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Home heating automation

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    #1562
    ToxicPaddy
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,764 Mod ✭✭✭✭ToxicPaddy


    Posted a separate thread in the DIY forum but this might be a more suitable place.

    Hey guys,

    Just looking to pick your brains here.

    I recently moved into a new house (new build) which has a Dimplex A class heat pump system and controller. There is a Celect DRF1 wireless thermostat to control the temp on each floor.

    These appear to be the cheapest of the cheap thermostats on the market and we have had nothing but problems with the heating system from day 1, so I'm looking to upgrade the controllers and thermostat to something a bit more reliable, intelligent and accessible via wireless and an app.

    The main issue I am having is that the Celect thermostats only seem to measure the temp in one room and this room gets uncomfortably warm while the remaining rooms on each floor are lukewarm at best.

    What I would ideally like it to leave the A Class controller in place to look after hot water and be the controller for the heat pump outside and to replace the Celect thermostats with something like a Tado/Nest/Hive controller on each floor and this would work with smart radiator controllers I can install on each radiator on each floor so each room can be individually heated.

    It might be a bit over kill but its a large house over 3 floors with 19 radiators and we wont need every room to be the same temp across the board, only adjusting room temps when guests are coming.

    Has anyone any experience of doing this or can anyone make any recommendations for someone who I could take to about this?

    Want to get moving on this before my better half finds something else house related to spend the money on :pac: :D

    Thanks
    Tox


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    #1563
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,499 ✭✭✭deezell


    ToxicPaddy wrote: »
    Posted a separate thread in the DIY forum but this might be a more suitable place.

    Hey guys,

    Just looking to pick your brains here.

    I recently moved into a new house (new build) which has a Dimplex A class heat pump system and controller. There is a Celect DRF1 wireless thermostat to control the temp on each floor.

    These appear to be the cheapest of the cheap thermostats on the market and we have had nothing but problems with the heating system from day 1, so I'm looking to upgrade the controllers and thermostat to something a bit more reliable, intelligent and accessible via wireless and an app.

    The main issue I am having is that the Celect thermostats only seem to measure the temp in one room and this room gets uncomfortably warm while the remaining rooms on each floor are lukewarm at best.

    What I would ideally like it to leave the A Class controller in place to look after hot water and be the controller for the heat pump outside and to replace the Celect thermostats with something like a Tado/Nest/Hive controller on each floor and this would work with smart radiator controllers I can install on each radiator on each floor so each room can be individually heated.

    It might be a bit over kill but its a large house over 3 floors with 19 radiators and we wont need every room to be the same temp across the board, only adjusting room temps when guests are coming.

    Has anyone any experience of doing this or can anyone make any recommendations for someone who I could take to about this?

    Want to get moving on this before my better half finds something else house related to spend the money on :pac: :D

    Thanks
    Tox

    A new house costing way too much with heat pump heating, and they stick in two €20 euro stats. Reviews of these are bad, one reviewer stating they have a plus/minus 5° threshold before they switch on or off, rather like a bad bimetal mechanical stat.
    You can solve this bit easy enough with 2 Nest E, Hive, Netatmo or Drayton Wiser wireless stats. Just substitute the new stats receivers for the Celect receivers, and flog them on donedeal. As you would like to introduce individual radiator control also, you need kit that can handle TRVs. Nest currently doesn't have this in their product range. The others do, along with the Tado system, but Tado is limited to one wireless stat in a single system, the second would need to be wired back to where the zones current receiver is, (this would be the location of the heat pump controller/ heat exchanger and associated valves). To install two Tado wireless stats requires installing two Tado systems, effectively two 'homes' in the one house, a bit messy. Their logical model is to use TRVs if you want zones, with only a single receiver calling the boiler/heat pump for heating, and TRVs in every or most rooms creating zones
    The Drayton Wiser system is great value, TRVs are well priced, with a single receiver. Kit3 has two stats, plus optional HW control if the A class controller has a link for external HW requests.
    I'm more concerned about the imbalance in your system and the focus of the heating in the area containing the stat. When a zone stat calls for heat, the hot water should go to all radiators in that zone equally in the first instance. After this the system can be balanced by opening or closing the lockshied valves on the rads to increase or restrict the flow. It seems all your zone rads not in the stat area are turned down. Check the valves at both ends of the rads and open them up. Are any of these valves mechanical TRVs? They would need to be if you intend fitting smart TRVs, as the valve body needs to be TRV push pin type, not a screw down type. Tidy bit of plumbing bill to change 19 of these if not.
    Have you tried turning down the flow in the rad(s) located in the stat areas to push more heated water to the other rads? Just turn the valves right down, turn up the stat, see if the other zone rooms heat, then slowly introduce flow to the stat location rads a little at a time. Balancing is a bit trial and error, it helps if the non stat rooms have mechanical TRVs, so you can set their max temp, but it looks to me that the system was never balanced in the first place.


