Air BnB [and other platforms] to be effectively outlawed in high demand areas

20-01-2020 8:03am

I'm sure plenty of airbnb's are well run and cause little to no disruption to neighbours.

I live beside a terrible one, its a 3 bedroomed terrace house that advertises letting to 10 people but often has more. There is a huge difference between airbnb's that are catering to small numbers of tourists and those that are seeking to attract large groups.

The owner of the property is aware that it is a full time airbnb but has lied to the council "who will investigate in the new year once they have recruited the requisite personnel". The owner is getting a massively increased rent while I am being awoken at 4am by a stag party who can't get in next door and want to use my toilet, when I don't let them they piss in next doors garden. I don't call the Guards because I would be calling at least once a week, I have only called once when there was a bareknuckle fight in the back garden next door.

I am not against airbnb, my brother lives beside one that is owner occupied (very occasionally fully let) and he has never had any problems but I am convinced that ones like the one I live beside will take down all whole house/apartment airbnbs even if they aren't problematic.

I hope it will be legal action that brings them down but worry that it will be a death due to the lack of fire safety and overcrowding in these properties that will make the councils properly investigate and enforce this.

04-02-2020 2:33pm

As of today, 17 of the 18 LAs in RPZs have hired no staff to help enforce regs on short lets. I don’t think Hosts will be sweating it.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/election-2020-fact-check-how-is-the-clampdown-on-airbnb-style-lettings-working-1.4161257?mode=amp

mrslancaster · 04-02-2020 3:58pm

am I correct in thinking that short term lets are 14 days or less and anything longer falls under the RTB? so a landlord who doesn't want long term tenants can register as many 15 day stays as they like?

marieholmfan · 04-02-2020 4:01pm

mrslancaster wrote: »

am I correct in thinking that short term lets are 14 days or less and anything longer falls under the RTB? so a landlord who doesn't want long term tenants can register as many 15 day stays as they like?

No you're not.

mrslancaster · 04-02-2020 4:05pm

marieholmfan wrote: »

No you're not.

Which?
Not correct it's 14 days or less at a time or a landlord can register any length of stay with the rtb?

04-02-2020 4:15pm

mrslancaster wrote: »

Which?
Not correct it's 14 days or less at a time or a landlord can register any length of stay with the rtb?

You can do short term lets of over 14 days under the new rules but you don't have to register with the RTB etc as they are still short term lets.

mrslancaster · 04-02-2020 4:23pm

Carlos Slow Traitor wrote: »

You can do short term lets of over 14 days under the new rules but you don't have to register with the RTB etc as they are still short term lets.

Thanks nox, is that for home sharing in ppr? I was wondering about places that are full lets. So many landlords saying they don't want to do long lettings for different reasons & want to do short lets but the council won't give planning permission. So if it's a let of 15days just register them with rtb.
Edit: more paperwork tbf.
is there anything to stop a landlord doing that - can't a landlord register tenants that come & go. Is there a regulation that a tenancy must be a certain length of time?

Graham · 04-02-2020 6:34pm

mrslancaster wrote: »

is there anything to stop a landlord doing that - can't a landlord register tenants that come & go. Is there a regulation that a tenancy must be a certain length of time?

You're trying to avoid the obligations of the residential tenancies act by registering tenancies?

04-02-2020 6:50pm

mrslancaster wrote: »

Thanks nox, is that for home sharing in ppr? I was wondering about places that are full lets. So many landlords saying they don't want to do long lettings for different reasons & want to do short lets but the council won't give planning permission. So if it's a let of 15days just register them with rtb.
Edit: more paperwork tbf.
is there anything to stop a landlord doing that - can't a landlord register tenants that come & go. Is there a regulation that a tenancy must be a certain length of time?

If you do a 15 day let in a house that is not your PPR it is legally allowed within the new rules and there is no obligation to register with the RTB.

