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Irish Soldiers who deserted during WWII to join the British Army & Starvation order

123578

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,355 ✭✭✭Belfast


    CDfm wrote: »
    Britain imprisoned deserters in WWII AFAIK and they were still arresting them until recently 1980's.(Eugene Lambert was arrested)

    History Ireland says
    Many Irish citizens who served in the war did not volunteer at all. Those in British forces at the outbreak of war in 1939 had little choice about the matter, short of desertion (British figures suggest that as many as 5,000 did desert during the war and returned to Ireland)
    So what is the status of those deserters ?

    As far as I Know they were offered a choice return to Ireland within 48 hours or "volunteer" to join the British armed forces.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Those who deserted the neutral Irish army & went off to fight the Nazi's were heroes who should have been decorated on their return, or failing that, they should have ben pardoned a few years down the line. They joined the Allied War effort & fought Adolf Hitler, they are/were heroes.

    Good (pro these soldiers) article in Saturdays (14th/Jan) Irish Times.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    LordSutch wrote: »

    Good (pro these soldiers) article in Saturdays (14th/Jan) Irish Times.

    The Irish Times was an influential paper back then too

    http://www.ricorso.net/rx/az-data/authors/s/Smyllie_RM/life.htm


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,467 ✭✭✭Oasis_Dublin


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Those who deserted the neutral Irish army & went off to fight the Nazi's were heroes who should have been decorated on their return, or failing that, they should have ben pardoned a few years down the line. They joined the Allied War effort & fought Adolf Hitler, they are/were heroes.

    Good (pro these soldiers) article in Saturdays (14th/Jan) Irish Times.

    Poor reading of the matter at hand, again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Poor reading of the matter at hand, again.

    I'll say it one more time before I leave this thread for good.

    Those who deserted the neutral (& neutered) Irish army in the 1940's and went off to fight the Nazi's were all heroes in my book, these same men should have been decorated on their return to Ireland, or failing that, they should have been pardoned a few years down the line (after the Irish government discovered the true horror of what the Nazi's did). Those brave men joined the Allied War effort & fought Adolf Hitler knowing that they may well die in the process, they are/were heroes and they should all be posthumously pardoned & decorated as war heroes. They and their widows should also get extra pensions. The way those men were treated by this state was a disgrace, and reading between the lines it seems like Alan Shatter will finally come to the same conclusion.

    I'm finished with this thread, finito, gone - Bye bye.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    LordSutch wrote: »
    I'll say it one more time before I leave this thread for good.

    Those who deserted the neutral (& neutered) Irish army in the 1940's and went off to fight the Nazi's were all heroes in my book..................reading between the lines it seems like Alan Shatter will finally come to the same conclusion.


    I'm finished with this thread, finito, gone - Bye bye.

    I am interested in the history of the events and teasing out what happened so that we might understand it. The radio programme that this thread concerns was, IMHO, pejorative & was not historically accurate.

    Also, parts of the campaign and/or its supporters make the claim that Ireland or indeed a large section of the Irish State was anti British and pro-nazi at the time. I can't see anything to substantiate that.

    And, I have gone thru the available sources and issues.

    That's the history of it. You may not like the history or you may disagree with my interpretation or I may be missing something.

    There may well be legitimate reasons why the campaign should succeed but they are not being put forward.


  • Registered Users Posts: 159 ✭✭A.Tomas


    LordSutch wrote: »
    I'll say it one more time before I leave this thread for good.

    Those who deserted the neutral (& neutered) Irish army in the 1940's and went off to fight the Nazi's were all heroes in my book, these same men should have been decorated on their return to Ireland, or failing that, they should have been pardoned a few years down the line (after the Irish government discovered the true horror of what the Nazi's did). Those brave men joined the Allied War effort & fought Adolf Hitler knowing that they may well die in the process, they are/were heroes and they should all be posthumously pardoned & decorated as war heroes. They and their widows should also get extra pensions. The way those men were treated by this state was a disgrace, and reading between the lines it seems like Alan Shatter will finally come to the same conclusion.

    I'm finished with this thread, finito, gone - Bye bye.





    How were they treated by the state?
    The state barely laid a finger on them, when they could have thrown them in prison for abandoning their posts.

    Many claimed they went for the money. Nothing to do with Hitler. If they had a problem with imperialism or fascism of any sort they would not be joining the British army

    They should have stood by their country, and fought either Germany or Britain if they invaded Ireland! The fact that it was neutral is irrelevant.

    What the Irish govt wanted was Ireland to remain free, and protect the integrity of democratic state, along with the armed defenders i.e. the Defence Forces against British or German soldiers.

    Now you're done.:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,467 ✭✭✭Oasis_Dublin


    LordSutch wrote: »
    I'll say it one more time before I leave this thread for good.

    Those who deserted the neutral (& neutered) Irish army in the 1940's and went off to fight the Nazi's were all heroes in my book, these same men should have been decorated on their return to Ireland, or failing that, they should have been pardoned a few years down the line (after the Irish government discovered the true horror of what the Nazi's did). Those brave men joined the Allied War effort & fought Adolf Hitler knowing that they may well die in the process, they are/were heroes and they should all be posthumously pardoned & decorated as war heroes. They and their widows should also get extra pensions. The way those men were treated by this state was a disgrace, and reading between the lines it seems like Alan Shatter will finally come to the same conclusion.

    I'm finished with this thread, finito, gone - Bye bye.