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    #1564
    xl500
    Registered Users Posts: 863 ✭✭✭xl500


    ToxicPaddy wrote: »
    Posted a separate thread in the DIY forum but this might be a more suitable place.

    Hey guys,

    Just looking to pick your brains here.

    I recently moved into a new house (new build) which has a Dimplex A class heat pump system and controller. There is a Celect DRF1 wireless thermostat to control the temp on each floor.

    These appear to be the cheapest of the cheap thermostats on the market and we have had nothing but problems with the heating system from day 1, so I'm looking to upgrade the controllers and thermostat to something a bit more reliable, intelligent and accessible via wireless and an app.

    The main issue I am having is that the Celect thermostats only seem to measure the temp in one room and this room gets uncomfortably warm while the remaining rooms on each floor are lukewarm at best.

    What I would ideally like it to leave the A Class controller in place to look after hot water and be the controller for the heat pump outside and to replace the Celect thermostats with something like a Tado/Nest/Hive controller on each floor and this would work with smart radiator controllers I can install on each radiator on each floor so each room can be individually heated.

    It might be a bit over kill but its a large house over 3 floors with 19 radiators and we wont need every room to be the same temp across the board, only adjusting room temps when guests are coming.

    Has anyone any experience of doing this or can anyone make any recommendations for someone who I could take to about this?

    Want to get moving on this before my better half finds something else house related to spend the money on :pac: :D

    Thanks
    Tox

    Evohome will also work for you separate zone control for up to 12zones


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    #1565
    ToxicPaddy
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,764 Mod ✭✭✭✭ToxicPaddy


    deezell wrote: »
    A new house costing way too much with heat pump heating, and they stick in two €20 euro stats. Reviews of these are bad, one reviewer stating they have a plus/minus 5° threshold before they switch on or off, rather like a bad bimetal mechanical stat.
    You can solve this bit easy enough with 2 Nest E, Hive, Netatmo or Drayton Wiser wireless stats. Just substitute the new stats receivers for the Celect receivers, and flog them on donedeal. As you would like to introduce individual radiator control also, you need kit that can handle TRVs. Nest currently doesn't have this in their product range. The others do, along with the Tado system, but Tado is limited to one wireless stat in a single system, the second would need to be wired back to where the zones current receiver is, (this would be the location of the heat pump controller/ heat exchanger and associated valves). To install two Tado wireless stats requires installing two Tado systems, effectively two 'homes' in the one house, a bit messy. Their logical model is to use TRVs if you want zones, with only a single receiver calling the boiler/heat pump for heating, and TRVs in every or most rooms creating zones
    The Drayton Wiser system is great value, TRVs are well priced, with a single receiver. Kit3 has two stats, plus optional HW control if the A class controller has a link for external HW requests.
    I'm more concerned about the imbalance in your system and the focus of the heating in the area containing the stat. When a zone stat calls for heat, the hot water should go to all radiators in that zone equally in the first instance. After this the system can be balanced by opening or closing the lockshied valves on the rads to increase or restrict the flow. It seems all your zone rads not in the stat area are turned down. Check the valves at both ends of the rads and open them up. Are any of these valves mechanical TRVs? They would need to be if you intend fitting smart TRVs, as the valve body needs to be TRV push pin type, not a screw down type. Tidy bit of plumbing bill to change 19 of these if not.
    Have you tried turning down the flow in the rad(s) located in the stat areas to push more heated water to the other rads? Just turn the valves right down, turn up the stat, see if the other zone rooms heat, then slowly introduce flow to the stat location rads a little at a time. Balancing is a bit trial and error, it helps if the non stat rooms have mechanical TRVs, so you can set their max temp, but it looks to me that the system was never balanced in the first place.