Graham · 04-02-2020 7:03pm

Dav010 wrote: »

As of today, 17 of the 18 LAs in RPZs have hired no staff to help enforce regs on short lets. I don’t think Hosts will be sweating it.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/election-2020-fact-check-how-is-the-clampdown-on-airbnb-style-lettings-working-1.4161257?mode=amp

That's not how I read it....

Fianna Fáil also referred to a Freedom of Information request. It didn’t share the full FoI response, but did send a press release based on it from November last year. The press release claimed no additional staff were in place in 17 of 18 local authorities which contain rent pressure zones.

and later in the article

Dublin City Council has filled nine of 12 positions

Claw Hammer · 04-02-2020 7:04pm

Carlos Slow Traitor wrote: »

If you do a 15 day let in a house that is not your PPR it is legally allowed within the new rules and there is no obligation to register with the RTB.

If the letting is for the purposes of a holiday there is no need to register with the RTB. However, there is a need to get planning permission. Planning permission will likely be refused.

04-02-2020 7:21pm

Graham wrote: »

That's not how I read it....

and later in the article

Hard to imagine the title would be "Fact Check" without first checking the facts before publishing an article 7 hours ago, but not beyond the realms of possibility. The articles says they have contacted LAs and though money has been assigned for staffing, it does not say they have been hired.

I could be going out on a limb here Graham, but maybe Dublin is the 1 of 18 which has hired staff.

mrslancaster · 04-02-2020 7:30pm

Graham wrote: »

You're trying to avoid the obligations of the residential tenancies act by registering tenancies?

Not trying to do anything actually, just asking a question that occurred to me when reading this thread.

Graham · 04-02-2020 9:20pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Hard to imagine the title would be "Fact Check" without first checking the facts before publishing an article 7 hours ago

I'd read the result of the fact check and discover the verdict.

Our verdict:

Fianna Fáil’s core claim was that “Fine Gael has not [made available] actual resources for local authorities to enforce new regulations”.

Therefore we find that the Fianna Fáil claim is untrue.

04-02-2020 9:26pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

If the letting is for the purposes of a holiday there is no need to register with the RTB. However, there is a need to get planning permission. Planning permission will likely be refused.

The Airbnb ban only applies to let’s shorter than 14 days so no need for planning.

04-02-2020 9:36pm

Graham wrote: »

I'd read the result of the fact check and discover the verdict.

The resources have been made available when they checked the claims in the manifesto, they outline the money being made available for 2020 & 2021, what they don’t say is that the staff have been hired with the exception of Dublin, 1 of the 18 RPZs. This follows on from other articles which you will find links to on earlier posts on this thread which refer to also state that staff have yet to be hired.

Don’t you think it would have contradicted FFs manifesto more strongly if they had found that staff had actually been hired in more RPZs? That “verdict” would have packed more of a punch.

Graham · 04-02-2020 10:38pm

I'll summarise the article for you

In its election manifesto, Fianna Fáil claimed that Fine Gael “has not backed up its press release politics with actual resources for Local Authorities to enforce new regulations.

Our verdict:

we find that the Fianna Fáil claim is untrue.

If it makes you feel better there hasn't been much reported in the way of enforcement actions.

Yet

Claw Hammer · 05-02-2020 4:43pm

Carlos Slow Traitor wrote: »

The Airbnb ban only applies to let’s shorter than 14 days so no need for planning.

It is still holiday letting which is a different use than the planning allows for.

Claw Hammer · 05-02-2020 4:45pm

Graham wrote: »

I'll summarise the article for you

If it makes you feel better there hasn't been much reported in the way of enforcement actions.

Yet

I know people who have stopped doing AirBnb as a result of pressure from the planning inspectors. There is no publicity because it hasn't gone to court.

05-02-2020 5:25pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

It is still holiday letting which is a different use than the planning allows for.

Very much open to interpretation? Where do you draw the line, 3 weeks, a month, 2 months? Once its over 14 days it fair game imo.

Claw Hammer · 05-02-2020 6:08pm

Carlos Slow Traitor wrote: »

Very much open to interpretation? Where do you draw the line, 3 weeks, a month, 2 months? Once its over 14 days it fair game imo.

