Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

aloooof · 03-11-2020 6:40pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

agreed, but push that 6 months out to about 14 months

Agreed. Just look at what Rassie achieved in the ~18 months leading up to the RWC.

UAEguy2020 · 03-11-2020 6:59pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Picking a team now based on who you prognosticate will be around for the next world cup is utter madness. You focus on building a winning team and a winning culture and start worrying about the world cup 6 months out. Only when there are marginal selection decisions should it remotely come into play.

Exactly. There is no point in bringing young players into a team that’s rudderless, what needs to happen is we create a winning culture and then gradually bring in youngsters, it’s what we did brilliantly in 2017/2018 before dropping the ball conoletly in 2019.

UAEguy2020 · 03-11-2020 7:02pm

Justaburner wrote: »

Worked for the Saffas alright

Itdidn’t work for South Africa, they won the RWC inspite of this not because of it.

Going back to square one and building a winning culture is what led to them winning the RWC.

clsmooth · 03-11-2020 7:13pm

CMcsporty wrote: »

Nice montage of the good kicks from France and Irelands halfbacks.
https://twitter.com/brettruganalyst/status/1323571432476037125?s=20

On the last point about Murray and Sexton.
At least it was good to see clear, well-run shapes that reduced the decision making load on Murray & Sexton.
e.g. that opening min of the 2nd half.

What i still find the most puzzling is that the execution from Sexton and Murray is so bad....does the system suit them?
If we are trying to play a game our playmakers cant deliver on should we persist with both the players and the system or a simpler version?

I think both will get trotted out again for the England game.
But I would say the coaches must be thinking about some simpler modifications to the attacking shape.

That Ntamack chip was a thing of beauty. Interestingly he was slightly ahead of Fickou when he chipped ahead for Dupont to gather before receiving the pass for his try in 43rd minute. Should that have been called back?

ionadnapokot · 04-11-2020 12:18pm

CMcsporty wrote: »

Nice montage of the good kicks from France and Irelands halfbacks.
https://twitter.com/brettruganalyst/status/1323571432476037125?s=20

On the last point about Murray and Sexton.
At least it was good to see clear, well-run shapes that reduced the decision making load on Murray & Sexton.
e.g. that opening min of the 2nd half.

What i still find the most puzzling is that the execution from Sexton and Murray is so bad....does the system suit them?
If we are trying to play a game our playmakers cant deliver on should we persist with both the players and the system or a simpler version?

I think both will get trotted out again for the England game.
But I would say the coaches must be thinking about some simpler modifications to the attacking shape.

That would be an ecumenical matter!

Kicking though. More attacking kicking is the way to go for this side.

Brilliant
9th min. 3 Phases after another solid scrum just outside the 22 Sexton puts a lovely grubber kick into the 22 for Keenan.
Delighted to see this evolvement.

Brutal
30th min 14v10. 6 Phases after yet another solid scrum just outside the 22 Ireland are awarded a penalty advantage.
Sexton kicks it away (Again!!).
Whats worse is that Ireland are in the 22 and after the 7th phase he immediately decides to kick a garryowen down the blinside wing. It's a poor kick and goes directly into touch.

I've watched this a few times to figure out why he called it so early.
1. We are down to 14 men. 8:23 before Doris returns
2. Penalty is in front of the post
3. 14-10
4. He scans to the left and sees France have the numbers on the openside.

He ultimately made the right decision and kicks the 3 points in a tight game.
What i find frustrating is that he didn't even try to attack the blindside.
Ireland had Henshaw, Aki and Conway v 2 French defenders and would have been allowed at least another 2 phases of pen advantage.

And then doesn't take the 3 points on offer at HT with the score 17v13?

Anyway. Keeping it simple and use more attacking kicks into the 22 would help Ireland instead of relying on these halfbacks to get the ball wide. Not capable of executing and exposing what's in front of them in phase play.

