really think she's secretly being paid to advocate for a public health issue then this is the site you need to use to report it: https://www.sipo.ie/en/

waxmoth · 08-03-2019 12:31am

jh79 wrote: »

Aluminium is in our drinking water. The exposure from a vaccines is a tiny % of our overall exposure from our enviorment. Insignificant really.
...

The bioavailability of oral aluminium from water/food is very low – somewhere in the region of 0.1 – 0.3% and the mechanism of action with intramuscular aluminium salts is completely different as it is almost 100% available and forms a long lasting reservoir which can trigger autoimmunity in the genetically and environmentally predisposed.

The uptake of aluminium through wounds is generally considered to be of little consequence except in the situation where aluminium is injected into the body as a vaccine adjuvant. Such adjuvants are added to vaccines to potentiate the immune response of the antigen. One of two adjuvants is commonly employed, either aluminium hydroxyphosphate or aluminium oxyhydroxide–both are insoluble and adsorb charged antigens at physiological pH 7.4. As these are injected directly into the body then they circumvent the body’s protective barriers and when they dissolve they can directly enhance the body burden of aluminium. For example, twenty injections, each containing 0.5 mg of aluminium, could release 10 mg of aluminium into the body (it might take 4000 days to reach the same level of intake from normal dietary intakes) of which 0.2 mg would be retained as a persistent body burden–making vaccines an important source of body aluminium; this is particularly true for children.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/8291/0c21c16f662d2f5ffba0d8b75810b2dab2a6.pdf

mzungu wrote: »

.....
Adjuvants have been used safely in vaccines for well over 70 years and undergo rigorous safety tests. The research shows there are no major side effects to be concerned about.

If you include a substance in both arms of a trial you will get equivalent effects.

jh79 · 08-03-2019 7:42am

waxmoth wrote: »

The bioavailability of oral aluminium from water/food is very low – somewhere in the region of 0.1 – 0.3% and the mechanism of action with intramuscular aluminium salts is completely different as it is almost 100% available and forms a long lasting reservoir which can trigger autoimmunity in the genetically and environmentally predisposed.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/8291/0c21c16f662d2f5ffba0d8b75810b2dab2a6.pdf

If you include a substance in both arms of a trial you will get equivalent effects.

But there is no evidence that this amount of aluminium is harmful.

Also whatever combination of vaccine vs placebo / saline you where asking for has already been done. If aluminium is a problem then why didn't show up in those clinical trials?

eagle eye · 08-03-2019 10:31am

TheRepentent wrote:

Need legislation to protect the majority....no vaccinations no school/creche.

Yeah you really thought that one through. Ban innocent kids from education.

Timberrrrrrrr · 08-03-2019 10:38am

eagle eye wrote: »

Yeah you really thought that one through. Ban innocent kids from education.

Rather see it as protecting innocent kids from life threatening diseases due to selfish/uneducated parents myself.

Igotadose · 08-03-2019 11:17am

mulbot wrote: »

Influenza, tetanus.

You should get tetanus boosters. Anti-vaxx parents ended up costing the Oregon taxpayer over $800,000 for the 8 weeks intensive treatment + emergency airlift their son received after contracting tetanus. He cut himself, parents bandaged him up, but tetanus set in. Put the kid through agonies - convulsions, lockjaw, etc.
Tetanus is rare but it can happen.

At least the parents were comfortable in their righteousness.

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/433160-unvaccinated-6-year-old-boy-from-oregon-was-states-first-tetanus-case-in

Igotadose · 08-03-2019 11:59am

Up to 71 confirmed cases in Washington state, hundreds of students not allowed into school due to potentially having been exposed, so all those parents have to cope with the kids now being home during the day. The anti-vax terrorists just keep on giving.

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2019/mar/07/cost-of-measles-outbreak-800-students-kept-out-of-/

kylith · 08-03-2019 12:39pm

Igotadose wrote: »

You should get tetanus boosters. Anti-vaxx parents ended up costing the Oregon taxpayer over $800,000 for the 8 weeks intensive treatment + emergency airlift their son received after contracting tetanus. He cut himself, parents bandaged him up, but tetanus set in. Put the kid through agonies - convulsions, lockjaw, etc.
Tetanus is rare but it can happen.

At least the parents were comfortable in their righteousness.

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/433160-unvaccinated-6-year-old-boy-from-oregon-was-states-first-tetanus-case-in

This bit totally gets me:

the boy’s parents declined a second dose of the tetanus-fighting medication and “any other recommended immunizations.”

TheRepentent · 08-03-2019 1:09pm

eagle eye wrote: »

Yeah you really thought that one through. Ban innocent kids from education.

I have thought it through plenty....it is sad that innocent kids have to suffer becasue their parents are fukwits , but lack of access to education gets trumped by the fact they could be vectors of contagious dieseases that can have life changing effects.

And the issue could easily be fixed by their parents.

Encephalopathy · 09-03-2019 1:36pm

jh79 wrote: »

But there is no evidence that this amount of aluminium is harmful.

