Bloody Sunday soldier to be charged with murder

zapitastas · 15-03-2019 11:00am

janfebmar wrote: »

In this picture taken minutes before the firing on Bloody Sunday you can get an idea of the tensions at the time. All of the stones / rocks on the road do not justify shots / firing.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/bloody-sunday-paras-were-the-wrong-regiment-in-the-wrong-place-1.2424550
Just because two policemen (one Catholic and one Protestant) were shot in Derry only three days before Bloody Sunday does not justify violence on the day itself. The soldiers should have followed the rule of law. No excuse for soldiers for firing live rounds , or indeed for the IRA man (who Fr. Daly saw and testified about firing three rounds) either. There were innocent people killed that day and that was wrong.

What a shameful disingenuous post. You are as transparent as a new pane of glass

steddyeddy · 15-03-2019 11:06am

zapitastas wrote: »

What a shameful disingenuous post. You are as transparent as a new pane of glass

Was that not in another thread Zap?

Plumbthedepths · 15-03-2019 11:16am

steddyeddy wrote:

On another note it's interesting to hear my English colleagues, the English media and English politicians describe the troubles as a "war" now. I'm not sure they understand the implications of that.

Hopefully someone will explain the concept of 'war crimes' to them.

zapitastas · 15-03-2019 11:16am

steddyeddy wrote: »

Was that not in another thread Zap?

No was just a number of posts back. Will be an onslaught of attempts to mitigate the slaughter of civil rights protestors and to excuse the actions of the British state. Cloaked with feigned condemnation of the actions of one soldier, the actions of the British state and on the parachute regiment in particular will be given a free pass. I like how we are told to move on all if a sudden. The sooner the insidious interference of the British state is removed from the entirety of the island the sooner we move on and draw a line under the past

howiya · 15-03-2019 11:19am

Berserker wrote: »

It may be sullied in the eyes of the nationalist community on the northern part of island and the republican community south of the border, two communities who have questionable morals as is but the rest of the people on the island understand what it stands for. It'll be worn and celebrated with pride later this year, as usual.

Two communities who have questionable morals... Nice sweeping statement there.

What questionable morals do one half of the population of the north display?

steddyeddy · 15-03-2019 11:26am

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Hopefully someone will explain the concept of 'war crimes' to them.

To be honest looking at Brexit I think explaining logic would be wasted.

Berserker · 15-03-2019 12:17pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Beserker I work in New York, Colorado and England. Disgust with Bloody Sunday and the behavioural of soldiers in Northern Ireland isn't confined to the nationalist community of Northern Ireland. Bloody Sunday is all I've been hearing about in America and the Americans will be watching very closely for justice to be served.

Sure about that? Not seeing anything on CNN about it. Ditto for the Beeb. I don't have Fox anymore, so I can't comment on that. I used to live in NY and Houston myself. My friends in the US wouldn't know anything about it. It's barely getting mentioned on Irish TV this morning, let alone international TV. TV3 were talking about romances that started in Coppers!

steddyeddy · 15-03-2019 12:23pm

Berserker wrote: »

Sure about that? Not seeing anything on CNN about it. Ditto for the Beeb. I don't have Fox anymore, so I can't comment on that. I used to live in NY and Houston myself. My friends in the US wouldn't even know what it is. It's barely getting mentioned on Irish TV this morning, let alone international TV. TV3 were talking about romances that started in Coppers!

To be honest Beserker I'm finding it hard to believe you talked to people in those places. The US is a country built by Irish Americans. Every second person tells me they have Irish blood and are more clued up about the troubles/war than the average British person. Here's the CNN link. I'll give you a chance to search for more. You should easily find them but if not I can link.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/14/uk/bloody-sunday-verdict-intl/index.html

Bloody Sunday was one of the darkest episodes in Northern Ireland's Troubles. On 30 January 1972 troops fired on unarmed protesters in a civil rights march in Derry, also known as Londonderry, killing 13 people and wounding 15. One injured man died four months later.

jmayo · 15-03-2019 12:46pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Also, unlike for those murdered by paramilitaries, the families of those killed by the British Army suffered the stigma of having their loved-ones described as nail-bombers and shooters. When the soldiers were found innocent it automatically laid the blame with those they killed.

Shure they did the same thing with Liverpool fans who were killed due to the ineptitude, ignorance and arrogance of their police.
One of their first ports of call when they fook up is to blame the victims and drag their names through the mire, usually done with the aid of some of their press.