    Good riddance. Everyone else in this discussion has been reasonable and been willing to listen to both sides. You had your mind made up before you came and you have not moved an inch. You read back into history, which is plainly and simply not the way to go about anything which happened in the past.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    The surprise for me was just how pro-British the country really was.

    Here is a piece I found and I love the phrase "slightly neutral".
    A look at the record shows that, during World War II, Fianna Fail was not only a ‘slightly constitutional party’ but Ireland was also a slightly neutral country!
    liberator.jpg
    Crashed "Liberator" aircraft, Co. Donegal, 1943
    'The focal point of the war against England and the one possibility of bringing her to her knees is in attacking sea communications in the Atlantic ' , said Karl Donitz, Grand Admiral, German U-boats. For him, things were looking good. In December 1939, the opening year of World War 2, German submarines operating together with planes and surface raiders, accounted for 754,000 tons of Allied shipping losses. This represented 99.6 per cent of all shipping sunk in 1939. At this point in the war Britain had less than 3 weeks supply of wheat; stocks of many other commodities such as sugar had fallen to under 6 weeks supply. A solution had to be found, and quickly.
    England in great danger
    As Europe fell to the advancing German armies, the UK became more and more isolated and increasingly dependent on the Atlantic trade route for industrial raw materials and food. If this lifeline were broken England would starve both physically and financially. Following the successful conclusion of the 'Battle of Britain' in October 1940 England prepared immediately for what was to become known as the ' Battle of the Atlantic '.
    Although some air cover was already provided, a 'black gap' existed in mid-Atlantic, a section that could not be reached from existing air bases. Both Germany and Britain realised the importance of this gap. If U-boats could operate in this area without fear of air attack then the allied convoys would be at the mercy of the German 'wolf packs'.
    As a result of aerial surveys carried out late in 1940 and despite a less than favourable report, construction of an RAF base began almost immediately on the old Castle Archdale estate on the shores of Lough Erne with the intention of closing the gap. There was one snag. The extra 100 miles range possible from the new base would only become a reality if the aircraft could fly due west over neutral Ireland . Failing an agreement, planes would have to fly north over Lough Foyle before heading around Donegal’s northern shore for the Atlantic battleground. Britain was determined that despite De Valera's dogged insistence on neutrality they would bring 'the ungrateful Irish to heel'. The bombing of Belfast by the Luftwaffe in April 1941 in which 750 people were killed was a signal lesson to the Irish government then (and today!) of what might happen should they join the belligerents. In May, German planes bombed Dublin killing 34 people and destroying 300 houses in the North Strand . Churchill was to admit later that this may have been as a result of the distortion of Luftwaffe radio guidance beams by the British in an attempt to bring Ireland into the war .
    The Donegal Corridor
    While De Valera would not be coerced into joining the war, pragmatism demanded that, despite strained Anglo-Irish relations, an official blind eye be turned to what became known as the 'Donegal corridor', a route over south Donegal/north Leitrim/north Sligo , which led to the Atlantic . This concession was subject to the condition that flights be made at a good height and that the route over the military camp at Finner be avoided, both of which conditions subsequently received scant attention from the British.
    No. 240 Squadron, equipped with Stranraer Flying Boats, carried out the first sorties from the newly established base on Lough Erne, styled No. 15 Group Coastal Command, on 21 st February 1941 thus bringing Fermanagh into the front line of the 'Battle of the Atlantic'. One of the earliest and most notable successes of planes based at Castle Archdale was the location and chase, which resulted in the sinking of the German battleship, Bismarck . She had sunk the pride of the British fleet, HMS Hood, some days previously. An entry in Castle Archdale log of May 27 th 1941 reads: 'German battleship sunk at 1100 hrs. Aircraft of 209 and 240 squadrons operating from this station were responsible…'
    The 'nod and a wink' policy of 'neutral Ireland ' quickly extended to more than just a shortcut to the Atlantic ! As the bombs rained down on Belfast on the night of 15-16 April 1941 a panic-stricken call from the Six County Security Minister, John Mc Dermott, brought a humanitarian dash by thirteen units of the Dublin Fire Brigade to the rescue of the devastated city.
    Covert ship at Killybegs
    Other concessions followed. The establishment in June 1941 of an armed air/sea rescue trawler, the 'Robert Hastie', manned by eleven British personnel, at Killybegs fishing port was shrouded in secrecy. Its purpose was to provide assistance to shipping casualties and to supply planes that had run out of fuel. The need for such a vessel was clearly illustrated the previous April when Pilot Officer Denis Briggs, returning from a routine U-boat patrol, was forced to ditch his Saro Lerwick sea-plane in the sea off Tullan Strand, Co. Donegal when he ran short of fuel. Watching the descent of the stricken plane Irish army observation posts shortly afterwards beheld the unusual sight of an airplane being towed to Bundoran by a passing fishing boat and immediately reported the incident to HQ.
    This was a new dilemma for all involved. Local units of the Army, unaware of decisions made at higher levels, proceeded on the assumption that the crew would be interned for the duration of the war in neutral Ireland and the plane impounded. Following some hasty consultation and diplomatic manoeuvring a camouflaged air force lorry arrived from across the border in Castle Archdale with eighty gallons of aviation fuel. The plane was made ready and took off with its crew for their home base on Lough Erne.
    Co-operation between the British and Irish authorities was soon commonplace, eventually becoming so close that in some instances HQ in Athlone could inform Castle Archdale of downed planes in Irish territory before the British even knew they were missing!
    Airplane crashes
    There were approximately 1,000 wartime crashes and forced landings in the Six Counties and 162 in southern Ireland during the war years. One of the first crashes, in March 1941, was a Catalina Flying Boat from 240 Squadron, Castle Archdale. Crashing into the mountain near Glenade, Co. Leitrim, nine bodies were later recovered from wreckage that was strewn all over the mountainside. There were no survivors. In December 1943 a Flying Fortress B-24 bomber crashed into the side of Truskmore Mtn. in nearby Ballintrillick, Co. Sligo . Three men died on impact. Locals and the L.D.F carried seven injured survivors down the mountain to safety.
    On the evening of December 5 th 1942 people from all over North Sligo looked up into a lowering winter sky, watching fearfully as a huge Flying Fortress circled noisily overhead looking for a safe place to land. 'The Devil Himself' created a sensation when it dropped safely out of the sky on to Mullaghmore beach. The crew of American officers and airmen were feted in accommodation at the Beach Hotel, Mullaghmore and at Finner camp for 17 days while a replacement engine was supplied from Northern Ireland and fitted to the plane. An enterprising local man did well when he received two pounds compensation from the Irish Air Corps for damage to land he claimed was his but was actually a commonage!
    In February 1945 Privates Herrity and Gilmartin watched from their L.O.P. on Mullaghmore Head as a British Halifax four engine bomber, carrying a Canadian and British crew, circled looking for a suitable landing place. They contacted Killybegs lifeboat station when the plane fell like a stone into the sea one mile East of their position. Locals watched helplessly from the shore as the men clambered from the cockpit onto the wing as the plane sank under them. Two men drowned and four were saved.
    Are we just bluffers?
    The struggle was a desperate one but eventually, thanks to Ireland ’s part in the Battle of the Atlantic , Germany ’s stranglehold on British shipping was broken.
    Is our present stance on neutrality still just a bluster and a pose? By our co-operation at Shannon are we leaving ourselves open to attacks by Arab terrorists? Escaping with a ‘slightly neutral’ stance in the past is no guarantee of safe passage with such a policy in the future!
    =============================================================================

