Ratings Discussion Thread - Mod Warning #271 (26th June)

J. Marston · 19-06-2019 10:58pm

Omackeral wrote: »

By God the wheels have come off

♫ I'll be your heeeeroooo ♫

God what a tune.

The White Wolf · 20-06-2019 5:52am

lawlolawl wrote: »

"Smackdown was built around advertising Bayley on “A Moment of Bliss” and Xavier Woods vs. Dolph Ziggler. They also added Seth Rollins & Kofi Kingston vs. Kevin Owens & Sami Zayn in a match announced during the program as the main event."

It's sad that all of the workers mentioned in this are actually pretty good but you just can't bring yourself to care about any of it because it's all happening under the WWE system of "each Sports Entertainer™ only has 5 moves and wins and losses don't matter so it's 50/50 booking all over".

It's the random tag team match that they added that irritates me. What are they even doing with Rollins, Owens and Zayn? At least Kofi has that God awful program with Ziggler but the other 3 just seem to have no coherent direction from week to week.

So on paper it sounds like a good tag match but in the grand scheme of teams it does nothing to entice me as it's not going to further any long term story.

It's funny to me that what seems to be the most coherent story they have right now is one involving Shane McMahon.

lawlolawl · 21-06-2019 9:25pm

https://twitter.com/BrandonThurston/status/1142111001837486082

Go through this entire thread. Pretty much every metric of success is falling in WWE.

SureYWouldntYa · 21-06-2019 11:21pm

lawlolawl wrote: »

Go through this entire thread. Pretty much every metric of success is falling in WWE.

I hate seeing house show attendances falling because of how much they all kill themselves on the road, if money isn't being made that way they're killing themselves for nothing

leggo · 21-06-2019 11:22pm

It’s mad how the ratings are almost bang in-line with USA Network’s overall decline but you choose to see it the way that suits what you want to believe.

Nevermind the fact that USA renewed Raw during this period for more money than ever and wanted to renew SD, so they themselves see WWE as the solution and not the cause.

Jerichoholic · 21-06-2019 11:30pm

Nonsense.

The PPV isn't barely half sold out and they are offering 2 for 1 tickets at $20, WWE's popularity is in serious decline. Can you not see that?

Omackeral · 21-06-2019 11:38pm

Jerichoholic wrote: »

Nonsense.

The PPV isn't barely half sold out and they are offering 2 for 1 tickets at $20, WWE's popularity is in serious decline. Can you not see that?

Plus don't forget that Omackeral, a two time poster of the year on PW Boards, doesn't watch Raw anymore.

Jerichoholic · 21-06-2019 11:43pm

I honestly don't know anyone who does anymore. And you wonder why Sky dropped them after 30 years?

leggo · 22-06-2019 12:13am

Jerichoholic wrote: »

Nonsense.

The PPV isn't barely half sold out and they are offering 2 for 1 tickets at $20, WWE's popularity is in serious decline. Can you not see that?

It’s obviously down, nobody is disputing that. But can you not see that this has happened time and again over the years? That’s the reality for any entertainment entity, especially one that doesn’t take breaks, people will get fatigued. The NFL was believed to be in crisis a couple years back around the Colin Kaepernick kneeling issue. I remember people getting bored of ‘The Big 4’ constantly dominating in the Premier League years ago. And neither of them run 52 weeks a year.

We could actually have an interesting conversation about that if people didn’t need to get hyperbolic and took time to understand the situation in full. There’s a HUGE gap between “ratings could improve” and using words like “crisis”, “failing” and “in-decline.” But people either don’t understand that because they’re believing misleading ‘journalism’ or want to push the narrative that they want to push and fit the ‘facts’ to suit that, so it quickly gets ridiculous.

lawlolawl · 22-06-2019 1:11am

There's a wrestling boom at the moment that has NJPW, AAA and AEW running successful shows in various territories but this boom is somehow completely avoiding WWE who can barely half-fill an arena in their home country by having a BOGOF offer.

This is totally normal and not a sign of a dying company at all.

People are so thrilled to see 50 year old Shane O Mac, Roman "Beige" Reigns (the Rocks cousin, remember the Rock?), Brocky 2 Moves and a host of criminally poorly booked workers that they are straight up avoiding the product completely so that they don't literally explode from excitement!

The tarped off sections at live shows and Smackdown are to protect people from the blood and guts that are sprayed everywhere from people overenjoying yet another pointless 6 man tag with Bob Lashley, Baron Corbin and whoever, wait, that guy is still signed? I thought he left.

leggo · 22-06-2019 7:02am

Omackeral wrote: »

Just a point of information, you're the only one on this thread who has used that phrase (that WWE is dying) or is using it in your arguments. Nobody else is saying it or has said it.