Berserker wrote: »

It may be sullied in the eyes of the nationalist community on the northern part of island and the republican community south of the border, two communities who have questionable morals as is but the rest of the people on the island understand what it stands for. It'll be worn and celebrated with pride later this year, as usual.

And what of the morals of the British Army, the British establishment that sent out the paras that day and then stood behind their actions.
Ever hear of a gent called Widgery, now that was a guy with questionable morals.:rolleyes:

You will be hard pressed to find people, even amongst the most devout anti provos, who would not agree that the paras acted like murdering scum that day in Derry and that the cover up by their regiment, the British army and the entire establishment was an abominable miscarriage of justice.

After the action of the paras both during and after Bloody Sunday means that people like me, anti PIRA/shinner, would actually not see much wrong with members of their regiment getting blown to sh** in Warrenpoint.

It is one of the only actions of the PIRA that I don't care about.

The proud name hard won by the paras in places like Arnhem was dragged through the mire due to Bloody Sunday.

Gimme A Pound · 15-03-2019 3:33pm

Berserker and janfebmar in "downplaying Bloody Sunday" shocker. What is with this pathology among some Irish folk?

riffmongous · 15-03-2019 3:40pm

It was on the front page of the Austrian news website yesterday

https://orf.at/stories/3115123/

arybvtcw0eolkf · 15-03-2019 5:56pm

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

there was a legal expert, Eoin Paul McDermott on TV earlier explaining why it is so difficult to get a criminal prosecution/conviction. Proof beyond all reasonable doubt, proving intent etc. etc.

surely if a bullet is removed from a corpse, and forensic analysis can prove that bullet was fired from a certain weapon, then am i naive to imagine the person who discharged that weapon is guilty of murder? am i missing something?

i would say put them before a jury or an independent judge, and let them decide.

Ok just playing devils advocate here, and speaking with the experience of shooting high velocity ammunition.. I'd imagine a defence there would/could be there the victim wasn't the intended target simply on the grounds that bullets generally don't stop flying until they hit something.

So soldier XYZ says he was firing warning/contain shots or whatever a lying prick wants to say and hadn't sighted the victim, or the victim walked into the line of trajectory, a ricoheto round etc ~ I'd imagine it would be very easy to put responsible doubt into a jurors mind.

I really thought there'd be riots in Derry last night, I'm delighted to see the city maintained its dignity.

steddyeddy · 15-03-2019 6:01pm

Nicholas Thoughtless Searchlight wrote: »

Ok just playing devils advocate here, and speaking with the experience of shooting high velocity ammunition.. I'd imagine a defence there would/could be there the victim wasn't the intended target simply on the grounds that bullets generally don't stop flying until they hit something.

So soldier XYZ says he was firing warning/contain shots or whatever a lying prick wants to say and hadn't sighted the victim, or the victim walked into the line of trajectory, a ricoheto round etc ~ I'd imagine it would be very easy to put responsible doubt into a jurors mind.

I really thought there'd be riots in Derry last night, I'm delighted to see the city maintained its dignity.

That's a fair point but soldier F said he was aiming at some of the victims that he killed. His defence in the Saville inquiry is that he thought the victim was armed.

votecounts · 15-03-2019 6:09pm

Berserker wrote: »

Got a crystal ball, have you?

I'll be buying one and wearing it with pride. A very poor attempt to sully the poppy on your part.

So you'll be supporting fcuckers who murdered 14 innocent civilians, says an awful a lot about you.

Wheres Me Jumper? · 15-03-2019 6:10pm

Nicholas Thoughtless Searchlight wrote: »

Ok just playing devils advocate here, and speaking with the experience of shooting high velocity ammunition.. I'd imagine a defence there would/could be there the victim wasn't the intended target simply on the grounds that bullets generally don't stop flying until they hit something.

So soldier XYZ says he was firing warning/contain shots or whatever a lying prick wants to say and hadn't sighted the victim, or the victim walked into the line of trajectory, a ricoheto round etc ~ I'd imagine it would be very easy to put responsible doubt into a jurors mind.

