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25-05-2017, 10:24   #16
hot buttered scones
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Originally Posted by boydkev View Post
I currently dont do speedwork/intervals and that is why i looked at a plan with just more mileage basis. I can run 5 days a week.
With regard to my times for races this year,
5K - 20.32
10K - 41.41
10M - 70.34
Half - 1.36 (done during 25k race)

Looking at the HH Intermediate 1 & 2 there are a few pace runs on the saturday before the LSR on sunday.
Your times are pretty close to mine and your 10k time looks to be the best out of them. 25k race - Great Railway Run by any chance?

Honestly, I think you'll get more out of it if you even do just one session a week. From a 35 mile a week base and those times I see no reason why you couldn't follow a plan with a bit more structure to it. If your hell bent on Hal Higdon, why not look at one of the advanced programmes? Advanced 1 has only 1 session per week, but it has 6 days of running. Some of the shorter runs could be done as recovery runs.
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25-05-2017, 15:08   #17
paddydriver
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Thanks HBS for the thread.. probably fits right in with where I can get some help and also maybe give some input. Was DCM 2016 Novice and obviously interested to see how the DCM 2017 Novice thread goes.. and will be there for it myself in Oct hopefully too.

I eeked out a 3:59 in DCM 2016 and then recently upped this to a 3:41 in Limerick end of April. Putting it out there..I can tentatively say my target is a BQ time for April 2019. Will be 45 next May and then aiming to see what we can do. 3:25 is time currently for 45-50 but I would be needing a 3:22ish most likely.. Ambitious, Yes! Achievable.. well that remains to be seen.

I followed the Boards Modified plan for DCM 2016 and comfortably got that in and went well over on the miles. I did find the last few DCM miles very very tough and I expended everything to get in under the 4:00.. and I paid for it in the hours afterwards. Limerick last month was a far better experience and I felt strong over last few miles so that has given me confidence to go better.. maybe I had an exceptionally good day or maybe my training worked.. and its this last bit that I move on to.

I am not the most disciplined for following a plan but I do like to get the miles in. Since DCM 2016 I basically just kept up the miles and did lots of hills.. this latter part is what I think benefited me most in Limerick. I just like going out running, sometimes maybe too fast, and I enjoy hills and I love the long runs.. having 3 young kids its nice to get away early in the morning to do lots of miles and then get back to enjoy the day with them knowing that my Sat long run is done.

I honestly don't have a clue where to go from here and what I need to be doing to get my times down further. I know I need to start doing more strength and conditioning work as I am starting to get some quad and knee pain more often again, and some non running work is needed there. For now I am just running and keeping up the hills when possible. I always try get my long run in at the weekend.. though I have missed a few in May, well 10-12M as compared to usual 17-20M. My average pace has dramatically improved but possibly that's a bad thing or maybe I just run faster now.. not sure.

My times would be around the following:

5k - 21:07 - 2nd half a 10k recently.. Ran 1st half with my daughter and then went for it! Think I have a sub 20 in me
10k - 46:00ish.. have not done a 10k race recently other than above.. Target would be sub 45 or better this year
Half - 1:45ish - No half's recently but thinking I can do a 1:41-42
Full - 3:41 - Limerick 2017

That's me.. Happy to help and also Happy to take help..
Thanks


Oh.. I am booked in the Dublin IM Half in August. Some cross training required... Lots of swimming too!
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25-05-2017, 18:53   #18
 
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Great idea for a thread.

At the moment I'm trying to break 50 mins 10 km so that
I can train for a sub 4 hr marathon.

I'm doing between 20 to 30 miles a week at the moment.

I'm not sure what plan I'll follow, probably a bit of boards and try to fit in some speed work. First goal though is the 10 km and if I can't manage that then I'll jog around the course for fun.
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25-05-2017, 19:27   #19
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Brilliant idea for a thread. Like hot buttered scones I'm now tapering for Cork. Relative novice, ran my first marathon in Dublin last year in 3:53, but joined club this year and was hoping to improve. Got half marathon pb down to 1:29:58 in March( those 2 seconds are crucial lol). However I think ive made a serious error in marathon prep by running LSRS too close to my marathon pace. I suppose I'll find out on the day what impact that with have and I'll update here. I reckon it maybe an issue though. At least it is something to work on for Dublin, fitness etc permitting.
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25-05-2017, 20:15   #20
 
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I'm probably a bit in no man's land as I've made a sub-3 attempt but still have a PB that is a good chunk and probably another cycle away from another attempt. I haven't used any plans from books or certain coaches for any of my marathon attempts in the past. My first marathon was Limerick 2013 where I had only being running about 3 months properly, had no idea how to train and ran about 20 miles a week. That was a painful 4.07 finish.

