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Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland

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    #332
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Big issue I see here is gai are leasing the site.

    If big money is put in on chargers and upgrades and they lose the depot or hell leave at end of contract, what happens then.... I can see db been the safest option as all depot are fixed as in not going anywhere.


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    #333
    GT89
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    Big issue I see here is gai are leasing the site.

    If big money is put in on chargers and upgrades and they lose the depot or hell leave at end of contract, what happens then.... I can see db been the safest option as all depot are fixed as in not going anywhere.

    Even if the GAI lose the contract for the routes it would be logical to keep the Ballymount site in use as a bus garage. Quite a lot of money went into the fitting out the place with workshops, bus wash etc. I'd imagine so it would be likely that the incumbent operator would keep the site as it would be a lot cheaper and easier to use an existing depot rather than opening a new depot from scratch.

    If the routes go back to DB it would be logical for them to have ankther depot to facilitate an expansion in service which has been seen over the last couple of years.


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    #334
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,491 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    GT89 wrote: »
    So I'm guessing from what you are saying the engine on these hybrids is similar to a diesel train or a ship if it's a diesel generator powering an electric motor.

    Yep, exactly.

    On the topic of the GAI depot, given that fleets of buses, coaches, vans and trucks are likely to be going electric over the next decade, I'd say charging infrastructure installed there would be seen as a valuable asset for any company taking it over, either DB, another PSO operator, private operator or even Van/Haulage companies.

    Having said that, I'd be shocked if GAI aren't around for the long haul. Them taking over BE routes in addition to DB routes says to me that they are here for the long haul. If anything I expect them to expand in time.


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    #335
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users Posts: 8,318 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    Re: Single deck electric buses.

    I have been thinking for a while about how the EV single deckers are being re-charged while it's in the depot. I'm seeing variant of the Volvo 7900 that have a very big charging dock with a big claw type mechanism over it while it acts as a power source to recharge the battery of the bus while it's recharging on the rooftop.

    It's this type of machine that I'm talking about which is shown here that recharges this single deck bus in the depot. Is that type of machine to recharge the bus, shown above, either optional or mandatory to re-charge the Volvo 7900 & other single deck electric buses like the ADL Enviro 200EV?

    Would there a big price difference in purchasing either the Volvo 7900 & the ADL Enviro 200EV?

    Will Volvo Buses provide the Volvo 7900 if they win the tender from the NTA?

    TIA.


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    #336
    GT89
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    bk wrote: »
    Yep, exactly.

    On the topic of the GAI depot, given that fleets of buses, coaches, vans and trucks are likely to be going electric over the next decade, I'd say charging infrastructure installed there would be seen as a valuable asset for any company taking it over, either DB, another PSO operator, private operator or even Van/Haulage companies.

    Having said that, I'd be shocked if GAI aren't around for the long haul. Them taking over BE routes in addition to DB routes says to me that they are here for the long haul. If anything I expect them to expand in time.

    Well if Arriva for example were to say beat Go-Ahead to the contract in the years to come. I can't any logic in them opening an entirely new depot when there's a depot there ready to be used. But yes you are right Go-Ahead are likely here for the long term or at least aim to be considering the NTA are moving away from net cost direct award contracts to CIE companies and toward gross cost tendering in the provision of PSO bus services.


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    #337
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,491 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    dublinman1990 wrote: »
    Re: Single deck electric buses.

    I have been thinking for a while about how to re-charge the EV single deckers while it's in the depot. I'm seeing variant of the Volvo 7900 that have a very big charging dock with a big claw type mechanism over it while it acts as a power source to recharge the battery of the bus while it's recharging on the rooftop.

    It's this type of machine that I'm talking about which is shown here that recharges this single deck bus in the depot. Is that type of machine to recharge the bus, shown above, either optional or mandatory to re-charge the Volvo 7900 & other single deck electric buses like the ADL Enviro 200EV?

    No, the NTA have specified in the tender a pretty standard 150kW CCS 2 system for charging.

    Basically the same as what you see on most EV cars these days. A cable that runs from the charger to the vehicle that you plug in yourself almost like a petrol pump.

