First human traffickers convicted.

12-06-2021 11:54am

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

I disagree , prohibition on something like prostitution is exactly what drives it into the hands of criminals who will traffic and exploit to maximise profit.

Legalise it, strictly control it, monitor it, make health screening mandatory. Whilst that will not create a perfect industry it will improve it over the current status quo.

The government needs to stop thinking of ways of taxing ordinary people , they need to get inventive and take the billions that are currently flowing into the hands of drug dealers and prostitution rings and make it legal enterprise and tax it accordingly. Its going to happen anyway it might as well be pulled out of the shadows and regulated.

I'm pretty sure it's been well established that legalising prostitution has no or a worsening effect on trafficking.

Here's one article. There's plenty more.

https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-prostitution-increase-human-trafficking/

Mimon · 12-06-2021 12:02pm

Vestiapx wrote: »

I don't agree. The customers may not be aware that the women are unwilling participants. There was a thread in the ask me anything I read recently where a woman stayed that she made a good living as a sex worker and she seems empowered in the current situation which is without regulation how is a customer supposed to differentiate between an unwilling participant and a willing one ?

A large proportion of prostitutes won't be willingly doing it so or having mental issues/addiction problems etc has lead them down this path.

The empowered prostitute you describe would be very rare.

No one with a conscience can justify using prostitutes.

Outkast_IRE · 12-06-2021 12:04pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm pretty sure it's been well established that legalising prostitution has no or a worsening effect on trafficking.

Here's one article. There's plenty more.

https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-prostitution-increase-human-trafficking/

Interesting, but the case studies seem very limited in that germany seems to be the only useful data, with Sweden and Denmark data not being fully available at the time of writing.

The same article does point out though that there are clear benefits to legalisation , such as a significant improvement in conditions.

Mimon · 12-06-2021 12:04pm

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

I disagree , prohibition on something like prostitution is exactly what drives it into the hands of criminals who will traffic and exploit to maximise profit.

Legalise it, strictly control it, monitor it, make health screening mandatory. Whilst that will not create a perfect industry it will improve it over the current status quo.

The government needs to stop thinking of ways of taxing ordinary people , they need to get inventive and take the billions that are currently flowing into the hands of drug dealers and prostitution rings and make it legal enterprise and tax it accordingly. Its going to happen anyway it might as well be pulled out of the shadows and regulated.

Even in the Netherlands where it is regulated you still have the same issues with trafficking, women being forced into it and preyed on by pimps.

Signore Fancy Pants · 12-06-2021 12:08pm

Overheal wrote: »

Are we dehumanizing brown people again today. I know they're criminals, and great they were convicted for such a horrible thing, but animals? Cast an awful light about what you are really looking to stir up with this thread OP.

These indentured servitude schemes are not new - in Colonial era America it used to be an acceptable legal practice. Should never be allowed to happen again of course, but I hope you're not trying to act as though this type of plot is a Nigerian creation.

What an off topic post and complete nonsense.

Surprised it's still here.

Pawwed Rig · 12-06-2021 12:18pm

Mimon wrote: »

A large proportion of prostitutes won't be willingly doing it so or having mental issues/addiction problems etc has lead them down this path.

The empowered prostitute you describe would be very rare.

No one with a conscience can justify using prostitutes.

I would be interested in seeing some unbiased research on that.

If what you are saying is true would seem all the more reason to legalise and regulate the practise. It seems hypocritical, to me, for us to vote for bodily autonomy on one hand in the abortion referendum but deny bodily autonomy to sex workers.

It is not surprising that we see a poorly run industry with bad practises when we leave the running of the industry to the scummiest individuals in the society.

elperello · 12-06-2021 12:27pm

Gatling wrote: »

Strip them of any rights to stay here and send them back to Nigeria

I think a sentence in the upper end of the range applicable to the offence followed by deportation would be the better deterrent.

Mimon · 12-06-2021 12:45pm

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I would be interested in seeing some unbiased research on that.

