M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Pete_Cavan · 12-01-2021 11:45am

Isambard wrote: »

mallow to CHarlevile is the worst bit of road, it would be madness to do it thjat way

A Buttevant bypass would make a huge difference in the quality of that section. AADT is only 10k. Prioritise the NRR instead.

Bass Reeves · 12-01-2021 12:30pm

BelfastVanMan wrote: »

And after all that they put a dual carriageway bypass.in castleisland

So, they do it right sometimes.[/quote]

I cannot see the rational for it. I cannot ever see the road from it to Abbeyfeale being upgraded to dual carriageway. Its similar to Ennis to above Gort and onto Tuam. Motorway was not needed for that section. High-class single carriageway would have sufficed.

Sam Russell · 12-01-2021 4:56pm

They built Childers Road in Limerick as a bypass (in the 1970s - maybe), and provided for it to become a Dual in the future, but the future did not arrive for it. It is still a SC, but no longer a bypass - and not even close to the bypass.

Limerick has grown hugely in the intervening years, including getting a university and a motorway.

Childers Road predated us getting EU money for roads.

Cookiemunster · 12-01-2021 5:17pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

They built Childers Road in Limerick as a bypass (in the 1970s - maybe), and provided for it to become a Dual in the future, but the future did not arrive for it. It is still a SC, but no longer a bypass - and not even close to the bypass.

Limerick has grown hugely in the intervening years, including getting a university and a motorway.

Childers Road predated us getting EU money for roads.

Childers Road was built in stages into the mid 80s. We had our primary schools sports days on the surfaced but unopened section between the Roxboro and Kilmallock roundabouts and we played in the unfinished abandoned project for quite a few years (No H&S in the early 80s!)

I'm not sure where you got the idea they provided for a dual carriageway though. Between Punches Cross and Roxboro is lined with housing estates build in the 30s and 40s.

The next section between the two mentioned roundabouts has housing estates and schools built in the 60 and 70s and an industrial estate build around the same time either side and a railway bridge that definitely doesn't leave room for a dual carriageway.

Even the section between the Parkway and the Tipperary Road had the Claugheen GAA club stopping the possibility of a dual carriageway.

Sam Russell · 12-01-2021 5:38pm

The section from Dublin Rd to the Tipp roundabout had land reserved for dualling. Not sure about any further provision. If you look at Google maps, it is obvious.

Perhaps I am mistaken. But anyway, I believe also the same was done for the Neenah bypass, which is now the motorway. It was what we did before we got EU largesse.

We should not be doing it anymore, and particularly for the M20. It should be fast tracked.

Bazzer007 · 14-01-2021 9:12pm

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/601760/minister-objects-toproposed-m20-routes-in-county-limerick.html

irishfeen · 14-01-2021 9:47pm

Heard it from a reliable source that if the M20 ever actually comes to be built it will almost certainly have a cycle route and other “green” initiatives a-joining along its length.

This will also be the case with regards Mallow by-pass.

keane2097 · 14-01-2021 10:32pm

irishfeen wrote: »

Heard it from a reliable source that if the M20 ever actually comes to be built it will almost certainly have a cycle route and other “green” initiatives a-joining along its length.

This will also be the case with regards Mallow by-pass.

Good

Isambard · 14-01-2021 10:40pm

well yes, the cycle route can follow the old road or the new replacement R road. Doesn't need to be alongside the Mway

rounders · 17-01-2021 1:39am

Submission by Green Party councilor. I agree with some of his points around needing sustainable transport, an alternative to cars but the suggestion that a lot of people can switch over to a bike or train for their transport needs as a solution isn't sustainable. He mentions the need to upgrade the route but dismisses all proposals on the table for the road options.

Btw - This objection was retweeted by the minister for transport which gives me great hope in the route being funded to construction......

https://twitter.com/AlanOC_Green/status/1350160938146652160?s=20

Cookiemunster · 17-01-2021 2:11am

rounders wrote: »

Btw - This objection was retweeted by the minister for transport which gives me great hope in the route being funded to construction......