    Cheers for the info, I need to break it down and go through it all, so guess what I'll be doing tomorrow :D

    It turns out there was a problem with the system not pumping hot water evenly through the rads, an issue with the electronic valves apparently but the company which installed the system called over to the house and went through everything identifying issues and fixing them.

    The house got cold quickly due to the drop in temp outside and the system wasn't heating efficiently, so thats all sorted now. Going to run the heating full blast over the weekend for at 22C to get the the heat back in the house and regulate the temp in each room next week over the course of the whole week using the manual controls on each rad to see how things go.

    I checked all rads and they are all working and are properly hot which makes a nice change so lets see how we get on.

    Yeah I might get a couple of Hive or Tado thermostats and install them just to see how they go. The radiator smart valves will be something that is done over time and from reading what you posted, it doesn't make sense to have them in every room, maybe the bedrooms only which would greatly reduce the number required and the cost of installing them


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    #1566
    paulgrogan.eu
    Registered Users Posts: 289 ✭✭paulgrogan.eu


    xl500 wrote: »
    +1 for Evohome as stated above Evohome has an integrated stat also its a great system and easily does what you want as well as dedicated underfloor heating, control dedicated Electric Zones, opentherm no other system can do what it does and its a heating control designed as a heating control


    Thanks XL500. I'm guessing you have Evohome in your house by the pic, and if so, how have you found it? Also, are you an Apple smart device user, also if so, how have you found that integration to perform?


    Regards,


    Paul.


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    #1567
    xl500
    Registered Users Posts: 863 ✭✭✭xl500


    paulgrogan.eu wrote: »
    Thanks XL500. I'm guessing you have Evohome in your house by the pic, and if so, how have you found it? Also, are you an Apple smart device user, also if so, how have you found that integration to perform?


    Regards,


    Paul.

    Yes I have evohome for the last few years I find it really great it is designed from the ground up to be a heating control system can cater for most scenarios

    If you have zone valves no problem if you have electric zones no problem if you have underfloor heating no problem if you want opentherm control no problem if you want individual radiator control no problem if you want remote control via app no problem

    One problem and this is common to all systems that use smart rad valves they can be a little noisy for bedrooms

    Biggest problem with Evohome is people tinkering with it if its left alone to learn your house characteristics then it is absoulutely brilliant system expensive but i love it

    I am not an apple user android all the way but I use Alexa and it controls Evohome no problem ie "Alexa set Living Room 21 Degrees"

    Also the Evohome Remote App is very good

    Loads of discussion here

    https://www.automatedhome.co.uk/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?13-Heating-Control&


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    #1568
    WealthyB
    Registered Users Posts: 423 ✭✭WealthyB


    Hoping someone can help with this please? I'm lost, I don't even understand the basics of boilers and plumbing :(

    I'd be delighted if there was an installer who could quote for the install, and explain to me how it all works.

    My current Setup is:
    - Boiler Model: VOKERA MUYNUTE 24 SE
    - Wired Controller: cTc Eziprog 3-24/7
    - This controls 2 Zones: Upstairs/downstairs and a 3rd Channel for Hot Water
    - There are no existing room Thermostats
    - Only heating is Radiators throughout the house, no underfloor heating etc

    I purchased the following on Black Friday sales:
    - Tado Smart Thermostat V3+ Starter Kit with Hot Water Control + Thermostat + Extension Kit + Internet Bridge
    - Tado Smart Radiator Thermostats x 8

    Tado have (edit: updated) said:
    - I need to merge my 3 channel programmer into a 2 channel one so the extension kit can fit. This must be done by a skilled sparks.
    - but previously they said I could use the kit as it was, but only the radiator thermostats.

