tail docking

superfear · 09-06-2009 5:20pm #1

I have been in touch with my vet to book an appointment to dock my pups. he has told me that this for him to do is illegal and a very sore subject at the mo. What do i do?

harryR · 09-06-2009 5:23pm

oh dear :mad: why do you want to dock the pups tails...? :mad:

09-06-2009 5:25pm

Unless the pup had an injured tail in need of surgery, you leave it alone.

Why do you want to dock it?

westwicklow · 09-06-2009 5:29pm

What breed is it?

Gordon Gekko · 09-06-2009 5:36pm

superfear wrote: »

I have been in touch with my vet to book an appointment to dock my pups. he has told me that this for him to do is illegal and a very sore subject at the mo. What do i do?

Eh, how about not breaking the law by abusing helpless animals? :mad:

jen_23 · 09-06-2009 5:55pm

Yip I think that has been illegal for some years now OP.
Why would you want to dock them? It would be harder to sell the pups (if that's what your doing) with docked tails as it's also immoral.
Best to leave them wagging their tails

kazza90210 · 09-06-2009 6:03pm

Its not illegal, but is not encouraged by the veterinary council and vets can face disaplincery action if they perform dockings.

fionav3 · 09-06-2009 6:06pm

Nicely put, Jen23, why would anyone want to dock a dog's lovely wagging tail?

There is no medical requirement for it and it's something done purely to 'improve' the dog asthetically (but who are we to change what nature gave to dogs?).

Look on the bright side Superfear, at least you know you have a good vet. There are some immoral vets out there who will dog a dogs tail, no questions asked, but a vet who genuinely cares about an animal's welfare won't do this.

EastTyrone · 09-06-2009 6:11pm

if it is a working dog the tail should be docked or else it will suffer unneccessary pain, how ever since you have this in the pets section i take it that the pups will not be working so no need 2!

Gordon Gekko · 09-06-2009 7:12pm

EastTyrone wrote: »

if it is a working dog the tail should be docked or else it will suffer unneccessary pain, how ever since you have this in the pets section i take it that the pups will not be working so no need 2!

Please explain.

cloudy day · 09-06-2009 7:19pm

Gordon Gekko wrote: »

Eh, how about not breaking the law by abusing helpless animals? :mad:

It's not illegal in Ireland. Most vets won't do it on grounds of morality, "mutilation for aesthetic reasons" is what they call it.

fatmammycat · 09-06-2009 7:20pm

Ridiculous, hunters work with Labs, setters, fox hounds, various breeds of flushing dogs without having to slice the animal's tail off. Complete outdated nonsense. I've seen labs swim through ice- cutting themselves to ribbons in the process- after duck and no one suggests slicing pieces off their chests. I've seen fox hounds covered in muck and blood and cuts and scrapes and no one offers to take a piece off their ears or any other part of their body. Complete poo. There is no genuine reason to lop pieces off a healthy dog except to gain a certain 'look'.

EastTyrone · 09-06-2009 7:22pm

Gordon Gekko wrote: »

Please explain.

well, take the english springer spaniel for instance, it is a very hard working dog, it will go into thorn bushes etc to flush pheasants, if it has a full tail, the tail gets caught causing the dog pain, the dog then gets it very badly cut causing more pain. As it is in the field it will get dirt into it causing infection YET more pain, then gang green comes into it and MORE pain, if you get me?

cloudy day · 09-06-2009 7:22pm

This discussion has been up before.

I will say this, I was talking to a man recently about his boxer, very hyper, and she is forever bashing it off stuff in the house and busting up her tail.

What breed is your dog.

fatmammycat · 09-06-2009 7:28pm

Lots of dogs are hyper and bash their tails, so what, you don't just cut them off. My father's collies were nuts and used to sweep cups and god knows what else off coffee tables, but he didn't get out the lamb rings to sort it out.
Retrievers are flushing dogs and have full tails, a lot of gun and field dogs have full tails. Docking is completely for look.

EastTyrone · 09-06-2009 7:28pm

cloudy day wrote: »

This discussion has been up before.

I will say this, I was talking to a man recently about his boxer, very hyper, and she is forever bashing it off stuff in the house and busting up her tail.

What breed is your dog.

I do not have a dog, but I have seen this with friends dogs and throught the shooting press, is your friends dog docked?

cloudy day · 09-06-2009 7:36pm

fatmammycat wrote: »

Lots of dogs are hyper and bash their tails, so what, you don't just cut them off. My father's collies were nuts and used to sweep cups and god knows what else off coffee tables, but he didn't get out the lamb rings to sort it out.
Retrievers are flushing dogs and have full tails, a lot of gun and field dogs have full tails. Docking is completely for look.