Don't worry. By the time this comes to be funded, the Greens will have been wiped out again at the next general election.

jaxxx · 17-01-2021 2:14am

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Don't worry. By the time this comes to be funded, the Greens will have been wiped out again at the next general election.

Literally I hope. I'm all for environmental awareness and all that, but our so-called green party are just a huge waste of good oxygen.

rounders · 17-01-2021 11:06am

jaxxx wrote: »

Literally I hope. I'm all for environmental awareness and all that, but our so-called green party are just a huge waste of good oxygen.

Same! I voted greens cause I can see we need to do something for the environment but they just seem to be a joke, especially Eamon Ryan.

Baldilocks · 17-01-2021 12:20pm

I love the greens and their ability to overlook basic maths/science.

They championed Diesel cars, and look at how that turned out

At the end of the day, while it is about moving people, all calculations should be based on moving mass (weight). Energy is required to move mass, and trains, well, they're not light!
A standard Irish rail carriage weighs 63,000kg (CAF Mark 4, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_4_(Iarnr%C3%B3d_%C3%89ireann) and will carry 71 people, the 201 engine weighs 108,000kg. The max number of carriages currently pulled is 5. Thus mass required to move 1 person is 1191kg. This is hardly a quick win! A VW golf weighs upto 1500kg, but can move 4 people. The mass required to move 1 person is 375kg. Even at 2 people per car, it's 750kg of transport mass per person, that's a 37% weight reduction on the train.
Not all cars are full - absolutely, but then neither are all trains. They might be on a friday evening/monday morning, but for the rest of the week??
Trains rarely (almost never) get you to your final destination, therefore extra kilometres and time will be added to most journeys.
The same logic applies for transport of goods.

That all said, as a country, public transport in our cities is very poor and is in dire need of significant improvement (buses, bus corridors, trams, etc.).

We need to focus on the energy required to move people, and the maths needs to include the mass of the vehicle

Sam Russell · 17-01-2021 12:46pm

Trains do not climb hills, and do not stop very often. It is hill climbing, and start/stop movement that burns energy.

donvito99 · 17-01-2021 12:51pm

rounders wrote: »

Same! I voted greens cause I can see we need to do something for the environment but they just seem to be a joke, especially Eamon Ryan.

You voted for the Green Party and are surprised that they're not rowing in behind building a big motorway?

Sam Russell · 17-01-2021 1:23pm

donvito99 wrote: »

You voted for the Green Party and are surprised that they're not rowing in behind building a big motorway?

The problem is that they are not building anything.

rounders · 17-01-2021 1:47pm

donvito99 wrote: »

You voted for the Green Party and are surprised that they're not rowing in behind building a big motorway?

I'm not surprised they aren't massive supporter of motorways. I am surprised by how little of anything they are doing though. Granted it we have the pandemic but the green deal and all that seems to have got watered down a lot already. That's before we actually see how much will actually get built

Sam Russell · 17-01-2021 2:20pm

It is a year since the general election and nothing much has been achieved.

Has E Ryan come out 100% behind Metrolink?

Has E Ryan come out 100% behind Busconnects?

Has E Ryan come out 100% behind Dart Expansion?

Has E Ryan come out 100% behind anything?

As Minister for Transport, has he done anything about disqualified drivers being caught driving, or untaxed cars being sold without the back taxes being paid?

In fact, has he done anything?

KrisW1001 · 17-01-2021 2:31pm

The Greens are like every political party - they contain a range of opinions on road transport, from pragmatic to bat**** crazy. There are environmentally justifiable reasons for road-building, despite the high cost to the environment: motorways take through-traffic out of populated areas, they reduce the fuel consumption of heavy goods traffic, and they are safer. Also, roads aren't combustion engines: future, electrified, transport will still need roads to run on.