    If anyone has any recommendations, I'm completely lost and I can't believe I can't find anyone who can install this for me.
    Been searching on Google all day for anyone. Will end up sending all the kit back and getting a refund at this rate :(

    Thanks!


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    #1569
    bonnieprince
    Registered Users Posts: 567 ✭✭✭bonnieprince


    Having a similar issue since moving over to Tado system

    I have replaced the upstairs and downstairs thermostats with Tado versions.
    Tried installing the Extension kit but Tado's online setup guide prevented me from going ahead and had to wait for support to get back to me.

    Seemingly my Sauter T37 Programmer is a triple relay controller and the Extension kit is only dual relay. They have offered a voucher if I return the kit.

    A bit annoyed as I wanted to replace all the old kit and have something more discrete.

    Is there any other option such as moving HW zone onto its own relay and using the Ext kit for the two other zones?
    I have an old style immersion timer installed as well for manual control of HW.

    Any ideas or help would be appreciated.


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    #1570
    Scolly
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭Scolly


    Has anyone got something which shows the temperature of the hot water in the cylinder?

    Current setup I have 4 zones

    Extension is 1 zone
    Hot water is 2 zone
    Both of these are on Google Nest

    Upstairs is 3 zone
    Old downstairs 4 zone
    These are running on Drayton wiser

    All can be controlled via Alexa routines and schedules

    Is there anything available at present which could be added to the cylinder to see the hot water temperature, I have it running in a schedule on the nest but often times it is cold because of showers constantly running and then it is boosted on the nest thermostat several times when the water is already hot by wife and teenagers


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    #1571
    Dr.Winston O'Boogie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,810 ✭✭✭Dr.Winston O'Boogie


    Hi all, looking to get two Nest thermostats installed (need two as there are dual heating zones in the house).

    Would a traditional sparks do this installation? Any idea of the cost they would charge?

    Also at the moment we have a thermostat on the ground floor (not a smart thermo). We can heat up the hot water only, the bottom floor only, or the top floor only (or all 3 at same time if we want). If we were to get the nest can it also heat up only the water for example?


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    #1572
    xl500
    Registered Users Posts: 863 ✭✭✭xl500


    Scolly wrote: »
    Has anyone got something which shows the temperature of the hot water in the cylinder?

    Current setup I have 4 zones

    Extension is 1 zone
    Hot water is 2 zone
    Both of these are on Google Nest

    Upstairs is 3 zone
    Old downstairs 4 zone
    These are running on Drayton wiser

    All can be controlled via Alexa routines and schedules

    Is there anything available at present which could be added to the cylinder to see the hot water temperature, I have it running in a schedule on the nest but often times it is cold because of showers constantly running and then it is boosted on the nest thermostat several times when the water is already hot by wife and teenagers

    Evohome controls hot water and shows temp of cylinder


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    #1573
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,499 ✭✭✭deezell


    bonnieprince wrote: »
    Having a similar issue since moving over to Tado system

    I have replaced the upstairs and downstairs thermostats with Tado versions.
    Tried installing the Extension kit but Tado's online setup guide prevented me from going ahead and had to wait for support to get back to me.

    Seemingly my Sauter T37 Programmer is a triple relay controller and the Extension kit is only dual relay. They have offered a voucher if I return the kit.

    A bit annoyed as I wanted to replace all the old kit and have something more discrete.

    Is there any other option such as moving HW zone onto its own relay and using the Ext kit for the two other zones?
    I have an old style immersion timer installed as well for manual control of HW.

    Any ideas or help would be appreciated.
    The two wires in stats will directly replace your old stats and the timer function for the T37. CH zones. You can use the ext kit HW control in place of the third HW relay of the T37, simply disconnect this zone from the Sauter and divert it to the HW terminal of the kit. The ext kit also has a CH connection for the main or first Tado stat paired to it, this would allow wireless connection of this stat if required, but as you have it wired in place already, it's not required. If you leave the T37 in situ, simply set the 2 CH zones to always on, the Tados will take care of the timing from now on. If you wish to remove it altogether and replace with the ext kit, connect the HW Switched Live to the ext kit as descibed, and connect the two CH SLs to the permanent Live in. These SLs go to the Tados which switch their zones.