    ADDENDUM
    This (edited) article by Robert Fisk in the English 'Independent' newspaper on Saturday the 17th of September 2011 throws an interesting light on another aspect of ‘The Emergency’ and Ireland as a ‘slightly neutral’ country:
    'Robert Fisk: German U-boats refuelled in Ireland? Surely not!
    …A reader has sent me a fascinating account of his dad's war service as an SOE recruit. He was an expert in bomb disposal, demolition and sabotage, trained at Brickendonbury Manor, near Hertford, with the rank of lieutenant and later attached to the Royal Navy in Derry – or Londonderry, as all good Protestants and Brits would at the time have called the last of our Irish Treaty Ports. The other three had been cheerfully handed over to de Valera by Malcolm MacDonald in 1938, earning Churchill's most poisonous hatred.
    In 1940, our man – his reader-son asks for anonymity – was sent to a base unit at HMS Ferret in Derry with five members of 30 Commando, Royal Marines; their job was to "prepare and supply equipment" (incendiary and explosive charges) for 15 marines and two officers aboard the "Royal Fleet Auxiliary Tugboat Tamara which was disguised as a trawler".

    The Tamara
    Ho ho, cried Inspector Fisk when he caught sight of these words in our reader's letter. For the Tamara had appeared in my Trinity College thesis. It was commanded by Lieutenant Commander W R "Tiny" Fell who went on to design midget submarines and who had spent – according to my own research – a fruitless few weeks searching for German U-boats off the west coast of Ireland, or Eire as it was then known.
    Our reader's dad, however, believed that the Tamara was on no wild goose chase. "Father regularly, as did many British servicemen, changed into civvies and nipped across the Eire border for a crafty drink. He usually went to the village of Dunfanaghy. Favourite haunts were... Molly's Bar, Arnolds Hotel and McGilloway's."
    All still exist. Molly's Bar even has a Facebook page which boasts of its "craic" and McGilloway's is famous for oysters. Now, at least. But then? Our reader's dad "told me that one of the Irish landlords insisted he did not go into the snug since 'other gentlemen officers' were already there. He sneaked a look and discovered these were U-boat officers, whose craft were laying up in remote inlets on the coast, come ashore for unofficial R and R, and wearing their uniforms because Ireland was neutral."
    Blowing up fuel tanks?
    On 12 September 1940, our SOE man was loading explosives on to Fell's Tamara, replacing them 11 days later when the boat returned to Derry. Fell was apparently blowing up fuel tanks in Cork which could be used to supply U-boats. Newly released British Cabinet papers suggest U-boat
    Submarine.jpg One of eight U-boats that arrived in Derry after the German surrender in 1945
    sightings in 1939 west of the Blasket Islands and near Bundoran, County Donegal. And they also state that, although "there was... no evidence proving the existence of refuelling bases, there was evidence that U-boats were... quite possibly... landing crews for purposes of relaxation and obtaining fresh provisions." Other reports of U-boat landings – except one in Bantry Bay "from a reliable [sic] source" – could "neither be accepted, nor wholly discounted".
    ‘German U-boats here in force’
    Guy Liddell, the director of wartime British counter-espionage, wrote that he had asked Colonel Liam Archer of Ireland's G2 military intelligence about U-boat landings, to which the alleged reply was: "They are here in force, we can't do anything." According to Liddell, Archer said that a U-boat called in three times a week at a base at the mouth of the Doonbeg river, County Clare. Archer, who was a senior liaison officer at a secret meeting with the British, is on record as telling them that some Irish ports did not even have permanent military guards (but not as admitting that U-boat packs were flocking to Irish coastal waters).
    Archer also gave British intelligence details of equipment, found on three captured German agents in Skibbereen, which included explosives inside a tin of French peas intended to blow up Buckingham Palace. Archer would not let the Brits interview the three German prisoners.
    I can well see why. For before this glorious secret history takes hold of your imagination, there are one or two snags. Quite apart from the British Cabinet's lack of evidence, our reader's father suggested that the fuel storage tanks in the Republic might in fact be part of a smuggling racket between Eire and Northern Ireland (which, by the way, still continues). And our reader himself admits that "many of the suppositions about German forces in the Irish Republic may be down to the very German-looking uniforms used by the Irish at the time but which were changed in the 1940s".
    All of which is correct. Norwegian Allied troops also used German-style helmets in 1940 – often prompting patriotic Englishmen to arrest them. In 1979, not long before he died, Frank Aiken, IRA veteran and wartime minister of "coordination for defensive measures" told me that "no German U-boat landed on the Irish coast – if it had done, I think I would have heard about it."
    Philip Mountbatten and his Irish love interest
    And so do I. But our reader's dad wasn't the only Brit to cross the border for rest and relaxation. Several Royal Navy officers regularly arrived in Donegal to go duck shooting at Drumbeg and Lough Eske in 1940. One of them, so they told me in the village of Inver, courted a girl who worked in a local post office. His name? RN Lieutenant Philip Mountbatten, later Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, Lord High Admiral, originally from the House of Schelswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksberg, regarded still by villagers of distant Vanuatu as a god.'

