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Aer Lingus Fleet/ Routes Discussion Pt 2 (ALL possible routes included)

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12467…205

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    #92
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    EI is 100% owned by a foreign company, so is no longer an Irish company.

    Aer Lingus Limited and Aer Lingus Group Designated Activity Company both registered in Ireland.

    Ownership doesn't change that.


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    #93
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    The arm of the company I work for is registered in Dublin too and the management is based in Ireland but is 100% an American company. Companies are registered in Ireland for tax reasons.
    EI is 100% owned by a foreign company, so is no longer an Irish company.

    I’m not going to dwell on this beyond this post, but it is still legally an Irish company.

    IAG may control the overall strategic direction, but local management still have a large amount of discretion in how the company is run.


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    #94
    NH2013
    Registered Users Posts: 401 ✭✭NH2013


    Negative_G wrote: »
    I don't wish to get into semantics but just in the interest of clarity, Aer Lingus is no longer an "irish company" and is fully owned by IAG.

    As for any potential bailout, that's for IAG to be concerned about. Not sure how legal or practical it would be to provide state aid to a specific part of a privately owned commercial business but who knows. These are not ordinary times.

    Well, yes owned by IAG which is a European (Spanish) company with shareholders all over Europe and the world; Ireland , the UK, Spain, Qatar, Germany, Norway, America, Switzerland, Bermuda etc, (https://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/stockdetails/ownership/fi-amfx3m?ownershipType=institutional) but the company itself is run from Dublin, it pays it's corperation taxes in Ireland, it's employees all pay tax in Ireland, it sources all of its food for inflight catering from Ieland, it's registered with the IAA in Ireland, it brings people to and from Ireland, it's head office is in Ireland etc, it's an Irish company as much as many others.

    It's of strategic importance to the nation as part of our national infastucture, even if no longer owned by the State, the same as many of our toll roads aren't owned by the State, but still form an important part of our infastructure.

    When it comes down to it, it's important to the State and I can't see it being let go bankrupt, so with that in mind my point was more along the lines of if we're going to have to spend money on it to keep it afloat, we may as well get value back in the form of it being used to transport PPE here, rather than having to hire in a foreign company such as a Chinese airline to fly the PPE here for 5-10% less say, we'll still end up paying for it in the end so may as well kill two birds with one stone and get better value for the taxes we're going to have to spend on this issue either way.


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    #95
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    The arm of the company I work for is registered in Dublin too and the management is based in Ireland but is 100% an American company. Companies are registered in Ireland for tax reasons.
    EI is 100% owned by a foreign company, so is no longer an Irish company.

    99.99...% actually the state retains a single share. (And that could be helpful if things go wrong in coming months)
    The Minister for Finance will retain a share in the company,
    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/cabinet-agrees-to-sell-state-s-25-stake-in-aer-lingus-1.2226921

    Doesn't matter who owns you, its where you are registered and Aer Lingus DAC is an Irish company registered with the CRO in Dublin (its one of the oldest on the register). Its principal shareholder is Spanish.


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    #96
    Jack1985
    Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Jack1985


    I see we have the weekly ''not an Irish company'' mantra back again.:D


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    #97
    HTCOne
    Registered Users Posts: 869 ✭✭✭HTCOne


    https://flyinginireland.com/2020/05/repatriation-flights-continue-as-restrictions-begin-to-lift/

    Just in case anyone thinks strokes are being pulled for EI in the PEK PPE transport flights, Finnair won the contract for the CAN flights, and Delta won the big one for ICN (120 million masks plus other PPE). These are put out for tender as per EU legislation, nobody is getting a free ride with tax payers €. EI got the PEK contract fair and square.


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    #98
    CBear1993
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭CBear1993


    Are AL’s June flights actually going to run are what I’d like to know? Considering Ryanair aren’t going again until 1st July.

