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M40 motorway redesignation and demand management system [works ongoing]

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12467…12

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    #92
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,500 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    This doc (page 79) confirms that motorway status may not be possible due to the road being below standard.


    http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/strategic-planning/strategic-reports/N40-Demand-Management-Study-June-2017.pdf


    Road needs widening but they don't want to spend the money.


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    #93
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    There's a huge amount of detail on a plan for tolling the N40 by distance traveled in that document.

    That's going to be politically interesting!


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    #94
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,351 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    EdgeCase wrote: »
    There's a huge amount of detail on a plan for tolling the N40 by distance traveled in that document.

    That's going to be politically interesting!

    All of which will be ignored for political reasons

    Tolling the N40 isn't an option until at least the North Ring and the M71-M28 link are built. By that stage it'll likely be not worth pursuing


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    #95
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    I'd argue a lot of the M50 falls well below motorway standards too though. I'd say it could be passed, particularly if it's limited to 100km/h for most of its older parts.


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    #96
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users Posts: 5,855 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    I think it could be too. Vernon mount is a bit of a problem, you could just stick the end of motorway signs here https://goo.gl/maps/zei2EcfJdLw, but then you can't access Vernon Mount without going on the M40. Is that the biggest deal in the world though? Is it a deal breaker?


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    #97
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,546 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Chris_5339762 wrote: »
    I think it could be too. Vernon mount is a bit of a problem, you could just stick the end of motorway signs here https://goo.gl/maps/zei2EcfJdLw, but then you can't access Vernon Mount without going on the M40. Is that the biggest deal in the world though? Is it a deal breaker?

    Access to Vernon amount could be rerouted to the gate above the Circle K Service Station on the Grsnge Road. There’s an old access road up there.


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    #98
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,787 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    AugustusMinimus wrote: »
    A lot of consiltatation required given how many users will resultsntly be banned.

    how many users though
    -cyclists & pedestrians? (it's patently unsuitable and not designed to accommodate them anyway).
    -Farm machinery? hardly a huge issue given where it is.
    -Learner drivers? they're not supposed to be driving without a qualified driver anyway.


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    #99
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,072 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    loyatemu wrote: »
    how many users though
    -cyclists & pedestrians? (it's patently unsuitable and not designed to accommodate them anyway).
    -Farm machinery? hardly a huge issue given where it is.
    -Learner drivers? they're not supposed to be driving without a qualified driver anyway.
    1.
    It may not have been designed CORRECTLY to accommodate pedestrians and cyclists, but as all have said the original design should have been, in an ideal world. Probably via designation of an alternate route or greenway etc.
    2.
    You'd be surprised how much farm machinery goes through the tunnel. The alternate route is to bring farm machinery through the city or on the ferry.
    3.
    Learner drivers can't just be banned because of an unrelated fact/regulation!

    Across all of the above three groupings the same simple question applies: what is the alternative route? And presently the answer is that the alternative route is inappropriate.

    I'm not a fan of this approach of "ban other road users so cars can get there faster". It's short-sighted and bound to failure. Frequently there's little consideration given to vehicles other than cars. We can do better. And I say all this as someone who uses a car as their primary mode of transport.
    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    This doc (page 79) confirms that motorway status may not be possible due to the road being below standard.
    http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/strategic-planning/strategic-reports/N40-Demand-Management-Study-June-2017.pdf

    Reading this document is relatively entertaining, as they state that banning cyclists and pedestrians from the N40 will increase the number of people using public transport, cycling and walking.


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    #100
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,546 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    loyatemu wrote: »
    how many users though
    -cyclists & pedestrians? (it's patently unsuitable and not designed to accommodate them anyway).
    -Farm machinery? hardly a huge issue given where it is.
    -Learner drivers? they're not supposed to be driving without a qualified driver anyway.

    I agree with all your points but due process needs to be followed.


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    #101
    EnzoScifo
    Registered Users Posts: 409 ✭✭EnzoScifo


    loyatemu wrote: »
    -Farm machinery? hardly a huge issue given where it is.
    .

    You'd be surprised at the amount of times I've seen tractors coast along at 50kmph in the middle lane of N40 Eastbound before the Kinsale Road flyover in the evening rush hour.