    Saturday July 30th 2011

    Sligo Heritage received this email, in reference to the above article, from Gerry Daly:

    'Joe, I have just read your web page about Ireland's neutrality during WW11. I was particularly interested about the R.A.F flying boat being towed into Bundoran. My father Francis Daly and his brother William were the Bundoran fishermen who towed the plane to safety. They were paid ten shillings for their efforts. My father also told me that on another occasion he brought a dead soldier or airman into the boat quay.

    http://www.sligoheritage.com/history%28shannon%29.htm


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,355 ✭✭✭Belfast


    Nooodles wrote: »
    Paddy Reid was my grandfather. He was a hero full stop.
    These men did not desert out of cowardice, they left the relative safety of Ireland to fight on the front lines. My grandfather fought bravely, he suffered greatly for his time spent in the Army.

    For those who simply state he and the 1000's of others were simply 'deserters' and nothing else you are very much mistaken.

    No one said that deserted out of cowardice.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Nooodles wrote: »
    Paddy Reid was my grandfather. He was a hero full stop.
    These men did not desert out of cowardice, they left the relative safety of Ireland to fight on the front lines. My grandfather fought bravely, he suffered greatly for his time spent in the Army.

    For those who simply state he and the 1000's of others were simply 'deserters' and nothing else you are very much mistaken.

    Welcome Nooodles. Could you give us more information about your grandfather. It is easy to take a 'by the book' approach to this subject so a first hand view would be very helpful to the discussion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Nooodles wrote: »
    Paddy Reid was my grandfather. He was a hero full stop.
    These men did not desert out of cowardice, they left the relative safety of Ireland to fight on the front lines. My grandfather fought bravely, he suffered greatly for his time spent in the Army.

    For those who simply state he and the 1000's of others were simply 'deserters' and nothing else you are very much mistaken.

    I have been trying to put together a more accurate account of the situation to that which is portrayed in the campaign and on the radio show.

    It is a historical issue and needs to be looked at relative to the values & standards etc at that time and the motivations of those involved.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9 Nooodles


    Nooodles wrote: »
    Paddy Reid was my grandfather. He was a hero full stop.
    These men did not desert out of cowardice, they left the relative safety of Ireland to fight on the front lines. My grandfather fought bravely, he suffered greatly for his time spent in the Army.

    For those who simply state he and the 1000's of others were simply 'deserters' and nothing else you are very much mistaken.

    Welcome Nooodles. Could you give us more information about your grandfather. It is easy to take a 'by the book' approach to this subject so a first hand view would be very helpful to the discussion.


    Thank you for this opportunity. I'll give a brief insight if that's ok.

    My grandfather was 16 years of age when he left to join the British army with his brother. He fought in Burma and was held captive by the Japanese. As it is well known the Japanese were particularly cruel. My grandfather did not give up.

    When he did return to Ireland, he was blacklisted completely. He was a brave man. And for those who feel he broke his oath to the nation, I'm sorry you feel that way. He did what he felt was right at the age of 16 and if anyone can put themselves in his shoes at 16 and say they would have done differently well then so be it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,467 ✭✭✭Oasis_Dublin


    Nooodles wrote: »
    Thank you for this opportunity. I'll give a brief insight if that's ok.

    My grandfather was 16 years of age when he left to join the British army with his brother. He fought in Burma and was held captive by the Japanese. As it is well known the Japanese were particularly cruel. My grandfather did not give up.

    When he did return to Ireland, he was blacklisted completely. He was a brave man. And for those who feel he broke his oath to the nation, I'm sorry you feel that way. He did what he felt was right at the age of 16 and if anyone can put themselves in his shoes at 16 and say they would have done differently well then so be it.

    So he joined the British Army at 16? How long had he been in the Irish Army before that?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9 Nooodles


    Nooodles wrote: »
    Thank you for this opportunity. I'll give a brief insight if that's ok.

