Leaving Cert 2020 arrangements due to COVID-19

Millionaire only not · 19-03-2020 12:54am #1

Just asking yer opinion on leaving cert seen as the equivalent has been cancelled in the uk !
I’ve a teenager repeating there leaving and thought of another year gone there finding it unbearable but could it happen ?
Personally I don’t think so as the back log would mess up everything for years !
So could it be based on mock past papers , or sitting exam in July /aug ?
Opinions welcomed

MOD:
Update as of 10th April

This year's Leaving Certificate examinations have been postponed until late July or August.

The State Junior Certificate exams have been cancelled and will be replaced by school based assessments and school exams early in the coming academic year.

The Department of Education says the decisions have been made based on advice from the National Public Health Emergency Team.

Schools are to remain closed until further notice.

The deadline for submission of Leaving Certificate practical and other projects, in subjects such has History, Geography, Art, PE and Construction, has also been rescheduled for an as yet to be decided date later in the summer.

Details as to this year's Leaving Certificate timetable will be confirmed in early June, when there is likely to be a clearer picture as to the kind of public health concerns - such as social distancing requirements - that will need to be taken into account.

Final arrangements on scheduling and other details related to the examinations will be determined by the State Examinations Commission then.

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0410/1129844-state-exams-coronavirus/

Kobe2020 · 19-03-2020 1:01am

Millionaire only not wrote: »

Just asking yer opinion on leaving cert seen as the equivalent has been cancelled in the uk !
I’ve a teenager repeating there leaving and thought of another year gone there finding it unbearable but could it happen ?
Personally I don’t think so as the back log would mess up everything for years !
So could it be based on mock past papers , or sitting exam in July /aug ?
Opinions welcomed

Please don’t let it be based on mocks
Most people had the papers weeks before the exams.
There could be exams in June with 10 kids in a supervised classroom? 2 meters apart?

Millionaire only not · 19-03-2020 1:03am

Kobe2020 wrote: »

Please don’t let it be based on mocks
Most people had the papers weeks before the exams.
There could be exams in June with 10 kids in a supervised classroom? 2 meters apart?

Borris that said there results maybe based on past results ! Whatever that would mean but no a levels ths year it seems .

zeebre12 · 19-03-2020 1:32am

But surely a lot wouldn't even have the course covered yet like honours Maths? I don't see how it can work? No proper contact from your teacher for months? Even projects and things getting finished.

dartboardio · 19-03-2020 1:35am

postponed until september/oct maybe.

MathsNerd78 · 23-03-2020 12:51pm

Using mock exams is a complete non-runner for a number of reasons:
1. Not all schools do mock exams. The more enlightened schools have gotten rid of mock exams in favour of more class-contact.
2. Mock exam papers are compiled by private companies, vary dramatically in standard and often have significant flaws.
3. Mock exams are marked by unqualified and low-paid individuals resulting in a standard of marking that ranges dramatically in quality.

What this crisis has exposed is a major flaw in our reliance on the terminal examination. Moves to more continuous assessment are hampered by a traditional view of assessment that is prevalent among many practitioners and teacher unions.

With regard to how it might work, there will be a need to accept that the full assessment will not be possible. There are certain practical elements that will need to be assessed e.g. Music. However, with regard to the written papers, it is likely that they could go ahead as planned or with a slight delay. Larger, more spread-out exam centres may be required in order to facilitate social distancing. This will pose supervision issues. However, by drafting in civil servants through temporary re-deployment, this issue could be addressed.

rainbowtrout · 23-03-2020 4:16pm

MathsNerd78 wrote: »

Using mock exams is a complete non-runner for a number of reasons:
1. Not all schools do mock exams. The more enlightened schools have gotten rid of mock exams in favour of more class-contact.
2. Mock exam papers are compiled by private companies, vary dramatically in standard and often have significant flaws.
3. Mock exams are marked by unqualified and low-paid individuals resulting in a standard of marking that ranges dramatically in quality.

What this crisis has exposed is a major flaw in our reliance on the terminal examination. Moves to more continuous assessment are hampered by a traditional view of assessment that is prevalent among many practitioners and teacher unions.

With regard to how it might work, there will be a need to accept that the full assessment will not be possible. There are certain practical elements that will need to be assessed e.g. Music. However, with regard to the written papers, it is likely that they could go ahead as planned or with a slight delay. Larger, more spread-out exam centres may be required in order to facilitate social distancing. This will pose supervision issues. However, by drafting in civil servants through temporary re-deployment, this issue could be addressed.

The music practicals were cancelled last week.

I wouldn't agree on our reliance on the terminal examination. The current situation is unprecedented. Lots of things have had to be cancelled or postponed. As has been in the news for the last two days, it is increasingly likely that there will be no Olympics this year. That isn't a major flaw on the reliance on having it every four years though.

MathsNerd78 · 23-03-2020 4:56pm

My mistake on Music, although I think it was unnecessary to cancel all practical exams.