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    #1574
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,499 ✭✭✭deezell


    Scolly wrote: »
    Has anyone got something which shows the temperature of the hot water in the cylinder?

    Current setup I have 4 zones

    Extension is 1 zone
    Hot water is 2 zone
    Both of these are on Google Nest

    Upstairs is 3 zone
    Old downstairs 4 zone
    These are running on Drayton wiser

    All can be controlled via Alexa routines and schedules

    Is there anything available at present which could be added to the cylinder to see the hot water temperature, I have it running in a schedule on the nest but often times it is cold because of showers constantly running and then it is boosted on the nest thermostat several times when the water is already hot by wife and teenagers
    You should fit a manual thermostat to the HW cylinder (already there maybe?). Then you can set longer schedules for HW, the cylinder stat will cut the boiler when it reaches target, and bring it back on when wife and teens over-indulge in the shower. Assuming your cylinder is a modern well insulated one, there's little need or saving in timing the HW, just let the cylinder stat keep it topped up to the cylinder set temperature on it's dial, typically 55-65°.


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    #1575
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,499 ✭✭✭deezell


    Dr.Winston O'Boogie wrote: »
    Hi all, looking to get two Nest thermostats installed (need two as there are dual heating zones in the house).

    Would a traditional sparks do this installation? Any idea of the cost they would charge?

    Also at the moment we have a thermostat on the ground floor (not a smart thermo). We can heat up the hot water only, the bottom floor only, or the top floor only (or all 3 at same time if we want). If we were to get the nest can it also heat up only the water for example?
    Yes. Either nest relay box can control 1 CH and 1 HW zone. The cheaper Nest E just controls a CH zone, so a standard nest stat and a Nest E will control 2 CH and 1 HW.


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    #1576
    reignschaos
    Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭reignschaos


    Evening all, just wondering has anyone purchased the new tado App, I see they have a discount? If so, does it have all the features of the old app and is it worth the upgrade?

    I have version 1 of the app, so I can pay the one time upgrade price and keep all the old geo features?


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    #1577
    sekond
    Registered Users Posts: 264 ✭✭sekond


    Any suggestions for a basic heating automation for a not-very-technically inclined older person.

    My mum has an old, but perfectly functioning gas boiler - no zones, no seperate hot water. Any time she needs to change the timing, she has to wait for me, or another relative to come to do it for her.

    We have a climote, that does us perfectly, and she quite likes the idea of being able to put the heating on from her phone when she is on the way home. But that's probably as technical as she would be able to manage. (She has an app for her alarm that she can use, so she'd be happy enough doing that).

    Potential alexa integration would be a bonus, as I'm thinking of giving her an echo dot for Christmas (she likes asking ours to play radio stations etc)


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    #1578
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,499 ✭✭✭deezell


    sekond wrote: »
    Any suggestions for a basic heating automation for a not-very-technically inclined older person.
    My mum....
    .....She has an app for her alarm that she can use.....
    ......I'm thinking of giving her an echo dot for Christmas (she likes asking ours to play radio stations etc)

    I think you are underestimating her technical ability. That could be construed as Ageism and Elder abuse in this PC world!
    Suitably chastised, I would recommend a Nest, Hive, Netatmo or Drayton wiser wireless smart stat. Check if the first 2 can be got free from her gas/electric provider, or by changing providers. You say she has no seperate HW, does she have to heat the rads to get HW? Either way, if she just needs remote timing or boost for the heating, any of these will do the trick, and all bar the Netatmo can have a HW relay on the receiver, allowing for a gravity mode system which would heat HW only if the existing system is already configured to suit, or with a minimum of plumbing required.


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    #1579
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,499 ✭✭✭deezell


    reignschaos wrote: »
    Evening all, just wondering has anyone purchased the new tado App, I see they have a discount? If so, does it have all the features of the old app and is it worth the upgrade?

    I have version 1 of the app, so I can pay the one time upgrade price and keep all the old geo features?

    Good question, and if you have two or more in the household with the old app, do you just pay once for all phone app upgrades?