I joined a club soon after that and jumped in to speed sessions every week and generally did my own thing outside of that. I was a little better read on training and decided to have a pop at redemption for the DCM 13. Training was a lot better this time around as I actually did long runs albeit making a lot of mistakes along the way, as in I'd go out on a Sunday long run and run it as fast as I could. A rough 23 miler about 4 weeks out caused me a lot of recovery problems so I had to take a full break between then and marathon day with only a few very sloggy runs. I actually did feel good by the time raceday came around but lost out on a sizeable chunk of training which hurt my possible finish time. Averaged around 30-35mpw with peak just over 40 and ran 3.15.

My Next attempt was The DCM 2014. Consistency was an issue for the first half of the year but I finally got motoring around June under a plan from the club coach. My training was much better this time around, the volume was pretty much the same as I had used for Dublin the previous year but the balance of intensity was much more manageable. A slight weakness in it now that look back was that I was doing a lot more fast midweek interval sessions when more highend aerobic work so it could've being more specific but my coach was a little concerned about me losing my base speed. The first real mistake I made during this cycle was probably 3 weeks out, similar to DCM 13, I done a 30k@MP workout 3 weeks out. That wasn't quite as mad as the year before but it took a little more out of me than I needed at the time. Finished the 30k in 2:06 picking it up towards the end which was 2:58 marathon pace on already tired legs. That result gave me a lot of confidence going into the race that I could go sub-3. As a good few might remember, the weather on raceday was freakish for October in Ireland. Hot, Humid and windy but that's not really an excuse as the marathon isn't just about you and the clock, it's a race against all the elements and your body on the day. I made the mistake of going out at sub-3 pace when I was probably borderline on a perfect day. Struggled early on with the humidity and strong headwinds around mile 10 and start slowing just after halfway. My knee gave out at about 21 miles and I limped home in 3:56.

The marathon is one unforgiving mofo so I'd like to get it right just once so I'm going to have a crack off the DCM again this year and hoping to get a PB and that train rolling again as well. Once again, I'm not going to use a direct plan although writing this makes me think I should. I want to start getting more involved with club training again so I'll probably try and fit those in with my schedule which will probably be based around Lydiard. Decent volume with alot of highend aerobic running. Mainly a diet of long runs and steady to MP runs mid-week.

My PB's:

5k: 18:34(2013)
10k: 39:45(2014)
10m: 65:3x (2014)
Half: 1:26.26 (2013)
Mar: 3:15.29 (2013)

Well aged at this stage when they really should be a lot faster. Need to get that PB feeling back again so hopefully I can get the ball rolling again
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25-05-2017, 20:23   #21
denis b
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Absolute top class idea M with this thread and probably the motivation I require to start planning for a DCM 2017 assault. Have 3 marathons done in my current life: Belfast '14 4:11, Belfast '15 DNF and DCM '15 in 3:54. Spent most of 2016 on a climbing GAP year but kept the mileage ticking over bagging a new 5km and 10km pb.

Plan for this year in DCM is to go 3:3X. Its achievable and carrying a bit of form (new 5km (20:32) and 10km (43:41)pbs in April/May). Have a winter and and spring of decent progressive endurance runs and longer midweek runs under my belt and mileage will be heading to 70+ kms a week now. The DNF for Belfast '15 came after leaving my race day run on the training course by running one of my last long progressive runs far too fast (P&D). Brilliant feeling, but I never recovered from it.

Lesson learnt and went back to simple no nonsense Boards Plan finishing in reasonably good shape and easily breaking the 4:00 hr target. Was happy with that as a relatively new to running, heavier and older runner.

I am veering towards P&D again as I feel that the extra experience over the last 2 years give me something to work with.

Last edited by denis b; 25-05-2017 at 20:55. Reason: times
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25-05-2017, 20:43   #22
kit3
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Great idea for a tread. Out with a dose of plantar fasciitis at the moment but would be interested if it improves. Best of luck with your training
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25-05-2017, 21:22   #23
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Could I ask you to expand on this particular aspect if you don't mind?

What are the factors that a person should look at when trying to choose the right plan? Since the post the other night where I gave a very brief overview of my marathon experiences, I've had a little bit of time to have a look at Strava (not in a great amount of detail mind), but enough to give me a few pointers about what may have gone wrong...

From my own perspective, if I'm honest I probably do have a bit of difficulty in sticking rigidly to plans. That is reflected in the Strava record of my other experiences. That is also reflective of my approach to life in general. I see these things more as guidelines, rather than things that are exactly followed. I do understand that there is science and experiences of many others underpinning all these plans. I do also believe that there is many different ways to skin a cat.