They are differant breeds of dogs with differant structures.

cloudy day · 09-06-2009 7:37pm

EastTyrone wrote: »

I do not have a dog, but I have seen this with friends dogs and throught the shooting press, is your friends dog docked?

Hi Etyrone

No his dog's tail was not docked and as with some of the field breeds it seems Boxers are suceptible to injury. when you say you have seen this, do you mean injuries also.

fatmammycat · 09-06-2009 7:39pm

They have spines and tails same as any other dog.

cloudy day · 09-06-2009 7:39pm

fatmammycat wrote: »

Lots of dogs are hyper and bash their tails, so what, you don't just cut them off. My father's collies were nuts and used to sweep cups and god knows what else off coffee tables, but he didn't get out the lamb rings to sort it out.
Retrievers are flushing dogs and have full tails, a lot of gun and field dogs have full tails. Docking is completely for look.

I would never advocate cutting off an adult dogs tail for any other reason than surgical necessity. However, I bet he get's out the rings for the lambs tails.

fatmammycat · 09-06-2009 7:47pm

He's dead, and never bred sheep, so no, he wouldn't. Your argument for structure falls apart the moment you compare say a vizla to a weimaramer or a german pointer, their structure is almost exact to a boxer with a tail, but only some of these dogs are docked. Dobermans have excellent tails ( and ears), but usually docked, rottys too and jack russells, no need for any of them to be sans tail but because people are after a breed 'look' they are willing to over look their actual actions. It's a cruel practice and as I've already said outdated. I'm not going to continue saying the same thing, I've said what I had to say on the subject.

EastTyrone · 09-06-2009 7:49pm

It is not cruel when it is done when the pup is a day old, it is not cruel when it ios actually saving the dog from unnecessarry pain.

cloudy day · 09-06-2009 7:50pm

fatmammycat wrote: »

They have spines and tails same as any other dog.

So do lambs and pigs but farmers do it, I don't see anyone getting anti about lambs and pigs having it done. Or batt hens having their beaks chopped and living in crates.

Plus vets don't mind do Caslick's on mares.

cloudy day · 09-06-2009 7:50pm

fatmammycat wrote: »

He's dead, and never bred sheep, so no, he wouldn't. Your argument for structure falls apart the moment you compare say a vizla to a weimaramer or a german pointer, their structure is almost exact to a boxer with a tail, but only some of these dogs are docked. Dobermans have excellent tails ( an ears), but usually docked, rotty's too and jack russells, no need for any of them to be sans tail but because people are after a breed 'look' they are willing to over look their actual actions. It's a cruel practice and as I've already said outdated. I'm not going to continue saying the same thing, I've said what I had to say on the subject.

It's not an argument, it's a discussion.

cloudy day · 09-06-2009 7:52pm

fatmammycat wrote: »

He's dead, and never bred sheep, so no, he wouldn't. Your argument for structure falls apart the moment you compare say a vizla to a weimaramer or a german pointer, their structure is almost exact to a boxer with a tail, but only some of these dogs are docked. Dobermans have excellent tails ( an ears), but usually docked, rotty's too and jack russells, no need for any of them to be sans tail but because people are after a breed 'look' they are willing to over look their actual actions. It's a cruel practice and as I've already said outdated. I'm not going to continue saying the same thing, I've said what I had to say on the subject.

Sorry but they are nothing like boxers and have very diff temperaments as far as I can see.

cloudy day · 09-06-2009 7:52pm

EastTyrone wrote: »

It is not cruel when it is done when the pup is a day old, it is not cruel when it ios actually saving the dog from unnecessarry pain.

Agreed.

fatmammycat · 09-06-2009 7:54pm

EastTyrone wrote: »

It is not cruel when it is done when the pup is a day old, it is not cruel when it ios actually saving the dog from unnecessarry pain.

Oh right, because puppies don't feel pain?? Are you for real? You'll cause actual pain to prevent 'possible' pain? Do you really think flushing dogs don't get other cuts and tears? Have you ever been out on a hunt?

Cloudy Day, no one was discussing other animals. Don't move the goalposts, we were talking about dogs.

fatmammycat · 09-06-2009 7:55pm

cloudy day wrote: »

Sorry but they are nothing like boxers and have very diff temperaments as far as I can see.