If what you are saying is true would seem all the more reason to legalise and regulate the practise. It seems hypocritical, to me, for us to vote for bodily autonomy on one hand in the abortion referendum but deny bodily autonomy to sex workers.

It is not surprising that we see a poorly run industry with bad practises when we leave the running of the industry to the scummiest individuals in the society.

I know it is only one example but I knew a Russian prostitute in the Netherlands and she was a serious alcoholic and controlled by her German pimp.

Also knew a couple who would volunteer in a charity that would help prostitutes, they reckoned a lot of them even in a regulated environment in NL would not be doing it willingly.

biko · 12-06-2021 12:53pm

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

... would seem all the more reason to legalise and regulate the practise.

Hell no.

Pawwed Rig · 12-06-2021 1:10pm

Mimon wrote: »

I know it is only one example but I knew a Russian prostitute in the Netherlands and she was a serious alcoholic and controlled by her German pimp.

Also knew a couple who would volunteer in a charity that would help prostitutes, they reckoned a lot of them even in a regulated environment in NL would not be doing it willingly.

I have no doubt there are issues within the industry. The issue around coercion and control is a very difficult one to manage for example.

I wonder would a corporate model work where all the sex workers and security be employees of a company with all the rights that an employee has along with supports for the employees. This would remove the coercion element somewhat and would also eliminate the human trafficking element.

I haven't given the above much thought so probably needs a more in depth look but what is clear is that the current way the industry is run is not fit for purpose.

One thing we presumably can agree on is that it is impossible to get rid of the industry (until the sexy robots are invented

)

12-06-2021 1:33pm

Overheal wrote: »

Are we dehumanizing brown people again today. I know they're criminals, and great they were convicted for such a horrible thing, but animals? Cast an awful light about what you are really looking to stir up with this thread OP.

These indentured servitude schemes are not new - in Colonial era America it used to be an acceptable legal practice. Should never be allowed to happen again of course, but I hope you're not trying to act as though this type of plot is a Nigerian creation.

Where you in the thread talking about the dehumanisation of white people when similar was said about the scumbag Maurice Robinson, or is it only when it's said about black scumbags that you care?

AndrewJRenko · 12-06-2021 1:59pm

Gradius wrote: »

There's more than a few ngo's that are involved in people trafficking. Their salaries could easily be broken down "per person".

Just so happens to be legal for now.

If it is legal, then it's not trafficking, by definition.

gw80 · 12-06-2021 2:09pm

I wonder how many trafficked women and girls the irish navy have brought into Europe

Pawwed Rig · 12-06-2021 3:16pm

MkSavage wrote: »

Even though it would make life much safe for sex workers?

That is the problem in this country. The argument against is a moral one led by the church (Ruhama). Very little concern for the actual sex workers.
The goal is still to stop the activity even though that has been proved impossible over and over again

Signore Fancy Pants · 12-06-2021 3:32pm

gw80 wrote: »

I wonder how many trafficked women and girls the irish navy have brought into Europe

Almost every single person that manage to leave the shores of Libya/Tunisia has been subjected to human trafficking, that's generally how they get through the central Mediterranean migrant route. In almost all cases, trafficking ends at the shore. Some are even ****ed overboard by the traffickers.

The trafficking for the purpose of prostitution in Ireland by those means would be very very small. While I don't doubt the story, it would be the exception and not the rule. To be honest, it really doesn't add up.

Anyway, getting back to your comment, which the real purpose was to denigrate the humanitarian efforts of the Naval Service who were directed by the government to perform the task. Their responsibility is to get people out of the water alive and onto shore, irrespective of circumstance. Unless you believe that aiding vulnerable people in dire circumstances should not be done, and those crossing should simply be left to die. Well, good luck with that.

Ultimately, the responsibility for registering, vetting, detaining and deporting migrants lies with the authorities of the landing country, Italy or Malta.

For context, the real reason for migration from that area is because Libya was a failed state. While Ghaddafi ruled, the EU used to pay him Millions of $ per year to counter migration to Europe. Eventually the EU stopped, so then migration increased and Ghaddafi was now looking for Billions to stop it again.

