Is America losing its allure?

riclad · 04-06-2020 12:07am

People in New York , LA, call the rest of the country the flyover states fly over them , no need to go there.Irish people used to go to America to get jobs , I think at least before the present crisis, young people could just look on jobs.ie or some other website to get a job
Ireland is a modern country now, we have all the tech the Americans have cable TV, broadband etc I agree there's a big difference between new York, Vegas Texas and California
I'm not sure what America has to offer the average Irish person now unless you want to work in the tech industry or a startup
Since trump came into power he seems to want to stop all froms of immigration to America,
from any country and its harder to get a visa to go there

Electric Sheep · 04-06-2020 3:33pm

kenmc wrote: »

Been to America plenty of times, both business and pleasure including j1. If I never set foot in the place again I would not be the slightest bit bothered - certainly won't go there for pleasure again. Last time I was there I found it hard to get fresh fruit even. Felt queasy the entire time from so much crappy fried food.

They do some amazing beers though, loads of microbreweries. That's about the only thing I like about going there for work trips, and even at that I would do anything not to have to go.

Where in the US did you find it hard to get fresh fruit? Genuinely curions where all you could get was fried food.

I suppose it is possible that you just don't know where to shop, otherwise I can't imagine where you were.

topper75 · 04-06-2020 4:59pm

friendlyfun wrote: »

I think it is definitely losing its allure. People don't have the same safety nets in the US like they have in Ireland, Uk, Norway, Sweden etc. a lot of people would be appalled by their mass gun violence, obesity, failing infrastructure, racial tensions, capital punishment and justice system in general (including for profit prisons).Its clearly a dysfunctional country.

Why look for a safety net when you can instead have a leg up? Why not take opportunities?

If there is dysfunction in the U.S., not much of it is policy-driven. You hear various figures on % absent fathers in the African-American community. I'll let you google them and pick out your own. None of them are low. Engagement with education is low. And as for poor whites in regions like Appalachia etc. why are they not using that infamous white privilege? Why after so much federal input are they still on meth and so forth.

The problem isn't how the land is run. It is how the people engage with it.

America is the land of opportunity but if you are looking for handouts then yeah it wouldn't have much 'allure'. Lots of Irish and other Europeans have a state-dependent mindset built up over decades so well might they turn their noses up at America.

If I was young and the opportunity arose I'd go live in the U.S. in a flash. But I like working and earning.

Bobblehats · 04-06-2020 5:09pm

Like a fancy sequined shirt with a factory sheen that looked good when you bought it. It is losing its lustre

Shelga · 04-06-2020 6:22pm

Can't really write off a whole country of 330 million people, and as others have said, Ireland hasn't exactly had a totally rosy history!

Still though, I definitely find it less appealing than a few years ago, like most of the rest of the western world. And vast swathes of it are just so incredibly dull- small towns that are full of the same big box stores and fast food places, and that's literally it. Of course there are boring places in Ireland too but you're never that far from either something interesting or the coast, and we have a rich history and culture that I just don't feel in some hick town in Georgia.

I'd rather be an hour from London and Europe than a 500 mile drive to the nearest big city or the sea.

NSAman · 04-06-2020 6:38pm

topper75 wrote: »

America is the land of opportunity but if you are looking for handouts then yeah it wouldn't have much 'allure'. Lots of Irish and other Europeans have a state-dependent mindset built up over decades so well might they turn their noses up at America.

If I was young and the opportunity arose I'd go live in the U.S. in a flash. But I like working and earning.

Are there many problems with the USA? Absolutely. Does everything run smoothly and without issue? Absolutely NOT!

BUT... name me one country where everything DOES run smoothly.

American IS the land of opportunity. It has been good to me. I would never have had the chance to build what has been built here in Europe. Innovation, thinking differently and not depending on government assistance to "help", has allowed me to develop things that Europe would never have allowed/encouraged.

The people are more open to "new" ideas. People and Business are much more willing to listen to someone new rather than someone from the "old Boys network" that pervades European group think.

Yes there are major problems with American, societally, socially and governmentally.

Yet, risk here can equal reward and no one begrudges you for trying.

TheBoyConor · 05-06-2020 12:31am

What are those things you developed and built? Are they some sort of environmentally damaging or health damaging thing? related to junk food and gas guzzlers perhaps? Or maybe building car centric urban sprawl?

I cannot help but think that anything done in the USA that is not encouraged in the EU can only be some sort of regressive, exploitative and harmful enterprise that'll be lapped up by red necks.