Either the letting is for the purpose of a holiday or it is not. The length of the letting is irrelevant.

05-02-2020 6:36pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Either the letting is for the purpose of a holiday or it is not. The length of the letting is irrelevant.

Strange post.

The length of the let is absolutely relevant, and not everyone who require a short let is on holiday, many people require accommodation for short term employment contracts etc.

Claw Hammer · 06-02-2020 5:02pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Strange post.

The length of the let is absolutely relevant, and not everyone who require a short let is on holiday, many people require accommodation for short term employment contracts etc.

If it is not for a holiday and longer than 14 days,RTB.
If it is less than 14 days, Air BNb.
If it is for a holiday longer than 14 days, there is a requirement for planning permission.

Holiday use is a different class of planning use than normal residential use as has been confirmed by the High Court in 1996.

You can't give a 15 day lease and avoid, one of Air bnb, RTB or planning permission.

Yellow_Fern · 07-02-2020 1:02am

Claw Hammer wrote: »

If it is not for a holiday and longer than 14 days,RTB.
If it is less than 14 days, Air BNb.
If it is for a holiday longer than 14 days, there is a requirement for planning permission.

Holiday use is a different class of planning use than normal residential use as has been confirmed by the High Court in 1996.

You can't give a 15 day lease and avoid, one of Air bnb, RTB or planning permission.

Mad stuff

07-02-2020 1:16am

Claw Hammer wrote: »

If it is not for a holiday and longer than 14 days,RTB.
If it is less than 14 days, Air BNb.
If it is for a holiday longer than 14 days, there is a requirement for planning permission.

Holiday use is a different class of planning use than normal residential use as has been confirmed by the High Court in 1996.

You can't give a 15 day lease and avoid, one of Air bnb, RTB or planning permission.

To put it simply, you are wrong.

No requirement for planning on a short term let once it’s longer than 14days and no requirement for rtb on a short term let. No need to turn yourself inside out trying to find ways to disallow things.

Claw Hammer · 07-02-2020 1:20pm

Carlos Slow Traitor wrote: »

To put it simply, you are wrong.

No requirement for planning on a short term let once it’s longer than 14days and no requirement for rtb on a short term let. No need to turn yourself inside out trying to find ways to disallow things.

To put it simply, you are wrong.

section 3 of the Residential Tenancies Act
"3.—(1) Subject to subsection (2), this Act applies to every dwelling, the subject of a tenancy (including a tenancy created before the passing of this Act)."

There is no minimum term specified. A lease of one day is sufficient.

You are turning yourself inside out trying to find a loophole where there is none.

07-02-2020 1:24pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

To put it simply, you are wrong.

section 3 of the Residential Tenancies Act
"3.—(1) Subject to subsection (2), this Act applies to every dwelling, the subject of a tenancy (including a tenancy created before the passing of this Act)."

There is no minimum term specified. A lease of one day is sufficient.

You are turning yourself inside out trying to find a loophole where there is none.

There is no tenancy on a short term let so no requirement to register.

Claw Hammer · 07-02-2020 1:29pm

Carlos Slow Traitor wrote: »

There is no tenancy on a short term let so no requirement to register.

If it is let there is a lease by implication. What is the purpose of the short term let? Are you giving short licences to the occupiers.
A series of short term licences is a material change of use of the dwelling whether longer than 14 days or not.

19-02-2020 2:35pm

Great to see the new regulations being enforced.

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2020/0219/1116267-airbnb-dublin-lettings/

“ There have been 395 investigations under laws restricting Airbnb and other short-term lettings in the Dublin city rent pressure zone, according to a new report.

A new report states that the city council has a target to make 1,000 investigations a year. Its Short Term Lettings Unit is examining online platforms, following up complaints from members of the public and making inspections.

Of the cases investigated so far 87 are classified as "resolved" which is understood to mean the property has been taken off the short-term market.