Also whatever combination of vaccine vs placebo / saline you where asking for has already been done. If aluminium is a problem then why didn't show up in those clinical trials?

If there's a vaccine with a aluminium adjuvant Vs saline placebo clinical trials, please share.

If it's from the same place you got your information about aluminium ingestion Vs injection are the same, please just ignore my request.

mzungu · 09-03-2019 5:39pm

waxmoth wrote: »

If you include a substance in both arms of a trial you will get equivalent effects.

Encephalopathy wrote: »

If there's a vaccine with a aluminium adjuvant Vs saline placebo clinical trials, please share.

From the WHO expert panel recommendations...

Randomised, placebo-controlled trials are widely considered the gold standard for evaluating the safety and efficacy of a new vaccine. In these trials, participants are randomized to receive either the vaccine under investigation or a placebo (i.e. an inert substance, such as a saline injection). Randomisation and the use of placebo interventions are designed to control for confounding effects, such that significant differences in disease incidence or adverse effects between the vaccine and control groups can likely be attributed to the vaccine. However, randomised, placebo-controlled trial designs often raise ethical concerns when participants in the control arm are deprived of an existing vaccine. Furthermore, testing a new vaccine against placebo is scientifically and ethically fraught when the hypothesis being tested is whether an experimental vaccine is more efficacious than one already in use in the same or in other settings.

It would be unethical to use the placebo when a safe vaccine already exists as this would leave the study participant unprotected.

It is ethical to use an adjuvant instead of the vaccine in trials where the vaccine will have that adjuvant in it. Aluminium adjuvants can be used as placebo as they have been around long enough to have been studied for safety.

The study linked above goes more in-depth into acceptable and unacceptable uses placebos in clinical trials. You can peruse at your leisure.

As regards saline placebo, some vaccine studies do use them. A few are listed below:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25371534
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29443825
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29239682
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29217375
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28720281
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28522338
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28498853
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28376743
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27895921
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26411885

wobatkicker23 · 09-03-2019 5:44pm

Some of the sheeple on this thread are outrageously niaeve. None of you have an understanding of how vaccines work or the side affects they may incur but are happy to brand anti-vaxxers as loons.

I haven’t vaccinated my son and won’t be doing so in the future. Look into it before you declare judgement.

rawn · 09-03-2019 5:55pm

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

Some of the sheeple on this thread are outrageously niaeve. None of you have an understanding of how vaccines work or the side affects they may incur but are happy to brand anti-vaxxers as loons.

I haven’t vaccinated my son and won’t be doing so in the future. Look into it before you declare judgement.

Please, do explain.

brightspark · 09-03-2019 5:58pm

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

Some of the sheeple on this thread are outrageously niaeve. None of you have an understanding of how vaccines work or the side affects they may incur but are happy to brand anti-vaxxers as loons.

I haven’t vaccinated my son and won’t be doing so in the future. Look into it before you declare judgement.

You are right, I have only a slight idea of how vaccines work, however my doctor who has the training to understand how they work considers the risk of side effects a minor issue compared to the life threatening aspects of the diseases.

Any one who believes unqualified conspiracy theorists should look further into it before risking peoples lives.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 09-03-2019 6:03pm

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

Some of the sheeple on this thread are outrageously niaeve. None of you have an understanding of how vaccines work or the side affects they may incur but are happy to brand anti-vaxxers as loons.

I haven’t vaccinated my son and won’t be doing so in the future. Look into it before you declare judgement.

/cringe

Why have you not vaccinated your son?

Antivaxxers should be shipped off to some remote island in order to keep the sane safe...

wobatkicker23 · 09-03-2019 6:04pm

brightspark wrote: »

You are right, I have only a slight idea of how vaccines work, however my doctor who has the training to understand how they work considers the risk of side effects a minor issue compared to the life threatening aspects of the diseases.

Any one who believes unqualified conspiracy theorists should look further into it before risking peoples lives.

I have all the knowledge and textbooks that are available to the doctor on the subject.

How many times have you heard of a GP saying to cut down on fats when they are meant to be knowledgeable in terms of nutrition?

francois · 09-03-2019 6:06pm

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

sheeple

'nuff said

brightspark · 09-03-2019 6:13pm

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

I have all the knowledge and textbooks that are available to the doctor on the subject.

How many times have you heard of a GP saying to cut down on fats when they are meant to be knowledgeable in terms of nutrition?

So you know all about the serious complications of so called "childhood diseases" and still don't think vaccination is a good idea?

It seems to be true that anti-vaxxers think a dead child is better than an immunised child

francois · 09-03-2019 6:13pm

It is a start

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/mar/07/facebook-anti-vaxx-vaccine-hoax-ads

wobatkicker23 · 09-03-2019 6:15pm

brightspark wrote: »

So you know all about the serious complications of so called "childhood diseases" and still don't think vaccination is a good idea?

It seems to be true that anti-vaxxers think a dead child is better than an immunised child

I think given the choice, most people would choose a child without Autism.

mzungu · 09-03-2019 6:17pm

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

I have all the knowledge and textbooks that are available to the doctor on the subject.