Ultimately, irregular migration was happening, with or without EU Naval Asset involvement. NGO fleets were also there, so they would reach the EU no matter what.

All the Irish Naval service did was to try to reduce the deaths......while also having a limited anti-piracy mandate. Suggesting the are complicit in facilitating prostitution et al, is frankly being a c.unt.

1800_Ladladlad · 12-06-2021 4:48pm

I am completely baffled as to how she was able to get into Ireland using a fake passport? It makes you wonder as to the real numbers making the illegal journeys across Europe and into Ireland, or who or what else is being illegally imported into the country.

The woman took part in some sort of voodoo ceremony before leaving where she took an oath to the traffickers that were arranging the journey which she thought was for “legitimate work”. She was coerced. Or/and the family intimidated. I have read about this many times before regarding cases of human trafficking all around the EU. Including the promise "a land of milk and honey", which Ireland is not. In my honest opinion, I don't agree that the victims have a right to remain in Ireland and feel that should be repatriated.

According to a report by Europol on the trafficking and exploitation of underage victims, Nigerian gangs are highly organized and are were divided into cells, typically run by females who execute the core business recruitment and exploitation, they're known as “madams”, with men working in supporting them. Each cell earns “extremely high profits” from trafficking children into 12 EU countries, including Ireland, for prostitution.

The report shows southern EU countries, such as Italy and Spain, are the main entry points in the EU for trafficked Nigerians. The victims were aged between 15 & 17, though the reports document children aged 11-15 & some aged 6-10, and even under 5. The victims were frequently subjected to physical assaults and subsequently sexually exploited and were passed from trafficker to trafficker.

Just like 4 female victims, these victims swore oats via voodoo rituals and were often promised well-paid jobs. I do wonder if they were promised a land of milk and honey by the 'Madams'....

The annual Trafficking in Persons Report 2020, puts Ireland among the worst 3 performing countries in the EU when it comes to our approach to the prevention of the crime of trafficking in human beings. Ireland has not increased its efforts to actively combat trafficking since 2019 and the year before that.

"disorderly migration often leads to exploitation, human trafficking and tragedy."

Ireland needs to get its sh*t together.

ThunbergsAreGo · 12-06-2021 5:12pm

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

Almost every single person that manage to leave the shores of Libya/Tunisia has been subjected to human trafficking, that's generally how they get through the central Mediterranean migrant route. In almost all cases, trafficking ends at the shore. Some are even ****ed overboard by the traffickers.

The trafficking for the purpose of prostitution in Ireland by those means would be very very small. While I don't doubt the story, it would be the exception and not the rule. To be honest, it really doesn't add up.

Anyway, getting back to your comment, which the real purpose was to denigrate the humanitarian efforts of the Naval Service who were directed by the government to perform the task. Their responsibility is to get people out of the water alive and onto shore, irrespective of circumstance. Unless you believe that aiding vulnerable people in dire circumstances should not be done, and those crossing should simply be left to die. Well, good luck with that.

Ultimately, the responsibility for registering, vetting, detaining and deporting migrants lies with the authorities of the landing country, Italy or Malta.

For context, the real reason for migration from that area is because Libya was a failed state. While Ghaddafi ruled, the EU used to pay him Millions of $ per year to counter migration to Europe. Eventually the EU stopped, so then migration increased and Ghaddafi was now looking for Billions to stop it again.

Ultimately, irregular migration was happening, with or without EU Naval Asset involvement. NGO fleets were also there, so they would reach the EU no matter what.

All the Irish Naval service did was to try to reduce the deaths......while also having a limited anti-piracy mandate. Suggesting the are complicit in facilitating prostitution et al, is frankly being a c.unt.

Does it not seem a bit mental NGOs have fleets?

Sadler Peak · 12-06-2021 5:21pm

Gatling wrote: »

Strip them of any rights to stay here and send them back to Nigeria

Highly doubtful. House and welfare for life. All paid for by the Irish taxpayer. Followed by Irish citizenship and family reunification. I'd put money on it.