    Hard to imagine how they’ll get a different rule. Have seen already ****ty customer behaviour where Aer lingus have cancelled flights without telling customers with very little notice


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    #99
    smurfjed
    Registered Users Posts: 10,031 ✭✭✭✭smurfjed


    I would love sometimes if someone in Government just said “screw it”, we are giving this contract to an Irish company regardless, because as NH2013 said above, we are going to pay for it anyway.

    Hearing that DELTA won it, is rather surprising. What happened to BUY IRISH:)


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    #100
    Van.Bosch
    Registered Users Posts: 2,849 ✭✭✭Van.Bosch


    smurfjed wrote: »
    I would love sometimes if someone in Government just said “screw it”, we are giving this contract to an Irish company regardless, because as NH2013 said above, we are going to pay for it anyway.

    Hearing that DELTA won it, is rather surprising. What happened to BUY IRISH:)

    Buy Irish is illegal under EU rules.


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    #101
    A320
    Registered Users Posts: 708 ✭✭✭A320


    Bloody yanks and Finns stealing our jobs,will they have the delta and Finnair crew on the late late show????


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    #102
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,667 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Van.Bosch wrote: »
    Buy Irish is illegal under EU rules.

    Nobody tell the EU all the illegal rules been broken currently...

    Its more than possible to put out a tender and comply with rules and still get the operator of choice to win it.

    _____
    Its likely Aer Lingus only got PEK flights because of regulations, you couldn't for example see Finnair getting permission to run 50 non stop flights between DUB-PEK.

    Its good they got PEK and were prepared to do it.

    Delta will be S Korea-USA-Ireland? and combined with other destinations rather than expansive direct flights as demand has eased.


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    #103
    smurfjed
    Registered Users Posts: 10,031 ✭✭✭✭smurfjed


    Van.Bosch wrote: »
    Buy Irish is illegal under EU rules.

    True, but right now how about we protect our economy and fight the court case in the years to come.


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    #104
    Van.Bosch
    Registered Users Posts: 2,849 ✭✭✭Van.Bosch


    smurfjed wrote: »
    True, but right now how about we protect our economy and fight the court case in the years to come.

    I agree, was just pointing it out. I’m sure it could be “fixed” for EI but maybe EI got greedy.


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    #105
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    At the time only EU carriers had the certification to carry cargo in the passenger cabin, EI had an advantage there.

    FAA has approved it now, so its a level playing field.

    That said the vast bulk of PPE is flying with EI


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    #106
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    smurfjed wrote: »
    True, but right now how about we protect our economy and fight the court case in the years to come.

    Aha. And during that court case many of the same "Buy Irish!" will be moaning if the costs of other lower bids emerge and the headlines will be "State Overspent by €xx Million During Pandemic Crisis", with posts like "Dey couldn't be givin de nurses a raise but had all dat cash for tha Spanish company!"

    Proper tender processes (a) provide value for money and (b) allow Irish companies to compete for and win business across our 450 million person EU market. It isn't in our 4.7 million person interest to suddenly become a standard bearer for deglobalisation.


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    #107
    joeysoap
    Registered Users Posts: 6,230 ✭✭✭joeysoap


    No mattered what they tendered, I couldn’t see AL getting a contract to carry PPE from say Korea to anywhere in the US.

    Might be using one of these

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SkyTeam_Cargo


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    #108
    Lapmo_Dancer
    Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭Lapmo_Dancer


    HTCOne wrote: »
    https://flyinginireland.com/2020/05/repatriation-flights-continue-as-restrictions-begin-to-lift/

    Just in case anyone thinks strokes are being pulled for EI in the PEK PPE transport flights, Finnair won the contract for the CAN flights, and Delta won the big one for ICN (120 million masks plus other PPE). These are put out for tender as per EU legislation, nobody is getting a free ride with tax payers €. EI got the PEK contract fair and square.

    The bit about Delta getting awarded the Korea contract has been removed from the article?


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    #109
    HTCOne
    Registered Users Posts: 869 ✭✭✭HTCOne


    Lapmo_Dancer wrote: »
    The bit about Delta getting awarded the Korea contract has been removed from the article?