If you're talking about bodily structure-as you were, they are very alike. Why chop the Weimaraner but not the visla? They're almost identical. Can you give a good solid reason for a doberman or rotty to be without a tail if not for a look?

westwicklow · 09-06-2009 7:59pm

fatmammycat wrote: »

...father's collies were nuts and used to sweep cups and god knows what else off coffee tables...

Collies and coffee tables..... that's an unusual combination

cloudy day · 09-06-2009 8:00pm

fatmammycat wrote: »

Oh right, because puppies don't feel pain?? Are you for real? You'll cause actual pain to prevent 'possible' pain? Do you really think flushing dogs don't get other cuts and tears? Have you ever been out on a hunt?

Cloudy Day, no one was discussing other animals. Don't move the goalposts, we were talking about dogs.

Don't other animals count then. I wouldn't want to be accuses of having double standards you see.

So have you been out on a hunt then, after the fox with hounds?

I bet if you do a poll on terrier men that have docked prob hundreds of litters in their life they will no doubt say they have not witnessed a reaction from any of the pups that constitutes severe pain and suffering.

However, I have witnessed a pain reaction in pups being vaccinated occasionally, so should I not get him the injection incase I cause him pain.

Some people like certain breeds of dogs docked, it's not illegal. And for every person who argues against it there is a counter argument for it. However I do not feel anybody has the right to harrass or subjucate a person for having differing views and opinions on a subject when they are not breaking the law.

fatmammycat · 09-06-2009 8:01pm

It was, and as bad as that was the labrador and the coffee table was even worse. Tails like rudders those dogs have.

fatmammycat · 09-06-2009 8:04pm

Again CD you're trying to move the goal posts. Do you have an answer to the question I asked you? Do you have a solid reason as to why a rotty or a doberman should have their tail docked other than to achieve a certain look? I'm not trying to get at you, I'm genuinely curious.

cloudy day · 09-06-2009 8:05pm

Not moving the goal posts at all. It your debate is based on welfare grounds then all animals are equal and there should not be double standards with the vets.

fatmammycat · 09-06-2009 8:06pm

My debate wasn't on welfare grounds, it was on grounds of cruelty. So do you have an answer or not?

cloudy day · 09-06-2009 8:09pm

superfear wrote: »

I have been in touch with my vet to book an appointment to dock my pups. he has told me that this for him to do is illegal and a very sore subject at the mo. What do i do?

Try posting in shooting forum. the guys there may be able to best advise you.

cloudy day · 09-06-2009 8:13pm

fatmammycat wrote: »

Again CD you're trying to move the goal posts. Do you have an answer to the question I asked you? Do you have a solid reason as to why a rotty or a doberman should have their tail docked other than to achieve a certain look? I'm not trying to get at you, I'm genuinely curious.

I didn't mention rotties or dobes. I don't have a problem with docking, you do. So take your argument elsewhere as this has thoroughly been debated before and I'm not going into it all over again.

Superfear posted looking for assistance.

if you take up the cross of not docking pups on the ground of cruelty, which I believe comes under welfare then in my opinion the vets should not take the moral high ground and have different standards. that is my bone of contention, with vets.

I like certain breeds docked. It's not illegal so why don't you leave the guy alone.

End of my conversation with you on said subject.

fatmammycat · 09-06-2009 8:42pm

My initial reply was to East Tyrone not to the OP and my personal views on docking I can pretty much back up with examples and common sense. That you 'like' certain breeds docked has no bearing on the debate at all. You couldn't answer my question as I suspected you couldn't because you appear to be afraid to relinquish outdated and frankly ridiculous practices performed by many misguided people, the chopping of pieces from perfectly healthy dogs for spurious reasons- and banned in increasing numbers of countries with more foreward thinking with regard to dog welfare.
You've said your piece, I've said mine, never the twain shall meet.

*Lees* · 09-06-2009 9:35pm

cloudy day wrote: »

men that have docked prob hundreds of litters in their life they will no doubt say they have not witnessed a reaction from any of the pups that constitutes severe pain and suffering.

I have witnessed a pain reaction in pups being vaccinated occasionally, so should I not get him the injection incase I cause him pain.

Probably the worst argument I have ever heard!!!
How can you compare a vacination to prevent illness to removing a perfectly healthy body part for a "look"!!?? :rolleyes: It's disgusting!!
It's not illegal because this country is backwards when it comes to animal welfare, the fact it's illegal in so many other countries prooves that!!