The latest data from the monitoring website Inside Airbnb suggests there are currently 9,437 such listings in Dublin with just under half being the letting of an entire house or apartment.

The report, which follows the introduction of the laws last June, states there are 11 staff in the council's Short Term Lettings Unit whose cost is funded by the Department of Housing.

The unit is enforcing regulations that ban the short-term letting out of an entire property in a rent pressure zone that is not a principal private residence. This requires planning permission which is unlikely to be granted.

The report to the council's Planning Committee states that there were just 16 planning applications lodged with 13 either refused, withdrawn or declared invalid, while three await a decision.

The new laws allow the short-term letting of rooms in a private residence or the letting of the entire residence for a maximum of 90 days a year.

These require a formal notification to the council known as a Form 15.

There were just 246 such notifications last year and 69 received so far this year.

These include both short term lettings and homesharing which involves renting out a room on a longer term basis.

The short-term letting regulations allow for criminal prosecution with a maximum penalty of €5,000 and/or six months imprisonment.”

LuckyLloyd · 19-02-2020 6:07pm

Plenty of warnings out there now. And seems there will be plenty of warnings provided for individual owners violating their planning permission. No excuses to end up in court.

Claw Hammer · 19-02-2020 6:11pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Plenty of warnings out there now. And seems there will be plenty of warnings provided for individual owners violating their planning permission. No excuses to end up in court.

A lot of units have gone back, or are going back, to long term letting. That is likely behind the fall in rents.

19-02-2020 7:04pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

A lot of units have gone back, or are going back, to long term letting. That is likely behind the fall in rents.

What are you basing your opinion on that a lot of units are back in long term lets?

The piece doesn’t say what constitutes an “investigation”, is it recording a complaint about a property being used for short lets, or just copying Airbnb ads onto a spread sheet for investigation?

Yellow_Fern · 19-02-2020 10:41pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

A lot of units have gone back, or are going back, to long term letting. That is likely behind the fall in rents.

Or the huge numbers of stock brought by the institutional landlords.

20-02-2020 9:16am

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Or the huge numbers of stock brought by the institutional landlords.

And rented out to families, couples, etc.

Claw Hammer · 20-02-2020 1:23pm

Dav010 wrote: »

What are you basing your opinion on that a lot of units are back in long term lets?

The piece doesn’t say what constitutes an “investigation”, is it recording a complaint about a property being used for short lets, or just copying Airbnb ads onto a spread sheet for investigation?

I have met 2 owners who have received letters from the Council in the last few weeks. Both have decided to give up the AirBnB if they get any more pressure. They are clearly not isolated cases.

Claw Hammer · 20-02-2020 1:25pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Or the huge numbers of stock brought by the institutional landlords.

Newly built units are also having some effect. The calibre of prospective tenant for vacant older units seems to have gone down. The upper end f the market appears to e satiated.

20-02-2020 1:50pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

I have met 2 owners who have received letters from the Council in the last few weeks. Both have decided to give up the AirBnB if they get any more pressure. They are clearly not isolated cases.

2 is not “a lot”, considering many owners changed to Airbnb specifically because they do not want to rent to tenants, the verifiable reduction in the numbers of LLs, and the possibility of a rent freeze, I would think your assumption doesn’t hold up.

Claw Hammer · 20-02-2020 2:53pm

Dav010 wrote: »

2 is not “a lot”, considering many owners changed to Airbnb specifically because they do not want to rent to tenants, the verifiable reduction in the numbers of LLs, and the possibility of a rent freeze, I would think your assumption doesn’t hold up.

They are only 2 I have met in the last week. i did meet another 1 a few months ago who had to stop due to pressure from neighbours. Given that the council have announced they are cracking down i would think it reasonable that they are not the only ones on a target list. Even if the 1 Council staff only generate 10 computer letters a week and only chase up on 1 or 2 they will soon have contacted 1000s. A few will stop immediately and others will try and brazen it out and force it to court, but i have little doubt that units are drifting back to the long term market.

hometruths · 09-05-2020 8:40pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Graham, in that sense, most industries have imploded. It’s what happens when restrictions are lifted that will be telling, just like all other industries. As I said on another thread, STLs are open for bookings right now, hotels aren’t. I’ve gotten bookings during the lockdown for the last quarter of the year and into next year, many hotels can’t do that at the moment.