    Indeed it has, strange.


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    #110
    Tenger
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,720 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    Lapmo_Dancer wrote: »
    The bit about Delta getting awarded the Korea contract has been removed from the article?

    Very odd. Maybe it was a mistake?


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    #111
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    HTCOne wrote: »
    https://flyinginireland.com/2020/05/repatriation-flights-continue-as-restrictions-begin-to-lift/

    Just in case anyone thinks strokes are being pulled for EI in the PEK PPE transport flights, Finnair won the contract for the CAN flights, and Delta won the big one for ICN (120 million masks plus other PPE). These are put out for tender as per EU legislation....

    What "EU legislation" says you have to allow American companies an opportunity to compete against EU companies for contracts that have nothing to do with America...?


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    #112
    HTCOne
    Registered Users Posts: 869 ✭✭✭HTCOne


    billy few mates wrote: »
    What "EU legislation" says you have to allow American companies an opportunity to compete against EU companies for contracts that have nothing to do with America...?

    Nothing specific to America, merely that national contracts must go for public tender, like how Royal Jordanian and UTAIR got the contracts for transporting our troops to and from UN missions in recent years.


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    #113
    Captain_Crash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,641 ✭✭✭Captain_Crash


    HTCOne wrote: »
    Nothing specific to America, merely that national contracts must go for public tender, like how Royal Jordanian and UTAIR got the contracts for transporting our troops to and from UN missions in recent years.

    Not necessarily, EU legislation allows for restricted procedures to be put in place which makes it possible to only invite certain entities to submit tenders.

    The Irish government choose to have tenders of this nature open to anyone but there is certainly no obligation for them to do so.


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    #114
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    I would imagine that the wider you cast your net the better your chances of success but I doubt there's an EU regulation that says you have to give the Americans an opportunity to tender and then have to go with them if they come in with the best bid.


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    #115
    HTCOne
    Registered Users Posts: 869 ✭✭✭HTCOne


    https://ec.europa.eu/growth/single-market/public-procurement/rules-implementation_en

    It's all covered here, basically transparency, competitiveness etc. I see lots of mentions of "ensures equal competition across the EU", which implies they only apply to EU companies, but downloading and reading the entire document on a phone is less than appealing! I did come across an article stating these rules did not apply to emergency COVID supplies.

    If DL did win the ICN contract, it is worth remembering they have a big hub operation in ICN, and A359s and B77Ls, which have advantages in cargo capacity vs the A330. Sure we'll have to wait and see what comes out in the wash officially.


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    #116
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,668 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    A "DL" contract win could have actually been AFKL tendering.


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    #117
    duskyjoe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 643 ✭✭✭duskyjoe


    Would Donald have let a european company get a contract ahead of an American company in the USA in these uncertain times to shift PPE?

    NO


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    #118
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,668 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    duskyjoe wrote: »
    Would Donald have let a european company get a contract ahead of an American company in the USA in these uncertain times to shift PPE?

    NO


    Is Trump someone to look at as a positive example, ever?

    No.

    But realistically, if the airline was owned by the landlord of one of his towers or golf courses, he'd be chomping at the bit.


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    #119
    duskyjoe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 643 ✭✭✭duskyjoe


    L1011 wrote: »
    Is Trump someone to look at as a positive example, ever?

    No.

    But realistically, if the airline was owned by the landlord of one of his towers or golf courses, he'd be chomping at the bit.

    Replace Trump with American government policy so .....you’ll get the same answer. No need to get personal


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    #120
    California Dreamer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭California Dreamer


    duskyjoe wrote: »
    Replace Trump with American government policy so .....you’ll get the same answer. No need to get personal

    Hear Hear!!! No need to get personal against the president of the united states!

    Poor fella wouldn't be able to take it! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


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    #121
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,668 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    duskyjoe wrote: »
    Replace Trump with American government policy so .....you’ll get the same answer. No need to get personal

    But you were the one that personalised it.


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