CMcsporty · 04-11-2020 5:53pm

clsmooth wrote: »

That Ntamack chip was a thing of beauty. Interestingly he was slightly ahead of Fickou when he chipped ahead for Dupont to gather before receiving the pass for his try in 43rd minute. Should that have been called back?

It’s Fickou who kicks ahead on the 43rd min... Ntamack and DuPont I think are level with Fickou.
Even if Ntmack was slightly ahead Dupont would have brought him onside.

Some more on the kicking in to or in the 22.
Ireland have conceded allot of tries from these kicks.
Can’t recall them scoring any. Keenan was close!

https://twitter.com/brettruganalyst/status/1323922809781891076?s=21

ionadnapokot · 04-11-2020 6:55pm

aloooof wrote: »

Agreed. Just look at what Rassie achieved in the ~18 months leading up to the RWC.

I dont think England or SA should be used as a RWC model to follow for Ireland.
They have a large pool of good players to pick from.

When we hammered SA in Nov '17 three years later they were able to bring in 8 quality players into their XV
And another 4 onto the bench.

Allot of them had already been capped.
Ireland could only dream of having a few of these players right now.

XV v Eng RWC that didnt play v Ireland '17
Willie le Roux, Cheslin Kolbe, Lukhanyo Am, Makazole Mapimpi, Handre Pollard, Faf de Klerk, Frans Malherbe, Duane Vermeulen.

Bench
Vincent Koch, RG Snyman, Herschel Jantjies & Frans Steyn

OneLungDavy · 04-11-2020 7:19pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

I dont think England or SA should be used as a RWC model to follow for Ireland.
They have a large pool of good players to pick from.

Exactly. We should keep following the Irish model that has served us so well.

Burkie1203 · 05-11-2020 11:02am

https://twitter.com/IrishRugby/status/1324290652977483776?s=19

UAEguy2020 · 05-11-2020 11:05am

ionadnapokot wrote: »

I dont think England or SA should be used as a RWC model to follow for Ireland.
They have a large pool of good players to pick from.

When we hammered SA in Nov '17 three years later they were able to bring in 8 quality players into their XV
And another 4 onto the bench.

Allot of them had already been capped.
Ireland could only dream of having a few of these players right now.

XV v Eng RWC that didnt play v Ireland '17
Willie le Roux, Cheslin Kolbe, Lukhanyo Am, Makazole Mapimpi, Handre Pollard, Faf de Klerk, Frans Malherbe, Duane Vermeulen.

Bench
Vincent Koch, RG Snyman, Herschel Jantjies & Frans Steyn

They are very easy models to follow, what they had come the World Cup was 25 players who they could totally rely on.

To be fair, most of those players should already have been picked for SA but weren’t because Alistair Coetzee was such a hopeless coach.

bilston · 05-11-2020 11:10am

Burkie1203 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/IrishRugby/status/1324290652977483776?s=19

That's quite a disappointing squad for what should be a development tournament.

Still good to see Daly and Burns in there...they both deserve it. And obviously we will get to see James Lowe in an Ireland jersey.

thomond2006 · 05-11-2020 11:12am

Backs (16)

Conor Murray (Munster/Garryowen) 83 caps
Jamison Gibson Park (Leinster) 2 caps
Kieran Marmion (Connacht/Corinthians) 27 caps

Billy Burns (Ulster) uncapped
Ross Byrne (Leinster/UCD) 8 caps
Jonathan Sexton (Leinster/St Mary’s College) 93 caps CAPTAIN

Bundee Aki (Connacht/Galwegians) 28 caps
Chris Farrell (Munster/Young Munster) 10 caps
Robbie Henshaw (Leinster/Buccaneers) 45 caps
Stuart McCloskey (Ulster/Bangor) 3 caps

Andrew Conway (Munster/Garryowen) 23 caps
Shane Daly (Munster/Cork Con) uncapped
Keith Earls (Munster/Young Munster) 84 caps
Hugo Keenan (Leinster/UCD) 2 caps
James Lowe (Leinster) uncapped
Jacob Stockdale (Ulster/Lurgan) 30 caps