The problem with the USA is that it is mostly a culture that is highly individualistic and materialistic, encourages greed the attitude is one of get ahead whatever way you can, make money, destroy whatever and whoever you must to succeed and if you do make it big, then fúck everyone and everything else and look down on them as plebs.

i think it is a socially corrupt degenerate nation for the most part. There was Europe before there ever was a USA. It has no real heritage to speak of, the whole place has a synthetic contrived feel to it.

I think it is ironic that they style themselves the "land of the free" when the whole country was built on the back of genocide and an effective extermination of the natives, followed by a few centuries of slavery. It is hardly surprising that the USA started off as colony of Brits, they were fond of that kind of thing.

TheBoyConor · 05-06-2020 12:50am

Electric Sheep wrote: »

Untrue. The company I work for gives 4 months fully paid parental leave to both fathers and mothers.

Choose your employer wisely. It's a big country

Good for you but that is just the goodwill of your company. They could decide to scrap the policy in the morning and leave you without a penny of support or leave.

The point is, in Europe these sort of benefits are regcognised fundamental rights, both at the level of the EU charter and the Constitutions of member states.

Many in america feel it is more important to guarantee a constitutional right to go around carrying guns in public rather than guarantee parents and families some sort of basic rights like maternity leave and support.

A country's character can largely be judged on how it treats its most vulnerable citizens. The does pretty well in those stakes whereas the american system is set up to benefit the powerful and push the vulnerable down.

Mehapoy · 05-06-2020 12:53am

The divergence with Europe, Canada, Australia and NZ has been stark in the last 25 years, it's more like South Africa 2.0 or Israel in many people's eyes now.

Motivator · 05-06-2020 12:58am

TheBoyConor wrote: »

The problem with the USA is that it is mostly a culture that is highly individualistic and materialistic, encourages greed the attitude is one of get ahead whatever way you can, make money, destroy whatever and whoever you must to succeed and if you do make it big, then fúck everyone and everything else and look down on them as plebs.
.

And this is different to Ireland how? You’re telling me this culture hasn’t been rife in Ireland with the top earners and brass necked “power players” in this country for decades?

If what happened here at the end of the Celtic Tiger happened in the US then the likes of Sean Fitzpatrick and all those other cûnts would have been locked up in a heartbeat. We get the piss taken out of us in Ireland but it wouldn’t happen in any other country.

TheBoyConor · 05-06-2020 1:01am

Of course here in Ireland we have the me feiners no doubt about it, but most people look down on that kind of attitutde. But over there in the US it is almost encouraged that that is the way one ought to be. It is an aspiration rather than an aberration.

ILoveYourVibes · 05-06-2020 1:04am

Honestly I would have been one of the ones referring to ireland as a 'kip' etc now i have no urge to even go on a holiday to the states.

05-06-2020 1:06am

Motivator wrote: »

And this is different to Ireland how? You’re telling me this culture hasn’t been rife in Ireland with the top earners and brass necked “power players” in this country for decades?

If what happened here at the end of the Celtic Tiger happened in the US then the likes of Sean Fitzpatrick and all those other cûnts would have been locked up in a heartbeat. We get the piss taken out of us in Ireland but it wouldn’t happen in any other country.

Don't be too sure. The US justice system is pretty broken too, especially when one considers the range of laws added to the books, the interpretation of those laws, and the protections that businesses often receive. On top of that, white collar crimes get dealt with differently, and the actual punishment can often be very different to what we would consider punishment to be... especially when you factor in private run prisons, with their own aims in processing prisoners. There's a lot that goes on that we aren't aware of because it's on a State level rather than receiving national coverage.

ILoveYourVibes · 05-06-2020 1:11am

Motivator wrote: »

And this is different to Ireland how? You’re telling me this culture hasn’t been rife in Ireland with the top earners and brass necked “power players” in this country for decades?

If what happened here at the end of the Celtic Tiger happened in the US then the likes of Sean Fitzpatrick and all those other cûnts would have been locked up in a heartbeat. We get the piss taken out of us in Ireland but it wouldn’t happen in any other country.

It is here. But we don't worship this attitude.

We are hypocrites in saying we don't admire it when it clearly happens. But Americans think this is a good value.

The way they treat service people etc. Their society is in no way egalitarian. Americans consider most people losers and you are only worth talking to if you are rich and successful. Their goal is to get rich and not have to deal with the rest of us. They end up lonely and crazy and having relationships with things like cars etc.