    The above pylon style charging is a different concept. You basically have less batteries in the bus, maybe only about 30 to 50km range, but you have those pylons along the route where you can recharge it in 15 minutes.

    The operating model that the NTA is going for seems to be charging overnight in the depot and enough range for a full days operation without needing to charge outside the depot.

    To be honest I feel the Pylon approach is a poor and expensive operating model, that only made sense when batteries are very expensive. The full days range approach is better and the obvious choice with dropping battery costs.

    Imagine the planning objections to such pylons outside the depot and the safety and maintenance cost with pylons like this spread throughout the city!!

    BTW Volvo's naming of their bus is a bit confusing. They have an old Vovlo 7900e that used Pylon charging, but they also now have a new 7900e (2019) models the support up to 250kWh of batteries and standard 150kw CCS charging, exactly like what the NTA are looking for, so that would be a runner. BTW I assume the 7900e out at the airport is one of the latter.
    dublinman1990 wrote: »
    Would there a big price difference in purchasing either the Volvo 7900 & the ADL Enviro 200EV?

    No idea
    dublinman1990 wrote: »
    Will Volvo Buses provide the Volvo 7900 if they win the tender from the NTA?

    They could do, it seems to match the NTA's requirements.

    Another option is that next year, they are partnering with MCV to do a MCV bodied 7900e.

    Also reading the tender docs, they have posted some replies to questions. No names are given in these files, but I feel based on some of the questions/answers, Wrightbus might tender as part of a consortium. So perhaps a Wrightbus bodied Volvo7900e is a possibility.


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    #338
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users Posts: 8,318 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    That's great bk. Thanks for your reply.

    It's good to know that the EV chargers can be used to power an EV bus for the long term. It's a hell of a lot easier & cheaper to install them at ground level & then to re-charge them like a normal vehicle. I suppose you would need specialized areas to re-charge this bus if pylons were used around on the various PSO bus routes here that would be hanging over the bus with the lack of proper technology in place during the initial stages of the buses manufacturing process.

    The likelihood that Wrights will go into a potential consortium to build the Volvo 7900 e with other bus builders may sound like a good possibility.

    But Wrights as we all know haven't had a good time with their recent financial reputation being in tatters with them going into administration in Ballymena last year. I would assume that a consortium to build this bus with other companies with the potential for it to go into the Irish market is a more cost effective idea to keep them going in the bus building business for a while longer. And Covid also has provided a big challenge to bus building manufacturers like Wrights in continuing with orders coming in & maybe drying up from transport operators & authorities while their factories around the world remained closed during the height of the pandemic including in NI. ADL had to put out a lot of redundancies in their factories recently because of reduced demand arising from Covid.

    Do Wrights have lots of orders continuing to come in their business before Covid?


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    #339
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    dublinman1990 wrote: »
    That's great bk. Thanks for your reply.

    It's good to know that the EV chargers can be used to power an EV bus for the long term. It's a hell of a lot easier & cheaper to install them at ground level to charge them like a normal vehicle. I suppose you would need specialized areas to re-charge this bus if it was using a pylon that is over hanging the bus with the lack of proper technology in place during the initial stages of the buses manufacturing process.

    The likelihood that Wrights will go into a potential consortium to build the Volvo 7900 sounds like a good possibility.

    But Wrights as we all know haven't had a good time with their recent financial reputation being in tatters with them going into administration in Ballymena around December/January just gone out. I would assume that a consortium to build this bus with other companies with the potential for it to go into the Irish market is a more cost effective idea to keep them going in the bus building business for a while longer.

    And Covid also has provided a big challenge to bus building manufacturers like Wrights in continuing with orders coming in & maybe drying up from transport operators & authorities while their factories around the world remained closed during the height of the pandemic including in NI. ADL had to put out a lot of redundancies in their factories recently because of reduced demand arising from Covid.

    Do Wrights have lots of orders continuing to come in their business before Covid?

    Wright's is gone in the sense it under jcb now as they bought it up....

    I honestly believe it was a big scam with the previous set up and money pumped out to the church set up by one of the Wright's..... Millions given under charity status even though the company was struggling....
    Nuts


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    #340
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    dublinman1990 wrote: »
    The likelihood that Wrights will go into a potential consortium to build the Volvo 7900 e with other bus builders may sound like a good possibility.
    bk wrote: »
    Another option is that next year, they are partnering with MCV to do a MCV bodied 7900e.