Remember people were like "Oh nobody is saying WWE is dying"?

lawlolawl wrote: »

This is totally normal and not a sign of a dying company at all.

There it is. It always comes out eventually. :pac:

Agent Coulson · 22-06-2019 7:46am

My Dad is stronger than your Dad.

Omackeral · 22-06-2019 8:40am

Agent Coulson wrote: »

My Dad is stronger than your Dad.

leggo · 22-06-2019 10:37am

Gifs: when your words are turning out to be utter ****e but saying “oh you had a point, it’s literally right there now in front of me” might just kill you...

“Nobody is saying that!”
“Look that lad literally just said it.”
“Uh...Lex Luger. I’m not wrong, you’re just a narcissist!”

Spoiler alert: the next stage of when people refuse to admit they were wrong in Internet discussions is claiming they never cared that much to begin with...

Necro · 22-06-2019 11:13am

lawlolawl wrote: »

There's a wrestling boom at the moment that has NJPW, AAA and AEW running successful shows in various territories but this boom is somehow completely avoiding WWE who can barely half-fill an arena in their home country by having a BOGOF offer.

This is totally normal and not a sign of a dying company at all.

People are so thrilled to see 50 year old Shane O Mac, Roman "Beige" Reigns (the Rocks cousin, remember the Rock?), Brocky 2 Moves and a host of criminally poorly booked workers that they are straight up avoiding the product completely so that they don't literally explode from excitement!

The tarped off sections at live shows and Smackdown are to protect people from the blood and guts that are sprayed everywhere from people overenjoying yet another pointless 6 man tag with Bob Lashley, Baron Corbin and whoever, wait, that guy is still signed? I thought he left.

It's impossible to have a good faith debate with you on ratings imo when you come out with posts like the above, particularly the bolded statement.

It's just hyperbolic nonsense.

None of the three companies you mention can be compared in the same vein as WWE. One off sell-out shows mean absolutely nothing in the context of WWE supposedly dying.

I mean when the AEW TV product debuts and is a number of points below WWE I could then, as you are now - argue that AEW is 'dying' which would be both ridiculous and unfair to them.

One of the main issues that WWE has at the moment is actually over-saturation. 5 hours of live TV per week then 205 Live and NXT as well is just far too much.

The writing is also dogsh1t but that's an objective viewpoint.

Jerichoholic · 22-06-2019 11:37am

There is certainly cause to take notice when when WWE are failing to sell 6,000 seats for a ppv and their competition's most recent show had more demand than Wrestlemania 35 ticket wise.

leggo · 22-06-2019 12:01pm

Jerichoholic wrote: »

There is certainly cause to take notice when when WWE are failing to sell 6,000 seats for a ppv and their competition's most recent show had more demand than Wrestlemania 35 ticket wise.

We have no idea on the actual demand of the show because zero questions were asked by people in a position to ask them. Meltzer reported it as the most in-demand show ever in wrestling, meaning he’s saying a main event with Hangman Page would’ve sold more than Hogan/Andre. It’s a ridiculous notion and anyone who buys it comes off as just gullible and easily worked. This is the issue I’m blue in the face telling people.

It’s not AEW’s fault, their job is to put out the best spin possible because they’ve got a TV show to build as much hype as possible around, or else they face being embarrassed when their ratings come in lower than anything SmackDown has ever done after promising otherwise. But someone needs to ask questions and not one person is, they instead report the BS figures as ridiculous fact. And in a fair media landscape they’d be ridiculed, but in wrestling people don’t like Baron Corbin so they just go along with it because “myeh myeh Vince McMahon is evil because he didn’t push my favourite wrestler” or something.

Necro · 22-06-2019 12:17pm

Jerichoholic wrote: »

There is certainly cause to take notice when when WWE are failing to sell 6,000 seats for a ppv and their competition's most recent show had more demand than Wrestlemania 35 ticket wise.

I just don't think it's a fair comparison to either tbh.

You're comparing one off shows, yes with large popularity (for now) to an absolute juggernaut that pumps out 7 hours of TV per week not including PPVs.

If anything I'd be of the opinion that WWE are harming themselves by producing so much TV on top of house shows and international tours - but evidently there is a market for this otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.

I'm interested in how the AEW TV product turns out and how it will be objectively (ie: not by shills like Meltzer) reviewed once it begins.

It's one thing putting on fantastic matches and a great show for a once-off extravaganza, it's an entirely different ballgame trying to come up with weekly programming.

WWE aren't doing well at this at the moment as it's all so repetitive, so I wonder how it will turn out for AEW with a much smaller roster and, by all accounts - the inmates running the asylum.

