Dafuq is this bollox?

Pretzill · 22-10-2018 11:30pm

corner of hells wrote: »

Withdrawal from heroin or methadone ?

I don't understand the question - they are almost the same drug? But I would advocate getting rid of methadone as a treatment option. It may work for some as they lower dose incrementally but many drug users merely add methadone on top or search for another fix later.

corner of hells · 22-10-2018 11:34pm

Pretzill wrote: »

I don't understand the question - they are almost the same drug? But I would advocate getting rid of methadone as a treatment option. It may work for some as they lower dose incrementally but many drug users merely add methadone on top or search for another fix later.

At the moment heroin is illegal so you can't get any support detoxing off it , well there us one place that sets very strict criteria.
Methadone , you can get a supervised medical or therapeutic detox , either residential or in the community .

bilbot79 · 22-10-2018 11:35pm

It worked in The Wire

Odhinn · 22-10-2018 11:36pm

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Define well? has (/..............)ug dealers and addicts

You already said you couldn't refute that, so why are you pretending to do so again here?

corner of hells · 22-10-2018 11:36pm

Pretzill wrote: »

I don't understand the question - they are almost the same drug? But I would advocate getting rid of methadone as a treatment option. It may work for some as they lower dose incrementally but many drug users merely add methadone on top or search for another fix later.

Methadone is prescribed primarily to stabilize an addict.Its not really a treatment option.

Unfortunately in Ireland we tend to do badly at supporting addicts detox off methadone.

Pretzill · 22-10-2018 11:42pm

corner of hells wrote: »

At the moment heroin is illegal so you can't get any support detoxing off it , well there us one place that sets very strict criteria.
Methadone , you can get a supervised medical or therapeutic detox , either residential or in the community .

I'm not going to contradict you here but this means eventhough heroin is illegal you can now go to a centre to shoot up but not to detox?? You see that is madness really, isn't it?

corner of hells · 22-10-2018 11:45pm

Pretzill wrote: »

I'm not going to contradict you here but this means eventhough heroin is illegal you can now go to a centre to shoot up but not to detox?? You see that is madness really, isn't it?

Not really , it's a supervised injection centre , much safer than injecting in a squat or a restaurant toilet on your own.

Pretzill · 22-10-2018 11:47pm

corner of hells wrote: »

Not really , it's a supervised injection centre , much safer than injecting in a squat or a restaurant toilet on your own.

I think you missed the irony of my point. You are also missing the fact that I don't really care how safe it is to inject an illegal substance.

Sofiztikated · 22-10-2018 11:47pm

corner of hells wrote: »

I've worked in drug services for a while and low threshold services with addicts , you are at risk of death from detox from alcohol or benzos and I've seen people going into shock, convulsions, fits but I've never heard of any documetated case of anyone dying from opiate withdrawal.

I know one guy who had an aneurism while in treatment and died.

I suppose you could possibly die during cold turkey from untreated diarrhea and dehydration

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/add.13512

I only know that because I read it a while ago. You're right about the dehydration.

gctest50 · 22-10-2018 11:52pm

Pretzill wrote: »

I'm not going to contradict you here but this means eventhough heroin is illegal you can now go to a centre to shoot up but not to detox?? You see that is madness really, isn't it?

Less of them end up in hospital and that's all that matters

and bonus points, it's cheaper than the methadone scam, they are supplying their own :

https://www.herald.ie/news/3300-heroin-addicts-on-hse-methadone-for-more-than-10-years-at-a-cost-of-20mayear-31068636.html

Sources estimate that running the methadone programme for the last 20 years could cost up to €200m. Currently it is running at almost €20m a year.

reganreggie · 22-10-2018 11:55pm

If nothing else it will reduce the numbers of people overdosing on our streets reduce pressure on emergency services and get users in contact with services.
It's a positive move imo

corner of hells · 22-10-2018 11:55pm

Pretzill wrote: »

I think you missed the irony of my point. You are also missing the fact that I don't really care how safe it is to inject an illegal substance.

No problem.

corner of hells · 22-10-2018 11:55pm

Sofiztikated wrote: »

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/add.13512

I only know that because I read it a while ago. You're right about the dehydration.

That's a good article.

corner of hells · 22-10-2018 11:57pm

gctest50 wrote: »

Less of them end up in hospital and that's all that matters

and bonus points, it's cheaper than the methadone scam, they are supplying their own :

Methadone is minimum 2 grand a year for each addict , thats not adding in doctors prescribing , chemists dispensing etc a lot money .

gctest50 · 23-10-2018 12:09am

corner of hells wrote: »

Methadone is minimum 2 grand a year for each addict , thats not adding in doctors prescribing , chemists dispensing etc a lot money .

The cheapest thing would be a bullet in the head but people get a bit touchy about that carry on

So instead the methadone costs about 20 million euro per year

According to several conservative estimates, every dollar invested in addiction treatment programs yields a return of between $4 and $7 in reduced drug-related crime, criminal justice costs, and theft.
When savings related to healthcare are included, total savings can exceed costs by a ratio of 12 to 1.

forgodssake · 23-10-2018 12:12am

From someone who lost a very very loved person close to me from this disgusting drug I am at ease with this . The drug is vile the effects are vile but the person, the user isn't . Not in every case anyway . I used to be very much black and white about this until I had personal experience of it . Heroin addiction can happen to the strongest best people .

23-10-2018 12:16am

gctest50 wrote: »

The cheapest thing would be a bullet in the head but people get a bit touchy about that carry on

So instead the methadone costs about 20 million euro per year

Yeah that’s how we should deal with our issues as a civilised society :rolleyes:

igCorcaigh · 23-10-2018 12:18am

Next logical step is to provide safely dosed heroin to registered addicts in a supervised environment.

