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Pro14 Season 2019-2020

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    #152
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    None of the unions would gain from this fantasy. Until a majority of them would it’s absolute and utter bollocks. The Welsh fans can continue to embarrass themselves


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    #153
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 17,013 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    Is that article accurate, saying the IRFU made €85m in 2018, while the WRU made £97m?

    If true, where is the Welsh money going?


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    #154
    ClanofLams
    Registered Users Posts: 4,210 ✭✭✭ClanofLams


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    Is that article accurate, saying the IRFU made €85m in 2018, while the WRU made £97m?

    If true, where is the Welsh money going?

    Figures are right. Just from a quick look on Twitter it seems Wales are carrying more debt than the IRFU do. The IRFU have a surplus this year mainly due to a land sale whilst the WRU are posting a loss. Also saw it pointed out that in 17/18 the IRFU surplus was €2.7m and the WRU surplus £2.3m


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    #155
    mike_cork
    Registered Users Posts: 595 ✭✭✭mike_cork


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    Is that article accurate, saying the IRFU made €85m in 2018, while the WRU made £97m?

    If true, where is the Welsh money going?

    This very question came up on twitter....Simon Thomas et al saying its due to payments on the Millenium stadium debt.
    There is a strong "The Irish control the Pro 14" vibe going on, as if the IRFU are some Bond movie like super villain. The idea that Irish rugby is a well run org, with a passionate (and growing) fan base seems not to have figured into any of the welsh rugby conversations.


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    #156
    Exclamation Marc
    Registered Users Posts: 11,382 ✭✭✭✭Exclamation Marc


    mike_cork wrote: »
    This very question came up on twitter....Simon Thomas et al saying its due to payments on the Millenium stadium debt.
    There is a strong "The Irish control the Pro 14" vibe going on, as if the IRFU are some Bond movie like super villain. The idea that Irish rugby is a well run org, with a passionate (and growing) fan base seems not to have figured into any of the welsh rugby conversations.

    I'd love to see how their national side suffers if they joined a British league due to having to compete domestically and then see them blame the English next.

    It's always easy playing the aggrieved party.


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    #157
    razorblunt
    Registered Users Posts: 17,300 ✭✭✭✭razorblunt


    mike_cork wrote: »

    Like much of his work....A lot of that Thomas article is if's and what if’s without any cold black and white facts (and contains his usual anti pro 14 undertones).
    From a TV/CVC prospective who would you want to have on board this project? A passionately supported Irish province (take your pick of any of the 4) vs the likes of Leicester/Bath/wasps….Or Dragons? Ospreys?
    This "British and Irish" league may or may not happen-But it certainly won’t happen within a 2 year timeline.

    He plays it all nice but the undertones are always there, though coming to the surface more and more. He's hanging onto the sellout Cardiff had for Saracens but as someone pointed out to him (and conveniently ignored) the Ospreys had a better attendance vs Treviso than they did vs Worcester.


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    #158
    mike_cork
    Registered Users Posts: 595 ✭✭✭mike_cork


    razorblunt wrote: »
    mike_cork wrote: »

    He plays it all nice but the undertones are always there, though coming to the surface more and more. He's hanging onto the sellout Cardiff had for Saracens but as someone pointed out to him (and conveniently ignored) the Dragons had a better attendance vs Treviso than they did vs Worcester.

    Sometimes facts don't suit a narrative :pac:

    The other line which is coming up again (as it always does) is that Irish provinces rotate their squads thereby devaluing the Pro 14- Because in no other sport including rugby does this happen
    :rolleyes:
    The exact same thing happens in the English Premiership but the welsh don’t seem to have an issue with that. It's actually so frustrating to read the holes in their arguments.


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    #159
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Former Former wrote: »
    I don't know why people get so angry about this. It's all pie in the sky but you can't blame the Welsh for wanting something better.

    The Pro14 is a fundamentally rubbish product. We Irish fans are fine with that because we are so dominant and it suits our wider needs perfectly. We don't love it for what it is, why should we expect the Welsh to?

    The Welsh, on the other hand, are struggling badly on field and off field. If our situations were reversed and a better option was out there, no matter how unlikely, we'd be saying exactly the same.

    Why the rage? Why do people take such delight in saying "they only have themselves to blame"?

    I think rage might be overstating it a bit there FF. I reckon a lot of people are just a bit sick of (online) Welsh fans taking shots at the league and at Ireland for their problems and the leagues when a huge amount of the issues both face are due to the Welsh themselves. Their revenue is higher than ours. Their cost of living lower. Yet they are run in such a way that their regions get far less than our provinces. Imagine if they were as well funded and as a result their regions were more consistently competitive? How good would Welsh rugby and the league be then?

    While I get that there are numerous and complex issues in Welsh rugby, it is beyond tiresome listening to the lazy excuses that are trotted out time and again. And the same lazy, magic, fix-all solution too which is a complete pipe dream.