Signore Fancy Pants · 12-06-2021 5:38pm

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Does it not seem a bit mental NGOs have fleets?

Yes, its batsh1t crazy!

Lemon Davis lll · 12-06-2021 5:41pm

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

It seems hypocritical, to me, for us to vote for bodily autonomy on one hand in the abortion referendum but deny bodily autonomy to sex workers.

It seems the 'bodily autonomy' argument only holds sway, once women don't choose to do anything with their bodies that might fly in the face of third-wave feminist orthodoxy.

It's quite the irony, that long after the demise of the RCC in Ireland, those who pushed back against the power the church exerted over women's bodies should be pedalling the same 'saving women from themselves' bullsh1t.

Total hypocrisy.

AndrewJRenko · 12-06-2021 5:48pm

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Does it not seem a bit mental NGOs have fleets?

Would you prefer that more people drown?

AndrewJRenko · 12-06-2021 5:49pm

MkSavage wrote: »

Let's be honest, men are going to pay for sex. The male sex drive ensures that.
.

I have a male sex drive. I've never paid for sex, and I'm pretty sure I'm never going to pay for sex.

Lemon Davis lll · 12-06-2021 6:17pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Would you prefer that more people drown?

I'd prefer that traffickers weren't actively aided and abetted in their nefarious endeavours by NGO's

12-06-2021 6:21pm

Lemon Davis lll wrote: »

It seems the 'bodily autonomy' argument only holds sway, once women don't choose to do anything with their bodies that might fly in the face of third-wave feminist orthodoxy.

Well the third wave is over. The fourth wave believes the exact opposite.

AndrewJRenko · 12-06-2021 6:28pm

Lemon Davis lll wrote: »

I'd prefer that traffickers weren't actively aided and abetted in their nefarious endeavours by NGO's

And by "aided and abetted" you mean "rescued from serious risk of drowning".

Lemon Davis lll · 12-06-2021 6:41pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

And by "aided and abetted" you mean "rescued from serious risk of drowning".

Many foolhardy migrants still drown, so no.

They're flung out to sea following consultation and coordination between traffickers and NGO's.

joseywhales · 12-06-2021 6:47pm

Vestiapx wrote: »

I don't agree. The customers may not be aware that the women are unwilling participants. There was a thread in the ask me anything I read recently where a woman stayed that she made a good living as a sex worker and she seems empowered in the current situation which is without regulation how is a customer supposed to differentiate between an unwilling participant and a willing one ?

Yeah you can't tell, that's why you don't pay for it.

Galwayguy35 · 12-06-2021 7:25pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Yeah, no other agency here or abroad ever falls for a faked passport

Well no actually they shouldn't, its their job to spot the fakes.

Galwayguy35 · 12-06-2021 7:35pm

MkSavage wrote: »

How do you spot a genuine passport that someone has fraudulently obtained?

Well how the hell am I supposed to know I don't work in the immigration departmant at the airport.

We're supposed to have people trained to spot these things and keep our borders safe from this kind of thing but this doesn't seem to be happening.

12-06-2021 7:40pm

MkSavage wrote: »

How do you spot a genuine passport that someone has fraudulently obtained?

Why can't we use facial recognition to match the user with the official document in a database, would be impossible to fake. Or do we still have immigration authorities just glancing at passports and waving people through?

12-06-2021 7:45pm

MkSavage wrote: »

I believe the problem is they create a fake identity and then succeed in getting a genuine passport. Need to stop them getting a passport in the first place.

Ya, seems very strange to me. If we scanned a person going through immigration using facial recognition and matched that photo to the official photo maintained by the immigration authorities in a passport database it would be impossible to use a fake passport (unless they managed to hack the database before hand and inserted the fake user) To me in this day and age it seems such an easy thing to stamp out.

And put in a comprehensive policy in place to get entered into the system in the first place.

