Gallagher Premiership 2018/2019

Jump_In_Jack · 04-01-2019 10:38pm

Saracens threw it away, two yellow cards and gave away just too many kickable penalties

KevinK · 04-01-2019 10:44pm

Didn’t expect Farrell to kick it out there!

Tigerandahalf · 04-01-2019 11:47pm

Sale have a very decent team. Their scrum caused Saracens lots of problems - no idea who their props are.

Their backline is very threatening - de Klerk, James O'Connor, Solomona, Ashton and that James lad at 13 had a very good game.

Enjoyable game.

Faf de Klerk is up there with Murray. His pass is a bit clumsy but his aggression is terrific.

Buer · 05-01-2019 9:25am

KevinK wrote: »

Didn’t expect Farrell to kick it out there!

Very odd decision. He looked pissed off. Regardless, they were 6 points down and it was the final play. Kicking it out deliberately was a bit peculiar.

Digifriendly · 05-01-2019 9:39am

Buer wrote: »

Very odd decision. He looked pissed off. Regardless, they were 6 points down and it was the final play. Kicking it out deliberately was a bit peculiar.

Especially as Saracens had gone through multiple phases in their own 22. Maybe he was worried about them coughing up the ball and losing their LBP.

Dave_The_Sheep · 05-01-2019 7:39pm

BBC Match report wrote:

Worcester completed a sensational comeback with a try 14 minutes into added time against a Bath side who ended up with 11 men at Sixways.

Must have been some last 15/20 minutes.

Red for a neck roll, then three yellows in added time, two props during a series of scrums, then a high tackle yellow.

Bloody hell. That's bizarre.

Squidgy Black · 05-01-2019 10:12pm

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Must have been some last 15/20 minutes.

Red for a neck roll, then three yellows in added time, two props during a series of scrums, then a high tackle yellow.

Bloody hell. That's bizarre.

https://twitter.com/btsportrugby/status/1081612438351556608?s=09

stephen_n · 06-01-2019 1:58pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

https://twitter.com/btsportrugby/status/1081612438351556608?s=09

That’s bizzare, also I thought there had to be a minimum of 12 players for a game to continue.

Dog Botherer · 06-01-2019 4:33pm

stephen_n wrote: »

That’s bizzare, also I thought there had to be a minimum of 12 players for a game to continue.

I thought it was 11 for some reason, after research it seems that different leagues have different rules about the minimum number of players allowed. Varies between 12 and 10 from what I've seen.

Though technically it could go as low as 6, 5 to scrummage and a scrumhalf to put the ball in :pac:

errlloyd · 06-01-2019 4:39pm

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

BBC Match report wrote:

Worcester completed a sensational comeback with a try 14 minutes into added time against a Bath side who ended up with 11 men at Sixways.

Must have been some last 15/20 minutes.

Red for a neck roll, then three yellows in added time, two props during a series of scrums, then a high tackle yellow.

Bloody hell. That's bizarre.

It was an offside not a high tackle. He was a fair bit offside apparently, but I think he thought he'd made a good hit and won the game.

The Lost Sheep · 06-01-2019 4:40pm

stephen_n wrote: »

That’s bizzare, also I thought there had to be a minimum of 12 players for a game to continue.

Varies per level and competition. Nothing in law really but all to do with competition regulations

Squidgy Black · 08-01-2019 1:20am

Apparently London Irish are moving closer to signing Paddy Jackson to a two year deal.

Dubinusa · 10-01-2019 6:56pm

L.I should sign more Irish players imo.
I think some of our academy lads who are bogged down behind others could be loaned out to L.I.
Jack Kelly?
Peter Claffey?
Sean O Connor?
It would allow the union and provinces to gauge their worth and if they are worth signing in the future.

The Lost Sheep · 10-01-2019 7:03pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

L.I should sign more Irish players imo.
I think some of our academy lads who are bogged down behind others could be loaned out to L.I.
Jack Kelly?
Peter Claffey?
Sean O Connor?
It would allow the union and provinces to gauge their worth and if they are worth signing in the future.

Why London Irish? Theyre not known as the "not nots" for nothing even if training base is still in London...
Irish may sign irish players but will look to higher calibre players than these guys and theyve very few as it stands. Maybe O Connor who is getting game time for Munster but Claffey isnt getting look in here so not sure he would there either

Dubinusa · 11-01-2019 2:18am

Maybe, but I think a loan arrangement between the IRFU and L.I could benefit everyone.
L.I would get relatively cheap players and the union would see if these players are up to snuff.