Taking off a dogs tail because you like "the look" :rolleyes::rolleyes: makes me sick!!

tom123456 · 10-06-2009 12:25am

fatmammycat wrote: »

My initial reply was to East Tyrone not to the OP and my personal views on docking I can pretty much back up with examples and common sense. That you 'like' certain breeds docked has no bearing on the debate at all. You couldn't answer my question as I suspected you couldn't because you appear to be afraid to relinquish outdated and frankly ridiculous practices performed by many misguided people, the chopping of pieces from perfectly healthy dogs for spurious reasons- and banned in increasing numbers of countries with more foreward thinking with regard to dog welfare.
You've said your piece, I've said mine, never the twain shall meet.

No, simply as I've stated this discussion was already done at length in a rather amicable fashion. I;m not interested into getting into any arguments with someone over a differnce of opinion.

eddie12 · 10-06-2009 12:55am

I often wondered why certain breeds of dogs have their tails docked (boxers, rottweilers, Dobermans. etc). Is that genuinely only for aesthetic reasons?
From my own experience springers and terriers work far heavier cover than pointers, setters, labs and retrievers. I feel that they should have their tails docked if they are working dogs but fail to see the point if they are destined to be pets.

LovelyTom · 10-06-2009 1:38am

I've recently got a Standard Schnauzer and when I went to pick my pup I saw that they all had their tales docked, I genuinely had doubts whether or not to buy a pup from the breeder.

I see absolutely no point in tail docking. There aren't even excuses for certain breeds, like the schnauzer, rotties,dobes etc.
I can sort of understand why a hard working field or hunting dog may have it's tail removed, but surely not ever springer spaniel or jack russel terrier is going to be used for hunting and has to go through the procedure anyway.

In my opinion dogs are naturally made to hunt so why would nature dictate that they have tails if they're a hindrence?

Magenta · 10-06-2009 4:42am

fatmammycat wrote: »

He's dead, and never bred sheep, so no, he wouldn't. Your argument for structure falls apart the moment you compare say a vizla to a weimaramer or a german pointer, their structure is almost exact to a boxer with a tail, but only some of these dogs are docked. Dobermans have excellent tails ( an ears), but usually docked, rotty's too and jack russells, no need for any of them to be sans tail but because people are after a breed 'look' they are willing to over look their actual actions. It's a cruel practice and as I've already said outdated. I'm not going to continue saying the same thing, I've said what I had to say on the subject.

Exactly.

Look at the tail of a Dalmatian, a Whippet, a greyhound... It's thin, like a Boxer's or a Dobermann's. So why is the Boxer & Dobermann docked and the rest aren't?

Same with Rottweilers. They have a thicker tail like a Labrador's. Why is a Rottweiler docked and a Labrador isn't?

cloudy day · 10-06-2009 9:19am

Magenta wrote: »

Exactly.

Look at the tail of a Dalmatian, a Whippet, a greyhound... It's thin, like a Boxer's or a Dobermann's. So why is the Boxer & Dobermann docked and the rest aren't?

Same with Rottweilers. They have a thicker tail like a Labrador's. Why is a Rottweiler docked and a Labrador isn't?

I guess it's just one of those things Magenta that come with the origins of the breed. I don't know about the other breeds only that apparently with the greyhound I've heard the tail acts as a kind of stabiliser. Also Greyhounds are more sedate than boxers. Dobe's don't seem to be as bouncy either.

The labs tail is thicker set than a Rottie's and it works as a rudder in the water. I guess also Labs were traditionally more an outside dog where boxer's as far as I can see lived in the house. Although the boxer is totally diff to the originaters of the breed. I suppose it's down to personal choice as to whether or not people think they look better for long tails.

The same with Jack russels.

Corb · 10-06-2009 12:10pm

cloudy day wrote: »

I guess it's just one of those things Magenta that come with the origins of the breed. I don't know about the other breeds only that apparently with the greyhound I've heard the tail acts as a kind of stabiliser. Also Greyhounds are more sedate than boxers. Dobe's don't seem to be as bouncy either.

The labs tail is thicker set than a Rottie's and it works as a rudder in the water. I guess also Labs were traditionally more an outside dog where boxer's as far as I can see lived in the house. Although the boxer is totally diff to the originaters of the breed. I suppose it's down to personal choice as to whether or not people think they look better for long tails.

The same with Jack russels.