    My grandfather was 16 years of age when he left to join the British army with his brother. He fought in Burma and was held captive by the Japanese. As it is well known the Japanese were particularly cruel. My grandfather did not give up.

    When he did return to Ireland, he was blacklisted completely. He was a brave man. And for those who feel he broke his oath to the nation, I'm sorry you feel that way. He did what he felt was right at the age of 16 and if anyone can put themselves in his shoes at 16 and say they would have done differently well then so be it.

    So he joined the British Army at 16? How long had he been in the Irish Army before that?

    My grandfather joined the Irish Army IDF in 1939, he would have been underage, he was roughly 15/16. He left whilst still 16 and joined the British army. Unfortunately I am unable to give an approx time for his time in the irish army


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Nooodles wrote: »
    Thank you for this opportunity. I'll give a brief insight if that's ok.

    My grandfather was 16 years of age when he left to join the British army with his brother. He fought in Burma and was held captive by the Japanese. As it is well known the Japanese were particularly cruel. My grandfather did not give up.

    When he did return to Ireland, he was blacklisted completely. He was a brave man. And for those who feel he broke his oath to the nation, I'm sorry you feel that way. He did what he felt was right at the age of 16 and if anyone can put themselves in his shoes at 16 and say they would have done differently well then so be it.

    The human aspect of this is interesting. It also demonstrates the problem with this issue. I think there was also a different attitude to wars in that era, a type of maturing into manhood for a 16 year old. Both sides of the argument can be understood, there is recognition by most people that a soldier fighting in Burma in WWII has performed a positive role. I would say it was positive for Ireland also and should be recognised in some way.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    The human aspect of this is interesting. It also demonstrates the problem with this issue. I think there was also a different attitude to wars in that era, a type of maturing into manhood for a 16 year old. Both sides of the argument can be understood, there is recognition by most people that a soldier fighting in Burma in WWII has performed a positive role. I would say it was positive for Ireland also and should be recognised in some way.

    What do you think the british army were doing in burma in '39? Protecting democracy? :confused:. A lot of Burmese initially sided with Japan just to expel the British.

    Fighting for the british in burma was not much different to fighting for the nazi's in france.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,355 ✭✭✭Belfast


    Nooodles wrote: »

    No one said that they deserted out of cowardice.


    In my post I gave my opinion that they did not leave out of cowardice, the bravery of these men is well documented.

    Yes their bravery is well documented.

    Does you grand father get a British Army Pension?

    Hope he does after his war time service.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9 Nooodles


    Bambi wrote: »
    The human aspect of this is interesting. It also demonstrates the problem with this issue. I think there was also a different attitude to wars in that era, a type of maturing into manhood for a 16 year old. Both sides of the argument can be understood, there is recognition by most people that a soldier fighting in Burma in WWII has performed a positive role. I would say it was positive for Ireland also and should be recognised in some way.

    What do you think the british army were doing in burma in '39? Protecting democracy? :confused:. A lot of Burmese initially sided with Japan just to expel the British.

    Fighting for the british in burma was not much different to fighting for the nazi's in france.

    Initially sided with the Japanese?? You mean they changed sides at some point.

    Your last comment is truly an eye opener, I would respond further but I'm a lady and I respect the rules of this forum.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9 Nooodles


    Belfast wrote: »
    Nooodles wrote: »

    No one said that they deserted out of cowardice.


    In my post I gave my opinion that they did not leave out of cowardice, the bravery of these men is well documented.

    Yes their bravery is well documented.

    Does you grand father get a British Army Pension?

    Hope he does after his war time service.


    My grandfather died in 1988 and no he didn't receive a pension!!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,355 ✭✭✭Belfast


    Bambi wrote: »
    What do you think the british army were doing in burma in '39? Protecting democracy? :confused:. A lot of Burmese initially sided with Japan just to expel the British.

    Fighting for the british in burma was not much different to fighting for the nazi's in france.


    Indeed no one in that war hand clean hands.

    Bengal famine of 1943
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,355 ✭✭✭Belfast


    Nooodles wrote: »
    My grandfather died in 1988 and no he didn't receive a pension!!

    That is odd. Having fought for Britain the least they should get is a pension.

    Eastern European who fought in Waffen SS in world war II got Germany army pensions after the Berlin wall came down.

    SS veterans are receiving German pensions in U.S.
    "German finance ministry that 1,500 former Latvian Waffen SS men were receiving pensions"
    http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/Holocaust/ss-receive-pensions.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9 Nooodles


    Belfast wrote: »
    Nooodles wrote: »
    My grandfather died in 1988 and no he didn't receive a pension!!

    That is odd. Having fought for Britain the least they should get is a pension.

    Eastern European who fought in Waffen SS in world war II got Germany army pensions after the Berlin wall came down.

    SS veterans are receiving German pensions in U.S.
    "German finance ministry that 1,500 former Latvian Waffen SS men were receiving pensions"
    http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/Holocaust/ss-receive-pensions.html

    Well my grandfather didn't, after being interred in a prison of war camp by the Japanese, freed, sent back to England for a year to recover from the treatment he received. Returned home to his family, blacklisted by the government. He worked each and every day of his life to provide for his family, and believe me they suffered greatly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9 Nooodles


    I appreciate being able to give some details on this thread. I understand people have different opinions, unfortunately what I have said has irked someone into sending a vile pm and as such I feel it's better for me to leave this forum.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9 Nooodles


    I appreciate being able to give some details on this thread. I understand people have different opinions, unfortunately what I have said has irked someone into sending a vile pm and as such I feel it's better for me to leave this forum.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Nooodles wrote: »
    I appreciate being able to give some details on this thread. I understand people have different opinions, unfortunately what I have said has irked someone into sending a vile pm and as such I feel it's better for me to leave this forum.
    I have sent you a PM regarding this. Your input is appreciated and you should not be bullied from posting.