Jerichoholic · 22-06-2019 12:54pm

I think AEW are on to something good. WWE give you what they think is best, they don't care about what fans think. Just look at the state of this upcoming ppv.

AEW have a totally different mindset. For example. Loredo Kid had an absolute all time blowaway match recently with El Hijo del Vikingo. AEW noticed this and put him straight into the main event at the show next week.

WWE would have offered him a development deal, put in NXT for 5 years, changed his name, changed his look and make him work the awful WWE style.

Omackeral · 22-06-2019 1:38pm

Jerichoholic · 22-06-2019 1:50pm

leggo wrote: »

We have no idea on the actual demand of the show because zero questions were asked by people in a position to ask them. Meltzer reported it as the most in-demand show ever in wrestling, meaning he’s saying a main event with Hangman Page would’ve sold more than Hogan/Andre. It’s a ridiculous notion and anyone who buys it comes off as just gullible and easily worked. This is the issue I’m blue in the face telling people.

It’s not AEW’s fault, their job is to put out the best spin possible because they’ve got a TV show to build as much hype as possible around, or else they face being embarrassed when their ratings come in lower than anything SmackDown has ever done after promising otherwise. But someone needs to ask questions and not one person is, they instead report the BS figures as ridiculous fact. And in a fair media landscape they’d be ridiculed, but in wrestling people don’t like Baron Corbin so they just go along with it because “myeh myeh Vince McMahon is evil because he didn’t push my favourite wrestler” or something.

You're very bitter towards Meltzer. Have you got any evidence whatsoever that number is BS? You calling him a liar for reporting facts is laughable.

He teaches sports business classes in a University for God's sake.

Omackeral · 22-06-2019 1:51pm

Jerichoholic wrote: »

You're very bitter towards Meltzer. Have you got any evidence whatsoever that number is BS? You calling him a liar for reporting facts is laughable.

He teaches sports business classes in a University for God's sake.

Yeah but did he ever sell out the Woolshed?

Necro · 22-06-2019 1:53pm

Meltzer is a spoofer of the highest order, that's been documented on multiple threads in this forum for months now. I take everything he says with a large dose of skepticism.

Jerichoholic · 22-06-2019 1:55pm

Omackeral wrote: »

Yeah but did he ever sell out the Woolshed?

Demand to watch wrestlemania in a pub in Dublin was high where the main event had a girl from Dublin wrestling for the title.

This proves more than Dave Meltzer's fake numbers that WWE is at it's peak popularity.

Jerichoholic · 22-06-2019 1:57pm

Necro wrote: »

Meltzer is a spoofer of the highest order, that's been documented on multiple threads in this forum for months now. I take everything he says with a large dose of skepticism.

He's not a spoofer at all. A few geeks posting in a forum doesn't make him one. I've subscribed to the Observer for years, never had any problem with anything he's said.

He's taken out of context and misquoted all the time though.

leggo · 22-06-2019 1:59pm

Lads can you make one coherent argument without attacking me personally between the lot of you? You talk about me being bitter yet constantly bring up stuff like me selling out Woolshed (you’re doing some job ignoring me btw Omackerel)...what does any of that have to do with WWE’s ratings or AEW?

Stop throwing the toys out of the pram because you can’t argue the point, seriously.

Necro · 22-06-2019 2:02pm

Jerichoholic wrote: »

He's not a spoofer at all. A few geeks posting in a forum doesn't make him one. I've subscribed to the Observer for years, never had any problem with anything he's said.

He's taken out of context and misquoted all the time though.

He's also been patently wrong about a lot of things recently. Or is that misquotation too?

Jerichoholic · 22-06-2019 2:04pm

Necro wrote: »

He's also been patently wrong about a lot of things recently. Or is that misquotation too?

Give examples

Necro · 22-06-2019 2:11pm

Jerichoholic wrote: »

Give examples

I found the leaps around the women's main event particularly amusing myself. Seemed to change every week.

I find his overwhelming positivity about AEW nauseating as well. I don't have any issues with the company and wish them well, but there is literally no objectivity from him when it comes to them.

It may work out well, it may not. I'll judge them on their product as it evolves.

J. Marston · 22-06-2019 2:11pm

Jerichoholic wrote: »

I think AEW are on to something good. WWE give you what they think is best, they don't care about what fans think. Just look at the state of this upcoming PPV

Dunno about that. Look at Mania, they gave fans everything they wanted. The hardcore and casual were all desperate for a Seth/Kofi/Becky hat-trick and we got it.