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    #1580
    sekond
    Registered Users Posts: 264 ✭✭sekond


    deezell wrote: »
    I think you are underestimating her technical ability. That could be construed as Ageism and Elder abuse in this PC world!
    Suitably chastised, I would recommend a Nest, Hive, Netatmo or Drayton wiser wireless smart stat..

    As I'm her on-call tech support, I'm really not! If it's set up and working ok, she's fine. Any dramatic learning curve (like a switch to zones) or issues, and she cant manage too well. But she does like the idea of technical solutions, mostly.

    I'll take a look at the Nest or Hive from her provider to start with - it really is just boost and changing times that she would need. (And I suspect that mostly it would just be the boost).

    She heats the water via the rads (I think she may also have an immersion too, but like a good Irish Mammy she only uses it in an emergency)


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    #1581
    savemejebus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,523 ✭✭✭savemejebus


    sekond wrote: »

    it really is just boost and changing times that she would need. (And I suspect that mostly it would just be the boost).

    AFAIK NEST has no boost function but hive does, as does the Drayton wiser I think


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    #1582
    reignschaos
    Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭reignschaos


    It says Pay only once to upgrade all members of your Home to tado

    They made the point in using bold too :-)

    If my memory is correct there was a few features like turning on the heat ad-hoc and having the option how to turn it off was missing from the new app that existed in the old app ie the 3 options of next schedule, in X minutes or keep on.

    Or perhaps I should ask, how are people finding the new app? and do you recommend it?

    @Deezell as an aside, since your help last year, my tado set up has been working perfectly.


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    #1583
    kaisersose77
    Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭kaisersose77


    I have a 2 zone and hot water setup with nest. If i wanted to go with tado setup instead how would that work (2 x thermostats and 1 extension kit?) and how do the tado thermostats actually control the heating if the nest heatlinks are removed?


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    #1584
    Krombopulos Michael
    Registered Users Posts: 1,088 ✭✭✭Krombopulos Michael


    savemejebus wrote: »
    AFAIK NEST has no boost function but hive does, as does the Drayton wiser I think

    Nest can now boost with the app at least. Not sure if the actual stat can do it


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    #1585
    Scolly
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭Scolly


    The boost function is for Hot Water only not heat

    Good thread to follow here but doesn't seem as if that feature is going to be available anytime soon

    https://support.google.com/googlenest/thread/14209611?hl=en


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    #1586
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 7,499 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    They wont add the function because they want it to be a learning device (apparently)


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    #1587
    Krombopulos Michael
    Registered Users Posts: 1,088 ✭✭✭Krombopulos Michael


    BrownFinger wrote: »
    They wont add the function because they want it to be a learning device (apparently)

    The learning went right out the door for my nest after a few days and I just have it set to a schedule now.


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    #1588
    BoardsMember
    Registered Users Posts: 4,434 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    Krombopulos Michael wrote: »
    The learning went right out the door for my nest after a few days and I just have it set to a schedule now.

    Yeah me too.

    Also, one annoying thing is that you can't boost hot water with Google Home.


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    #1589
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,499 ✭✭✭deezell


    reignschaos wrote: »
    It says Pay only once to upgrade all members of your Home to tado

    They made the point in using bold too :-)......

    ........@Deezell as an aside, since your help last year, my tado set up has been working perfectly.

    Wish I could say the same about meself.
    Happy Christmas to all here.
    If you're a heathen, Happy Xmas or Happy Holidays. * Happy Holidays is a trade mark of the Coca Cola Company. All rights etc.....
    If you're still offended, fe*k off!!
    😀


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    #1590
    bonnieprince
    Registered Users Posts: 567 ✭✭✭bonnieprince


    Thanks deezell for all your help on here, it is much appreciated!

    Happy Ho Ho Holidays!


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    #1591
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,265 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Scolly wrote: »
    The boost function is for Hot Water only not heat

    Good thread to follow here but doesn't seem as if that feature is going to be available anytime soon

    https://support.google.com/googlenest/thread/14209611?hl=en

    You can’t boost heat.... you can increase the set temperature.

    Boosting heat isn’t logical ? Smart thermostats are based on desired temperature not on, an on or off mentality


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