12-06-2021 7:55pm

MkSavage wrote: »

You don't understand. Their real image is already on the database. They created a fake identity and they tricked the state into giving them a passport. There is nothing to stop a Nigerian producing birth certs and claiming his father was Irish.

If the state can be tricked that easy it's a disgrace.

Gatling · 12-06-2021 8:02pm

Remember the story of the Nigerian asylum seekers who were massive drug dealers in Italy who disappeared before they could be prosecuted , turned up in tallaght with new identities and Irish citizenship .

12-06-2021 8:06pm

Gatling wrote: »

Remember the story of the Nigerian asylum seekers who were massive drug dealers in Italy who disappeared before they could be prosecuted , turned up in tallaght with new identities and Irish citizenship .

Jesus, depressing

Gatling · 12-06-2021 8:13pm

I beginning to think we need a massive swing to the right across the whole of Europe and governments enmass saying sorry no more ,all illegal arrivals will be returned to countries of origins ,and confiscate ngo vessels and ban them from operation at sea .
Use naval blockades in hot spots to turn around or deter boats getting into the med

Dyr · 12-06-2021 9:09pm

Helping people come into this country illegally is a crime?

Do the NGO sector know this?

ThunbergsAreGo · 12-06-2021 9:24pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Would you prefer that more people drown?

Of course not, id rather they didn't put their life in danger to make the journey.

What a stupid post

Screwthebeast · 13-06-2021 12:50am

slavetothegrind wrote: »

the worse animals are the customers who made it a profitable enterprise.

You're assuming they knew

When you wear clothes from Primark do you think of the slave conditions, the child labour and exploitation used to produce them.

Screwthebeast · 13-06-2021 12:55am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I have a male sex drive. I've never paid for sex, and I'm pretty sure I'm never going to pay for sex.

Well did you buy drinks or dinner or something else for a partner.

That's paying

You can pay physically, emotionally, intellectually or financially, it's all a form of payment.

The difference is society deems certain methods of payment acceptable and others unacceptable.

Vestiapx · 13-06-2021 1:15am

Mimon wrote: »

A large proportion of prostitutes won't be willingly doing it so or having mental issues/addiction problems etc has lead them down this path.

The empowered prostitute you describe would be very rare.

No one with a conscience can justify using prostitutes.

To be clear I have never even contemplated visiting a sex worker but l do not feel it nessicary to judge either the sex worker or the customer.

Vestiapx · 13-06-2021 1:50am

slavetothegrind wrote: »

I am assuming a person enslaved to prostitution would present differently but i have no metric as i have no experience as a customer. FWIW i agree with an earlier poster, this trade is as old as time, it needs to be legalised and regulated to protect the workers.
I would judge the customer.
If you saw any sign of distress or hesitation how the hell could you....

How the hell could you pay to have sex with a sex worker in the first place. I suspect a strong degree of desperation on both sides : supplier and consumer.

gw80 · 13-06-2021 5:38pm

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

Almost every single person that manage to leave the shores of Libya/Tunisia has been subjected to human trafficking, that's generally how they get through the central Mediterranean migrant route. In almost all cases, trafficking ends at the shore. Some are even ****ed overboard by the traffickers.

The trafficking for the purpose of prostitution in Ireland by those means would be very very small. While I don't doubt the story, it would be the exception and not the rule. To be honest, it really doesn't add up.

Anyway, getting back to your comment, which the real purpose was to denigrate the humanitarian efforts of the Naval Service who were directed by the government to perform the task. Their responsibility is to get people out of the water alive and onto shore, irrespective of circumstance. Unless you believe that aiding vulnerable people in dire circumstances should not be done, and those crossing should simply be left to die. Well, good luck with that.

Ultimately, the responsibility for registering, vetting, detaining and deporting migrants lies with the authorities of the landing country, Italy or Malta.

For context, the real reason for migration from that area is because Libya was a failed state. While Ghaddafi ruled, the EU used to pay him Millions of $ per year to counter migration to Europe. Eventually the EU stopped, so then migration increased and Ghaddafi was now looking for Billions to stop it again.