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    #160
    razorblunt
    Registered Users Posts: 17,300 ✭✭✭✭razorblunt


    mike_cork wrote: »
    razorblunt wrote: »

    Sometimes facts don't suit a narrative :pac:

    The other line which is coming up again (as it always does) is that Irish provinces rotate their squads thereby devaluing the Pro 14- Because in no other sport including rugby does this happen
    :rolleyes:
    The exact same thing happens in the English Premiership but the welsh don’t seem to have an issue with that. It's actually so frustrating to read the holes in their arguments.

    He was falling over himself when Munster and Leinster sent weakened teams over and won!

    When the Ospreys sent their reserves to Cork and Dublin he was strangely quiet.


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    #161
    mike_cork
    Registered Users Posts: 595 ✭✭✭mike_cork


    razorblunt wrote: »
    mike_cork wrote: »

    He was falling over himself when Munster and Leinster sent weakened teams over and won!

    When the Ospreys sent their reserves to Cork and Dublin he was strangely quiet.

    It was all part of the diabolical IRFU master plan :pac:
    #Weruntheleague :P


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    #162
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,248 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I have some (limited) sympathy for some of the Welsh rugby fans. It's not that long ago the WRU were suggesting a merger between Ospreys and Scarlets, for example. I got talking briefly to an Ospreys fan in Galway after they had been beaten 46-5 by Connacht, right around that time and he was understandably p*ssed off.

    Others around here will know the history of Welsh rugby more than me, but in a sense, Ireland was lucky that it had 4 provinces that people could immediately identify with, whereas the Regions didn't have that.


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    #163
    AdamD
    Registered Users Posts: 12,411 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    mike_cork wrote: »
    razorblunt wrote: »

    Sometimes facts don't suit a narrative :pac:

    The other line which is coming up again (as it always does) is that Irish provinces rotate their squads thereby devaluing the Pro 14- Because in no other sport including rugby does this happen
    :rolleyes:
    The exact same thing happens in the English Premiership but the welsh don’t seem to have an issue with that. It's actually so frustrating to read the holes in their arguments.

    We might have to stop rotating our squads if the Welsh sides stop being ****e.


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    #164
    Eod100
    Registered Users Posts: 11,655 ✭✭✭✭Eod100


    aloooof wrote: »
    I have some (limited) sympathy for some of the Welsh rugby fans. It's not that long ago the WRU were suggesting a merger between Ospreys and Scarlets, for example. I got talking briefly to an Ospreys fan in Galway after they had been beaten 46-5 by Connacht, right around that time and he was understandably p*ssed off.

    Others around here will know the history of Welsh rugby more than me, but in a sense, Ireland was lucky that it had 4 provinces that people could immediately identify with, whereas the Regions didn't have that.

    I completely understand that but just think the idea that this league is an answer to all their problems is a bit overstated. Blues and Dragons finished all of a combined 13 points ahead of the 2 SA teams this season. How would they fare in a league with English clubs, Scots and Irish? Think any league needs a competitive Welsh but not sure this league is instant fix for that.


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    #165
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,847 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    aloooof wrote: »
    Others around here will know the history of Welsh rugby more than me, but in a sense, Ireland was lucky that it had 4 provinces that people could immediately identify with, whereas the Regions didn't have that.

    They're also overstretching with 4 teams. They forget that they have half the population of Ireland and we can just about run with the 4 teams.

    We also don't have any other professional sports to compete against. They have Cardiff City and Swansea City dominating the markets of all 4 regions.

    At the end of the day as the article from the Rugby Paper says, unless they go to full union control like us, Scotland and the Southern Hemisphere unions, then they'll never fulfill their potential.


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    #166
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    They're also overstretching with 4 teams. They forget that they have half the population of Ireland and we can just about run with the 4 teams.

    We also don't have any other professional sports to compete against. They have Cardiff City and Swansea City dominating the markets of all 4 regions.

    At the end of the day as the article from the Rugby Paper says, unless they go to full union control like us, Scotland and the Southern Hemisphere unions, then they'll never fulfill their potential.
    they're not really over stretching with history of sport in the country they are over stretching with number of sides in such a small area. If one side was based up in colwyn bay it wouldnt be as bed.
    Swansea and Carsiff down in championship helps a lot as was worse when they were in premiership.


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    #167
    Heymans
    Registered Users Posts: 579 ✭✭✭Heymans


    Can't believe people here are entertaining the idea of joining an English Celtic League. Would we really jump in after the Welsh if money was thrown at us? It would go contrary to the history of our country and I can imagine some not too happy Irish rugby supporters if the IRFU capitulated in such a fashion.

    Are there alternatives? Of course - add South African and Italian teams to the League or even Scottish teams. Alternatively I ouwld prefer to see us in a glorified televised AIL with teams created in Derry Cork Waterford and all of the other populated towns/cities around Ireland.

    To say we you don't mind the English tearing apart our morals and independence with money and the g8y Welshmen is treason.


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    #168
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Heymans wrote: »
    Can't believe people here are entertaining the idea of joining an English Celtic League. Would we really jump in after the Welsh if money was thrown at us? It would go contrary to the history of our country and I can imagine some not too happy Irish rugby supporters if the IRFU capitulated in such a fashion.