The Lost Sheep · 11-01-2019 2:40am

Dubinusa wrote: »

Maybe, but I think a loan arrangement between the IRFU and L.I could benefit everyone.
L.I would get relatively cheap players and the union would see if these players are up to snuff.

LI amateur rfc has greater contacts in terms of irish players than the pro team.
I dont see how it would benefit everyone. Even more when theyre in the championship and guys who are sort to need a loan deal are not generally type who a struggling premiership team will need.

Tigerandahalf · 13-01-2019 11:11am

A lot of talk in the papers today that the Premiership may be looking to scrap relegation with some of the championship clubs threatening legal action and/or seeking to join the Pro14.

I can't see how the Pro14 would be interested in Ealing or Nottingham.

I know Exeter came up and have done well but they are a once off.

For clubs to be sustainable it would be good for relegation to be scrapped. It would certainly allow the English teams to rest their players more.

troyzer · 13-01-2019 11:13am

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

A lot of talk in the papers today that the Premiership may be looking to scrap relegation with some of the championship clubs threatening legal action and/or seeking to join the Pro14.

I can't see how the Pro14 would be interested in Ealing or Nottingham.

I know Exeter came up and have done well but they are a once off.

For clubs to be sustainable it would be good for relegation to be scrapped. It would certainly allow the English teams to rest their players more.

How would RFU clubs join without an RFU stake in the league?

sydthebeat · 13-01-2019 11:46am

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

A lot of talk in the papers today that the Premiership may be looking to scrap relegation with some of the championship clubs threatening legal action and/or seeking to join the Pro14.

I can't see how the Pro14 would be interested in Ealing or Nottingham.

I know Exeter came up and have done well but they are a once off.

For clubs to be sustainable it would be good for relegation to be scrapped. It would certainly allow the English teams to rest their players more.

There was a very good interview with the Ealing chairnan on will greenwood's podcast this week.
He explained why they would obviously want relegation to continue and how it would work better with bigger payments of championship teams and how the English rugby market can easily sustain 20 professional teams.

Squidgy Black · 13-01-2019 12:21pm

Gareth Steenson was on The Rugby Pod earlier in the week talking about it. People forget that Exeter were a championship side less than 10 years ago, got promoted and have ended up being one of the strongest sides in the premiership.

Tigerandahalf · 13-01-2019 12:30pm

I would think the 12 in the Premiership is too much especially from an RFU point as the national team players are too widely spread and key combinations not given enough game time.

But I guess to have a league you need that amount of teams to play.

The amount of u20s players breaking into teams is less than in Ireland as I guess clubs can't afford to risk blooding players with the constant battle for points. Unless they have to because of injury. It is also probably the case that they are too willing to spend rather than nourish a younger talent coming through.

troyzer · 13-01-2019 12:59pm

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I would think the 12 in the Premiership is too much especially from an RFU point as the national team players are too widely spread and key combinations not given enough game time.

But I guess to have a league you need that amount of teams to play.

The amount of u20s players breaking into teams is less than in Ireland as I guess clubs can't afford to risk blooding players with the constant battle for points. Unless they have to because of injury. It is also probably the case that they are too willing to spend rather than nourish a younger talent coming through.

I wonder if English rugby should adopt an MLB style system where the top teams have feeder teams from the lower leagues.

The lower teams get money and good prospects and the Premiership teams get their best young players regular game time and the ability to draw on a larger squad.

irishbucsfan · 13-01-2019 1:04pm

troyzer wrote: »

I wonder if English rugby should adopt an MLB style system where the top teams have feeder teams from the lower leagues.

The lower teams get money and good prospects and the Premiership teams get their best young players regular game time and the ability to draw on a larger squad.

They already do that themselves. Nottingham/Leicester have a relationship for example. I played for a clubs linked with Sarries and Wasps in a similar way.

I'm not sure if that was driven by the RFU or it just came about naturally. More likely the latter I'd say.

troyzer · 13-01-2019 1:06pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

I wonder if English rugby should adopt an MLB style system where the top teams have feeder teams from the lower leagues.