Then they go on 'spiritual journeys' because they realize something is lacking or start reading conspiracy theories in isolation and get even more crazy.

You would be naive to think Fitzpatrick would be locked up in the states. He would president!

GT89 · 05-06-2020 1:23am

The gas guzzling vehicles they drive there. Why does one need a family car with a 5 litre engine and yet all sorts of enviromental taxes are placed in various different European countries.

Electric Sheep · 05-06-2020 2:04am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Americans consider most people losers and you are only worth talking to if you are rich and successful. Their goal is to get rich and not have to deal with the rest of us. They end up lonely and crazy and having relationships with things like cars etc. !

You must have lived in a different America than I do.

ILoveYourVibes · 05-06-2020 2:07am

Electric Sheep wrote: »

You must have lived in a different America than I do.

Everyone says that. No....I just see it for what it is.

The ceo is not going to talk to the cleaning lady ...or know her name.

NSAman · 05-06-2020 3:44am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Everyone says that. No....I just see it for what it is.

The ceo is not going to talk to the cleaning lady ...or know her name.

So Margaret Heffernan knows the cleaning ladies name?

Celelia · 05-06-2020 4:01am

Ye it's obviously not viewed in the positive light it was duh

Brussels Sprout · 05-06-2020 4:12am

topper75 wrote: »

Why look for a safety net when you can instead have a leg up? Why not take opportunities?

If there is dysfunction in the U.S., not much of it is policy-driven. You hear various figures on % absent fathers in the African-American community. I'll let you google them and pick out your own. None of them are low. Engagement with education is low. And as for poor whites in regions like Appalachia etc. why are they not using that infamous white privilege? Why after so much federal input are they still on meth and so forth.

The problem isn't how the land is run. It is how the people engage with it.

America is the land of opportunity but if you are looking for handouts then yeah it wouldn't have much 'allure'. Lots of Irish and other Europeans have a state-dependent mindset built up over decades so well might they turn their noses up at America.

If I was young and the opportunity arose I'd go live in the U.S. in a flash. But I like working and earning.

I think you'd fit in great with that kind of attitude in USA.

Not everyone has the same opportunities or potential for earning. That isn't just down to "laziness", "ignorance" or "lack of ambition". I think most European countries acknowledge this and engage in more redistributive taxation for the good of society as a whole.

The greatest trick that rich Americans ever pulled was to make the poor think that they themselves were "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" and thus never punished parties whose policies clearly favour the very wealthy. This has had a detrimental affect on their own society.

Jim Bob Scratcher · 05-06-2020 4:15am

Great country to live in if you're comfortable financially, if not forget it..

Electric Sheep · 05-06-2020 8:39am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Everyone says that. No....I just see it for what it is.

The ceo is not going to talk to the cleaning lady ...or know her name.

If everyone says that to you, there's a reason.

I Am Nobody · 05-06-2020 9:01am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Everyone says that. No....I just see it for what it is.

The ceo is not going to talk to the cleaning lady ...or know her name.

You obviously haven't seen or experienced much of the US if that is your outlook.The US has much to offer in scenery,history,etc,.But most go to NY,Vegas,and LA where it's all about money,fashion,and bullsh#t.
Most places I've stayed in everyone was always friendly,if not a bit too chatty.

Places like San Antonio with the Alamo,or seeing the sculpture on the mountain at Stone Mountain,GA.Or the Salt Flats in NM.It's places like those that will always have an allure,IMO.

topper75 · 05-06-2020 9:27am

Electric Sheep wrote: »

You must have lived in a different America than I do.

To be fair there are many different Americas. Many young Irish see a TV/movie America (doesn't exist) without ever going there. They see it through a filter of socialist-orientated media such as RTÉ. Soviet TV used to love showing queues outside soup kitchens and telling their audience that this was 'America'. Some more Irish may make a trip to an East Coast city or California and go home again thinking they have seen 'America'.

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

The greatest trick that rich Americans ever pulled was to make the poor think that they themselves were "temporarily embarrassed millionaires"...

You refer to the poor and the rich as though they were permanent castes. How Euro welfare mentality is that! The Americans know a little better.

Ireland has brilliant educational opportunities thankfully. However, huge swathes opt not to use them. They know about the 'safety net' waiting for them. Folks who use the educational opportunity to get on then find their ambition clipped by heavy tax disincentive. This is of course in order to pay for the safety net. Egalitarian they call it.