Forwards (18)

Dave Heffernan (Connacht/Buccaneers) 3 caps
Rob Herring (Ulster/Ballynahinch) 13 caps
Ronan Kelleher (Leinster/Lansdowne) 3 caps

Ed Byrne (Leinster/UCD) 2 caps
Cian Healy (Leinster/Clontarf) 100 caps

Finlay Bealham (Connacht/Buccaneers) 11 caps
Andrew Porter (Leinster/UCD) 28 caps
John Ryan (Munster/Cork Constitution) 21 caps

Tadhg Beirne (Munster/Lansdowne) 15 caps
Ultan Dillane (Connacht/Corinthians) 17 caps
Iain Henderson (Ulster/Academy) 55 caps
Quinn Roux (Connacht/Galwegians) 12 caps
James Ryan (Leinster/UCD) 28 caps

Will Connors (Leinster/UCD) 2 caps
Caelan Doris (Leinster/UCD) 4 caps
Peter O’Mahony (Munster/Cork Constitution) 69 caps
CJ Stander (Munster/Shannon) 43 caps
Josh van der Flier (Leinster/UCD) 26 caps

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2020/11/05/ireland-squad-start-prep-for-guinness-series-games/

arsebiscuits1 · 05-11-2020 11:18am

Essentially the 6N squad with Lowe and Burns added.

No one been called up to replace Ringrose - it would be good to see a young center called up for experience.

Having said that a lot of the younger centres would benefit more from provincial game time this weekend!

I assume (hope) Baird will be called up if he shakes off the injury in the coming weeks.

Generally when Leinster say "stepping up their rehab" it means a few weeks away yet though

Burkie1203 · 05-11-2020 11:18am

bilston wrote: »

That's quite a disappointing squad for what should be a development tournament.

Still good to see Daly and Burns in there...they both deserve it. And obviously we will get to see James Lowe in an Ireland jersey.

Who should be included?

Clegg · 05-11-2020 11:28am

Conan picking up an injury is disappointing too. He's been in good form whenever he gets a run of game, but he picks up knocks at the most inopportune times. First the World Cup and now this tournament.

yerrahbah · 05-11-2020 11:28am

Disappointed not to see Casey there.

But happy he'll be available for Munster

kingofthekong · 05-11-2020 11:30am

I think it’s pretty clear with current personnel and England and France clearly building some serious squad depth we’re gonna need more youth involved to compete. France are developing some serious players as are England I really hope Farrell starts to filter in guys like Casey, HByrne, Sheehan etc they really could’ve been given a run out against a nothing Georgia team

Paul Smeenus · 05-11-2020 11:40am

kingofthekong wrote: »

I think it’s pretty clear with current personnel and England and France clearly building some serious squad depth we’re gonna need more youth involved to compete. France are developing some serious players as are England I really hope Farrell starts to filter in guys like Casey, HByrne, Sheehan etc they really could’ve been given a run out against a nothing Georgia team

Yes. Sheehan's two Leinster caps leave no doubt that he's ready for an international call-up.

05-11-2020 11:42am

Be good to have Baird and Larmour and Ringrose back available.

Healy
Kelleher
Porter
Baird
Ryan
Doris
Connors
Stander
Murray
Sexton
Stockdale
Aki
Ringrose
Lowe
Larmour

That's a pretty dynamic team all fit.

Paul Smeenus · 05-11-2020 11:48am

Deleted User wrote: »

Be good to have Baird and Larmour and Ringrose back available.

Healy
Kelleher
Porter
Baird
Ryan
Doris
Connors
Stander
Murray
Sexton
Stockdale
Aki
Ringrose
Lowe
Larmour

That's a pretty dynamic team all fit.

Very dynamic. Would be very worried about the lineout and the maul, both of which were poor against France. Swapping in less experienced players to fix it is an interesting approach.