I really don’t get this fixation with STLs, it’s a minuscule percentage of the rental/sales market and gets a disproportionate amount of importance in conversations about both. It’s not a broken part, it’s just a part.

Fair point that what is most important is what happens when restrictions are lifted that will be telling.

And whilst STLs are open for bookings now they may end up having to cancel those booking when lockdown is lifted.

Will you have to compensate people who have booked or airbnb if you are forced to cancel the reservations?

09-05-2020 8:51pm

schmittel wrote: »

Fair point that what is most important is what happens when restrictions are lifted that will be telling.

And whilst STLs are open for bookings now they may end up having to cancel those booking when lockdown is lifted.

Will you have to compensate people who have booked or airbnb if you are forced to cancel the reservations?

No compensation, with Airbnb if a Host cancels a booking, the dates are blocked from being booked again. Why would Hosts have to cancel when restrictions are lifted? If you are talking about guests cancelling, it depends on the Hosts cancellation policy, you can set that as you wish.

hometruths · 09-05-2020 9:11pm

Dav010 wrote: »

No compensation, with Airbnb if a Host cancels a booking, the dates are blocked from being booked again. Why would Hosts have to cancel when restrictions are lifted? If you are talking about guests cancelling, it depends on the Hosts cancellation policy, you can set that as you wish.

If it is your PDH I don't think you'll have a problem, but I think there is a good chance that the legislation will be enforced. i.e any hosts who are not listing their PDH will be shut down.

May even happen before lockdown is lifted. Sooner or later we will have a new housing minister, who will be looking for a big win to hit the ground running with.

I think an airbnb clamp down will be at the very top of their in tray.

There is a good chance it will be Darragh O’Brien because he is FF spokesperson for housing. If it is him I'd say he will announce measures on the first day in the job!

09-05-2020 9:15pm

schmittel wrote: »

If it is your PDH I don't think you'll have a problem, but I think there is a good chance that the legislation will be enforced. i.e any hosts who are not listing their PDH will be shut down.

May even happen before lockdown is lifted. Sooner or later we will have a new housing minister, who will be looking for a big win to hit the ground running with.

I think an airbnb clamp down will be at the very top of their in tray.

There is a good chance it will be Darragh O’Brien because he is FF spokesperson for housing. If it is him I'd say he will announce measures on the first day in the job!

I think you are being naive. You understand that to get a prosecution, the LA have to actually find and interview the guests in the property? A listing is not enough. A clampdown on STLs will not be top of the tray, there are far bigger and more important problems in the country.

Again this is an example of people giving STLs far more importance than they deserve. It’s a strange phenomenon.

Melanchthon · 09-05-2020 9:19pm

Dav010 wrote: »

I think you are being naive. You understand that to get a prosecution, the LA have to actually find and interview the guests in the property? A listing is not enough. A clampdown on STLs will not be top of the tray, there are far bigger and more important problems in the country.

But not ridiculously easy political wins which is the point. Wouldn't it be really simple for the Local Authority to get convictions, just get a staff member who had used AirBnB before a bit with good feedback to make a booking.

09-05-2020 9:23pm

Melanchthon wrote: »

But not ridiculously easy political wins which is the point. Wouldn't it be really simple for the Local Authority to get convictions, just get a staff member who had used AirBnB before a bit with good feedback to make a booking.

Good idea, except you have to pay for it when making the booking, a high proportion of Hosts have a minimum 2 night stay. Can you see the problem with doing that?