Personally, as someone who has regularly voted Green, but also supports road building, I think M20 should be one of the last motorways built in the State - after this one, there are very few routes that justify this capacity, except on the ground that there's huge commuter demand, and commuter traffic is always the wrong reason to build a motorway. Instead of adding lanes in and out of the cities, we should be improving the routes between the motorways, and routes in rural areas, many of which haven't changed since the 1950s. For the cities we should be spending on better public transport (rail, light-rail, both with free park-and-ride facilities) instead of encouraging more and more people to drive all the way in to work and back every day. But none of these things are "either-or": everything is important.

riddlinrussell · 18-01-2021 10:40am

KrisW1001 wrote: »

The Greens are like every political party - they contain a range of opinions on road transport, from pragmatic to bat**** crazy. There are environmentally justifiable reasons for road-building, despite the high cost to the environment: motorways take through-traffic out of populated areas, they reduce the fuel consumption of heavy goods traffic, and they are safer. Also, roads aren't combustion engines: future, electrified, transport will still need roads to run on.

Personally, as someone who has regularly voted Green, but also supports road building, I think M20 should be one of the last motorways built in the State - after this one, there are very few routes that justify this capacity, except on the ground that there's huge commuter demand, and commuter traffic is always the wrong reason to build a motorway. Instead of adding lanes in and out of the cities, we should be improving the routes between the motorways, and routes in rural areas, many of which haven't changed since the 1950s. For the cities we should be spending on better public transport (rail, light-rail, both with free park-and-ride facilities) instead of encouraging more and more people to drive all the way in to work and back every day. But none of these things are "either-or": everything is important.

Hear hear!

Am a Green, M20 is a vital project that needs built, once its done, the country cannot justify another Motorway, safety improvements only (E.g. A1 upgrade up North)

Cities need alternatives, look at providing dedicated bus lanes on some of the 3 lane routes with frequent services in peak times, subsidise ticket prices on PT, a serious dedicated look at creating a rural cycle and walking network so people can safely travel from village to village without having to drive.

I do have my doubts that Eamonn Ryan is the person to deliver that, all I want is a competent green transport minister...

Hibernicis · 18-01-2021 11:51am

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Hear hear!

Am a Green, M20 is a vital project that needs built, once its done, the country cannot justify another Motorway, safety improvements only (E.g. A1 upgrade up North)

Cities need alternatives, look at providing dedicated bus lanes on some of the 3 lane routes with frequent services in peak times, subsidise ticket prices on PT, a serious dedicated look at creating a rural cycle and walking network so people can safely travel from village to village without having to drive.

I do have my doubts that Eamonn Ryan is the person to deliver that, all I want is a competent green transport minister...

Agree re the M20. Most of the remainder of your post makes sense, but saying that “the country cannot justify another Motorway” is OTT. What about M3 (J1-3), N11/N25 Oilgate to Rosslare Harbour, M28, M40(N&W), M45/49/51 (or whatever the Leinster Orbital ends up being called) ? All/most of these are very necessary and will not be supplanted by bicycles, passenger trains or public transport. Whether they are HQDC or Motorway is little more than semantics.

Pete_Cavan · 18-01-2021 12:09pm

Hibernicis wrote: »

Agree re the M20. Most of the remainder of your post makes sense, but saying that “the country cannot justify another Motorway” is OTT. What about M3 (J1-3), N11/N25 Oilgate to Rosslare Harbour, M28, M40(N&W), M45/49/51 (or whatever the Leinster Orbital ends up being called) ? All/most of these are very necessary and will not be supplanted by bicycles, passenger trains or public transport. Whether they are HQDC or Motorway is little more than semantics.