I hate to break it to you, but you don't. I would be interested as to what medical textbooks you were reading?

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

How many times have you heard of a GP saying to cut down on fats when they are meant to be knowledgeable in terms of nutrition?

Never. Mine always told me they are an essential as part of a balanced diet.

Igotadose · 09-03-2019 6:20pm

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

I think given the choice, most people would choose a child without Autism.

What's vaccines got to do with that (:D). You are, of course, familiar with the recent study in Denmark, right? As someone with all the knowledge the doctor's have.

I mean, really. Is this the best the anti-vaxxers that lurk here (all 3 or 4 of you) can come up with?

wobatkicker23 · 09-03-2019 6:20pm

mzungu wrote: »

I hate to break it to you, but you don't. I would be interested as to what medical textbooks you were reading?

Never. Mine always told me they are an essential as part of a balanced diet.

I didn’t ask about your GP.

mzungu · 09-03-2019 6:21pm

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

I think given the choice, most people would choose a child without Autism.

No difference between rates of autism in areas with both high and low vaccine uptake rates.

Vaccines do not cause autism.

wobatkicker23 · 09-03-2019 6:21pm

Igotadose wrote: »

What's vaccines got to do with that (:D). You are, of course, familiar with the recent study in Denmark, right? As someone with all the knowledge the doctor's have.

I mean, really. Is this the best the anti-vaxxers that lurk here (all 3 or 4 of you) can come up with?

You are aware that the study carried out in Denmark was funded by the NWO controlled parliament?

wobatkicker23 · 09-03-2019 6:22pm

mzungu wrote: »

No difference between rates of autism in areas with both high and low vaccine uptake rates.

Vaccines do not cause autism.

Correlation does not imply causation and thergo the inverse is true.

francois · 09-03-2019 6:23pm

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

You are aware that the study carried out in Denmark was funded by the NWO controlled parliament?

oh dear

mzungu · 09-03-2019 6:23pm

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

I didn’t ask about your GP.

Most GPs would tell you they are an essential part of a balanced diet.

mzungu · 09-03-2019 6:24pm

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

You are aware that the study carried out in Denmark was funded by the NWO controlled parliament?

Ah Jaysus.

wobatkicker23 · 09-03-2019 6:26pm

mzungu wrote: »

I hate to break it to you, but you don't. I would be interested as to what medical textbooks you were reading?

Never. Mine always told me they are an essential as part of a balanced diet.

I don’t have access to all the knowledge?

brightspark · 09-03-2019 6:27pm

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

I think given the choice, most people would choose a child without Autism.

So you are saying you would prefer your son dead instead of being immunised!

But there is no credible evidence linking autism to vaccines, it would be just as easy to show a link between autism and the number of cars on the road...are you walking everywhere?

Perhaps it is organic food?

Perhaps it is mobile phones?

Given that mobile phones operate using radio frequencies have you taken the precaution of removing all sources of WiFi etc?

mzungu · 09-03-2019 6:28pm

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

Correlation does not imply causation and thergo the inverse is true.

This was not one study, this has been replicated numerous times. There are no differences between places with high and low uptake rates.

Although, there has been an increase in measles outbreaks in areas with low vaccination rates. You should really be worried about those, shouldn't you?

wobatkicker23 · 09-03-2019 6:30pm

brightspark wrote: »

Given that mobile phones operate using radio frequencies have you taken the precaution of removing all sources of WiFi etc?

I have taken this precaution actually.

francois · 09-03-2019 6:31pm

mzungu wrote: »

This was not one study, this has been replicated numerous times. There are no differences between places with high and low uptake rates.

Although, there has been a increase in measles outbreaks in areas with low vaccination rates. You should really be worried about those, shouldn't you?

Pointless arguing with the anti-vaxx zealots, no matter how much evidence you put forward (and there is a LOT), they will not believe you, because it would force them to confront the fact they are wrong, and they are unable to accept this. Thpough given the last post on wifi I'm starting to suspect a troll at work

Eoinbmw · 09-03-2019 6:32pm

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

I have taken this precaution actually.

Get in a boat and row off the side of your flat earth you moron!

Igotadose · 09-03-2019 6:33pm

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

You are aware that the study carried out in Denmark was funded by the NWO controlled parliament?

:eek::eek::eek:I had no idea! That explains it. Did they control the parliament in 2002 when they did the study previously?

Is that why tinfoil hats are illegal in Denmark?

brightspark · 09-03-2019 6:33pm

francois wrote: »

Pointless arguing with the anti-vaxx zealots, no matter how much evidence you put forward (and there is a LOT), they will not believe you, because it would force them to confront the fact they are wrong, and they are unable to accept this.

Yes, they need to be deported to a remote island along with the flat-earthers, preferably somewhere in the southern hemisphere.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 09-03-2019 8:08pm

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

I have taken this precaution actually.

Your children should be taken from you and given to a responsible family. The top priority should be the care of your child, not growing your ego at your childs expense.

It's really sad that anybody can have this much power over a human life.

Anti-vaxxers

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