You can go down the road of making ridiculous comparisons to the Olympics if you like. Athletes are continually assessed through a variety of high-stakes competitions every year. The Olympics just happens to be the biggest one in the four-year cycle.

When it comes to the Leaving Certificate, having a heavy reliance on a terminal exam suits only a small proportion of students, favoring those with good memories and the ability to write clearly and cogently under stress. It gives absolutely no indication of a person’s abilities in other areas, such as interpersonal or organisational skills. It is skewed by effectively being a college entrance test, even though many young people do not go on to third level. It has spawned a vast grinds industry, which favours disproportionately those with enough income to afford help.

If you look at the profile of our teaching community, it is comprised almost entirely of white, middle class individuals, many of whom do an exceptionally good job. However, the vast majority of teachers could be considered to be among the cohort for whom the terminal exam was a good fit. A high proportion of teachers have a very limited understanding of the problems faced by working class families. I have spoken to many HSCL teachers who have had their eyes opened by visiting families in their catchment area and seeing, at first hand, the challenges faced by families on the fringes of society. The fact that their children make it to the door of the school in the morning is a huge achievement in itself. This will never be reflected in the student’s performance in a terminal exam.

If we are serious about tackling social disadvantage then we need to look at the exam system and overhaul it in its entirety. The will is there among policy makers but that’s not enough. There has to be an openness to change on the front line.

dartboardio · 23-03-2020 5:33pm

If they cancel or postpone the leaving cert. How will the college academic year work?

Most people going to college in September will be just after leaving cert.

Are they gonna defer an entire year of college until the next September?

That would be crazy!

fakharon · 23-03-2020 6:27pm

dartboardio wrote: »

If they cancel or postpone the leaving cert. How will the college academic year work?

Most people going to college in September will be just after leaving cert.

Are they gonna defer an entire year of college until the next September?

That would be crazy!

Hi, it’s an unfortunate time. Especially for you guys sitting this year. If things get worse, I believe that you may have to repeat the year again. They may also defer the whole year of college
Perhaps, they may also consider passing everyone. That would be unfair of course.
I’m asking the same question. I’m a repeat. Sitting my exam in 2021, externally.
My way of looking at it is philosophical but it holds very true. Life is Uncertainty. The future is uncertain. Your plans may not come to reality. However, that doesn’t matter does it? There is nothing you can do about it. “Wait, what’s the point of studying right now if I’m not even sure of the upcoming exams this year?” There is a possibility of the leaving cert this year, right? And since you are uncertain of college and the exam in June, why consider asking the former? Why waste your time on uncertainty? When you could be studying right now until further notice. If exams get cancelled this year, it’s not the end. You’ll get an opportunity to become better and stronger in your work. And you won’t be considered a repeat. You’ll get an advantage from the universe in a long time. So keep studying until informed regarding cancellation.
I wish you the best and may the exams commence as stated. You the man!

rainbowtrout · 23-03-2020 7:12pm

MathsNerd78 wrote: »

My mistake on Music, although I think it was unnecessary to cancel all practical exams.

You can go down the road of making ridiculous comparisons to the Olympics if you like. Athletes are continually assessed through a variety of high-stakes competitions every year. The Olympics just happens to be the biggest one in the four-year cycle.

When it comes to the Leaving Certificate, having a heavy reliance on a terminal exam suits only a small proportion of students, favoring those with good memories and the ability to write clearly and cogently under stress. It gives absolutely no indication of a person’s abilities in other areas, such as interpersonal or organisational skills. It is skewed by effectively being a college entrance test, even though many young people do not go on to third level. It has spawned a vast grinds industry, which favours disproportionately those with enough income to afford help.

If you look at the profile of our teaching community, it is comprised almost entirely of white, middle class individuals, many of whom do an exceptionally good job. However, the vast majority of teachers could be considered to be among the cohort for whom the terminal exam was a good fit. A high proportion of teachers have a very limited understanding of the problems faced by working class families. I have spoken to many HSCL teachers who have had their eyes opened by visiting families in their catchment area and seeing, at first hand, the challenges faced by families on the fringes of society. The fact that their children make it to the door of the school in the morning is a huge achievement in itself. This will never be reflected in the student’s performance in a terminal exam.

If we are serious about tackling social disadvantage then we need to look at the exam system and overhaul it in its entirety. The will is there among policy makers but that’s not enough. There has to be an openness to change on the front line.

It wasn't a ridiculous comparison. You said it your previous post that it's a flawed system based on a terminal exam and this situation has highlighted it. This situation is a once in a lifetime event. It doesn't mean that the system is flawed, it means that a postponement, cancellation or change to how it's going to run needs to happen this year.

And your comment about white middle class people is completely ridiculous. Until 15 years ago, the vast majority of this country was white, and Irish by nationality. We had few people of any other nationality in this country, therefore you are not going to have a multicultural teaching staff if you don't have a multicultural population. I am not what I would consider middle class. My father was a tradesman. My mother was a sales assistant. I'm not the only teacher who has a background like that.

