Stobart air liquidated- the end of Irish domestic aviation?

Deatr · 15-06-2021 7:30am

Tenger wrote: »

While a lifeline to the 480 Stobart staff would be a positive thing there is the risk/fear that a predatory interloper could take advantage and impose onerous conditions on staff still reeling from the shock.

Good for the customer in the immediate term. But no great longterm for anyone.

100% correct. From what I understand and I hope I’m wrong the T’s & C’s that were going to be offered to staff next year were to be quite lower than what was on offer in STK. I can only imagine what they will be now.

California Dreamer · 15-06-2021 7:37am

Jack1985 wrote: »

As above I'm not aware Emerald are guaranteeing any such opportunity’s, one would hope skilled professionals suited to the role will be selected. There are a lot of people in the market at this time.

RTÉ Now also referring to the news from Emerald here; https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0614/1227952-troubled-aviation-sector/

FYI, I don't come on here to post fairy stories, so I'm not sure what the attitude is all about in that post.

I never said that Emerald were guaranteeing any jobs to anyone but if you look at the current make up of Emerald it does have former Stobart people so it would stand to reason that if you want a ready workforce who are short ops, atr experienced you look at the former employees and possible friends who recently lost their jobs.

All I did was ask you to provide a source and you went on the defence.

California Dreamer · 15-06-2021 7:42am

L1011 wrote: »

I don't think people are using this forum as a jobs board.

In the absence of any concrete information people will look and dissect any rumours/news/whispers that they can.

15-06-2021 8:40am

Well, the usual “Scrap the PSO” article has emerged. Surprised it took this long.

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/regional-woes-are-flights-to-kerry-and-donegal-really-worth-7m-a-year-40539465.html

..But with the subvention costing €7m a year and the two routes having carried virtually no passengers during the pandemic, the decision to quickly find a replacement operator smacks of political opportunism rather than any sensible use of public funds to maintain regional connectivity.

cml387 · 15-06-2021 9:22am

Are this "Emerald" any relation to the old IOM based Emerald? Used to fly HS748's out of Ronaldsway?

Stovepipe · 15-06-2021 10:13am

LiamaDelta wrote: »

The motorway was the main reason, the railway has always been there albeit with some improvements more recently. Being able to get a bus from Dublin to Galway in 2.5 hours made the air route unnecessary. Noel Dempsey cut the routes at the time, not Leo.
Kerry and Donegal are not connected by motorway so still retained the PSO. The flight still offers good advantage over the rail link which takes nearly 4 hours.

...and it wasn't helped by the population of Galway staying away in droves. The airport couldn't accept anything but turboprops and small jets and the public wanted Ryanair 737s but they couldn't use it,it had no ILS approach so if the weather was bad, aircraft had to divert to Knock and the motorway killed it. Carrickfin in Donegal is in the same boat,because it is in the wrong location and Donegal people tend to use Derry or Enniskillen to fly out of. Apart from that, the Stobart staff are wary of Emerald because they know that Ts and Cs will be worse than Stobart ever were. Sad as it is to say, a lot of those staff will leave aviation for good.

mr.anonymous · 15-06-2021 10:42am

cml387 wrote: »

Are this "Emerald" any relation to the old IOM based Emerald? Used to fly HS748's out of Ronaldsway?

Not related.
Emerald were set up by the owner of Dublin Aerospace, who used to run Aer Lingus Commuter in the 90s when Willie Walsh was in EI. Years later Walsh was head of IAG and one of his airlines was looking for a partner, so Conor McCarthy stepped in.

Likely that Emerald will cherry pick the best of the Stobart crew and hire them on lower pay, T&Cs etc. They won't have any leverage until industry is recovering.

Tenger · 15-06-2021 11:17am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well, the usual “Scrap the PSO” article has emerged. Surprised it took this long.

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/regional-woes-are-flights-to-kerry-and-donegal-really-worth-7m-a-year-40539465.html

€7 million a year versus building a modern motorway to fully connect Dublin and Kerry/Donegal. (obviously we have motorway part of the route)

Tenger · 15-06-2021 11:19am

California Dreamer wrote: »

In the absence of any concrete information people will look and dissect any rumours/news/whispers that they can.

I see your point. But it's not as if its a new member trying to gain reputation.
Jack1985 has been pretty reliable for info in the past.*
Obviously no info is 100% until we see a press release.

*(Going so far as to point out a mistake by a mod. We really should create a rule to stop that behaviour.........)

California Dreamer · 15-06-2021 11:39am

Tenger wrote: »

I see your point. But it's not as if its a new member trying to gain reputation.
Jack1985 has been pretty reliable for info in the past.*
Obviously no info is 100% until we see a press release.