    Also reading the tender docs, they have posted some replies to questions. No names are given in these files, but I feel based on some of the questions/answers, Wrightbus might tender as part of a consortium.
    So perhaps a Wrightbus bodied Volvo 7900e is a possibility.

    I think that people are seriously misunderstanding the Volvo product range here and are coming to very inaccurate conclusions and then deriving some ideas from those conclusions that are complete non runners.

    The Volvo 7900 is not a bus chassis, it is complete bus itself which is exclusively bodied on either the Volvo B5LH, Volvo B5L (including those in Singapore), Volvo B9L, Volvo B9LA or built as a full integral vehicle as in the case of a 7900E rather than a traditional body on chassis.

    It is true that Volvo are looking to offer an electric chassis option in the future for the UK and Ireland market, but there has been no announcement as to what this might be called, but it will not be the 7900E, which will always be a full Volvo product. In the left hand drive market, Volvo have launched a self charging hybrid chassis called the B5L S-Charge.


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    #341
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,491 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    devnull wrote: »
    I think that people are seriously misunderstanding the Volvo product range here and are coming to very inaccurate conclusions and then deriving some ideas from those conclusions that are complete non runners.

    The Volvo 7900 is not a bus chassis, it is complete bus itself which is exclusively bodied on either the Volvo B5LH, Volvo B5L (including those in Singapore), Volvo B9L, Volvo B9LA or built as a full integral vehicle as in the case of a 7900E rather than a traditional body on chassis.

    It is true that Volvo are looking to offer an electric chassis option in the future for the UK and Ireland market, but there has been no announcement as to what this might be called, but it will not be the 7900E, which will always be a full Volvo product. In the left hand drive market, Volvo have launched a self charging hybrid chassis called the B5L S-Charge.

    All true. Perhaps I wasn't clear in how I worded.

    Obviously the 7900E is a Volvo integral. So all Volvo Vehicle. It is a modified B5LH chassis.

    It now looks like they are starting to use this electric chassis with others body builders. Volgren in Australia have been announced last month for 900 buses, as have MCV.

    In fairness I think most people here understand the difference between an integral and a body on chassis and the long history of Wrights building buses on Volvo Chassis. So when I said Volvo 7900e using Wrights body, I'd assume most here would understand what that meant. Using the chassis, drive train, electrical system found in the 7900e (with perhaps some tweaks) but with a Wrights/MCV bodywork up top.

    Part of the cause of confusion is that Volvo haven't really named this new Electric chassis offering yet. Though I've seen mention of it called Volvo BE, but nothing official. Thus the awkward naming.

    Having said that we could see Volvo make two different offers here:
    - A Volvo 7900e integral and
    - A Wrights or MCV bodied with a "Volvo Electric Chassis".

    Similar to how both a Wrights integral and a Vovlo Chassis + Wrights body were offered for the Hybrid double decker bid.

    Of course this is all just guessing on my part. Volvo might have no interest at all.
    punisher5112 wrote: »
    Wright's is gone in the sense it under jcb now as they bought it up....

    Yes, they are now owned by Bamford Bus Company, but still seem to trade as Wrights.


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    #342
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    bk wrote: »
    It now looks like they are starting to use this electric chassis with others body builders. Volgren in Australia have been announced last month for 900 buses, as have MCV.
    I notice that a lot of local manufacture of transport vehicles tends to happen in Australia using partnerships with Aussie companies or using Aussie subsidiaries. Is it a trade policy thing, where Volvo just wouldn't have been able to sell externally produced buses into Aus without hassle?


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    #343
    GT89
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    dowlingm wrote: »
    I notice that a lot of local manufacture of transport vehicles tends to happen in Australia using partnerships with Aussie companies or using Aussie subsidiaries. Is it a trade policy thing, where Volvo just wouldn't have been able to sell externally produced buses into Aus without hassle?

    Could be to do with the costs of importing a bus from Europe to Australia


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    #344
    GT89
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    Would an electric version of Mercedes Citaro be an option


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    #345
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,491 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    GT89 wrote: »
    Would an electric version of Mercedes Citaro be an option

    Yep, an eCitaro exists.