Wanderer78 · 05-06-2020 9:33am

topper75 wrote:

Ireland has brilliant educational opportunities thankfully. However, huge swathes opt not to use them. They know about the 'safety net' waiting for them. Folks who use the educational opportunity to get on then find their ambition clipped by heavy tax disincentive. This is of course in order to pay for the safety net. Egalitarian they call it.

Jesus you really have bought into all this conservative nonsense, it's clearly obvious that the neoliberal ideology of America is failing dramatically, this really is 'clearly obvious'!

topper75 · 05-06-2020 9:52am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Jesus you really have bought into all this conservative nonsense, it's clearly obvious that the neoliberal ideology of America is failing dramatically, this really is 'clearly obvious'!

I can point to countries and economies that have collapsed in the last few decades but America isn't one. Excuse me I haven't looked at this morning's news!

You talk about conservative nonsense. You only find that here. America doesn't want or need to know about you or your family's economic history when doing business. You provide the service or goods at the right price and you get to shake hands. It tends more to the egalitarian.

In my wanderings through the U.S. I met a lot of poor people. Nice folks and all but there was always some blatant reason for their poverty that they just failed to address as individuals. More often that not that was addiction. Sometimes people had hopeless discipline with the law. I also saw a lot of people do really well. They and their families would have been nothing on this side historically. Welfare kills ambition and just brings more people into welfare.

If there was one thing I would change about America it would be the overreach of the military and unnecessary wars. But in terms of economic fairness - they are streets ahead.

TheBoyConor · 05-06-2020 9:55am

Why don't you go and live there so if it is such a great place?

Wanderer78 · 05-06-2020 9:56am

topper75 wrote:

If there was one thing I would change about America it would be the overreach of the military and unnecessary wars. But in terms of economic fairness - they are streets ahead.

Fcuking hell, what nonsense, the wealthiest country on the planet with the largest disparity between rich and poor, come on now, open your eyes, this is failing badly and dangerously, and not just for the people of America. Fairness, fcuking hell!

topper75 · 05-06-2020 10:42am

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Why don't you go and live there so if it is such a great place?

I'm in my middle years here, married with a mortgage. The Mrs. wouldn't go even though her old man is there. Even if I was young, I still couldn't waltz in there. Some friends did it when younger and did shockingly well. I was delighted for one of those guys in particular because he was going absolutely nowhere here. America brought out the entrepreneur in him. I would love to see a lot of our clever young who are treading water here take the same route.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Fcuking hell, what nonsense, the wealthiest country on the planet with the largest disparity between rich and poor, come on now, open your eyes, this is failing badly and dangerously, and not just for the people of America. Fairness, fcuking hell!

This disparity didn't come about through unfairness though did it? If Ireland has not got the disparity of the U.S. it is because for every lad/lass who set up a business and sought to get on, there are many more ready to put the hand out for welfare that revenue has taken away from the trier. To socialists, this is supposedly fair. They equate poverty with misfortune, determined by no more than the roll of a dice. Individual effort and nous is dismissed as a kind of cheating. If we are looking at a state failing - Ireland will go first. It is all about that Mulitnational taxation jenga block.

cloudatlas · 05-06-2020 10:49am

Since the recession a lot of young people have travelled and made lives in Australia, Canada, Dubai etc., People see those lives on social media and are encouraged to go to those place.

I think America probably has more allure now to people in countries that are emerging like India etc., as it is seen as a place of opportunity.

Drumpot · 05-06-2020 11:09am

Anger after police in Buffalo, New York, shove man (75) to ground
via The Irish Times
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/anger-after-police-in-buffalo-new-york-shove-man-75-to-ground-1.4271496

Seriously, what in the name of god is going on over there? If you watch the video the old mans head bleeds and police tried to report it that he tripped and fell.

I wonder if that country is heading for a massive revolution. For way too long the inequalities and corruption that’s relatively rampant all the way up to politics has been left unchecked. Maybe it needs a proper purge of so many things that are just wrong.

CrankyHaus · 05-06-2020 12:51pm

Drumpot wrote: »

Anger after police in Buffalo, New York, shove man (75) to ground
via The Irish Times
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/anger-after-police-in-buffalo-new-york-shove-man-75-to-ground-1.4271496

Seriously, what in the name of god is going on over there? If you watch the video the old mans head bleeds and police tried to report it that he tripped and fell.