I presume he means by the time the N/M20 gets to construction the M28, M21 Adare and M25 to Midleton will be under construction or completed. N3 J1-3 is an upgrade of existing road, not new build motorway. N11/N25 Oilgate to Rosslare Harbour might have motorway to Wexford but certainly not south of the town, even 2+2 would suffice to Wexford. I can't see a full on new Leinster Orbital motorway, policy has shifted any from that in the short to medium term at least and might not even be desired in the future. The M40 would more likely be the last offline new build motorway.

bk · 18-01-2021 12:47pm

Baldilocks wrote: »

We need to focus on the energy required to move people, and the maths needs to include the mass of the vehicle

To add to your post, they also seem to ignore the intercity coaches that can travel efficiently on such motorways. Diesel coaches are much more energy efficient and release far less emissions then both cars and diesel trains.

And of course EV and Hydrogen intercity coaches are starting to arrive now.

Perhaps a smart approach the greens could take is to require any new regular licensed coach service that wants to use the M20 to use 100% EV/Hydrogen vehicles. Perhaps free tolls to help offset the extra cost, something which I think should be extended to EV cars too.

They should also be designing in bus/coach priority measures into the motorway from the start.

riddlinrussell · 18-01-2021 1:46pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I presume he means by the time the N/M20 gets to construction the M28, M21 Adare and M25 to Midleton will be under construction or completed. N3 J1-3 is an upgrade of existing road, not new build motorway. N11/N25 Oilgate to Rosslare Harbour might have motorway to Wexford but certainly not south of the town, even 2+2 would suffice to Wexford. I can't see a full on new Leinster Orbital motorway, policy has shifted any from that in the short to medium term at least and might not even be desired in the future. The M40 would more likely be the last offline new build motorway.

Isn't the M40 an online Upgrade of the N40?

Yes I mean all the other 'essential' motorways will be complete before the M20.

The Leinster Orbital is VERY firmly in the category of "Definitely not needed", its trying to solve a problem that should be fixed by making the M50 do the job it was made for instead of the job it does, get junction hoppers off it and change the tolling system to favour true orbital use, put in an orbital priority bus service and you should dramatically ease congestion on it. Building the leinster orbital would essentially be making a 'fatter pipe' just not directly on the same road space, the N-roads that it would replace should just have whatever required safety improvements are needed.

N3 is an extremely poor example, same with all the N roads coming off the M50, most of those could be made Motorway through a pruning of Junctions etc so I'm not including them as 'New' Motorway.

The whole network, and especially the 3 lane routes should be looking at bus priority measures, maybe hard shoulder running like they have in NI. A retrofit of all junctions with good bus facilities and cycling/walking links to towns, plus decent sized park and rides on approach to cities and cheaper bus fares would hopefully encourage more people to use intercity bus routes and improve speed of operations with stopping buses not having to navigate town centres.

These link stops could even have a local link style bus connecting to the nearby towns, forming a PT 'Hub' for each area.

Isambard · 18-01-2021 1:52pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Isn't the M40 an online Upgrade of the N40?

Yes I mean all the other 'essential' motorways will be complete before the M20.

The Leinster Orbital is VERY firmly in the category of "Definitely not needed", its trying to solve a problem that should be fixed by making the M50 do the job it was made for instead of the job it does, get junction hoppers off it and change the tolling system to favour true orbital use, put in an orbital priority bus service and you should dramatically ease congestion on it. Building the leinster orbital would essentially be making a 'fatter pipe' just not directly on the same road space, the N-roads that it would replace should just have whatever required safety improvements are needed.

N3 is an extremely poor example, same with all the N roads coming off the M50, most of those could be made Motorway through a pruning of Junctions etc so I'm not including them as 'New' Motorway.

The whole network, and especially the 3 lane routes should be looking at bus priority measures, maybe hard shoulder running like they have in NI. A retrofit of all junctions with good bus facilities and cycling/walking links to towns, plus decent sized park and rides on approach to cities and cheaper bus fares would hopefully encourage more people to use intercity bus routes and improve speed of operations with stopping buses not having to navigate town centres.