Clegg · 05-11-2020 11:50am

Let's not forget about about Ronan Kelleher. He's a brilliant prospect and was already capped for Ireland after less than 10 senior appearances for Leinster.

Paul Smeenus · 05-11-2020 11:52am

Clegg wrote: »

Let's not forget about about Ronan Kelleher. He's a brilliant prospect and was already capped for

He's in the squad.

Clegg · 05-11-2020 11:55am

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

He's in the squad.

It's a reply to the above conversation on Sheehan. No need to be disappointed at the lack of inclusion of a young hooker in the squad. We already have one.

Paul Smeenus · 05-11-2020 12:14pm

Clegg wrote: »

It's a reply to the above conversation on Sheehan. No need to be disappointed at the lack of inclusion of a young hooker in the squad. We already have one.

Ah, yeah. Fair enough. Need him to usurp Herring.

Paul Smeenus · 05-11-2020 12:18pm

Clegg wrote: »

It's a reply to the above conversation on Sheehan. No need to be disappointed at the lack of inclusion of a young hooker in the squad. We already have one.

To be clear, I agree that it's a frustratingly conservative selection for what is a great opportunity to develop players. Just think the suggestions are getting a bit OTT.

Burkie1203 · 05-11-2020 12:19pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

To be clear, I agree that it's a frustratingly conservative selection for what is a great opportunity to develop players. Just think the suggestions are getting a bit OTT.

Conservative how?

Name the ins and outs you would have?

bilston · 05-11-2020 12:34pm

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Who should be included?

Craig Casey, Harry Byrne and James Hume.

Remember we play Georgia and probably Scotland or Italy in these games.

thomond2006 · 05-11-2020 12:34pm

They'll call up players for the Georgia game. This squad isn't set in stone.

aloooof · 05-11-2020 12:35pm

bilston wrote: »

Casey and H.Byrne...potentially would have had a look at Hume.

Remember we play Georgia and probably Scotland or Italy in these games.

They could still be called in for those games tho, right? It's not like the RWC where you have to submit a squad?

Squidgy Black · 05-11-2020 12:35pm

If Baird wasn't injured I'd imagine he would've made it in, similarly Balacoune would've been in with a shout. Other than that, maybe the likes of Eric O'Sullivan or Tom O'Toole/Jack Aungier in the wider squad, just because of the current situation we have in the front row.

Don't get me wrong it's a decent squad with the likes of Kelleher, Keenan, Daly, Connors and Doris involved, and then of course Heffernan, JGP and Lowe.

bilston · 05-11-2020 12:37pm

aloooof wrote: »

They could still be called in for those games tho, right? It's not like the RWC where you have to submit a squad?

Maybe, the title is squad for Autumn Nations Cup.

But I guess it makes sense to keep players at their provinces as I'm assuming you can't easily release players from camp due to bubbling, so that might explain it. No point bringing in players now that aren't likely to feature for 3 weeks when they can play for their provinces...so I've maybe jumped the gun a bit.

Paul Smeenus · 05-11-2020 12:41pm

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Conservative how?

Name the ins and outs you would have?

Off the top of my head

Eric O'Sullivan - IN
Stuart McCloskey - OUT (if his job is to hold tacklebags or train or start against Georgia, I'd rather Hume got a call-up to the squad to test the waters. I'm sure Leinster fans feel one of their random young centres has earned a call-up)
Quinn Roux - OUT. Thornbury in probably.

Craig Casey is probably better off getting gametime at Munster.

Surely there is a better roll of the dice than John Ryan? Presumably it would be O'Toole if he weren't injured.

Paul Smeenus · 05-11-2020 12:44pm

bilston wrote: »

Maybe, the title is squad for Autumn Nations Cup.

But I guess it makes sense to keep players at their provinces as I'm assuming you can't easily release players from camp due to bubbling, so that might explain it. No point bringing in players now that aren't likely to feature for 3 weeks when they can play for their provinces...so I've maybe jumped the gun a bit.