The lower teams get money and good prospects and the Premiership teams get their best young players regular game time and the ability to draw on a larger squad.

They already do that themselves. Nottingham/Leicester have a relationship for example. I played for a clubs linked with Sarries and Wasps in a similar way.

I'm not sure if that was driven by the RFU or it just came about naturally. More likely the latter I'd say.

They had clubs in the championship?

Tigerandahalf · 13-01-2019 1:21pm

Ian McGeechan has an article in the Indo about this today.
'English rugby needs to look at Irish model if their clubs are to thrive'

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/champions-cup/ian-mcgeechan-english-rugby-needs-to-look-at-irish-model-if-their-clubs-are-to-thrive-37705326.html

The Lost Sheep · 13-01-2019 3:19pm

troyzer wrote: »

They had clubs in the championship?

They had(have) links with clubs in championship. Not owned but considerable links for loaning players to etc

troyzer · 13-01-2019 3:23pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

They had clubs in the championship?

They had(have) links with clubs in championship. Not owned but considerable links for loaning players to etc

Well it's obviously not as formalised as baseball where the minor league teams are the de facto academies which personnel and players regularly moving back and forth.

irishbucsfan · 13-01-2019 3:26pm

troyzer wrote: »

Well it's obviously not as formalised as baseball where the minor league teams are the de facto academies which personnel and players regularly moving back and forth.

Is it not?

troyzer · 13-01-2019 3:28pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Well it's obviously not as formalised as baseball where the minor league teams are the de facto academies which personnel and players regularly moving back and forth.

Is it not?

You just said that the teams aren't owned. They are in baseball.

irishbucsfan · 13-01-2019 3:40pm

troyzer wrote: »

You just said that the teams aren't owned. They are in baseball.

Maybe worth looking into that a little bit more

troyzer · 13-01-2019 3:44pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

You just said that the teams aren't owned. They are in baseball.

Maybe worth looking into that a little bit more

Looking into what?

irishbucsfan · 13-01-2019 3:48pm

troyzer wrote: »

Looking into what?

Minor league baseball teams are mostly independent of their major league affiliates.

There'd be 0 added benefit of a Premiership club buying a Championship or National League club and it'd probably work out very poorly for the lower leagues. There's 0% chance of that happening anyway.

Players can and do already move freely back and forward between academies and the lower league clubs. Tom Varndell is dual-registered to the Tigers and Nottingham for example and is starting for Nottingham this weekend instead of Leicester.

troyzer · 13-01-2019 3:50pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Looking into what?

Minor league baseball teams are mostly independent of their major league affiliates.

There'd be 0 added benefit of a Premiership club buying a Championship or National League club and it'd probably work out very poorly for the lower leagues. There's 0% chance of that happening anyway.

Players can and do already move freely back and forward between academies and the lower league clubs. Tom Varndell is dual-registered to the Tigers and Nottingham for example and is starting for Nottingham this weekend instead of Leicester.

Maybe it's just the odd one that's owned by the Major league team. I know Pawtucket is owned by the Red Sox ownership group though not by the Red Sox themselves.

If what you're saying is true, why isn't it being used as a development pathway more often? They should be able to produce far more talented academy prospects if they have such a massive outlay for game time.

irishbucsfan · 13-01-2019 3:55pm

troyzer wrote: »

Maybe it's just the odd one that's owned by the Major league team. I know Pawtucket is owned by the Red Sox ownership group though not by the Red Sox themselves.

If what you're saying is true, why isn't it being used as a development pathway more often? They should be able to produce far more talented academy prospects if they have such a massive outlay for game time.

How much is it used? This kind of statement is completely baseless For all you know it's used constantly, you didn't even know the pathway existed and now you're assuming it's not used enough. It is used.

Maybe player development is actually more difficult than you're giving it credit? Maybe it's not just as simple as giving guys game-time at what is effectively AIL 1A standard.

troyzer · 13-01-2019 4:02pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Maybe it's just the odd one that's owned by the Major league team. I know Pawtucket is owned by the Red Sox ownership group though not by the Red Sox themselves.

If what you're saying is true, why isn't it being used as a development pathway more often? They should be able to produce far more talented academy prospects if they have such a massive outlay for game time.

How much is it used? This kind of statement is completely baseless For all you know it's used constantly, you didn't even know the pathway existed and now you're assuming it's not used enough. It is used.