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    #102
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,072 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    EnzoScifo wrote: »
    You'd be surprised at the amount of times I've seen tractors coast along at 50kmph in the middle lane of N40 Eastbound before the Kinsale Road flyover in the evening rush hour.

    Yep.
    Again, I don't think this is all down to "fecklessness" on the part of the drivers - the reason is often that the alternate routes are even more inappropriate.

    As has been stated the N40 - and other roads in the Cork area - were created at a HQDC standard, not a motorway standard, as no design consideration was given to some road users. It wasn't in the brief, likely because nobody foresaw the current usage levels.


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    #103
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,787 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    EnzoScifo wrote: »
    You'd be surprised at the amount of times I've seen tractors coast along at 50kmph in the middle lane of N40 Eastbound before the Kinsale Road flyover in the evening rush hour.

    if they can do 50km/h then they're allowed on the motorway anyway.


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    #104
    Cork Trucker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    EnzoScifo wrote: »
    You'd be surprised at the amount of times I've seen tractors coast along at 50kmph in the middle lane of N40 Eastbound before the Kinsale Road flyover in the evening rush hour.
    loyatemu wrote: »
    if they can do 50km/h then they're allowed on the motorway anyway.

    Here's the list
    Provisional licence holders.
    Motorcycles under 50cc.
    Agricultural vehicles.
    Vehicles carrying oversized loads (anything that causes you to take up extra lanes – when exceptions are made, they're often escorted)
    Pedestrians.
    Cyclists.
    Horse riders.
    Mobility scooters.


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    #105
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,546 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Can a tractor capable of a minimum of 50kph use a motorway if it is being used for construction and not agricultural use?


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    #106
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,845 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    AugustusMinimus wrote: »
    Can a tractor capable of a minimum of 50kph use a motorway if it is being used for construction and not agricultural use?

    There's no such distinction. ANY vehicle capable of traveling at 50 KPH, provided the driver has a full licence, the engine is above 50cc and it has pneumatic tyres can use a motorway.


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    #107
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,834 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    It has to be using road diesel to be legally capable of that speed. Agri diesel is legally restricted


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    #108
    quietsailor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭quietsailor


    DerMutt wrote: »
    The latest email update on the N40 ITS:
    • An Intelligent Transport System is proposed for the N40 Cork South Ring Road area. The system will include closed circuit TV coverage of the road network, permanent electronic Variable Message Signs, provision of real time Journey Time Information etc.
    • On completion, the system will allow remote monitoring of the entire network, greatly improve incident response times and the availability of real time Journey Time Information will allow motorists to plan their journeys in advance. More detailed information on this system will be circulated in future updates.
    • The area covered will include the N40 itself, approaches to the N40 including N28 Cork/Ringaskiddy road, N27 Cork City to airport road and N71 Cork/Bandon road. The N8, M8 and N25 approaches to the Dunkettle Interchange will also be covered.
    • Works to install the necessary communication ducting are already underway. Works to identify ground conditions at the various ITS installation points will be getting underway in the coming days.
    • In order to minimise disruption to traffic, virtually all works during this Phase will be carried out under night-time working. We expect these Phase 1 Works to be completed early in December 2018

    I think this work has started on the Cork Bandon road already, there are concrete plinths being installed opposite each other on both sides of the road from the halfway roundabout inwards.


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    #109
    Kevwoody
    Registered Users Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭Kevwoody


    quietsailor wrote:
    I think this work has started on the Cork Bandon road already, there are concrete plinths being installed opposite each other on both sides of the road from the halfway roundabout inwards.


    As far as I know that's a bridge/culvert maintenance program, it's being carried out all over Munster by Cumnor from Blarney.
    Basically anywhere there is pipework crossing the road a concrete area is being constructed at the roadside.


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    #110
    quietsailor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭quietsailor


    Kevwoody wrote: »
    As far as I know that's a bridge/culvert maintenance program, it's being carried out all over Munster by Cumnor from Blarney.
    Basically anywhere there is pipework crossing the road a concrete area is being constructed at the roadside.