Actually, maybe this is a factor. With Marshall back and getting back up to speed, it would be good to see Hume get a crack, but maybe the logistics, given Covid, are part of the decision. Maybe.

ionadnapokot · 05-11-2020 1:07pm

yerrahbah wrote: »

Disappointed not to see Casey there.

But happy he'll be available for Munster

Badly missed opportunity short & medium term.

Squad is crying out for the type of energy he brings.
Its a feckin "fizzy cup" tournament
& Cant believe Carty isn't in there.

UAEguy2020 · 05-11-2020 1:28pm

kingofthekong wrote: »

I think it’s pretty clear with current personnel and England and France clearly building some serious squad depth we’re gonna need more youth involved to compete. France are developing some serious players as are England I really hope Farrell starts to filter in guys like Casey, HByrne, Sheehan etc they really could’ve been given a run out against a nothing Georgia team

I’d imagine they will call up some young players from the provinces for that match, there is literally nothing to be gained playing the same squad for that match.

Baird,Casey,H.Byrne off the top of my head, maybe some more depending on how they are getting on.

Burkie1203 · 05-11-2020 1:32pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Off the top of my head

Eric O'Sullivan - IN
Stuart McCloskey - OUT (if his job is to hold tacklebags or train or start against Georgia, I'd rather Hume got a call-up to the squad to test the waters. I'm sure Leinster fans feel one of their random young centres has earned a call-up)
Quinn Roux - OUT. Thornbury in probably.

Craig Casey is probably better off getting gametime at Munster.

Surely there is a better roll of the dice than John Ryan? Presumably it would be O'Toole if he weren't injured.

So a couple of changes would make it not a conservative selection?

Casey will get his shot in 2021.

Roux/Thornbury are not going to get selected ahead of Ryan, Henderson, Beirne and maybe Baird if he gets capped in 2021, if they are all fit so it's not really an issue for me.

Paul Smeenus · 05-11-2020 1:56pm

Burkie1203 wrote: »

So a couple of changes would make it not a conservative selection?

Casey will get his shot in 2021.

Roux/Thornbury are not going to get selected ahead of Ryan, Henderson, Beirne and maybe Baird if he gets capped in 2021, if they are all fit so it's not really an issue for me.

No, that was a few off my head. That would make it "less" conservative. If Roux or Thornbury are not going to get selected of those others, why don't we go for Thornbury?

If you want "not conservative", tell Healy, Murray, POM, Herring, Aki, Earls we'll see them come the Six Nations. Would add Sexton to that list but he's captain.

sydthebeat · 05-11-2020 2:00pm

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Conservative how?

Name the ins and outs you would have?

its incredibly conservative

kingofthekong · 05-11-2020 2:07pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Yes. Sheehan's two Leinster caps leave no doubt that he's ready for an international call-up.

Against Georgia....even Ulster in the pro14 might be a tougher challenge then Georgia...lol

kingofthekong · 05-11-2020 2:10pm

If they call up some fringe players for the georgia game I'll be happy if the plan is to give them more gametime for the provinces and then a call up for georgia then happy days

Paul Smeenus · 05-11-2020 2:16pm

kingofthekong wrote: »

If they call up some fringe players for the georgia game I'll be happy if the plan is to give them more gametime for the provinces and then a call up for georgia then happy days

Agreed on that - though as Bilston points out - swapping players in and out might not be straighforward.

Dubinusa · 05-11-2020 2:20pm

bilston wrote: »

That's quite a disappointing squad for what should be a development tournament.

Still good to see Daly and Burns in there...they both deserve it. And obviously we will get to see James Lowe in an Ireland jersey.

Agreed! Great time to bring in more young lads.

Dubinusa · 05-11-2020 2:28pm

Farrell needs to give RB the 1st crack at oh. We won't know how he's going to be if he only gets 10 or so minutes at the end of a test match! Start Sexton on the bench? Wales are struggling atm and I think it's a great opportunity to start at least 1 sub 9 or 10.
He wouldn't have the liathroids to start subs at both half back positions? Would he?