Ultimately, irregular migration was happening, with or without EU Naval Asset involvement. NGO fleets were also there, so they would reach the EU no matter what.

All the Irish Naval service did was to try to reduce the deaths......while also having a limited anti-piracy mandate. Suggesting the are complicit in facilitating prostitution et al, is frankly being a c.unt.

Don't really appreciate being called a c.unt, but you do you,.
How many lives would be saved if they just start returning them back to the African coast, how long before word got out that you will be wasting your time and money to make the trip in the first place,
Then you would see lives being saved,

AndrewJRenko · 13-06-2021 6:35pm

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Of course not, id rather they didn't put their life in danger to make the journey.

What a stupid post

For many, NOT making the journey is putting their life in danger. Just think about the level of desperation it takes to bring your child in one of those boats.

13-06-2021 7:04pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

For many, NOT making the journey is putting their life in danger. Just think about the level of desperation it takes to bring your child in one of those boats.

Africa's population is exploding, expected to hit more than 3-4 billion people in the next few decades. Nigeria alone will have up to 700,000,000 people.

How many of them do you want to move to Europe? I know you won't answer this question.

Gatling · 13-06-2021 7:14pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

For many, NOT making the journey is putting their life in danger. Just think about the level of desperation it takes to bring your child in one of those boats.

For many it's about Money and nothing more ,sky news interviewed on chap who was rescued who happily told the reporter he owned several businesses in Africa and was coming to Europe to make more Money ,others interviewed else where claimed to be Syrians fleeing the war ,yet when asked questions in Syrian they looked totally confused and didn't understand Syrian ..

13-06-2021 7:19pm

Meanwhile reports are coming in that the Belarus authorities are laying on extra planes to fly in Iraqis and Syrians to move them to Lithuania and the EU at $5000 a person. Lithuania says a state of emergency may be needed as hundreds are flying in every day.

So now we have non EU governments getting involved in the illegal immigration trade either for money or political purposes.

13-06-2021 11:26pm

Calahonda52 wrote: »

We, Homo Sapiens, the last time I looked, fit the definition of animal and the OP has made no mention of colour so perhaps back up\off

An animal is a living creature such as a dog, lion, or rabbit, rather than a bird, fish, insect, or human being. ... a habitat for plants and animals. 3. countable noun. Any living creature, including a human being, can be referred to as an animal.

What would be interesting is crime rates by original nationality/ethnic minority groupings, ignoring the barrier created by Alan Shatter's mega citizenship drive?

It's just gas like. The topic is about trafficking - a horrific matter - but more concern from Overheal about it being mentioned that they are Nigerian, and this being noted as not the first time.

Would that poster raise the same objection if it was a Slavic gang of traffickers (and same is a big problem) and others noting it's not the first time? I have my doubts.

joseywhales · 14-06-2021 2:57am

Screwthebeast wrote: »

Well did you buy drinks or dinner or something else for a partner.

That's paying

You can pay physically, emotionally, intellectually or financially, it's all a form of payment.

The difference is society deems certain methods of payment acceptable and others unacceptable.

It is not really transactional like you say, if I buy dinner, gifts, give compliments or make them laugh at no point do they have an obligation to return the other leg of the transaction. They may choose to or they might not, it is not payment for services.

kildare lad · 14-06-2021 8:24am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Africa's population is exploding, expected to hit more than 3-4 billion people in the next few decades. Nigeria alone will have up to 700,000,000 people.

How many of them do you want to move to Europe? I know you won't answer this question.

They should start filling up boxes with condoms and the pill with the next foreign aid deliveries. I find it hard to understand why poor people keep on having large families .

The_Kew_Tour · 14-06-2021 9:24am

Deleted User wrote: »

Africa's population is exploding, expected to hit more than 3-4 billion people in the next few decades. Nigeria alone will have up to 700,000,000 people.

How many of them do you want to move to Europe? I know you won't answer this question.

And somehow it be are the responsibility of the EU to look after it all while rest of world hides and giggles at us.

First human traffickers convicted.

Comments