I wonder if that country is heading for a massive revolution. For way too long the inequalities and corruption that’s relatively rampant all the way up to politics has been left unchecked. Maybe it needs a proper purge of so many things that are just wrong.

The London Met did exactly the same thing to Ian Tomlinson in 2011 and he died afterwards. That was in the context of far less violent riots too.
In contrast to the US, where the officers have been suspended without pay, the killing was effectively whitewashed through muddled post-mortems and inconsistent official action.
Yet nobody uses that as evidence that the UK's structure is entirely rotten.

US Policing is far too based on force over consent, and has a legacy of racism. But the policing environment is far more challenging also. A cop gets killed there every week on average. If any country faced those challenges it's policing would not look remotely like what we have in Western Europe.

NSAman · 05-06-2020 1:14pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Why don't you go and live there so if it is such a great place?

The usual response of someone who has not tried.

No place is ideal. Every country has issues and any country I have lived in (Europe Africa and the USA) has issues.

The reason I live here is because Ireland has also got issues, much and all as I love home, it has issues.

Anyone who has travelled and lived abroad can tell you that each person finds their niche in life at different times. It is about the willingness to accept what is wrong and try to make the best of what life throws your way. America for me has thrown me many chances that would never have been thrown my way in Ireland.

You asked me what I built in a previous post! BusinessES. Why could I not have done this in Ireland? The inability and closed shop mentality for new ideas.

That is my experience and all that I can go on. Other people may have different experience and I applaud them for that. That is why we discuss things.

I found my niche here to earn a living for me and mine. To develop and enjoy something I am passionate about and love doing. I was not able to do that in Ireland. Therefore, I am going to say that the USA is not all bad. Yes it has problems, but if you think Ireland does not have problems, you need to take off the colour enhancing glasses.

Is the USA going to be my home forever? I dont know. I miss my family and friends and while I have my own family here, the homesickness still rattles from time to time.

The one thing I do know, I never knock a country completely before experiencing it. I make my mind up having experiencing a place first hand and not from media reports.

ShatterAlan · 05-06-2020 1:35pm

tom_murphy112 wrote: »

Work with a lot of Americans myself and it is amazing to see how they are being duped day in and day out by large corporation, who in return do a lot of political lobbying to keep employees right to a minimum.

Some examples,

- They always complain about the number of Public Holidays we get, I always tell them who's fault is that ??

- If you are a full time employee, you are not guaranteed a fixed number of holidays by law. The company I work for gives US folks about 10 days a year and if you are a contractor, you get no paid holidays. I know few folks in my team, who never take time off because of this (It is one of the large multinational companies with billions of profits every year)

- They always complain about high health insurance cost, yet most are hard core republicans who insist there shouldn't be free health care. Always implying why should I pay for someone else's health care cost.

- Folks can be let go with a week notice and very little severance pay (1 months at max) even if you are with the company for over 10 years!

- How one could pay a waiter or waitress below minimum wage and expect them to make it up via tips, this is one I never understood. But talking to my US team mates, they don't get what is wrong with that.

I honestly think the folks in America, need to fight for more rights to be treated like a human, rather than worrying too much about the government taking their guns away or chlorine in the water turning their frogs gay. But I think our way of thinking is a lot different to most Americans.

The reason they take thisstance is because they can't admit that they are wrong. It's far easier to fool a man than to get him to admit he was fooled. They see changing course even if it's change for the better as a sign of weakness whereas staying the course, all the way to hell, is a sign of "strength and steadfastness". They're idiots.

Lewis_Benson · 05-06-2020 1:45pm

Doesn't look like a nice country to live in....

mr_fegelien · 05-06-2020 2:02pm

I've also heard that prisons in the States are horrendous places to be in unless you are very wealthy. Here and in Europe, they are generally better with much less violence.

ShatterAlan · 05-06-2020 2:55pm

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Surprised they aren’t going to the socialist paradise of Cuba.

One could have a fantastic life in Cuba if the US in their galactic pettiness and bitchiness and sore loserness lifted the sanctions because Cuba had the audacity to kick out the American corporations who were robbing the country blind.

lawred2 · 05-06-2020 2:57pm

mr_fegelien wrote: »

When I first came to Ireland in 2009, many teachers, classmates, and adults always talked about moving to the States in the future for a better life. People even envied me for living there and asked "Why the **** did you come to this kip called Ireland?".