*(Going so far as to point out a mistake by a mod. We really should create a rule to stop that behaviour.........)

Very true, Jacks information in the past has been quite good and accurate.

The_Wanderer · 15-06-2021 11:53am

theguzman wrote: »

4.5hrs from Tralee to Dublin on a train isn't acceptable in Kerry anymore.

4.5 hours? A quick search of the timetable reveals the fastest service Tralee to Heuston is:

Fastest: 3 hours 41 minutes.
Slowest: 4 hours 1 minute.

andrewfaulk · 15-06-2021 1:31pm

The_Wanderer wrote: »

4.5 hours? A quick search of the timetable reveals the fastest service Tralee to Heuston is:

Fastest: 3 hours 41 minutes.
Slowest: 4 hours 1 minute.

Also, that is to Tralee, so allow 20-25mins travel to from Farranfore and it looks better.. then add 45mins from Dublin Airport to Dublin City centre versus 15mins on the LUAS from Heuston and the time savings are not nearly as significant as some are suggesting..

And there could be €3.5m of PSO money floating around, which is small change in railway terms but could be used for some targeted line speed improvements

Cookiemunster · 15-06-2021 1:33pm

Eamonn Ryan was on Newstalk this morning saying the that they were looking at offers for a temp replacement operator for 7 months until a new permenant operator can be put in place. He didn't sound like a man who's about to kill the Dublin to Kerry PSO.

andrewfaulk · 15-06-2021 1:35pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well, the usual “Scrap the PSO” article has emerged. Surprised it took this long.

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/regional-woes-are-flights-to-kerry-and-donegal-really-worth-7m-a-year-40539465.html

€10.5million of tax payers funds essentially wasted in the past 18 months, there should be articles and scrutiny.. At the least the routes should have been suspended..

1123heavy · 15-06-2021 2:03pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Eamonn Ryan was on Newstalk this morning saying the that they were looking at offers for a temp replacement operator for 7 months until a new permenant operator can be put in place. He didn't sound like a man who's about to kill the Dublin to Kerry PSO.

Irish government consider giving an Estonian carrier who received a 30 Million Euro Estonian government bailout the Irish PSO.

This takes jobs off an Irish airline who received 0 Euro in Irish government support and gives them to an Estonian airline who were supported by their government.

Irish jobs to Estonian crews.
Irish PSO grant to Estonian airline.
Irish taxpaying employees in favour of Estonian taxpaying employees.

This is disgusting and the top brass of government should be summoned to explain their actions IN FULL.

andrewfaulk · 15-06-2021 2:30pm

1123heavy wrote: »

Irish government consider giving an Estonian carrier who received a 30 Million Euro Estonian government bailout the Irish PSO.

This takes jobs off an Irish airline who received 0 Euro in Irish government support and gives them to an Estonian airline who were supported by their government.

Irish jobs to Estonian crews.
Irish PSO grant to Estonian airline.
Irish taxpaying employees in favour of Estonian taxpaying employees.

This is disgusting and the top brass of government should be summoned to explain their actions IN FULL.

Well spoken, great way to throw your hat in the ring for transport spokesperson for the Irish Freedom party/Irexit party

Masala · 15-06-2021 5:12pm

andrewfaulk wrote: »

€10.5million of tax payers funds essentially wasted in the past 18 months, there should be articles and scrutiny.. At the least the routes should have been suspended..

What about suspending the Trains or the Buses or the Luas or the Dart in past 18 months.... people in Mayo / Donegal / Kerry / Leitrim etc etc didn't get much value on using Dublin Bus over the last 18 months ????

Shamrockj · 15-06-2021 5:26pm

Masala wrote: »

What about suspending the Trains or the Buses or the Luas or the Dart in past 18 months.... people in Mayo / Donegal / Kerry / Leitrim etc etc didn't get much value on using Dublin Bus over the last 18 months ????

Exactly. Very little if any public services have got much use over the previous 18 months. The PSO has been in operation for a very long time but only now people are questioning it’s value, interesting.

bk · 15-06-2021 6:25pm

Masala wrote: »

What about suspending the Trains or the Buses or the Luas or the Dart in past 18 months.... people in Mayo / Donegal / Kerry / Leitrim etc etc didn't get much value on using Dublin Bus over the last 18 months ????

Well first of all, Irish Rail, Bus Eireann and Dublin Coach all operate to Kerry, etc. So they got their value from those.

Also, Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann, etc. all greatly reduced their schedules over the last 18 months to match the greatly reduced demand.

It wouldn't be a stretch to suggest that if demand was greatly reduced then the schedule should have been reduced too on these flights to similarly match demand.

Shamrockj wrote: »

Exactly. Very little if any public services have got much use over the previous 18 months. The PSO has been in operation for a very long time but only now people are questioning it’s value, interesting.