These link stops could even have a local link style bus connecting to the nearby towns, forming a PT 'Hub' for each area.

i think what's meant is a new extension of the M40 to connect with the M20

riddlinrussell · 18-01-2021 1:58pm

Isambard wrote: »

i think what's meant is a new extension of the M40 to connect with the M20

Ah, that could probably fall under "Safety", an M20-M8-M40 link would definitely be reasonable, but new 'long-distance' motorway is just not needed, or if it is it should be the last resort after PT/Cycling/Walking solutions have been implemented.

Isambard · 18-01-2021 2:13pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Ah, that could probably fall under "Safety", an M20-M8-M40 link would definitely be reasonable, but new 'long-distance' motorway is just not needed, or if it is it should be the last resort after PT/Cycling/Walking solutions have been implemented.

the M8 wouldn't really come into it, it's the extension of the Cork ring road from the Tunnel to the M20 replacing the North Ring through Ballyvolane.

riddlinrussell · 18-01-2021 3:16pm

Isambard wrote: »

the M8 wouldn't really come into it, it's the extension of the Cork ring road from the Tunnel to the M20 replacing the North Ring through Ballyvolane.

The M8 is on the other side of Dunkettle from the tunnel is it not? A link to the tunnel would therefore link the M20 to the M8?

AugustusMinimus · 18-01-2021 4:00pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The problem is that they are not building anything.

They talk a great game but then object to just about everything when a proposal is put on the table.

It’s like every proposal is never green enough and so must be rejected.

Isambard · 18-01-2021 4:00pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

The M8 is on the other side of Dunkettle from the tunnel is it not? A link to the tunnel would therefore link the M20 to the M8?

well no, the M8 doesn't start for a short distance technically, and that section , which will need a rebuild, would be designated M40 to give a continuous ring road if I interpreted the situation correctly.

KrisW1001 · 19-01-2021 4:49pm

Getting off topic a little, but I don't see a need for the Leinster Outer Orbital if you upgrade the secondary routes that run between the radial motorways in Leinster. The Leinster Outer Orbital doesn't do much for someone trying to get from the South-east to Galway, but upgrading N77 and N80 really would.

Looking at the map, there really should be some kind of National route connecting Monesterevin - Enfield- Trim - Navan that would provide a lot of the benefits to national traffic that are proposed for
the Leinster Outer Orbital, but at lower cost. High capacity isn't what's needed here, as most traffic would still be on the radials in and out of Dublin, but these inter-connecting routes just need to be at a consistent and reasonably high standard, either a Type 1 single, or 2+2 in more populous areas.

Pablo Escobar · 19-01-2021 5:44pm

Isambard wrote: »

well no, the M8 doesn't start for a short distance technically, and that section , which will need a rebuild, would be designated M40 to give a continuous ring road if I interpreted the situation correctly.

The only section that's not covered would be further north, i.e west of Glanmire and north of Ballincollig. Maybe I've misunderstood you, but I know the area well and I'm not making sense of some of the posts.

Isambard · 19-01-2021 8:45pm

Pablo Escobar wrote: »

The only section that's not covered would be further north, i.e west of Glanmire and north of Ballincollig. Maybe I've misunderstood you, but I know the area well and I'm not making sense of some of the posts.

my only point is that traffic using this route won't be using the M8. The route will be (at a guess) continuous N40/M40 no doubt with a connection off it to the Glanmire Bypass/ M8 (This may entail re-designating part of the N8/M8 as M40/N40. )

Reputable Rog · 19-01-2021 10:30pm

Isambard wrote: »

my only point is that traffic using this route won't be using the M8. The route will be (at a guess) continuous N40/M40 no doubt with a connection off it to the Glanmire Bypass/ M8 (This may entail re-designating part of the N8/M8 as M40/N40. )

Wasn’t something similar meant to happen with the N18 supposed to become the M7 at Cratloemoyle?

PKB1 · 20-01-2021 6:28pm

Hi,

Does anybody know when the preferred route is expected to be picked?

rounders · 20-01-2021 6:31pm

PKB1 wrote: »

Hi,

Does anybody know when the preferred route is expected to be picked?