I really thought there'd be riots in Derry last night, I'm delighted to see the city maintained its dignity.

i hear what you're saying, but i dont buy it.

if you drove your car at 80 mph into a crowded street killing a few people, do you think a defence of "i never expected that kid to cross, or the lady with the buggy just never looked" should hold up?
i would doubt it.
same should apply here. these guys discharged high velocity weapons into a crowded street. was it not reasonable to expect people to be injured or killed?

arybvtcw0eolkf · 15-03-2019 6:12pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

That's a fair point but soldier F said he was aiming at some of the victims that he killed. His defence in the Saville inquiry is that he thought the victim was armed.

Oh I know, I'm just playing devils advocate and pointing out how reasonable doubt could be put into the minds of jurors in terms of prosecuting other soldiers.. I'm not versed in law but I'd imagine a prosecutor would have to weigh off this simple defence in the case of others.

Gimme A Pound · 15-03-2019 6:44pm

Berserker wrote: »

I'll be buying one and wearing it with pride. A very poor attempt to sully the poppy on your part.

Pride in what?

Wheres Me Jumper? · 15-03-2019 6:56pm

Berserker wrote: »

Got a crystal ball, have you?

I'll be buying one and wearing it with pride. A very poor attempt to sully the poppy on your part.

i'm afraid the only ones who have sullied your precious poppy are those killers who slaughtered innocents.
a very poor attempt at justifying mass-murder on your part.

Plumbthedepths · 15-03-2019 7:07pm

Zaire Melodic Vitamin wrote:

Pride in what?

Supporting murderer's I assume.

Strumms · 15-03-2019 7:07pm

Feisar wrote: »

People trained as aggressive front line soldiers acted like aggressive front line soldiers. Hard to blame the individuals, they people that thought it a good idea are at fault.

If one has a hammer everything looks like a nail, soldiers have guns, what do you expect them to do, they are one trick ponies.

They shouldn’t be but obviously were.

They were supposedly well trained, disciplined army men. Their actions showed otherwise. The best training can and never would be good enough if the recipient of said training is of a deeply unsuitable, malevolent and psycopathic individual(s). You can blame stress and issues of the day but the fact is and has been that hundreds of thousands if not more British troops have been deployed over the world, before and since, often into more pressurized and inherently dangerous locations and have not resorted to murder.

Edgware · 15-03-2019 7:10pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

To be honest Beserker I'm finding it hard to believe you talked to people in those places. The US is a country built by Irish Americans. Every second person tells me they have Irish blood and are more clued up about the troubles/war than the average British person. Here's the CNN link. I'll give you a chance to search for more. You should easily find them but if not I can link.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/14/uk/bloody-sunday-verdict-intl/index.html

"The US is a country built by Irish Americans" and thousands of people from every country in the world. The way the Irish bull**** about it you'd swear they got there first and had it all built and ready for the rest of the world to visit

Odhinn · 15-03-2019 7:16pm

Strumms wrote: »

They shouldn’t be but obviously were.

They were supposedly well trained, disciplined army men. Their actions showed otherwise. The best training can and never would be good enough if the recipient of said training is of a deeply unsuitable, malevolent and psycopathic individual(s). You can blame stress and issues of the day but the fact is and has been that hundreds of thousands if not more British troops have been deployed over the world, before and since, often into more pressurized and inherently dangerous locations and have not resorted to murder.

....no. They acted exactly as they would anywhere they were deployed - go in hard, teach the natives a lesson. There was no "hollywood" spraying of rounds - targets were selected and picked off. 108 bullets from 20 soldiers over about half an hour.

Gimme A Pound · 15-03-2019 7:20pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Supporting murderer's I assume.

Think they're a unionist. If they're an Irish Catholic, well then they're just an attention seeker. Don't get why a hardline unionist would live in the republic of Ireland. I do know two people from a unionist background in the North who live down here but they're both lovely people who certainly don't think they're superior and they respect other traditions. And they certainly would not dismiss the victims of Bloody Sunday.

But wearing a poppy with pride though - pride in what? Winding people up? (It doesn't bother me as much as it bothers others - I don't see anything wrong with honouring those who e.g. fought the nazis, so long as people are not just wearing it to antagonise).

Wheres Me Jumper? · 15-03-2019 7:22pm

Odhinn wrote: »

....no. They acted exactly as they would anywhere they were deployed - go in hard, teach the natives a lesson. There was no "hollywood" spraying of rounds - targets were selected and picked off. 108 bullets from 20 soldiers over about half an hour.

indeed. it was not indiscriminate, panicked shooting. it was targeted & diciplined killing.

even their commander Derek Wilford admits so,

"I don't believe they were capable of that sort of indiscriminate shooting and killing," he said.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-47559123

steddyeddy · 15-03-2019 7:27pm

Edgware wrote: »

"The US is a country built by Irish Americans" and thousands of people from every country in the world. The way the Irish bull**** about it you'd swear they got there first and had it all built and ready for the rest of the world to visit

To deny a strong connection between the foundations of modern American and Irish immigrants is fantasy.