Jerichoholic · 22-06-2019 2:14pm

They also had Baron Corbin beat Kurt Angle in his retirement match. Nobody wanted that, not one person.

leggo · 22-06-2019 2:18pm

The final number of those who were in the queque and tried to get tickets for All Out on 8/31 in Chicago, the next AEW PPV show, was 72,500 after about 30 minutes, and that is verified as they actually gave people their number in line. Keep in mind a few things about that stat. Some people logged in multiple times. Some of those people were fake. And those who ordered tickets probably averaged at roughly three tickets per order. Based on how quick it took to sell out, how many went through, which factors in multiples and fakes, the actual number of tickets that would have been sold would be just over 130,000. That ticket demand first 30 minutes beat any WrestleMania in history and would be the highest for any pro wrestling show I've ever heard of.

This is Meltzer’s report.

I sell tickets as part of my job (ha ha in Irish pubs, gas). Have had many dealings with Ticketmaster and know how their system works. There’s no way you can get these figures.

You can get the queue figure but that’ll give you stats on how many total tickets were being ordered, so if you’re in the queue and order 3 for you and your mates, that’s 3 towards the 72,500. There’s ZERO way to know if you’re dealing with people through multiple browsers, or friends within the same group booking separately and then taking the first set that become available. If you and I were mates (getting really hypothetical here), how could they know if you’re ordering off your computer and I’m ordering off mine?

The 130,000 figure is just made up. It comes from nothing and there’s no way to get it, if there was he went to such pains to explain his process that he’d have just broken it down. If I was to guess how they got it, I’d say they multiplied the 72,500 by the average 3 tickets per person to get 217,500 and rounded up to 220,000. They probably thought about reporting that but realised it’d sound too ridiculous, so took 100,000 off then added 10,000 to give it ‘the record’. Ticketmaster won’t report the lie, they’ve no incentive to as they make money off every ticket sold, and there’s no way anyone can get into their account without hacking them so we’ll likely never know. Meltzer would have no reason to have access to their Ticketmaster account anyway (if he did it would be a massive conflict of interest that he’s not declaring), so likely just took what they told them and reported it, no questions asked, because they’re his friends.

Also: it’s wrestling and everyone works crowd numbers in wrestling. Why do you assume that Cody ‘Oh that sledgehammer shot wasn’t a dig at Triple H’ Rhodes is the first person to buck this trend?

Jerichoholic · 22-06-2019 2:36pm

It's not made up. The 70,000 queue number is real. He's taking into account that maybe 25% of the queue had multiple devices. The average tickets bought on average per person would be 2.5 going by the last show, and that's a generous number. So that's where the number comes from.

Not made up at all.

leggo · 22-06-2019 2:48pm

Jerichoholic wrote: »

It's not made up. The 70,000 queue number is real. He's taking into account that maybe 25% of the queue had multiple devices. The average tickets bought on average per person would be 2.5 going by the last show, and that's a generous number. So that's where the number comes from.

Not made up at all.

This is just fan denial.

You don’t even need to understand the Ticketmaster system to answer the next question, just use logic: why would they count the figure of individuals who queued rather than attempted purchases? It’s completely useless and potentially damaging, for example if 70,000 people queued and ordered one ticket each or 10 and you didn’t know, that could lead to you believing they all wanted to order 10, booking a 700,000 capacity venue and going out of business. The only stat that matters to a company is “How many tickets could we have sold?” (Which they know, you have to enter that info before joining the queue) Why would they be lazy about giving you that info while being so precise with giving the queue number??!

I feel like I’m telling you the truth about Santa here. Sorry dude.

The White Wolf · 22-06-2019 2:54pm

Necro wrote: »

I found the leaps around the women's main event particularly amusing myself. Seemed to change every week.

I find his overwhelming positivity about AEW nauseating as well. I don't have any issues with the company and wish them well, but there is literally no objectivity from him when it comes to them.

It may work out well, it may not. I'll judge them on their product as it evolves.

In regards AEW, he can only critique what's been put in front of him which is strong thus far. It's the same in regards to Raw in that he can only critique what's put in front of him which has been overwhelmingly bad. Says it all about the latter when comments on Reddit, Twitter and YouTube are generally unified in saying the story around the joke title is the best thing about the show right now.

Admittedly his links with AEW are blatant but still, that doesn't necessarily suggest he's wrong.

Jerichoholic · 22-06-2019 2:58pm

leggo wrote: »

This is just fan denial.

You don’t even need to understand the Ticketmaster system to answer the next question, just use logic: why would they count the figure of individuals who queued rather than attempted purchases? It’s completely useless and potentially damaging, for example if 70,000 people queued and ordered one ticket each or 10 and you didn’t know, that could lead to you believing they all wanted to order 10, booking a 700,000 capacity venue and going out of business. The only stat that matters to a company is “How many tickets could we have sold?” (Which they know, you have to enter that info before joining the queue) Why would they be lazy about giving you that info while being so precise with giving the queue number??!