Teachers are well tuned in to the hardships faced by students, we deal with them every day. Schools (particularly disadvantaged schools) have breakfast clubs to ensure kids are getting one decent meal in the day at minimum.

We teach a variety of subjects in school, the Leaving Cert tests students knowledge and skills in those areas. That is the point of the Leaving Cert. It is not a test of interpersonal or organisational skills.

MathsNerd78 · 23-03-2020 7:29pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

We teach a variety of subjects in school, the Leaving Cert tests students knowledge and skills in those areas. That is the point of the Leaving Cert. It is not a test of interpersonal or organisational skills.

Thank you! You have just re-iterated my point i.e. the Leaving Cert tests a narrow range of knowledge and skills. That is why it needs to change.

Also, you confirmed my point about a predominantly white workforce. I was referring to effect rather than cause. But on further reflection, other professions have managed to attract a variety of races and ethnicities, so why not teaching?

Descending into family anecdote doesn’t help your credibility. However, coming from a family with two working parents puts you well above the median socio-economic status.

dartboardio · 23-03-2020 9:38pm

I'm not doing my leaving certificate this year, but returning to college. Was just wondering what would happen if the entire academic year of college was cancelled or if that was possible!

landofthetree · 23-03-2020 9:39pm

Cancel the Junior Cert.

Double the spacing in exam halls?

rainbowtrout · 24-03-2020 4:37pm

landofthetree wrote: »

Cancel the Junior Cert.

Double the spacing in exam halls?

Could happen. There's also nothing to say that other buildings couldn't be taken into use for exams and hire more examiners to allow the JC to run. E.g. every small village and town has a community hall/centre of some description. There's no real reason that buildings like this couldn't be used for exams. The building generally isn't the issue, it's the need for examiners.

reg114 · 24-03-2020 4:41pm

Very possible that the leaving cert would sit in August with a view to processing all tests and offers ahead of the academic year, it will be an extremely tight turnaround but on the positive side, accommodation should be more accessible to students because at that stage we will be deep into a recession sadly.

rainbowtrout · 24-03-2020 4:43pm

reg114 wrote: »

Very possible that the leaving cert would sit in August with a view to processing all tests and offers ahead of the academic year, it will be an extremely tight turnaround but on the positive side, accommodation should be more accessible to students because at that stage we will be deep into a recession sadly.

Budget is not going to be pleasant in December that's for sure.

spurious · 24-03-2020 6:41pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Could happen. There's also nothing to say that other buildings couldn't be taken into use for exams and hire more examiners to allow the JC to run. E.g. every small village and town has a community hall/centre of some description. There's no real reason that buildings like this couldn't be used for exams. The building generally isn't the issue, it's the need for examiners.

True. Running the JC does not take anything from the LC setup. They are separate. No reason why it could not run, albeit delayed. A fair amount has already been spent on it as it is.

slipperyox · 24-03-2020 6:49pm

Why not just forget about it?
Its not important.

Students Pick 4 courses, Let colleges do their own entrance exam in September/October. Combine with hpat if needed.

Lc2020 · 24-03-2020 8:32pm

slipperyox wrote: »

Why not just forget about it?
Its not important.

Tell that to the thousands of students whose very lives centred on these exams for the past two years.
The government cannot and will not cancel the leaving cert exams and have prediticted grades in lieu of state exams, such a system isn't viable in a country like Ireland.

So you want to replace the leaving cert with an entrance exam? On what? Will this be based on innate talent or would students have stimulus material to study? If such an exam can be facilitated then I don't know why the leaving cert can't

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Budget is not going to be pleasant in December that's for sure.

1. The budget is released in October, your ignorance is telling
2. You really have your priorities straight (not)

To you and the poster above, the last thing we need right now is people going around saying a recession is on the horizon. Ireland will, contrary to your highly professional opinion, recover from this no problem.

rainbowtrout · 24-03-2020 8:48pm

Lc2020 wrote: »

1. The budget is released in October, your ignorance is telling
2. You really have your priorities straight (not)

To you and the poster above, the last thing we need right now is people going around saying a recession is on the horizon. Ireland will, contrary to your highly professional opinion, recover from this no problem.

Wow, the vitriol in your post is jumping off the screen.

As I'm quite a bit older than you, quite a number of our budgets were announced in December, it's only in recent years it's moved to October. The point still stands.

It has nothing to do with my priorities. I said nothing about a recession in my post, you just decided to attribute that to me for no reason whatsoever but to get a dig in. There is a reality that when the country comes out of this crisis, that the money borrowed to support those that were unemployed, to keep people receiving a wage, to support businesses that had to close, to pump money into the health service, has to come from somewhere. It doesn't grow on trees. So when the budget is announced we will have to pay higher taxes, there will be levies, there won't be extra given to the pension or to social welfare or the children's allowance. And that's fine. I support what the government are currently doing to curb the spread of the virus and support the people of this country. But it is not incorrect to say that it will have to be paid for somehow.