Fast forward 11 years now, it seems the tone has completely changed. Sure, people still go there, but the numbers are fewer. After the mass shootings like Sandy Hook, Las Vegas, Isla Vista, the spying revelations by Snowden, the police brutality etc... has America became a first world nation relegated to third world status?

I worked there for a while and met many many good people... did think heavily about staying there

wouldn't dream of it now

the guns, the anger, the greed and the "culture wars" just turn me right off

It's a big country though - the regional variations are crazy. Massachusetts where I was had a very European feel to the place...

topper75 · 05-06-2020 3:28pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

One could have a fantastic life in Cuba if the US in their galactic pettiness and bitchiness and sore loserness lifted the sanctions because Cuba had the audacity to kick out the American corporations who were robbing the country blind.

And given that those nasty Americans are gone for many decades... they are rich again, right?

Those people who try to make it to Florida across shark-infested waters on rubber tubes, they are merely adrenelin junkies?

The flows of people over the years is somewhat telling I'm afraid and is repeated where ever the hollow credo of marxism holds sway.

ShatterAlan · 05-06-2020 3:33pm

TuringBot47 wrote: »

Has After Hours become a forum relegated to uneducated minds regurgitating media fed opinions but no real world experience ?

Any opinions you might have would be inadmissible in court as hearsay.
You hear all these things from the TV and internet only.

America is the leading example of unregulated capitalism.
Winners will succeed.
Losers will live in poverty, resent and lash out at the rest of society for their own failures.

Middle class American is just fine, people have jobs, nice houses and all the economies of scale that a larger country brings. Apart from being ripped off by mobile, cable and internet providers.

This is utter bullsh1t. Your post is just one big uniformed cliche. I lived in New York for 7 years back in the 90's. Worked in IT and at the age of 28 I was doing ok, salary of $70k a year. I have first hand experience of how it was and I was doing relatively well in the "great Clinton years".

Unregulated capitalism is a disaster that doesn't reward the "winners" and punish the "losers". It rewards the corrupt and exploits the weak. If that's an economic model that you admire then you really ought to take a long hard look at yourself and the direction of your moral compass.

This trope about working hard you will get ahead is a crock. 45% of Americans can't come up with $400 in the event of an emergency. And the middle class is just fine? Really? Most of them are one or two paychecks away from disaster and up to their eyeballs in credit card debt working to pay the interest or minimum stipulation each month.

CrankyHaus · 05-06-2020 3:50pm

topper75 wrote: »

And given that those nasty Americans are gone for many decades... they are rich again, right?

Those people who try to make it to Florida across shark-infested waters on rubber tubes, they are merely adrenelin junkies?

The flows of people over the years is somewhat telling I'm afraid and is repeated where ever the hollow credo of marxism holds sway.

Compare Cuba's development since 1959 to other Latin American states dominated by the US and it's commercial interests. In general it's done okay. Not great, and a lot to criticise. But certainly better than many. No comparably ruinous civil wars, death squads, enormous inequality and consequent rampant crime. That's despite decades of US backed destabilisation attempts, whether through backing violent insurrection or exceptionally harsh trade embargoes.

I'd argue that it would be worse today than if it remained a crony capitalist playground for the Mafia ruled by Batista; and that it would be better if the US was more reasonable towards it.

It's not as simple as Marxism vs Capitalism either. Certain capitalist States in Latin America have done alright, while more Socialist ones like Venezuala under Chavez-Maduro have certainly not.

mariaalice · 05-06-2020 4:18pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

This is utter bullsh1t. Your post is just one big uniformed cliche. I lived in New York for 7 years back in the 90's. Worked in IT and at the age of 28 I was doing ok, salary of $70k a year. I have first hand experience of how it was and I was doing relatively well in the "great Clinton years".

Unregulated capitalism is a disaster that doesn't reward the "winners" and punish the "losers". It rewards the corrupt and exploits the weak. If that's an economic model that you admire then you really ought to take a long hard look at yourself and the direction of your moral compass.

This trope about working hard you will get ahead is a crock. 45% of Americans can't come up with $400 in the event of an emergency. And the middle class is just fine? Really? Most of them are one or two paychecks away from disaster and up to their eyeballs in credit card debt working to pay the interest or minimum stipulation each month.

They have to believe in the dream that's how it works, its the same with the illegal emigrant its the America of the promise not the real America that makes them take the chance.

That is not saying that Ireland is perfect either.

Baggly · 05-06-2020 4:34pm

Mod

Thread being moved to CA / IMHO.

Please read the local charter there.

Is America losing its allure?

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