Sometimes my job is settled and I can wrap all the other parts of my life around it neatly. It also has the potential to go bat crazy for a couple of months or weeks, and everything else has to be wrapped around that. It can't be predicted, but the likelihood of getting through a full marathon cycle without some bit of interruption is unlikely.

I guess I'm now angling away from P&D following on from your question. I've had a look at all the different options that the OP kindly put up in Excel format. The one that immediately catches my eye is the Meno modified plan. My instinct looks at it and goes:- long runs... tick, lots of MP work... tick and then sees sufficient scope for me to add in an extra workout if I feel like it on a particular day when the body feels good, the mind is up for it and the route is one that lends itself to having a good running day.... but the plan says not to....

This is the thing that will ultimately defeat me. As an example, we were on for a club run last night of 10 miles, in two halves of 5 miles each with a few minutes in between. I really wanted to take it easy enough in the 8:00 to 8:30 pace. Other were in agreement, but no-one stuck to it, myself included. We ended up doing the 10 mile (hilly) route in 77 minutes on a hot evening. I could have done without that after the weekend efforts ( a tough half marathon), but just couldn't help myself.

I guess that's it. I lack the discipline to put the plan as the foremost priority, rather than prioritising my enjoyment of the run that is currently happening... So maybe I need to work on my discipline before embarking on an ambitious plan. The marathon requires discipline, so how do I train myself to be disciplined. Is it to keep making mistakes?

Maybe I should pick a plan that should give me some scope, but will also gauge how well I can stick to a plan with less elements than most.

So Meno for DCM 17, P&D for Spring 18 and Hanson for October 18 :-)

Thoughts welcome!
I included that comment because I think a lot of people jump into P&D a little early in their marathon careers, and may not make it through the plan, never mind the marathon itself. It's not that it's particularly difficult, more that it assumes a certain level of base mileage and experience. The clue is in the title. It is not a beginners plan. It could be an improvers plan, but not until they have two or three successful marathon cycles behind them, in my opinion.

I was going to suggest the meno plan for you, but I see you've already come around to that way of thinking yourself. The flexibility is good for people with odd schedules. And it has some great sessions that, in my experience for marathons 2, 3 and 4, really helped me to understand what marathon training is all about - something you can then take into a plan like P&D. Meno designed the plan specifically for improvers and it's worked for a lot of people around here - in my case helping me get down to sub 3:30 from a 4-hour-plus debut.

Re doing stuff like 10-mile training runs at close to 10-mile race pace - this is the kind of thing that destroys a good marthon cycle. Getting sucked into tooo-fast club sessions and overtraining is something till simply have to be disciplined about, if there's no sane voice at your club reeling you in. I see it every year at my own club, lads blistering through track and tempo sessions at the wrong pace, and having poor marathons as a result. Some of them get so disheartened you never see them again.

Departing from the plan - any plan - is fine as long as you know what you are doing. But if you don't, you risk wasting four months of hard work, as you've probably found out already. You always need things to go your way on the day anyway if you're going to run a good marathon - stacking the odds against yourself with poor training never works. Which is why it's important, as stated elsewhere here, to read the logic behind the sessions. If you understand the purpose of easy and recovery runs, you should be less likely to replace them with additional sessions that just add stress and lead you towards increased risk of burnout and injury.

You're no novice as you have a good few marathons done, but yet to get to grip with it and get the result you're capable of. Time for a more sensible approach!
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25-05-2017, 21:57   #24
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Great thread, have one successful Marathon DCM 2015 3.48 did Dave Carey plan and was orignaly like a lot of people on first Marathon thinking sub 4, so went really well on the day despite going into the training recovering from injury and only been doing 15 or 16 miles a week and only running a year.

Trained well for Cork last year, never missed a session or a time target, but think I was the opposite to some and was too rigid, like taking on a tough session on a Wednesday after PBing in a half on a Sunday, when recovery was order of the day and resulted in injury and DNF in Cork. So have done a few half Marathons since and have another two before Dublin, I intend doing meno plan, but being bit more focused on recovery than hitting every session. Have managed a few long runs without two much bother at planed MP for Dublin, which is 3.30 , really want to just get confidence of a decent Run in Dublin, and I think 3.30 and Meno plan is a good place to start, so looking forward to getting going in July or so and hopefully training will feel like a step back initially after building a bit of running strength over last few months.

Best of luck to every one.
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26-05-2017, 00:02   #25
 
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Great idea for a thread, it's something I feel I need at this point!
I too was a DCM '16 novice. I trained well for that, but had a shin injury 7 weeks out and missed a couple of weeks. On the day I felt great up to mile 16 then faded, quickly, to a 4:20.
Ran London in April. I trained much better for it, following HH IM2 as I thought the pace runs followed by long runs would help my stamina. Ran a 1:46 HM in March without pushing it too much and thought I was a shoe-in for sub 4, but blisters and, strangely enough, stamina again meant I faded after 18 miles to a 4:16.