    Moderator


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Noodles, it is possible to "Report Private Message" there would be a exclamation mark in a triangle sign (like a road sign) on the right hand side.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Nooodles wrote: »
    I appreciate being able to give some details on this thread. I understand people have different opinions, unfortunately what I have said has irked someone into sending a vile pm and as such I feel it's better for me to leave this forum.

    I started the thread because I found that the content of the BBC radio show & campaign portrayed the Irish as being anti-British during WWII which was far from being the case.

    Its a pity what has happened and I enjoyed your posts.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,548 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    Nooodles wrote: »
    I appreciate being able to give some details on this thread. I understand people have different opinions, unfortunately what I have said has irked someone into sending a vile pm and as such I feel it's better for me to leave this forum.

    I am sorry to see this type of behaviour,so please report it to the mod.I also have enjoyed your contributions as they give an important personal insight into the whole question and it should confirm to others that the situation was not black and white.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    kabakuyu wrote: »
    I also have enjoyed your contributions as they give an important personal insight into the whole question and it should confirm to others that the situation was not black and white.

    It was a very strange time.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    For those who read the Sunday Business Post Tom McGurk has an article about this subject entitled: Desertion in a dark hour can never be justified

    Unfortunatley it doesn't appear like you can get a free version online (not today anyways), if there was I would post a copy of it here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    For all that's being said the core issues seem to be that the soldiers who deserted found themselves being dishonourably discharged and convicted in absentia loosing any right to military pensions etc.


    The 4,983 deserters were dismissed under the Emergency Powers (No 362) Order 194.They were banned from public sector employment for 7 years.They were not punished otherwise.

    There are some claims that the children of deserters were placed in industrial schools and the order was essentially used by employers as an employment blacklist.

    It did allow them to return to the country, receive unemployment benefits etc and no other action was taken.


    Sinn Fein supports the pardons campaign. The IRA in the 1940s supported a Nazi invasion of Northern Ireland.


    Some Labour Party members support the campaign.

    Here is the Dail Debate from the time.

    http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/1945/10/18/00027.asp


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,457 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    11 page thread on this general issue over on 'Military' (Not the one linked to on Page 1)

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056505940

    Though the poll actually shows most respondants opining in favour of pardons, it is interesting to note that the posters who wear or wore Army Green are overwhelmingly against them and believe the punishments to be light at best.

    NTM


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    it is interesting to note that the posters who wear or wore Army Green are overwhelmingly against them and believe the punishments to be light at best.

    NTM

    That is the feeling that comes thru from the Dail Debates too.

    It does say the punishment portion is a lot less than would be administered by courts martial and administered by the British to conscripted Irish in Britain who deserted.

    The other thing that hit me was that the Army was set to shrink to pre-war levels and it might have been a method to positively discriminate towards men who had stayed in the service of the state and endured the hardships and lower pay.


  • Registered Users Posts: 159 ✭✭A.Tomas


    dubhthach wrote: »
    For those who read the Sunday Business Post Tom McGurk has an article about this subject entitled: Desertion in a dark hour can never be justified

    Unfortunatley it doesn't appear like you can get a free version online (not today anyways), if there was I would post a copy of it here.



    That's a shame, I would have liked to have seen that.

    It was indeed an hour of need for our freedom and democracy.

    What is a bit annoying though, is that the campaigner said that they should be pardoned because of the "maturity" and "friendship" we have with Britain. That's all well and good. But,
    people will have to understand, that it's not personal. They broke their oath to the defence of Ireland from Britain or Germany. They got off lightly, and now want to portray those who did their duty as Nazis.

    It undermines the Irish Defence Forces if they get pardoned.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    A.Tomas wrote: »
    ...
    people will have to understand, that it's not personal. They broke their oath to the defence of Ireland from Britain or Germany. They got off lightly, and now want to portray those who did their duty as Nazis.

    ...

    Please clarify where they tried to do this (underlined).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Please clarify where they tried to do this (underlined).

    Hasn't Gerald Morgan the Trinity Professor and campaign supporter said as much.
    Though Ireland was officially neutral, Trinity College professor Gerald Morgan said that as many as 60 per cent of the population hoped the Germans would win the war.


    http://www.thejournal.ie/shatter-considers-pardon-for-irish-soldiers-persecuted-for-fighting-hitler-319035-Jan2012/

    That clearly wasn't the situation.

    And the story has been picked up internationally

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/sinn-fein-to-back-pardons-for-deserters-who-fought-for-britain-in-world-war-ii/story-e6frg6so-1226236308833


  • Registered Users Posts: 159 ✭✭A.Tomas


    CDfm wrote: »
    Hasn't Gerald Morgan the Trinity Professor and campaign supporter said as much.


    That clearly wasn't the situation.

    And the story has been picked up internationally

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/sinn-fein-to-back-pardons-for-deserters-who-fought-for-britain-in-world-war-ii/story-e6frg6so-1226236308833



    Cheers CDfm.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    CDfm wrote: »
    Hasn't Gerald Morgan the Trinity Professor and campaign supporter said as much.
    Though Ireland was officially neutral, Trinity College professor Gerald Morgan said that as many as 60 per cent of the population hoped the Germans would win the war.
    http://www.thejournal.ie/shatter-con...19035-Jan2012/

    THere is a big difference in the above and saying this
    Originally Posted by A.Tomas
    They broke their oath to the defence of Ireland from Britain or Germany. They got off lightly, and now want to portray those who did their duty as Nazis.