Wheres Me Jumper? · 15-03-2019 7:32pm

some of you may have seen this already. disgusting.

This is their response...bugged conversation from Victoria Barracks, Derry on Bloody Sunday 1972.

According to conversation between security force personnel, General Robert Ford, then deputy commanding officer in Northern Ireland, was jubilant at the outcome. "Yeah ... he said it was the best thing he'd seen for a long time."

Three weeks before Bloody Sunday he had recommended shooting selected ringleaders of the youths in the city.

https://www.facebook.com/bangbangD7/videos/298591060814898/

Edgware · 15-03-2019 7:36pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

To deny a strong connection between the foundations of modern American and Irish immigrants is fantasy.

.
No one is denying the link but Italians, Germans, English, Chinese etc had as important a part to play in the development of the U.S. Just study the immigration figures
"We built America" is wheeled out every year at this time to try and get Visas

Laois_Man · 15-03-2019 8:31pm

The Bloody Sunday movie....always worth a watch....fantastic performance by James Nesbitt

Uncharted · 15-03-2019 8:42pm

Berserker wrote: »

I'll be buying one and wearing it with pride. A very poor attempt to sully the poppy on your part.

Classy quote in a Bloody Sunday thread.

Real classy.

I'd expect no more from a Glasgow Rangers supporter.

Wheres Me Jumper? · 15-03-2019 9:51pm

Bloody Sunday has taken its own toll on Derek Wilford, debilitated by Parkinson's disease and age. Climbing the stairs, too narrow for his Zimmer frame, to his artist's studio, is a struggle.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-47559123

nice to see a little cosmic karma kicking in.:D

steddyeddy · 15-03-2019 10:06pm

Edgware wrote: »

.
No one is denying the link but Italians, Germans, English, Chinese etc had as important a part to play in the development of the U.S. Just study the immigration figures
"We built America" is wheeled out every year at this time to try and get Visas

Immigration figures VS contributions? Name an Italian American or Chinese president? Several of the names of the declaration of independence are Irish.

RandomName2 · 15-03-2019 10:11pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

13 people murdered, only one out of 18 named paratroopers to be tried. British justice at its best. He'll probably die before he faces the dock.

A number of those paratroopers should have faced life imprisonment. Mind you, let us not forget the number of murders who, convicted, roam free and immune to prosecution due to Good Friday concessions.

FrancieBrady · 15-03-2019 10:14pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

A number of those paratroopers should have faced life imprisonment. Mind you, let us not forget the number of murders who, convicted, roam free and immune to prosecution due to Good Friday concessions.

Any republican caught was tried and imprisoned.

If you committed murder as a soldier or an officer, you faced no penalty even 40 years after your crime and even when your PM is forced to apologise for your actions.

RandomName2 · 15-03-2019 10:18pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Any republican caught was tried and imprisoned.

And released.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If you committed murder as a soldier or an officer, you faced no penalty even 40 years after your crime and even when your PM is forced to apologise for your actions.

One can't help but think of Mai Lai.

Fann Linn · 15-03-2019 10:19pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

A number of those paratroopers should have faced life imprisonment. Mind you, let us not forget the number of murders who, convicted, roam free and immune to prosecution due to Good Friday concessions.

The British Army & RUC could have availed of the same terms regarding amnesty etc as laid down in the GFA. However, for some reason they didn't want to be equated with paramilitaries/ terrorists.

Some of us I suppose have always equated them in the same vein and this event just highlights it.

janfebmar · 15-03-2019 10:21pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Immigration figures VS contributions? Name an Italian American or Chinese president? Several of the names of the declaration of independence are Irish.

Indeed no fewer than seventeen Presidents of America can trace their ancestry back to the 6 counties which became N. Ireland (they were " Scotch- Irish" ) .
Then of course we have Kennedy and the greatest Irishman of them all, Barack Obama.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Americans_of_Irish_descent#Presidents
So the Irish have made a big contribution to the States.

FrancieBrady · 15-03-2019 10:22pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

And released.