I also never said it was my highly professional opinion, you said that. The last recession was 12 years ago. You were probably in senior infants. I was watching my friends lose their jobs, emigrate to Australia, taking a pay cut, paying a pension levy that I'm still paying 12 years later, and will probably be paying until I retire. Some of the businesses that closed last week or this week will not open again, they won't be able to. Ireland will recover in time, as will other countries, but it won't happen overnight.

Now maybe you would be better occupied studying for your Leaving Cert rather than trying to score points off teachers online. You might have knowledge, but you are seriously lacking in wisdom.

slipperyox · 24-03-2020 10:18pm

Lc2020 wrote: »

Tell that to the thousands of students whose very lives centred on these exams for the past two years.
The government cannot and will not cancel the leaving cert exams and have prediticted grades in lieu of state exams, such a system isn't viable in a country like Ireland.

So you want to replace the leaving cert with an entrance exam? On what? Will this be based on innate talent or would students have stimulus material to study? If such an exam can be facilitated then I don't know why the leaving cert can't

And the solution you have is?

randylonghorn · 25-03-2020 10:13am

Lc2020 wrote: »

1. The budget is released in October, your ignorance is telling

Actually, it's your ignorance, self-absorption and bad manners which are shouting off the screen right now.

Formal warning: pull your horns in a bit or you will be taking a holiday from this forum too. - MOD

Lc2020 wrote: »

Ireland will, contrary to your highly professional opinion, recover from this no problem.

No affected country will recover from this "no problem". As RBT pointed out, a lot of money is being re-directed to dealing with this crisis (rightly), and a lot more will be directed to those worst hit when we get to the recovery phase.

This will have to come from somewhere.

naxmax9 · 10-04-2020 5:50pm

https://youtu.be/vZEEB_jG9qQ

Absolutely Ridiculous

spurious · 10-04-2020 5:59pm

What do you want? No exam?
It's postponed a bit. Not the end of the world.

byhookorbycrook · 10-04-2020 6:16pm

What alternative do you suggest ?

is_that_so · 10-04-2020 6:18pm

A YouTube rant is evidence of this?

Darc19 · 10-04-2020 6:18pm

Oh God, the snowflakes won't know what to do.

God help them when they have a real crisis in life.

Notmything · 10-04-2020 6:21pm

Is that your own YouTube channel? so basically this thread is for you to get extra views

randylonghorn · 10-04-2020 6:26pm

Darc19 wrote: »

Oh God, the snowflakes won't know what to do.

God help them when they have a real crisis in life.

Easy, please.

I don't agree with Nax either, but this is the LC forum, not AH, and the man is entitled to voice his opinion provided he does it within forum rules, which he has.

I guarantee that there are plenty of other LC students out there ranting right now, just didn't jump in here to do it (yet anyway).

Peregrine · 10-04-2020 6:37pm

You've probably already seen this but, for the sake of posterity, this is the latest announcement:

This year's Leaving Certificate examinations have been postponed until late July or August.

The State Junior Certificate exams have been cancelled and will be replaced by school based assessments and school exams early in the coming academic year.

The Department of Education says the decisions have been made based on advice from the National Public Health Emergency Team.

Schools are to remain closed until further notice.

Schools will remain closed until further notice, says Education Minister Joe McHugh. Junior Cert will be replaced by school-based exams in the next school year. Leaving Cert will be postponed to begin in late July or early August.

The deadline for submission of Leaving Certificate practical and other projects, in subjects such has History, Geography, Art, PE and Construction, has also been rescheduled for an as yet to be decided date later in the summer.

Details as to this year's Leaving Certificate timetable will be confirmed in early June, when there is likely to be a clearer picture as to the kind of public health concerns - such as social distancing requirements - that will need to be taken into account.

Final arrangements on scheduling and other details related to the examinations will be determined by the State Examinations Commission then.

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0410/1129844-state-exams-coronavirus/

https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1248631748839329797?s=20

mdudy · 10-04-2020 6:42pm

spurious wrote: »

What do you want? No exam?
It's postponed a bit. Not the end of the world.

Yes, obviously they should be cancelled. Ireland has an unhealthy, obsessive relationship with the Leaving Cert and teachers unwilling to give predictive grades.

This is going to predominantly affect those from lower-socioeconomic backgrounds as those who can afford to try again, not try at all (and go to a grinds school), or try with a supportive and healthy home-life conducive to studying, will do so. Never-mind those who want to study outside of the state.

To continue with an unclear policy, exacerbating the mental health effects of both the Leaving Cert and the coronavirus, is just plain cruel. Most sensible people will not envisage exam halls in Summer, and it is ridiculous that the government continues with this policy.

They should consider what the UK its doing or devise their own strategy. Of all the things the pandemic has presented this is an easy problem to solve, of which the government seem reluctant to solve adequately.

byhookorbycrook · 10-04-2020 7:08pm

What do you suggest, mdudy?

randylonghorn · 10-04-2020 7:12pm

It's far from a perfect solution, but there are no perfect solutions these days.