Niallof9 · 05-11-2020 2:33pm

this is absolute dire stuff. if he took a little bit of a chance, people would give him some leeway. this will end in tears as he and some of the older lads drag the arse out of it. a nothing tournament ripe for some risk taking.

Clegg · 05-11-2020 2:38pm

Other than Rhys Ruddock and John Cooney there's no notable omission from the squad really. For the moment I think Cqasey and H Byrne are better off with their provinces where they're guaranteed to start.

And on Ruddock I really don't know what he has to do to get a call up. He's in fantastic form. But he's been passed over by Schmidt before and now by Andy Farrell. There's obviously something they don't like about his game, but for the life of me I don't see it.

shootermacg · 05-11-2020 2:38pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

Agreed! Great time to bring in more young lads.

I think the bare minimum for an international cap should be that you are a starter for your Province. There's a lot to be said for at least 2 seasons starting at club level before progressing to International.

Rugby is a game of dark arts and well hidden cheap shots, and at international level you have the best practitioners. Let the young guys deal with that type of bastardry at club level before progressing if they're good enough.

Some of the younger players show weaknesses in their game once they play international, this does nobody any good. Just look how it currently affects the team, we are poor in the backfield and in our lineout.

Throwing young guy at the problem isn't going to make it go away, it's going to make it worse.

Niallof9 · 05-11-2020 2:42pm

sure, whatever lads convince yourselves of that. check out some of the other squads.

we've been here before

its a perfect opportunity to take a chance on some of the lads. any number of Ulster players, Casey, a good chunk of leinster players.

Instead as many predicted we'll see the usuals. and in about 12 months we will be in a real spot of bother. its like a never ending ****ing circle of this. we did it with players in the EOS time, under Kidney, under Joe, we did it with Best and we're at it again.

Irish rugby is incredibly conservative. Most of the openings come from injuries and whatnot. and then we swing wildly the other way when some talent is shown giving them central contracts etc leading to these guys never getting dropped.

Burkie1203 · 05-11-2020 2:44pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

No, that was a few off my head. That would make it "less" conservative. If Roux or Thornbury are not going to get selected of those others, why don't we go for Thornbury?

If you want "not conservative", tell Healy, Murray, POM, Herring, Aki, Earls we'll see them come the Six Nations. Would add Sexton to that list but he's captain.

7 players out of a what, ~35 man squad makes it conservative?

Daly Keenan Connors Doris Lowe JGP are all new to the squad effectively.

Kelleher Baird both injured but likely would be there

Farrell named several players for development purposes in Spring pre-covid and has continued to bring in young players. And pick them. For 6n games which had a trophy hanging on the results.

UAEguy2020 · 05-11-2020 2:44pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

Farrell needs to give RB the 1st crack at oh. We won't know how he's going to be if he only gets 10 or so minutes at the end of a test match! Start Sexton on the bench? Wales are struggling atm and I think it's a great opportunity to start at least 1 sub 9 or 10.
He wouldn't have the liathroids to start subs at both half back positions? Would he?

Exactly

Whatever people think of RB as a player he definitely won’t be out of his depth at this level, it’s just a question of weather he can make a difference or not. After what happened with Marmion/Murray in the England game in 2017 I’m open minded on most players.

Buer · 05-11-2020 2:49pm

For context, this is the team we selected for the last visit of Georgia to Dublin. We beat them by 40+. Two debutants (Ryan and Foley), a handful of guys with single digit cap totals, a handful of wider squad players and 2-3 experienced old heads to pull it together. I would want much the same this time.

Felix Jones
Craig Gilroy
Darren Cave
Gordon D'Arcy
Simon Zebo
Ian Madigan
Eoin Reddan (c)
Dave Kilcoyne
Richardt Strauss
Mike Ross
Dave Foley
Mike McCarthy
Dominic Ryan
Tommy O'Donnell
Robbie Diack

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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