Of all the factors effecting property prices, how many posts now about Airbnb? It’s crazy that people think this tiny percentage of the market will have any significant effect.

hometruths · 09-05-2020 9:28pm

Dav010 wrote: »

I think you are being naive. You understand that to get a prosecution, the LA have to actually find and interview the guests in the property? A listing is not enough. A clampdown on STLs will not be top of the tray, there are far bigger and more important problems in the country.

Again this is an example of people giving STLs far more importance than they deserve. It’s a strange phenomenon.

I guess time will tell who is naive when we finally have a new government.

I am not the only one guilty of this strange phenomenon of people "giving STLs far more importance than they deserve."

Darragh O’Brien is too, and has been for a while. From 2018:

The party has previously introduced detailed legislation aimed at regulating Airbnb and other short term letting platforms, in Dáil Éireann.

“Over the course of 2016, 1,103 homes in Dublin were booked via Airbnb for more than 80 nights consecutively. It has now emerged that over 50% of homes to rent in the city are listed as tourist lets and are therefore not available for long-term letting, “said Deputy O’Brien.

“These latest figures illustrate the need for Government to progress with the regulation of Airbnb and other short term lettings platform before the rental market becomes even more saturated.

http://www.darraghobrien.ie/news/airbnb-regulations-are-required-to-avoid-any-further-loss-of-homes-available-in-the-rental-market

After FG introduced legislation last year he has repeatedly followed up on why the regulations have not been enforced.

To be honest I think it is naive to expect it will be business as usual for airbnb when one of the likeliest contenders for the new housing minister has been banging this drum for over 2 years.

Donald Trump · 09-05-2020 9:32pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Good idea, except you have to pay for it when making the booking, a high proportion of Hosts have a minimum 2 night stay. Can you see the problem with doing that?

Of all the factors effecting property prices, how many posts now about Airbnb? It’s crazy that people think this tiny percentage of the market will have any significant effect.

I'd imagine that if a user booked a place, arrived, was given the key and an official from the LA turned up so that they couldn't stay there, a refund would have to be given.

However, the alternative of just turning up and ringing the doorbell would be easier and more productive.

"Hello, I'd like to speak to the owner of the hosue"
"Sorry, we are just here with Airbnb"
"Oh ok. This is actually an illegal letting. Would you sign this statement for us to confirm that you are staying here and we will allow you to finish your stay"

Graham · 09-05-2020 9:35pm

Mod Note

discussion of STL enforcement/legislation moved from the Property Market thread.

09-05-2020 9:39pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

I'd imagine that if a user booked a place, arrived, was given the key and an official from the LA turned up so that they couldn't stay there, a refund would have to be given.

However, the alternative of just turning up and ringing the doorbell would be easier and more productive.

"Hello, I'd like to speak to the owner of the hosue"
"Sorry, we are just here with Airbnb"
"Oh ok. This is actually an illegal letting. Would you sign this statement for us to confirm that you are staying here and we will allow you to finish your stay"

There is no requirement currently for a refund in the scenario you describe, from Airbnb nor the Government.

Many Airbnb Hosts are not the property owners, but the property owner is the only one who can be prosecuted under the legislation.

You want LA officials to sit outside a property all day until the guest comes back? Good plan.

Graham · 09-05-2020 9:40pm

Dav010 wrote: »

If you are talking about guests cancelling, it depends on the Hosts cancellation policy, you can set that as you wish.

Wasn't the hosts cancellation policy recently overridden by AirBnB's new cancellation policy?

09-05-2020 9:44pm

Graham wrote: »

Wasn't the hosts cancellation policy recently overridden by AirBnB's new cancellation policy?

Only during the Covid restrictions, the poster was referring to cancellations after restrictions are lifted.

Incidentally, that policy and the fact that Airbnb did it without any consideration for their customers/Hosts has let to a lot of Hosts moving to cheaper alternative platforms. Facebook is now a no cost way of advertising/booking STLs, I’m staying with Airbnb because I like the fact that the guest has to pay when booking and the payments are easy to compile for Revenue.

Air BnB [and other platforms] to be effectively outlawed in high demand areas

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