    Are there alternatives? Of course - add South African and Italian teams to the League or even Scottish teams. Alternatively I ouwld prefer to see us in a glorified televised AIL with teams created in Derry Cork Waterford and all of the other populated towns/cities around Ireland.

    To say we you don't mind the English tearing apart our morals and independence with money and the g8y Welshmen is treason.
    what Italian teams and south Africans will stay in super rugby so none of those sides will join and any others would be worse than the sides already in the league. Why would that be wanted?

    Glorified ail? That is never going to happen you would be far better with more a games and using the existing clubs in ail better than they currently are and trying to get a knock on effect to junior clubs.


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    #169
    Exclamation Marc
    Registered Users Posts: 11,382 ✭✭✭✭Exclamation Marc


    I don't see it happening.

    The Heineken Cup would collapse if essentially every team bar the French were in the same league.


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    #170
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 17,013 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    I'd actually love to see the English and Welsh form a league, then again form a breakaway European tournament, demanding that representation go back to a country and not league quota :pac:


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    #171
    Heymans
    Registered Users Posts: 579 ✭✭✭Heymans


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    what Italian teams and south Africans will stay in super rugby so none of those sides will join and any others would be worse than the sides already in the league. Why would that be wanted?

    Glorified ail? That is never going to happen you would be far better with more a games and using the existing clubs in ail better than they currently are and trying to get a knock on effect to junior clubs.

    Create them. Italy has many other cities and South Africa has room for more teams to be created. "Build it and they will come." Even if the standard is crap it's better than the alternative on capituplating on our country's history by joining the English.


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    #172
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Heymans wrote: »
    Create them. Italy has many other cities and South Africa has room for more teams to be created. "Build it and they will come." Even if the standard is crap it's better than the alternative on capituplating on our country's history by joining the English.
    therebis teams in these Italian cities they're just not good enough to step up south Africa doesn't at all have room for more sides. Have you actually seen anything written or discussed about south African rugby recently? Their is a large exodus of players and creating more teams will just see poorer teams than those already in the league and what does more poor standard teams being added to the league do to helping grow the league?

    Joining with the English for a British and Irish league would be far better than that alternative and would in no way be forgetting about the countrys history unless you were extremely foolish or childish


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    #173
    Heymans
    Registered Users Posts: 579 ✭✭✭Heymans


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    therebis teams in these Italian cities they're just not good enough to step up south Africa doesn't at all have room for more sides. Have you actually seen anything written or discussed about south African rugby recently? Their is a large exodus of players and creating more teams will just see poorer teams than those already in the league and what does more poor standard teams being added to the league do to helping grow the league?

    Joining with the English for a British and Irish league would be far better than that alternative and would in no way be forgetting about the countrys history unless you were extremely foolish or childish

    You're a WUM. Joining a British Irish League would be tantamount to treason against the Irish people and would be the death knell for rugby in this country. No self respecting Irish person would ever look at another rugby ball again and to paint it as some forward looking new era in Ireland is sickening. Why would we ever weant to be part of the Union again be that in rugby or politically?


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    #174
    irelandrover
    Registered Users Posts: 3,696 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    Heymans wrote: »
    You're a WUM. Joining a British Irish League would be tantamount to treason against the Irish people and would be the death knell for rugby in this country. No self respecting Irish person would ever look at another rugby ball again and to paint it as some forward looking new era in Ireland is sickening. Why would we ever weant to be part of the Union again be that in rugby or politically?

    We play in the champions cup with them.


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    #175
    Heymans
    Registered Users Posts: 579 ✭✭✭Heymans


    irelandrover wrote: »
    We play in the champions cup with them.

    Completely different. Pan European League not some souped up version of the United Kingdom reforming in a sporting context. It would be tountamount to treason against Ireland.


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    #176
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,607 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    Ah yes, because the Irish people have been calling treason every 4 years when the British and Irish Lions series rolls around.....


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    #177
    Zzippy
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    Heymans wrote: »
    Completely different. Pan European League not some souped up version of the United Kingdom reforming in a sporting context. It would be tountamount to treason against Ireland.

    Mod: Banned. No need for anyone else to reply.


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    #178
    ClanofLams
    Registered Users Posts: 4,210 ✭✭✭ClanofLams


    Cheetahs have signed Craig Barry on three year contract. Previously played for them on loan from the Stormers, got 4 tries in 9 games before being recalled, including this cracker v Scarlets.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lKUmyvwybv8

    They are definitely going to make their conference more interesting next season than the predictable group it initially looked.


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    #179
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,076 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.ultimaterugby.com/news/leonardo-sarto-signs-deal-with-benetton-rugby/617871

    Benetton Rugby has announced that it has reached an agreement with Leonardo Sarto, who has signed a contract with the side until June 30, 2020.


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    #180
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    https://www.ultimaterugby.com/news/leonardo-sarto-signs-deal-with-benetton-rugby/617871

    Benetton Rugby has announced that it has reached an agreement with Leonardo Sarto, who has signed a contract with the side until June 30, 2020.

    The fact that an Irish province has not signed him to a ten year contract is a disgrace.


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    #181
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Ruan Pienaar is on the bench to make his Cheetahs debut tomorrow in the Currie Cup.


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