I feel like I’m telling you the truth about Santa here. Sorry dude.

He's using an average of tickets sold per person from Double or Nothing.

It's not hard to understand.

leggo · 22-06-2019 3:02pm

Okay now you’re not only misunderstanding maths but basic English comprehension.

What he’s saying is not possible. No ticket selling company would operate that way and I’m telling you specifically that that company doesn’t. And even if he was doing what you’re saying...that’s still a made up estimate! Your own version doesn’t pass the “Yeah but is it actually true” test! :pac:

Jerichoholic · 22-06-2019 3:08pm

What's the problem here? The 70,000 number is well documented, multiple people in the queue posted screenshots. Are you saying that the 70,000 in the queue didn't really want tickets?

It's an estimate. He didn't report is a fact, I fail to see how he's got it wrong.

You're out to lunch.

leggo · 22-06-2019 3:14pm

I can’t keep doing this with you. This has all literally been explained already.

If you’re in the queue and order two and are number 69,000, the person who orders next will be number 69,002, because they’re concerned with how many tickets can be sold, not how many people want to queue. There’s no reason for anyone involved to be concerned with that (at a push Ticketmaster might need to for server space but they could only confuse the customer - AEW in this case - by passing that on instead of actual demand which, again, they know). So the only way 72,500 people queued is if each ordered one ticket each.

Jerichoholic · 22-06-2019 3:22pm

That's absolute nonsense. So I'll leave you there.

leggo · 22-06-2019 3:31pm

Give me one good reason a ticketing website would tell you the amount of people queued and leave you to estimate the amount of tickets you could’ve sold (when you have to input that to join the queue, we’ve all ordered tickets before and done this)?

And no, “But Dave said...” is not an answer.

Jerichoholic · 22-06-2019 3:34pm

I'll tell you how, I've asked a few people that were in the queue and they both said that they were never asked how many tickets they wanted before being put in line. That good enough?

Your argument lies in tatters on the floor.

Loughc · 22-06-2019 3:35pm

Conpletely off topic but now we’re allowed to talk trash about Big Dave Meltzer, my favourite piece from him was after Punk walked out of WWE the next time Raw was in Chicago, Meltzer actually published that there was a 50/50 chance of punk appearing on raw.

**** me that’s keeping every option open right there

Omackeral · 22-06-2019 3:38pm

Necro · 22-06-2019 3:40pm

Loughc wrote: »

Conpletely off topic but now we’re allowed to talk trash about Big Dave Meltzer, my favourite piece from him was after Punk walked out of WWE the next time Raw was in Chicago, Meltzer actually published that there was a 50/50 chance of punk appearing on raw.

**** me that’s keeping every option open right there

Why, were we not before?? :eek:

leggo · 22-06-2019 3:45pm

Jerichoholic wrote: »

I'll tell you how, I've asked a few people that were in the queue and they both said that they were never asked how many tickets they wanted before being put in line. That good enough?

Your argument lies in tatters on the floor.

Okay so first you failed to mention the convenient “my friends said” conversations until now when doing so would’ve, in your view, left my argument in ‘tatters on the floor’?

Secondly, prior to this discussion, you had discussions with MULTIPLE people that went something like:

“I ordered tickets to All Out.”
“Cool but did they ask you how many tickets you wanted before you joined the queue?”
“What why?”
“ANSWER THE DAMN QUESTION THIS MAY BECOME RELEVANT!”

And finally, you expect us all to forget ordering through Ticketmaster previously and inputting how many tickets we’d like to order?

This is almost as good as “WWE paid off YouTube so Baron Corbin would have more hits than Being The Elite for the purpose of this really specific conversation.” You lads are quality. :pac:

J. Marston · 22-06-2019 3:46pm

This thread started Wrestling Forum: Civil War.

Lithium93_ · 22-06-2019 3:50pm

J. Marston wrote: »

This thread started Wrestling Forum: Civil War.

So who's Cap & who's Tony in this scenario?

lawlolawl · 22-06-2019 3:51pm

leggo wrote: »

And finally, you expect us all to forget ordering through Ticketmaster previously and inputting how many tickets we’d like to order?

When you clicked on the link to buy tickets you were put in the queue before you were asked for any details whatsoever.

I know this because I actually did just that.

Necro · 22-06-2019 3:51pm

I call Hulk

Ratings Discussion Thread - Mod Warning #271 (26th June)

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