Get people on to the system, address underlying issues, do the criminal gangs out of business and provide a framework to help the people with addiction issues a way forward to an addiction free future.

Common sense if you ask me, but queue the outrage...

corner of hells · 23-10-2018 12:18am

Ryann Tender SportswomanMGS wrote: »

Yeah that’s how we should deal with our issues as a civilised society :rolleyes:

If you listen carefully , you can hear the banjo music out of "Deliverence".

AndrewJRenko · 23-10-2018 7:12am

mad muffin wrote: »

Round them up into boot camps and detox the **** out of them. They’ll be much better for it and happier.

Sure they won’t be happy going in but they will definitely be happy coming out the other side.

Did you look at much research as to what actually works in drug rehabilitation before coming to this conclusion? Or do you prefer to get your opinions from taxi drivers?

Standman · 23-10-2018 8:56am

mad muffin wrote: »

Oh here we go… the bleedin lefties are out in force… :rolleyes:

Round them up into boot camps and detox the **** out of them. They’ll be much better for it and happier.

Sure they won’t be happy going in but they will definitely be happy coming out the other side.

And who's going to pay for that? Are you suggesting John Q. Taxpayer should foot the bill for a glorified hotel?? Bleedin lefties :rolleyes:

23-10-2018 8:56am

We have 30 (thirty) detox beds in the country.
I know people who were denied methadone in prison, so had to go back on heroin inside.
I know people whose doctor refuses to decrease their methadone.

There is no appetite for curing this from the govt.
Give more money to detox beds, and people will be complaining that that money should be going on our waiting list so old people aren't on trolleys in a corridor.
Open supervised injection centres and we have a whole load of NIMBYism going on.

I swear some people are so blind to the problem that they're happy to keep everything the same.

Things must change. Hopefully we adopt the Portuguese policy soon and all that money wasted on the drug problem by the justice dept gets reallocated to the health dept.

I really don't understand how people can't see that addiction is a health issue, not a justice issue.

23-10-2018 11:09am

Deleted User wrote: »

We have 30 (thirty) detox beds in the country.
I know people who were denied methadone in prison, so had to go back on heroin inside.
I know people whose doctor refuses to decrease their methadone.

There is no appetite for curing this from the govt.
Give more money to detox beds, and people will be complaining that that money should be going on our waiting list so old people aren't on trolleys in a corridor.
Open supervised injection centres and we have a whole load of NIMBYism going on.

I swear some people are so blind to the problem that they're happy to keep everything the same.

Things must change. Hopefully we adopt the Portuguese policy soon and all that money wasted on the drug problem by the justice dept gets reallocated to the health dept.

I really don't understand how people can't see that addiction is a health issue, not a justice issue.

The 'war on illegal drugs' is one of the biggest con jobs ever foisted by vested interests on a populace. Take a look at Mexico, the strategy is going fantastically well out there.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 23-10-2018 1:28pm

BoneIdol wrote: »

Yes, because prohibition has gone so well on a world wide basis. We should go for the American hard **** approach where they have no problems with opiates at all, oh wait.

You can keeping banging your head off the same brick wall or do something different.

?

Opiates are legal though. That’s the worst argument you can make to justify full legalisation.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/feb/13/us-drug-companies-accused-cheerleaders-opioids

weldoninhio · 23-10-2018 1:41pm

Dream Many Rover wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

By letting junkies buy off them safe in the knowledge that they can go to a shooting up clinic to take it??

Cienciano · 23-10-2018 1:41pm

mad muffin wrote: »

Oh here we go… the bleedin lefties are out in force… :rolleyes:

Round them up into boot camps and detox the **** out of them. They’ll be much better for it and happier.

Sure they won’t be happy going in but they will definitely be happy coming out the other side.

In this make believe world they should simply ban heroin, then the addicts won't be able to get it. End of problem.

reganreggie · 23-10-2018 1:46pm

Boards where smoking cigarettes is the same as a heroin addiction and people think we should take lessons from the Chinese government on human rightsðŸ€”ðŸ€”ðŸ€”

Turner · 23-10-2018 8:45pm

I cannot believe that a state funded service being run and tendered by the HSE is telling drug users that they "must" buy their drugs from the "kinehans" or the "west dublin crime gang known as the family" or any of the easter european drugs gangs, before they come to the drug injection centre.

And i quote "The Operation Plan states: “Clients have to be possession of their own drugs, obtained elsewhere"

Surely the state should supply clean and verified drugs to these people and treat their addiction like an illness. And assist them in transitioning to methadone or whatever else.

Unbelievable!

23-10-2018 8:48pm

Turner wrote: »

I cannot believe that a state funded service being run and tendered by the HSE is telling drug users that they "must" buy their drugs from the "kinehans" or the "west dublin crime gang known as the family" or any of the easter european drugs gangs, before they come to the drug injection centre.

And i quote "The Operation Plan states: “Clients have to be possession of their own drugs, obtained elsewhere"

Surely the state should supply clean and verified drugs to these people and treat their addiction like an illness. And assist them in transitioning to methadone or whatever else.

Unbelievable!

How do you expect that to go down with people?? “The HSE are buying junkies herion now”, come on.

grindle · 23-10-2018 8:58pm

Ryann Tender SportswomanMGS wrote: »

How do you expect that to go down with people?? “The HSE are buying junkies herion now”, come on.

Considering the current truth of the matter is "Government forces very lucrative & under-researched market tax-free into the hands of criminal gangs whilst absorbing all health costs!", how much worse could it be?

Dafuq is this bollox?

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