One can't help but think of Mai Lai.

I don't really care if these old men spend actual time in jail, the fact they are tried is the important point.

janfebmar · 15-03-2019 10:33pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

let us not forget the number of murders who, convicted, roam free and immune to prosecution due to Good Friday concessions.

That was the spirit of the time, people were released from both sides and was well known. What apparently was not well known was the "On the Runs" (OTRs) scheme,where letters were sent to more than 200 republican paramilitary suspects.

FrancieBrady · 15-03-2019 10:35pm

janfebmar wrote: »

That was the spirit of the time, people were released from both sides and was well known. What apparently was not well known was the "On the Runs" (OTRs) scheme,where letters were sent to more than 200 republican paramilitary suspects.

Plenty of British Army killers roaming free. For 50 years almost, in the case of Bloody Sunday.

Wheres Me Jumper? · 15-03-2019 10:38pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

A number of those paratroopers should have faced life imprisonment. Mind you, let us not forget the number of murders who, convicted, roam free and immune to prosecution due to Good Friday concessions.

spot on!

a well balanced point of view.
as with all conflicts, there have been many wrongs/injustices committed by and against all sides.

a truth & reconciliation commission similar to South Africa was probably the best way to proceed, but getting all sides to commit has proven impossible. personally i've always felt the british state had more to hide than the terrorists, probably 'cos they like to see themselves as "the good guys"

janfebmar · 15-03-2019 10:42pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Plenty of British Army killers roaming free..

Of the over 300,000 of them who served in N. Ireland, what % of them do you think were killers?

FrancieBrady · 15-03-2019 10:43pm

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

spot on!

a well balanced point of view.
as with all conflicts, there have been many wrongs/injustices committed by and against all sides.

a truth & reconciliation commission similar to South Africa was probably the best way to proceed, but getting all sides to commit has proven impossible. personally i've always felt the british state had more to hide than the terrorists, probably 'cos they like to see themselves as "the good guys"

The only 'sides' that say NO to this are the British and Loyalist/Unionist side. Preferring to spin that the RA would not tell the truth.

FrancieBrady · 15-03-2019 10:43pm

janfebmar wrote: »

Of the over 300,000 of them who served in N. Ireland, what % of them do you think were killers?

Those that killed.

Fann Linn · 15-03-2019 10:45pm

janfebmar wrote: »

Of the over 300,000 of them who served in N. Ireland, what % of them do you think were killers?

Probably more than will ever be convicted.

janfebmar · 15-03-2019 10:48pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Those that killed.

You still have not answered the question. Of the over 300,000 of them who served in N. Ireland, what % of them do you think were killers?

FrancieBrady · 15-03-2019 10:50pm

janfebmar wrote: »

You still have not answered the question. Of the over 300,000 of them who served in N. Ireland, what % of them do you think were killers?

Much too early to say.

steddyeddy · 15-03-2019 10:52pm

janfebmar wrote: »

You still have not answered the question. Of the over 300,000 of them who served in N. Ireland, what % of them do you think were killers?

Well we know that soldier F and the regiment involved in Bloody Sunday was the catalyst for the troubles. So their presence that day and the subsequent cover up sparked the whole war.

Plumbthedepths · 15-03-2019 10:53pm

janfebmar wrote:

You still have not answered the question. Of the over 300,000 of them who served in N. Ireland, what % of them do you think were killers?

What's the relevance? We know 18 Paras were implicated in the Bloody Sunday murders which is the subject matter of this thread.

janfebmar · 15-03-2019 10:55pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The only 'sides' that say NO to this are the British and Loyalist/Unionist side. Preferring to spin that the RA would not tell the truth.

Do they? In the case of just one murder, that of Jean McColville for example, did they not tell her abandoned kids that she ran off with a British soldier? Yet when her remains were accidentally discovered due to beach erosion in Co Louth decades later, and did not her post-mortem results point to torture?

FrancieBrady · 15-03-2019 10:57pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well we know that soldier F and the regiment involved in Bloody Sunday was the catalyst for the troubles. So their presence that day and the subsequent cover up sparked the whole war.

I was a boy and remember it vividly, our town on the border shut down for 3 days. My dad reckoned it changed the entire course of events, and as an Enniskillen man himself, reckoned there would be no return to normality after it. It profoundly changed the course of events and why wouldn't it in all honesty.

Bloody Sunday soldier to be charged with murder

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