    Interestingly they offer two battery techs, one being Solid State Batteries, which is the next frontier for battery tech. Though I'm not sure if they are really delivering buses with these batteries yet.


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    #346
    p_haugh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,125 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    As seen on the Irish Road Passenger Transport Forum, dublinbuses.com has stated that the new hybrids are expected to be delivered to Dublin Bus and will be type-classed AP. Will be on routes 4, 9, 122 & 123 to start supposedly.


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    #347
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Thought they'd be called AH as in h for hybrid.


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    #348
    GT89
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    Thought they'd be called AH as in h for hybrid.

    Probably to distinguish them from the current AH class which are of a different bodywork


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    #349
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,491 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    GT89 wrote: »
    Probably to distinguish them from the current AH class which are of a different bodywork

    Plus different Hybrid system, battery size, plug, etc.

    It is a pity that the AH is already taken.


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    #350
    GT89
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    bk wrote: »
    Plus different Hybrid system, battery size, plug, etc.

    It is a pity that the AH is already taken.

    I thought they were the same just different bodywork.


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    #351
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Which one is the Ah ?


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    #352
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,491 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    GT89 wrote: »
    I thought they were the same just different bodywork.

    No, the AH were Enviro400H, these new AP will be Enviro400ER

    Actually wouldn't ER not be better then AP?

    Note the ER rather then H. The H are a normal hybrid, while the ER are a plug-in hybrid system. The 400H have just a 1kWh battery and no plug, while the ER has a bigger 32kWh battery and a plug to charge it up.

    The ER can run in pure EV mode for a few km, controlled by GPS, where with the H the Diesel engine has to always run.

    Some pretty important differences in drive train tech.


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    #353
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users Posts: 8,318 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    Brilliant. The 4 is my local route. I cannot wait to see them on there soon.


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    #354
    JC02
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭JC02


    I'll be ready to take one on the 123.


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    #355
    GT89
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    Will DB be keeping the WHs, VHs and AHs once the APs enter service?


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    #356
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users Posts: 8,318 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    Will the APs come with the new white LED panels?


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    #357
    p_haugh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,125 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    dublinman1990 wrote: »
    Will the APs come with the new white LED panels?
    One would hope so


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    #358
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,249 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    GT89 wrote: »
    Will DB be keeping the WHs, VHs and AHs once the APs enter service?

    They'll phase out the oldest buses in their inventory.


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    #359
    john boye
    Registered Users Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭john boye


    GT89 wrote: »
    Will DB be keeping the WHs, VHs and AHs once the APs enter service?

    I'd have thought they'll leave. Keeping 3 small sub-fleets all with different tech etc doesn't sound cost effective.


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    #360
    GT89
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    john boye wrote: »
    I'd have thought they'll leave. Keeping 3 small sub-fleets all with different tech etc doesn't sound cost effective.

    They used to have ten DTs which were mehanically speaking completely different from every other bus in the fleet. I hope they keep them and not sell them on as they are perfectly good and relatively new buses. I'm still not why they bought them instead of just getting demonstrators.


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    #361
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users Posts: 8,318 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    I would have thought that other bus companies in the UK would be lined up to take the AHs if they were due to go back to ADL soon.

    That would certainly apply in normal circumstances, but during Covid-19, it may be that our circumstances at the moment could change things at the last minute from the NTA's preferences in their leasing contracts with these manufacturers during a severe worldwide pandemic.

    Is there a legal stipulation contained in the leasing contracts between ADL, Wrights & the NTA to state what must be done when the hybrid bus trial is concluded?

    I mean Wrightbus are still trading in NI although with Jo Bamford as the new owner. It may be possible that other operators based in the UK thinking about ordering newer buses with hybrid technology from Wrights may want to take up the VH's & WH's on their new trials because they would want to trial the newer technology on them as a way of reducing greenhouse emissions arising from climate change within their company.

    Before Covid-19 ever came here; there were some initial problems with the brake pads not working properly & breaching the zero emissions on the Wright hybrids tailpipe. Those moves done by Wrights had damaged their chances of winning the new hybrid bus contract from the NTA.


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