Maybe player development is actually more difficult than you're giving it credit? Maybe it's not just as simple as giving guys game-time at what is effectively AIL 1A standard.

Well I'm assuming it's not being used properly if the entire population of England struggled to produce a single test level openside for years.

It's a bit harsh saying that Championship rugby I AIL standard. It's a bit better than that.

But you're right, something isn't adding up.

irishbucsfan · 13-01-2019 4:12pm

troyzer wrote: »

Well I'm assuming it's not being used properly if the entire population of England struggled to produce a single test level openside for years.

It's a bit harsh saying that Championship rugby I AIL standard. It's a bit better than that.

But you're right, something isn't adding up.

I think you're vastly overrating the Championship there. There's 2 or 3 good professional sides in it most years, the rest would be at the standard of a 1A side in my experience. Unless the standard has come on considerably since I left (and by all accounts the opposite has happened if anything).

troyzer · 13-01-2019 4:31pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Well I'm assuming it's not being used properly if the entire population of England struggled to produce a single test level openside for years.

It's a bit harsh saying that Championship rugby I AIL standard. It's a bit better than that.

But you're right, something isn't adding up.

I think you're vastly overrating the Championship there. There's 2 or 3 good professional sides in it most years, the rest would be at the standard of a 1A side in my experience. Unless the standard has come on considerably since I left (and by all accounts the opposite has happened if anything).

I'll have to defer to you on that one. I don't watch Championship rugby. There are obviously a few good teams in there but if the quality drops off rapidly after that as you say then fair enough.

I know the wages are averaging something like £20k a year.

Burkie1203 · 15-01-2019 12:04pm

Wasps losing Hughes. Daly to Sarries still a runner or did he sign a new contract?

https://twitter.com/alexshawsport/status/1085129904813940737?s=19

Burkie1203 · 15-01-2019 11:15pm

Another Player leaving Wasps

https://twitter.com/TimesSport/status/1085226551397048326?s=19

Squidgy Black · 16-01-2019 2:49pm

Wasps signed Fekitoa from Toulon. I'm guessing he's Daly's replacement.

Buer · 16-01-2019 2:55pm

I'm surprised. Comments in the past year suggested he was considering returning to NZ but I suppose money talks. With that said, I don't know where Wasps are getting it given their rumoured financial issues which are only going to get worse. They've gambled hugely with their plans over the last 2 years and they've failed miserably.

Whilst Daly has been a key player for them and they've developed him and been rewarded by him, I think it's time for him to move on. He hasn't looked as good this season as he has previously and he has been a bit of a d*ck on the field. Aside from the antics against Leinster when he shoved one of his own players under the posts, I've seen him mouthing off at team mates on several other occasions. He's obviously not happy where he is. If he wants to realise his full potential, he needs to move.

If Fekitoa wanted to realise his full potential, he should have gone back to NZ but the lure of cash is too strong in fairness. It's a brief career and if he can get paid, he should do so.

Squidgy Black · 16-01-2019 3:04pm

Buer wrote: »

I'm surprised. Comments in the past year suggested he was considering returning to NZ but I suppose money talks. With that said, I don't know where Wasps are getting it given their rumoured financial issues which are only going to get worse. They've gambled hugely with their plans over the last 2 years and they've failed miserably.

Whilst Daly has been a key player for them and they've developed him and been rewarded by him, I think it's time for him to move on. He hasn't looked as good this season as he has previously and he has been a bit of a d*ck on the field. Aside from the antics against Leinster when he shoved one of his own players under the posts, I've seen him mouthing off at team mates on several other occasions. He's obviously not happy where he is. If he wants to realise his full potential, he needs to move.

If Fekitoa wanted to realise his full potential, he should have gone back to NZ but the lure of cash is too strong in fairness. It's a brief career and if he can get paid, he should do so.

The money freed up from Hughes/Le Roux and Wade departing, as well as Daly when he does, I'm guessing.

It'd be hard for Fekitoa to turn down the kind of silly money Wasps will have thrown at him, considering he's already in Europe, two years in Coventry for what you can only imagine would be close enough to 7 figures a year.