Currently training for the Clontarf HM, although even now I'm not thinking of this as a PB race. I'm also signed up for DCM again and the meno plan looks really interesting. I like the fact that the weekly mileage is a bit higher and that it's flexible enough for me to fill up the miles with my run to/from work.
My plan for DCM is once again a sub-4, it's becoming a bit of an obsession at this stage, but I'm hoping if I can build up my endurance I can push on a little bit.

Current PB's: 5k 21:46, 5m, 37:53, 10k 48:38 (ages ago), 10m 1:21:xx, HM 1:46:53, M 4:16:45
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26-05-2017, 06:23   #26
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Great idea OP.

First marathon was DCM '13. My training was sporadic at best. Limped home in 4.23. Ran it again in '14 and picked up an injury about 7 weeks before and struggled round in 4.41.
It was after this very painful experience I started to take training a little more seriously and managed to get home in 4.02 at DCM '15. From here I joined a club in early 2016 and
started doing intervals/speedwork and my times and fitness improved dramatically. My HM pb went from 1.49 to 1.42 to 1.35 within the next 8 months. I also fell in with a good training
group and a sub 3.30 marathon was begining to look like a possibllity. I managed to break the 4hr hoo doo in Dingle last September on what I had originally planned to be a LSR but my
competitive streak came out and I banged out a 3.50.xx.
So I was all on for a sub 3.30 in DCM '16 but I blew up at mile 19 and shuffled home on 3.38.39 (exactly the same as hot buttered scones).
On analysis after DCM '16 I figured that I didn't do enough MP long runs. I tended to do my them at 830-840 pace. Which in hindsight was
too fast for my target time and not fast enough to count as a MP long run. I could have also left my marathon at mile 22 of Dingle.

I'm going to give DCM '17 a miss this year and I'm doing the Lanzarote full instead. I'll not be racing it. It's more as a box ticking exercise than anything.

Just to add I used an amended version of P&D 55 for DCM last year and I'll probably do the same for Lanzarote. I do like the meno plan too.
I work straight nights and between kids and lack of sleep I have to work hard to get in my runs when needed.

I'm currently training/tapering for Cork HM on the June weekend and I have a 10 miler lined up in Roscommon in early July. All going well I'll pb both or at least one.
Beyond that I'd love to break 3.30 early next year or at least have a good crack at it in DCM '18
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26-05-2017, 08:44   #27
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Originally Posted by kin9pin View Post
Great idea for a thread, it's something I feel I need at this point!
I too was a DCM '16 novice. I trained well for that, but had a shin injury 7 weeks out and missed a couple of weeks. On the day I felt great up to mile 16 then faded, quickly, to a 4:20.
Ran London in April. I trained much better for it, following HH IM2 as I thought the pace runs followed by long runs would help my stamina. Ran a 1:46 HM in March without pushing it too much and thought I was a shoe-in for sub 4, but blisters and, strangely enough, stamina again meant I faded after 18 miles to a 4:16.

Currently training for the Clontarf HM, although even now I'm not thinking of this as a PB race. I'm also signed up for DCM again and the meno plan looks really interesting. I like the fact that the weekly mileage is a bit higher and that it's flexible enough for me to fill up the miles with my run to/from work.
My plan for DCM is once again a sub-4, it's becoming a bit of an obsession at this stage, but I'm hoping if I can build up my endurance I can push on a little bit.

Current PB's: 5k 21:46, 5m, 37:53, 10k 48:38 (ages ago), 10m 1:21:xx, HM 1:46:53, M 4:16:45
May I ask, what did you go through Halfway in? Just curious.
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26-05-2017, 09:26   #28
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Just to add I used an amended version of P&D 55 for DCM last year and I'll probably do the same for Lanzarote. I do like the meno plan too.
What amended version of P&D do you have?
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26-05-2017, 09:37   #29
 
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May I ask, what did you go through Halfway in? Just curious.
In London I went through halfway in 1:58:38. At that point I really thought I was holding back. I did find London frustrating though, found it very hard to hold a consistent pace as it was so crowded.
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27-05-2017, 14:00   #30
 
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Quick question on the meno plan. Is there a particular reason the long runs are on a Sunday? I know HH IM2 was all about pace runs on Saturday followed by long on Sunday,but as this plan has the main sessions on Wednesdays I take it I can move the long run to Saturdays, followed by 4-5m easy on Sunday?
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