Predictive grades are a non-runner imho.

Even in the UK (where they have some experience of them) they have only been used heretofore for provisional college offers, subject to confirmation after final results.

And they have not been relevant at all for those not going on to third level.

I suspect that even there they won't be as easy to implement as Johnson et al think, even given that A-levels have more / earlier submission of CA / coursework. I would expect to see court cases arising out of students feeling they were disadvantaged tbh.

Here, they would be a complete nightmare. We have no experience of them here, we have no quality control system for them. Some teachers will (consciously or more likely unconsciously) be more generous than others. And what about the grind schools / businesses who sell themselves on their results? What about students repeating LC externally?

There are real problems with this, I agree, but I think there are far more / worse problems with trying to use predictive grading.

I do think that this crisis may well spur a re-think of the LC in the future, mind you.

Jijsaw · 10-04-2020 7:27pm

As a veteran of the Leaving Cert threads (2015 Leaving Cert, by God I'm old).

If I had got predictive grades:

The max my English teacher ever gave me was a 'B2' in HL English.
I got a 'C2' in English in the mocks.

In the real thing I got an A1.

With the marks I got in my mocks (about 460-ish), I would not have got the course that I'm finishing this June (two essays left and I'm free!).

I don't know why anyone would want predictive grades because there will be severe restrictions, you mightn't get the H1 or H2 that you would have got if you sat an actual exam.

Just keep practicing the exam papers and using videos to cover the bits of material your teachers haven't done yet, if they're refusing to teach online (as a lot of my former teachers are doing). The marking schemes are there to show you what to do.

randylonghorn · 10-04-2020 7:37pm

Jijsaw wrote: »

As a veteran of the Leaving Cert threads (2015 Leaving Cert, by God I'm old).

Here ya go, Jij!

images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQwbPe9naUTAewcKjlMzfxuaPx23p-xlk0wh4u5foAnpSPJ8PHv&usqp=CAU

Jijsaw wrote: »

If I had got predictive grades:

The max my English teacher ever gave me was a 'B2' in HL English.

In fairness, though, many teachers will mark you a bit under what they think you deserve during the year lest you get complacent.

I totally agree with you on your broader points tho.

naxmax9 · 10-04-2020 7:51pm

So stressed

spurious wrote: »

What do you want? No exam?
It's postponed a bit. Not the end of the world.

Predicted grades. I know it isn't fair for everyone but I believe it would have been the best option to cancel the LC and people not happy can do an exam at a later date

combat14 · 10-04-2020 7:57pm

by hook or by crook

mdudy · 10-04-2020 8:27pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

What do you suggest, mdudy?

As I suggested in my post, Ireland should look to the UK.

I would suggest a predicted grade approach. And if students are not happy with their predicted grades, the option to sit exams later in year (as in November/December, when, hopefully, life will be returning to some semblance of normality). Just because teachers are uncomfortable giving predicted grades doesn't mean they shouldn't.

They could look at implementing randomised, open-book exams for certain subjects, subject to the same plagiarism checks the universities use.

It's not that hard for a government to be creative with this. Their solution lacks any credible thought process other than 'postpone and hope for the best'

randylonghorn wrote: »

Even in the UK (where they have some experience of them) they have only been used heretofore for provisional college offers, subject to confirmation after final results.

[...]

I suspect that even there they won't be as easy to implement as Johnson et al think, even given that A-levels have more / earlier submission of CA / coursework. I would expect to see court cases arising out of students feeling they were disadvantaged tbh.

This is just false. Say what you want about them but unconditional offers exist.

Also, lol. A court won't even look at that provided there was a reasonable alternative, which there is: they can sit any exam they want to if they are not happy with their grade.

rainbowtrout · 10-04-2020 8:47pm

mdudy wrote: »

I would suggest a predicted grade approach. And if students are not happy with their predicted grades, the option to sit exams later in year (as in November/December, when, hopefully, life will be returning to some semblance of normality).

Work through the process of predicated grades for a minute....

So imagine the LC is cancelled, and predictive grades are used instead. Those who get their first choice in college will be happy with the system because it worked for them, those who do not get their first choice won't be happy.... and there would be far more of them than the former.

Under the current system, students get grades based on their performance in the exam, they have a right to view their scripts and a right to appeal any and all grades. They even have the right to appeal the appeal. At the end of all of that their grades are turned into a score. If their score is good enough based on the number of people that apply for a course and the number of places on it and where they feature in that list, they will be offered the course or not. Lots of students miss out on their first choice every year, but are accepting of the system... they didn't get the points.

If they were to miss out on a course because of a predicted grade, how do they even begin to appeal it? How do we ascertain students did or didn't make the grade for course requirements, the most obvious one being a H5 in HL Irish for Primary School Teaching?