July/August was the guidance I was given during consultation

PKB1 · 20-01-2021 8:51pm

rounders wrote: »

July/August was the guidance I was given during consultation

How wide is the corridor route that will be chosen?

rounders · 20-01-2021 9:16pm

PKB1 wrote: »

How wide is the corridor route that will be chosen?

Not too sure. All I was told was it will definitely be somewhere within the corridors and won't branch outside them in any place. TBF to them though, I didn't ask the width

BloodyBill · 20-01-2021 9:24pm

rounders wrote: »

Not too sure. All I was told was it will definitely be somewhere within the corridors and won't branch outside them in any place. TBF to them though, I didn't ask the width

The big worry in all this is Eamon Ryan. Hes stalled the Northern distributer Road in Limerick city. Who's going to be surprised if he comes out and stalls this. He could say we are working remotely..we ll upgrade the railway between Kent and Colbert...ect. The Greens will try and put a spanner in this roads spokes...wait and see

steeler j · 20-01-2021 9:40pm

BloodyBill wrote: »

The big worry in all this is Eamon Ryan. Hes stalled the Northern distributer Road in Limerick city. Who's going to be surprised if he comes out and stalls this. He could say we are working remotely..we ll upgrade the railway between Kent and Colbert...ect. The Greens will try and put a spanner in this roads spokes...wait and see

By the time it's ready to start construction ,they may be out of government

danpaddyandy · 20-01-2021 11:08pm

Hi
So is there a complete freeze on planning permissions for houses/sheds within these corridors . Will the planning freeze be lifted on the non chosen routes when they choose a preferred route or will it be when the chosen route is all approved by An Bord Pleanála in 2 or 3 years?

Thanks

rounders · 20-01-2021 11:50pm

danpaddyandy wrote: »

Hi
So is there a complete freeze on planning permissions for houses/sheds within these corridors . Will the planning freeze be lifted on the non chosen routes when they choose a preferred route or will it be when the chosen route is all approved by An Bord Pleanála in 2 or 3 years?

Thanks

Haven't heard anything official but I would expect that any planning restrictions in place at the moment will be removed around the unsuccessful route option once the decision has been made later in the year.

You won't have to wait until planning is granted on the successful route for restrictions to be lifted on the unsuccessful route

PKB1 · 21-01-2021 5:55pm

I just found out that the corridors are 500m wide.

Limerick74 · 21-01-2021 8:43pm

PKB1 wrote: »

I just found out that the corridors are 500m wide.

That is normal for option selection stage. The preferred corridor is refined during the design stage.

PKB1 · 22-01-2021 12:03pm

Limerick74 wrote: »

That is normal for option selection stage. The preferred corridor is refined during the design stage.

Yes but I think all properties within any corridor cannot get planning permission while the selection process is ongoing.

22-01-2021 12:06pm

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Wasn’t something similar meant to happen with the N18 supposed to become the M7 at Cratloemoyle?

M18 rather than M7. That’ll never happen, there’s houses fronting onto the N18 all the way from Cratloemoyle to Shannon.

Limerick74 · 22-01-2021 2:15pm

PKB1 wrote: »

Yes but I think all properties within any corridor cannot get planning permission while the selection process is ongoing.

An unfortunate consequence of proper planning and development. I would like to know if new infrastructure was planned next to me before proceeding with planning.

Reputable Rog · 22-01-2021 5:33pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

M18 rather than M7. That’ll never happen, there’s houses fronting onto the N18 all the way from Cratloemoyle to Shannon.

Supposed to be reclassified as N7 from the Limerick inn junction back in the day.

PKB1 · 24-01-2021 12:38pm

Hi, I’m wondering if anyone has any views on the likelyhood of the M20 following the route of the Croom bypass? Maybe people have insight of justification in previous planning application? Any help appreciated.

M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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