    For a start using 'they' to ascribe a view of one man (Morgan) to the group of people (the deserters) which A. Thomas was referring to is misleading. Secondly Morgan referred to 60% of the general population, not the deserters.

    From there it is a big jump to say that if someone wanted the Germans to win the war in 1939/40 that they were 'Nazis'. If quoted text "They got off lightly, and now want to portray those who did their duty as Nazis." is to be accepted then I think it needs more basis or clarification than that given. In the context which it was used I don't think that has been done.
    Originally Posted by A.Tomas
    They broke their oath to the defence of Ireland from Britain or Germany. They got off lightly, and now want to portray those who did their duty as Nazis.
    No mention of Morgan.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I have found the campaign website

    http://www.forthesakeofexample.com/

    I don't know if Professor Morgan's views are representative of the group.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    CDfm wrote: »
    I have found the campaign website

    http://www.forthesakeofexample.com/

    I haven't been following this thread but CDfm did PM me the link to that particular site and asked me my opinion of it.

    I don't think he'll mind if I post my response to it here.
    I do find the constant references in the main text to 'de Valera's government' rather then the Irish government interesting. The implication being that this was a politically motivated move by Dev and a 'Cosgrave Government' (for example) would have acted differently.

    It seems to me that they are suggesting that Dev's government acted out of anti-British sentiment and not because as a new State the government had to act against those who, having given a solemn oath to serve that new State, shrugged off it's authority. For the government of the day to ignore this challenge to it's authority would have been to undermine the whole foundation of an emerging State.

    Their first set of links - re: Nazis in Ireland seems designed to suggest that the Irish authorities were 'Collaborators' with the Third Reich. When we know that in fact, Dev's government broke the spirit of neutrality by actively aiding the Allies (Donegal corridor, return of Allied airmen to GB etc).
    The fact that some Nazis did 'retire' to Ireland is proven - and possibly shameful - but some Nazis (especially those involved in rocket development) also 'retired' to the US to work for NASA.
    Much as I hate Nazis - if these men had not been convicted of a crime then I see no reason why they could not seek employment in a country against which they had not fought.

    What sums it up the tone of this site for me though is the constant use of the qualifying term 'alleged' before the word deserters. These men were convicted before a court martial so their 'crime' is no longer alleged but a legal fact. The use of 'alleged' muddies the waters and implies that they may have been wrongly convicted as they may not have committed a crime.
    I would imagine that the army had records pertaining to their enlistment. If they then 'left' without official sanction and joined the armed forces of another country (I assume there would be records of this 'new' enlistment too) that is technically desertion. No 'alleged' about it and the use of that term is disingenuous.

    Or was it 'alleged' desertion because the Irish Army was not a 'proper' army therefore there could be no 'desertion'. Can one 'desert' from the IRA or Al Q?

    I have sympathy for these men - and think given the exceptional circumstances they should be pardoned. After all - if GB fell it was only a matter of time before Ireland did. So technically, it could be argued that they were fighting to protect Irish independence.

    That particular site, however, leaves a bad taste in my mouth...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Thanks Bannasidhe, there is so much of what you say that I agree with.

    I must say that I am very uneasy about the Campaign website and part of it is that as an Irish guy who worked in England it uses a lot of the same language that I associate with anti irish rhetoric from back in the day.

    If there are reasons why those convicted should be "pardoned" then they are not given on the site.

    I do not know what I was expecting on the campaign's website but I was not expecting the level of anti-Irish sentiment I found.


  • Registered Users Posts: 159 ✭✭A.Tomas


    THere is a big difference in the above and saying this

    For a start using 'they' to ascribe a view of one man (Morgan) to the group of people (the deserters) which A. Thomas was referring to is misleading. Secondly Morgan referred to 60% of the general population, not the deserters.

    From there it is a big jump to say that if someone wanted the Germans to win the war in 1939/40 that they were 'Nazis'. If quoted text "They got off lightly, and now want to portray those who did their duty as Nazis." is to be accepted then I think it needs more basis or clarification than that given. In the context which it was used I don't think that has been done. No mention of Morgan.

    "if someone wanted the Germans to win the war in 1939/40 that they were 'Nazis'."

    Well, it is pretty close.


    "In the context which it was used I don't think that has been done."

    The context is a BBC programme, I think, from my experience, that they do not have a layered or in anyway competent knowledge of Irish history, but a very benevolent and biased view of their own. So I do think it was an obnoxious remark to make.


    With regard to others in the campaign, implying they were between poor (like everyone else), conspired against (apart from their punishment) and afraid to go out in public for fear of arrest! (like one man), it does not sound like they have any problem with what's being said on their behalf.


  • Registered Users Posts: 159 ✭✭A.Tomas


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I haven't been following this thread but CDfm did PM me the link to that particular site and asked me my opinion of it.

    I don't think he'll mind if I post my response to it here.



    I have to admit that the British nationalistic tone would colour my opinion of some of the men, that is that they'd want to be involved with these.

    (Incidentally, Dev is probably the only Irish politician,many British back in the day have ever heard of. They probably blame him for breaking up their empire or something. He was part Spanish, he was a Catholic (instead of being in the Church of England) ... oh ... and he was the democratically elected leader of Ireland when they occupied the country and tried to kill off his elected government).