And saying if they are not happy they can take an exam later in the year is a cop out. That exam is now being provided to them in July/August. If they were to do an exam in the winter (aside from the logistics), they've still missed the first year of college.

There isn't a single teacher in the country who could stand over a set of grades with 100% confidence and say 'this is definitely what they would have got'.

Jijsaw mentions above the case where he never got more than a B2 in class and got an A1 in the LC. We all know someone who had that kind of outcome in a subject in terms of a grade jump. Myself, way back when never got higher than a C in English the whole way through school. Got a B in my Leaving Cert.

We can stand over the grades given in a state run, standardised exam. We cannot stand over predictions.

Yes, it's crap for Leaving Certs, but this is crap for everyone. Those that have a bit of cop on will take the situation for what it is and get on with it as best they can. Life throws curveballs at people all the time.

History Queen · 10-04-2020 8:51pm

I'm a teacher and have mixed views on today, in particular I think the lack of clarity is greater now than before and I have huge concerns for my students and indeed every student in this cohort. Nevertheless, I cannot understand the desire for predicted grades? I outline my main issues below:

One problem with predicted grades is accountability, I'm a teacher, if I give say a predicted grade of H5 based on tests so far/homework/whatever parameters and a student wants to appeal it how does that work? What if the student claima I'm biased and uses example of 20 Vsware notes I have given said student as evidence? Other teachers haven't given this student any where near as many notes therefore I must be biased and giving them a poor predicted grade out of spite. Now as the teacher I'd argue that I'm consistant in my approach and every note was warrented and went undisputed at the time. Who decides which view is correct? How does a teacher and indeed a student ensure fairness?

Second issue, comparisons to the UK system. Students there KNOW that there is a predicted grade system in place and it is a well established system every year used to offer preliminary places pending eventual results. Students know how important these preliminary grades are and work towards them. Applying it retrospectively is grossly unfair as neither students nor teachers were operating with the intention of mocks/class tests etc being used for this purpose.

Third issue, mock examinations are notoriously inconsistant. There are two different companies so student's have sat different papers in wach subject with arguably different levels of difficulty. Some teachers adapt the paper, some teach to the exam/give students hints, some tell the students nothing about the exam prior to them sitting it. Some teachers correct their own mock exams, some send them for external correction. Standards of correction depend on who gets your set. Some mock examiners have SEC marking experience, some are primary school teachers, some are college students. The LC has a lot of problems admittedly, but at least the papers and marking are absolutely consistent (within a given cohort) with a lot of checks and balances to ensure that consistency.

I don't have a solution. I'm floored by the announcement today and hope that more clarity will be given sooner rather than later.

mdudy · 10-04-2020 9:00pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Work through the process of predicated grades for a minute....

So imagine the LC is cancelled, and predictive grades are used instead. Those who get their first choice in college will be happy with the system because it worked for them, those who do not get their first choice won't be happy.... and there would be far more of them than the former.

Under the current system, students get grades based on their performance in the exam, they have a right to view their scripts and a right to appeal any and all grades. They even have the right to appeal the appeal. At the end of all of that their grades are turned into a score. If their score is good enough based on the number of people that apply for a course and the number of places on it and where they feature in that list, they will be offered the course or not. Lots of students miss out on their first choice every year, but are accepting of the system... they didn't get the points.

If they were to miss out on a course because of a predicted grade, how do they even begin to appeal it? How do we ascertain students did or didn't make the grade for course requirements, the most obvious one being a H5 in HL Irish for Primary School Teaching?

And saying if they are not happy they can take an exam later in the year is a cop out. That exam is now being provided to them in July/August. If they were to do an exam in the winter (aside from the logistics), they've still missed the first year of college.

There isn't a single teacher in the country who could stand over a set of grades with 100% confidence and say 'this is definitely what they would have got'.

Jijsaw mentions above the case where he never got more than a B2 in class and got an A1 in the LC. We all know someone who had that kind of outcome in a subject in terms of a grade jump. Myself, way back when never got higher than a C in English the whole way through school. Got a B in my Leaving Cert.

We can stand over the grades given in a state run, standardised exam. We cannot stand over predictions.

Yes, it's crap for Leaving Certs, but this is crap for everyone. Those that have a bit of cop on will take the situation for what it is and get on with it as best they can. Life throws curveballs at people all the time.

Your premise is wrong. They wouldn’t miss their first year of college - it wouldn’t be their first year of college.

And an exam later in the year for those not happy with a predicted grade is NOT the same as the exam in July/August as you suggest it is. It is an alternative. It gives students an option; it is flexible.

Predicted grades are not meant to be infallible, teachers never have 100% confidence in them, hence the fact that they are predicted. No one is asking, nor would expect, 100% confidence.

So what? I got a D in my Art mock and a B1 in the LC and C1 in my History mock and an A1 in the LC. What do they have to do with anything? The nature of a mock exam is that you improve from them. No one is suggesting that they are indicative of a student’s performance, and I don’t think anyone would ever say that they are.