People have long questioned these PSO services, far before Covid, it isn't a new topic for this forum.

L1011 · 15-06-2021 6:27pm

A twice daily service can only be reduced to daily before it ceases being worth operating. That happened at times

Tenger · 15-06-2021 7:02pm

andrewfaulk wrote: »

Well spoken, great way to throw your hat in the ring for transport spokesperson for the Irish Freedom party/Irexit party

I don’t think we need to be tarring anyone with that label.
Attack the post rather than the poster

gordongekko · 15-06-2021 7:16pm

andrewfaulk wrote: »

€10.5million of tax payers funds essentially wasted in the past 18 months, there should be articles and scrutiny.. At the least the routes should have been suspended..

A contract is a contract. We as a country need to honour our contracts.

Tenger · 15-06-2021 7:33pm

andrewfaulk wrote: »

€10.5million of tax payers funds essentially wasted in the past 18 months, there should be articles and scrutiny.. At the least the routes should have been suspended..

gordongekko wrote: »

A contract is a contract. We as a country need to honour our contracts.

I doubt that the contract has a clause to allow suspension of payments. If the Govt had of stopped the payments Stobart may have collapsed earlier. From lack of revenue and/or no interested investor.

And as pointed out above the frequency of flights was reduced. Im not sure but were these flight used for postal service? Which would make it an essential service.

Locker10a · 16-06-2021 11:53am

andrewfaulk wrote: »

.. At the least the routes should have been suspended..

They are essential transport for many, for example those needing to travel from Donegal to Dublin for cancer treatments etc

16-06-2021 8:25pm

In a perfect world, someone would step in, finish off the airfield in Clifden & return the Galway PSO to there using Twin Otters. Motorway to Galway makes flying it unfeasible, but the further hour & a half drive beyond Galway city (presuming no snarlups at the bottleneck) would make it worthwhile. A bonus would be that it’d compete with Donegal & Kerry for the most beautiful approach to fly…

Stovepipe · 17-06-2021 3:55pm

The airfields at Clifden and Inishbofin are now under the hands of private individuals but are not yet operational,despite being ready for a few years now. On a side note,all of the regionals are used by private aircraft regularly,up to and including business jets, Waterford being a case in point. Waterford and Sligo both host aircraft maintenance companies and flying clubs/schools. Sligo host a weekend market and Waterford has it's associated business park. All of the regionals are routinely used by the SAR helis and the Air Corps,so they have a State function as well as a public function.In addition, regionals like Galway and Carrickfin have been used for cargo flights to carry fresh seafood to the UK and Europe. Knock has even got an aircraft scrapping firm working there, so regionals do have their uses.

17-06-2021 5:00pm

Aer Lingus update: https://www.aerlingus.com/support/flight-disruption-information/

Interesting to note…

Aer Lingus is ready to operate the Dublin / Kerry route, subject to an appropriate PSO arrangement being put in place. Aer Lingus is also actively exploring options that would enable the provision of a Dublin / Donegal service. Customers scheduled to travel on the Belfast City / East Midlands route before 27th June are being offered alternative flights

goingnowhere · 17-06-2021 5:38pm

Latest route arrangements

Operations by Aer Lingus

Belfast - Edinburgh
Belfast - Manchester
Belfast - Birmingham
Dublin - Manchester
Dublin - Edinburgh
Dublin - Glasgow

Operations by BA CityFlyer until at least 31st August 2021

Belfast - Leeds Bradford
Belfast - Exeter
Belfast - Glasgow (starts 2nd August 2021)
Belfast - Newquay (starts 3rd July 2021)

goingnowhere · 17-06-2021 5:47pm

Whoever gets the PSO routes will need to cut a deal with EI for interlining traffic to maximise passenger numbers so its a lot easier for EI to run the show. The previous arrangements the only thing different was flying ATR and not Airbus really, just like in the US. A separate operator, would mean rechecking bags, terminal changes, separate check in, separate website etc

If Stobart was operating independently, all the passengers would be stranded, but as it was under EI's brand there is an unprecedented effort to have a workable alternative (and slot sit to block anyone else coming in). We are in the era of weird airline economics, while undoubtedly EI is losing money running the regional routes with a A320, they are losing money with the aircraft sitting on the ground anyway.

EI is due a penalty fee from the contract also which could be significant

They should have kept to A319's....

cson · 17-06-2021 6:59pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

EI is due a penalty fee from the contract also which could be significant.

Good luck getting that from a liquidated company. Even if they're a preferred creditor they'll be behind Revenue which means there'll typically be feck all left over as companies in Stobarts situation usually delay paying taxes etc to aid cash flow.

Stobart air liquidated- the end of Irish domestic aviation?

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