    I remember a raving luny British loyalist from the north had a website that said that train tracks from Dublin to Belfast were made to direct German bombers! (as opposed to be for trains), and that the Irish govt were Nazis.

    These guys, unfortunately seem similar, although I do agree with much of your response.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,548 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    CDfm wrote: »
    Thanks Bannasidhe, there is so much of what you say that I agree with.

    I must say that I am very uneasy about the Campaign website and part of it is that as an Irish guy who worked in England it uses a lot of the same language that I associate with anti irish rhetoric from back in the day.

    If there are reasons why those convicted should be "pardoned" then they are not given on the site.

    I do not know what I was expecting on the campaign's website but I was not expecting the level of anti-Irish sentiment I found.

    I thought the website left a lot to be desired and does appear to have different agendas( not just the pardon for the men.), I can't help but find similiarites with this site http://markhumphrys.com/sfira.tyranny.html
    I wonder if there is a crossover in the people involved in both sites.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    kabakuyu wrote: »
    I thought the website left a lot to be desired and does appear to have different agendas( not just the pardon for the men.), I can't help but find similiarites with this site http://markhumphrys.com/sfira.tyranny.html
    I wonder if there is a crossover in the people involved in both sites.

    The politics isn't my bag , and really I was wary of bringing it up, my problem with the website is that it is not only historically incorrect but has more than a hint of anti-irishness about it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    kabakuyu wrote: »
    I thought the website left a lot to be desired and does appear to have different agendas( not just the pardon for the men.), I can't help but find similiarites with this site http://markhumphrys.com/sfira.tyranny.html
    I wonder if there is a crossover in the people involved in both sites.

    There are marked similarities alright. I did laugh though at someone whose banner describes them as pro-American (I will tactfully ignore the pro-Israel notice as I haven't the interest or energy to engage in a Zionist Vs Palestinian flame war ;) ) complaining about anyone supporting tyranny.... (*coff* Pinochet *coff*)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Nooodles wrote: »
    Initially sided with the Japanese?? You mean they changed sides at some point.

    Your last comment is truly an eye opener, I would respond further but I'm a lady and I respect the rules of this forum.

    Deary me. My grandfather was in the IRA during WW2, spent some of it in Jail. People could call him a traitor or a criminal and they would have a case, technically speaking. I'm a grown up so I can accept that. Same for goes you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Bambi wrote: »
    Deary me. My grandfather was in the IRA during WW2, spent some of it in Jail. People could call him a traitor or a criminal and they would have a case, technically speaking. I'm a grown up so I can accept that. Same for goes you.

    Actually that's a good point re: IRA members interned during 'The Emergency'. I don't know very much about this area so did a quick wiki (I know...:( ):
    The IRA and The Emergency

    Main articles: Irish Republican Army (1922-1969) and Fifth column
    In the early months of the emergency, the greatest threat to the State came from the IRA. In the Christmas Raid in 1939, one million rounds of ammunition were stolen from the Irish Army by the IRA (though it was mostly recovered in the following weeks)[13] and there were a number of killings, mostly of policemen.[14] In addition, the existing emergency legislation was undermined by the obtaining of a writ of habeas corpus by Seán MacBride which resulted in the release of all those who had been interned. The government responded with the 1939 and 1940 Offences Against the State Acts, which established the Special Criminal Court, and rearrested and interned IRA activists. A hunger strike was started in Mountjoy Prison in an attempt to gain political status, which collapsed after the death of two prisoners. In retaliation Dublin Castle was bombed and there were a number of serious incidents throughout the country.
    The IRA fostered links with German intelligence (the Abwehr) and Foreign Ministry, with men such as Francis Stuart travelling to Germany to talk, though these attempts were largely ineffectual due to a combination of Abwehr and Foreign Ministry incompetence and IRA weakness.[15] Germans also came to Ireland, the most notable of whom was Hermann Görtz, who was captured in possession of "Plan Kathleen"- an IRA plan that detailed a German supported invasion of Northern Ireland. (See also: Irish Republican Army – Abwehr collaboration in World War II).
    Two IRA men were executed for the murder of two policemen in September 1940, and the IRA became increasingly ineffective in the face of the resolute use of internment, the breaking of hunger strikes, and the application of hanging for capital offences. During 1941, the hope of a German invasion had faded and funding from the United States had been cut off. The IRA leadership were mostly interned within the Curragh Camp, where they were treated increasingly harshly, or on the run. Most internees accepted release on parole. The IRA remained barely active in Northern Ireland, but they were not a threat to the stability of Ireland
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(Ireland)#The_IRA_and_The_Emergency

    What was/is now the legal status of these men? Given they were interned without trial did this mean there were no legal charges made against them? Was there ever a 'pardon' or apology issued by the State especially in light of Article 9 of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights which states that, "No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile."?

    Edited to ask: Were all those interned men? What about women who were active Republicans? I'll have to dig out my box set of RTE's excellent Seven Ages and watch that episode again.

    Now how the hell do I connect my 'conversation piece' retro chic VCR (conversation piece = to lazy to get rid of. Retro chic = old ;) ) to the fancy TV?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    A PARDON for thousands of Irish soldiers who deserted from the Defence Forces to fight for the Allies in the second World War is on the way, Minister for Defence Alan Shatter has indicated.

    While the Minister awaits formal advice from Attorney General Máire Whelan about how to proceed, he has said he regards the dishonourable discharge of soldiers who left to fight for the Allies as untenable.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0125/1224310710060.html

    Looks like they will get their pardons.


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