Imagine describing a pandemic that has infected over 1.5 million people as a curveball...

randylonghorn · 10-04-2020 9:04pm

mdudy wrote: »

This is just false. Say what you want about them but unconditional offers exist.

Well, I never heard of such and I have a few friends teaching in the UK.

That said, I'm not one to claim to know everything.

If they do, I would be very suspicious of their motives (in normal circumstances).

A ploy to increase student recruitment numbers perhaps? Many students would choose one university over another if they had an unconditional offer.

mdudy · 10-04-2020 9:05pm

History Queen wrote: »

One problem with predicted grades is accountability, I'm a teacher, if I give say a predicted grade of H5 based on tests so far/homework/whatever parameters and a student wants to appeal it how does that work? What if the student claima I'm biased and uses example of 20 Vsware notes I have given said student as evidence? Other teachers haven't given this student any where near as many notes therefore I must be biased and giving them a poor predicted grade out of spite. Now as the teacher I'd argue that I'm consistant in my approach and every note was warrented and went undisputed at the time. Who decides which view is correct? How does a teacher and indeed a student ensure fairness?

Second issue, comparisons to the UK system. Students there KNOW that there is a predicted grade system in place and it is a well established system every year used to offer preliminary places pending eventual results. Students know how important these preliminary grades are and work towards them. Applying it retrospectively is grossly unfair as neither students nor teachers were operating with the intention of mocks/class tests etc being used for this purpose.

I acknowledge the first concern. I do not think teachers should be accountable for predicted grades - given the extraordinary circumstances. If students are unhappy, they should have the option of sitting an exam, not recourse via an appeal of a particular predicted grade or a claim of bias.

Again, the notion that students work towards predicted grades is false. The majority do, but unconditional offers exist, despite recent clampdowns.

mdudy · 10-04-2020 9:08pm

randylonghorn wrote: »

Well, I never heard of such and I have a few friends teaching in the UK.

That said, I'm not one to claim to know everything.

If they do, I would be very suspicious of their motives (in normal circumstances).

A ploy to increase student recruitment numbers perhaps? Many students would choose one university over another if they had an unconditional offer.

And I have friends teaching in Kuwait. Doesn’t mean I know anything about their education system.

In 2019 they accounted for 25% of offers. Shall I introduce you to Google?

randylonghorn · 10-04-2020 9:20pm

mdudy wrote: »

And I have friends teaching in Kuwait. Doesn’t mean I know anything about their education system.

Except I have been listening to them fulminate about Johnson's decision for the last week, and not once did they mention that unconditional offers based on predictive grades were already common.

mdudy wrote: »

Shall I introduce you to Google?

Oh, wow!

Nvm, I'm out of this conversation as far as you're concerned.

History Queen · 10-04-2020 9:52pm

mdudy wrote: »

I acknowledge the first concern. I do not think teachers should be accountable for predicted grades - given the extraordinary circumstances. If students are unhappy, they should have the option of sitting an exam, not recourse via an appeal of a particular predicted grade or a claim of bias.

Again, the notion that students work towards predicted grades is false. The majority do, but unconditional offers exist, despite recent clampdowns.

Well in fairness by that logic you can also say somestudents here don't work towards their LC because some don't need it for their next step.

But anyway, what I meant by that is every student in the UK system (not sure actually that it is all of the UK is Scotland slightly different?) is fully aware of the use of predictive grades before they do any work that will be used in the prediction of said grade.

rainbowtrout · 10-04-2020 10:03pm

mdudy wrote: »

Your premise is wrong. They wouldn’t miss their first year of college - it wouldn’t be their first year of college.

And an exam later in the year for those not happy with a predicted grade is NOT the same as the exam in July/August as you suggest it is. It is an alternative. It gives students an option; it is flexible.

Predicted grades are not meant to be infallible, teachers never have 100% confidence in them, hence the fact that they are predicted. No one is asking, nor would expect, 100% confidence.

So what? I got a D in my Art mock and a B1 in the LC and C1 in my History mock and an A1 in the LC. What do they have to do with anything? The nature of a mock exam is that you improve from them. No one is suggesting that they are indicative of a student’s performance, and I don’t think anyone would ever say that they are.

Imagine describing a pandemic that has infected over 1.5 million people as a curveball...

With our appeal system, a student can appeal, have their paper re-marked and if they are successful and it makes a change to their points which would generate a new college offer, they can accept that offer and go and do that course in this academic year. So yes they can do first year in college this year if they are successful. What you are proposing with an alternative exam in winter means that this would not be an option for them.

You've just said yourself predicted grades are not meant to be infallible. Then why would we use them? Any student who doesn't get what they want would not be happy with the outcome.

Based on the grades you said you got in your mocks and LC exam, if you were a LC today, you could have been given vastly different grades if they were on a predicted basis which could have had a material difference on what you did after the LC.