Yeah I never see Jack russels without their tail docked. Think I've only ever seen one! It looked odd but only because we're used to them having short tails. It doesn't look like it's going to die out soon in that breed unfortunately either. I hate it

kildara · 10-06-2009 12:11pm

cloudy day wrote: »

The labs tail is thicker set than a Rottie's and it works as a rudder in the water.

I would disagree with you there. Our rottweiler pup has her tail - which I can only describe as being similar to an otter's tail. I think a rottweiler's (or our's anyway) tail is just as thick (if not thicker) than that of a lab.

cloudy day wrote: »

I suppose it's down to personal choice as to whether or not people think they look better for long tails.

That is correct, it is a personal choice whether you think it looks better with or without a tail; but alot of anti-docking people here (myself included) do not think that an animal should be docked purely for aesthetic reasons.

fatmammycat · 10-06-2009 1:44pm

kildara wrote: »

I would disagree with you there. Our rottweiler pup has her tail - which I can only describe as being similar to an otter's tail. I think a rottweiler's (or our's anyway) tail is just as thick (if not thicker) than that of a lab.

That is correct, it is a personal choice whether you think it looks better with or without a tail; but alot of anti-docking people here (myself included) do not think that an animal should be docked purely for aesthetic reasons.

There's an interesting website here Kildara, http://www.vetsagainstdocking.co.uk/VAD-home-page.html where you can read the opinions of vets and VNs about the practice. I'm delighted it's banned in the UK and looking forward to a day when it's no longer practiced in this country.

Ruby Soho · 10-06-2009 2:28pm

"Also Greyhounds are more sedate than boxers".

That's true to a certain extent, although I've seen my two crack their tails off walls, windows, radiators with such force I don't know how they've not injured themselves (or broken the window). The male greyhound in particular has an enormously long, whip-like skinny tail, probably about a foot and a half in length, but despite his boisterousness, he's never injured it once.
I do see tail injuries in my practice from time to time, I've seen them in collies, labs etc. There's no trend for seeing them in dogs that are normally docked, its not THAT common, and I do live / work in an area that has a lot of hunting and gundogs.
I have, however seen many docked boxers, rotties etc coming in with problems as a direct result of the docking procedure itself, they're usually docked too short, or the tail vertebrae are exposed due to incorrect docking.
I had a charming man in recently complaining that his puppies tails were still bleeding from where he docked them with a scissors the night before. The pups were EIGHT WEEKS OLD. What an idiot.
I can't wait for the day that docking is banned, to be honest most of the arguments for docking are very very poor and unconvincing to me, and I work in the industry. It is, as my vet says, 'an unnecessary and cruel act of mutilation for the sake of aesthetics', there's no need for it in modern day society at all.

lorna100 · 10-06-2009 2:28pm

OP - while I am against docking 100%, if you insist on it, PLEASE find a vet that will do it, rather than doing it yourself. PLEASE.

Ruby Soho · 10-06-2009 2:32pm

There are very very few vets in the country who will do it at all. Maybe some down the country but I'd be very surprised if you found one near Dublin or other urban areas anyway. And rightly so

eddie12 · 10-06-2009 2:50pm

I've been window shopping on www.donedeal.ie lately although I'll more than likely adopt a dog from Remi and Helena up in ASH as it'll only be a pet(hardly ever shoot nowadays).
However, I did notice that practically all the traditionally "docked breeds" of animals for sale on the website are docked(boxers,rotties, jack russels etc).
Ruby, you mentioned that most vets wont dock anymore. Does this mean that most people are doing it themselves? It's a frightening thought
Also, you mentioned that you rarely see a dog with an injured tail. Have you came accross a working springer with an undocked tail and if so, are they working away without getting their tails caught in wire etc?

Ruby Soho · 10-06-2009 3:19pm

Unfortunately, that's exactly what it means, lots of people use the rubber ring method, which is marginally more humane than just chopping the thing off, but its still not acceptable. There probably are vets that still do it, but I've certainly never come across them. So, where else are they being docked but at home?
Most of the springers are docked, but there are a few that aren't, and I've never had any problems with them. We see them with injuries to ears, nails, dewclaws pretty frequently, but funnily enough, not tails. To be honest, the vast majority of springers in the country are only pets, so if the working dogs can get away with it, the pets certainly can! I'm not saying that no working dog should ever be docked, but for the pet boxers, jack russells, dobies and rotties etc, its TOTALLY unnecessary. The worst tail injury I've ever seen by far was in a collie. That doesn't make it appropriate to dock all collies tails because one had an injury though!

tail docking

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