Wasps have a choice here, they can either try and promote from within and use younger squad players and struggle a little for the next year or two, or splash out even further to replace the big name players who have left. And I think we all know which way they'll go.

troyzer · 16-01-2019 3:08pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

The money freed up from Hughes/Le Roux and Wade departing, as well as Daly when he does, I'm guessing.

It'd be hard for Fekitoa to turn down the kind of silly money Wasps will have thrown at him, considering he's already in Europe, two years in Coventry for what you can only imagine would be close enough to 7 figures a year.

Wasps have a choice here, they can either try and promote from within and use younger squad players and struggle a little for the next year or two, or splash out even further to replace the big name players who have left. And I think we all know which way they'll go.

Seven figures? Really?

See this is the real issue when talking about the Premiership model vs the Pro14.

What exactly is Fekitoa going to make in Wasps and what is his equivalent in a player like Chris Farrell making in Munster?

molloyjh · 16-01-2019 3:11pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

The money freed up from Hughes/Le Roux and Wade departing, as well as Daly when he does, I'm guessing.

It'd be hard for Fekitoa to turn down the kind of silly money Wasps will have thrown at him, considering he's already in Europe, two years in Coventry for what you can only imagine would be close enough to 7 figures a year.

Wasps have a choice here, they can either try and promote from within and use younger squad players and struggle a little for the next year or two, or splash out even further to replace the big name players who have left. And I think we all know which way they'll go.

They kind of have to. There’s an element of being all in at this stage. They can’t just go cold turkey, as it were, off the imports. The best they can do is ween themselves off them. Slowly but surely build up the young lads coming through. We’ve all seen what has happened to Toulon, and they still have a few big names there.

Squidgy Black · 16-01-2019 3:13pm

troyzer wrote: »

Seven figures? Really?

See this is the real issue when talking about the Premiership model vs the Pro14.

What exactly is Fekitoa going to make in Wasps and what is his equivalent in a player like Chris Farrell making in Munster?

His Toulon salary was reported to be around $700k, now the 7 figures is probably a complete exaggeration but I'd be amazed if it was under £500k. Considering Piutau was reported to be on £1m per year.

troyzer · 16-01-2019 3:14pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

His Toulon salary was reported to be around $700k, now the 7 figures is probably a complete exaggeration but I'd be amazed if it was under £500k. Considering Piutau was reported to be on £1m per year.

And what would a player like Farrell be on? I think that's a relatively fair comparison, maybe I'm wrong?

Squidgy Black · 16-01-2019 3:14pm

molloyjh wrote: »

They kind of have to. There’s an element of being all in at this stage. They can’t just go cold turkey, as it were, off the imports. The best they can do is ween themselves off them. Slowly but surely build up the young lads coming through. We’ve all seen what has happened to Toulon, and they still have a few big names there.

Yeah I know, but I'm thinking more that they'll just open up the check book and replace like for like at this stage, and just dig the hole deeper.

Squidgy Black · 16-01-2019 3:19pm

troyzer wrote: »

And what would a player like Farrell be on? I think that's a relatively fair comparison, maybe I'm wrong?

I've absolutely no idea to be honest, provincial salaries are impossible to even guess unless you're in the know. Central contracts are where the big bucks are, I've heard a figure thrown around that €400k is the max a provincial contract could go to before it goes central, for Irish players anyways but that could be wrong.

troyzer · 16-01-2019 3:22pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I've absolutely no idea to be honest, provincial salaries are impossible to even guess unless you're in the know. Central contracts are where the big bucks are, I've heard a figure thrown around that €400k is the max a provincial contract could go to before it goes central, for Irish players anyways but that could be wrong.

Is that only for project players? Certainly the likes of Dai Young and many of the other whingers in English rugby seem to have a remarkable insight into Irish salaries.

They all claim that Leinster are spending more than the Premiership salary cap. Do we have any idea if it's true? Do they have any reason to think it?

Squidgy Black · 16-01-2019 3:43pm

troyzer wrote: »

Is that only for project players? Certainly the likes of Dai Young and many of the other whingers in English rugby seem to have a remarkable insight into Irish salaries.

They all claim that Leinster are spending more than the Premiership salary cap. Do we have any idea if it's true? Do they have any reason to think it?

They'd probably know from speaking to various agents etc. We probably are spending more than the salary cap, or close to it when you include central contracts. But we also don't have cap exemptions, and stuff like the homegrown senior player credits and international player credits etc.