    That would make sense, thank you


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    #111
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,351 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Portable VMS now at J18 on the M8 showing journey times to N40 J6 and some other destination that I didn't quite catch.

    The permanent VMS erected there but inactive will likely be activated shortly to replace this.


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    #112
    kub
    Registered Users Posts: 6,528 ✭✭✭kub


    There are 2 others, one is at the Little Island junction proclaiming the journey time to Kinsale Road roundabout.

    The other is just after Kinsale Road roundabout heading East proclaiming the journey time to Little Island.

    How these things can be correct always puzzles me.


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    #113
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,351 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    kub wrote: »
    There are 2 others, one is at the Little Island junction proclaiming the journey time to Kinsale Road roundabout.

    The other is just after Kinsale Road roundabout heading East proclaiming the journey time to Little Island.

    How these things can be correct always puzzles me.

    When fully operational, and they could be fully setup now, there will be cameras at the sign that tells you the journey time and cameras at the destination on the sign. The cameras will read number plates at the sign and the destination and display the average journey time between the two


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    #114
    kub
    Registered Users Posts: 6,528 ✭✭✭kub


    Thank you that makes perfect sense. Also should they ever decide to clog up the city by tolling the tunnel, then they will have the necessary infrastructure in situ.


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    #115
    Cork Trucker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    kub wrote: »
    Also should they ever decide to clog up the city by tolling the tunnel, then they will have the necessary infrastructure in situ.

    I reckon this is in theory, part of the plan to do exactly that.


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    #116
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,351 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    There will be no toll on the Jack Lynch Tunnel until there is a functional orbital route of the city and an additional motorway crossing of the Lee.

    Eventually in the future when there is a Glanmire-Killeens-Ballincollig-Ballinhassig-Ballygarvan-Ringaskiddy route the existing N40 will likely be multipoint tolled from Bishopstown to the JLT. That's a long way down the road though.


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    #117
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,546 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    marno21 wrote: »
    There will be no toll on the Jack Lynch Tunnel until there is a functional orbital route of the city and an additional motorway crossing of the Lee.

    Eventually in the future when there is a Glanmire-Killeens-Ballincollig-Ballinhassig-Ballygarvan-Ringaskiddy route the existing N40 will likely be multipoint tolled from Bishopstown to the JLT. That's a long way down the road though.

    I can’t see it happening. Local traffic on the south side of the city is hugely dependent on the SRR. Traffic would be gridlocked if you dumped even 30% of the traffic into the local road system.

    It would also be political suicide. People would go bezerk.


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    #118
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    AugustusMinimus wrote: »
    I can’t see it happening. Local traffic on the south side of the city is hugely dependent on the SRR. Traffic would be gridlocked if you dumped even 30% of the traffic into the local road system.

    Might make more sense to do it the other way around -- complete the "North Ring", and toll that. But that would similarly militate against it functioning as an actual ring road, and move to a "bypass to the bypass" model.

    I'm sure roadsuperfans would ideally want both, but that's surely not so much on the long finger, as at the end of a very outstretched arm indeed.


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    #119
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,072 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    alaimacerc wrote: »
    Might make more sense to do it the other way around -- complete the "North Ring", and toll that. But that would similarly militate against it functioning as an actual ring road, and move to a "bypass to the bypass" model.

    I'm sure roadsuperfans would ideally want both, but that's surely not so much on the long finger, as at the end of a very outstretched arm indeed.

    I can tell you anecdotally that a lot of traffic avoids the Watergrasshill toll already. I'm not sure that people will pay even a reasonable toll for the "North Ring"


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    #120
    DerMutt
    Registered Users Posts: 132 ✭✭DerMutt


    kub wrote: »
    There are 2 others, one is at the Little Island junction proclaiming the journey time to Kinsale Road roundabout.

    The other is just after Kinsale Road roundabout heading East proclaiming the journey time to Little Island.

    How these things can be correct always puzzles me.

    There's one by the reservoir at the top of Carr's Hill too. Just showing a flashing dot at the moment.


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    #121
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,351 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Contract for the concrete bases & gantries for the ITS installations has been awarded to Jons Civil. Work to start the week beginning Monday 20th May, to be complete by January 2020 or possibly Christmas.


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