And my comment was in no way belittling the situation with the pandemic. These students will be thrown into all sorts of situations later in life and they will have disappointments, and plans will fall through and change and things won't work out as they had expected. The fallout of the Leaving Cert is one of those things. Some will take it on the chin, knuckle down in June and see it as an opportunity to get an extra month of work done to try and improve their grade, and some will take it as an opportunity to complain constantly about how their summer is ruined.

mdudy · 10-04-2020 10:05pm

History Queen wrote: »

Well in fairness by that logic you can also say somestudents here don't work towards their LC because some don't need it for their next step.

But anyway, what I meant by that is every student in the UK system (not sure actually that it is all of the UK is Scotland slightly different?) is fully aware of the use of predictive grades before they do any work that will be used in the prediction of said grade.

That’s a weird way to extend that logic and it’s not exactly relevant to the discussion nor my point.

Yes, I accept that point, to an extent. However, I don’t think there is much difference between a student working towards their A Levels, with knowledge of predicated grades, and a student working towards their LC, with none: they are both working towards final state exams and, generally, being assessed as they go. I get that UK students may work harder during the year for better predicted grades, but we will not get a perfect solution that suits everyone.

I’m unsure how one would surmount it to be honest, apart from with what I’ve previously suggested, acknowledging that that not exactly solves the issue, but gives students a ‘second’ chance, if wanted.

mdudy · 10-04-2020 10:14pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

With our appeal system, a student can appeal, have their paper re-marked and if they are successful and it makes a change to their points which would generate a new college offer, they can accept that offer and go and do that course in this academic year. So yes they can do first year in college this year if they are successful. What you are proposing with an alternative exam in winter means that this would not be an option for them.

You've just said yourself predicted grades are not meant to be infallible. Then why would we use them? Any student who doesn't get what they want would not be happy with the outcome.

Based on the grades you said you got in your mocks and LC exam, if you were a LC today, you could have been given vastly different grades if they were on a predicted basis which could have had a material difference on what you did after the LC.

And my comment was in no way belittling the situation with the pandemic. These students will be thrown into all sorts of situations later in life and they will have disappointments, and plans will fall through and change and things won't work out as they had expected. The fallout of the Leaving Cert is one of those things. Some will take it on the chin, knuckle down in June and see it as an opportunity to get an extra month of work done to try and improve their grade, and some will take it as an opportunity to complain constantly about how their summer is ruined.

I think it has to be recognised that this year can not be worked out like previous years, and nor should it be.

Yes, it wouldn’t be an option for them. That’s exactly what I mean. Students with offers from U.K. institutions are being told they may have to defer if the LC is held that late in Summer (I’m dubious to this as they may need numbers next year but, nonetheless, that’s what students have been told).

Exactly, any student not happy will have the opportunity to take an exam, sometime later. The point is for an easy solution to get people moved on.

I would doubt that teachers would base predicted grades on mock results as we all know what they’re like. But no, I would have decided not to do the LC this year and go to a grinds school next year. Which illustrates my point: this policy will disproportionately affect those from lower socioeconomic backgrounds. It is purposefully cruel.

Your last paragraph belies a horrible attitude to be honest. It presupposes people can just work at home easily, never mind the fact that there’s a pandemic, and they have access to a study space, etc. Have you tried studying at the minute? I have and I’m a long way past the LC: it is nigh on impossible and my institution have implanted very welcome mitigation measures to acknowledge this and, in their words ‘It is the right thing to do’. These are not ordinary circumstances and the sooner the DofE and people like you recognise that the better.

rainbowtrout · 10-04-2020 10:38pm

mdudy wrote: »

Your last paragraph belies a horrible attitude to be honest. It presupposes people can just work at home easily, never mind the fact that there’s a pandemic, and they have access to a study space, etc. Have you tried studying at the minute? I have and I’m a long way past the LC: it is nigh on impossible and my institution have implanted very welcome mitigation measures to acknowledge this and, in their words ‘It is the right thing to do’. These are not ordinary circumstances and the sooner the DofE and people like you recognise that the better.

Actually I haven't presupposed anything. I am aware of the differing situations of my students as it stands, and not just those in Leaving Cert. Teachers for the most part will do what they can to support their students. There is no perfect solution to the situation, but allowing the exams to run allows students to be graded fairly. The background from which they are coming may not be a level playing field at all, but there is very little we can do about that at the moment. Students are being given the opportunity to sit the exams and make the best of it, as that is all they can do. Some will use it to get the LC and move on to college, some will just want to get the exams done and out of the way and get a job, some might not sit it at all and choose to repeat next year.

You said yourself that if you were in this situation that you would repeat in a grinds schools, and that this disadvantages people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds. Well.... people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds have never had access to grind schools whether it be for this situation or any other Leaving Cert year. The advantage that you would have had was always available to you, so it's not fair to say that suddenly it only affect those who can't afford it this year. They could never afford it any year.

Repeating LC in their own school will still be an option for many students if they wish to do so.

Leaving Cert 2020 arrangements due to COVID-19

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