Covid 19 PUP - Self-Employed only

ATC110 · 14-07-2020 10:30am #1

Has anyone received a decision on their appeal against the weekly PUP rate reduction?

I received a secure email on 2nd July through MyWelfare stating the payment was being reduced with an appeals address of:

COVID 19 Unemployment Payments
PO Box 12896
Dublin 1

I appealed in writing on 2nd July by registered post but have yet to receive a reply.

I see on Money Guide Ireland there is an email option to PUPRerate@welfare.ie OR write to: PUP Rerate Requests, DEASP, Intreo Centre, Cork Road, Waterford.

Does anyone know if the Dublin PO Box address is valid?

My 2018 income was above the €200 PW threshold but the DEASP has taken my income net of capital allowances which brought it below the threshold.

I have appealed pointing out the overheads the capital allowances are based on still have to be paid for whether I'm earning or not and need to be retained if there is any hope of my reestablishing a viable business.

Snow_White1987 · 14-07-2020 11:04am

ATC110 wrote: »

Has anyone received a decision on their appeal against the weekly PUP rate reduction?

I received a secure email on 2nd July through MyWelfare stating the payment was being reduced with an appeals address of:

COVID 19 Unemployment Payments
PO Box 12896
Dublin 1

I appealed in writing on 2nd July by registered post but have yet to receive a reply.

I see on Money Guide Ireland there is an email option to PUPRerate@welfare.ie OR write to: PUP Rerate Requests, DEASP, Intreo Centre, Cork Road, Waterford.

Does anyone know if the Dublin PO Box address is valid?

My 2018 income was above the €200 PW threshold but the DEASP has taken my income net of capital allowances which brought it below the threshold.

I have appealed pointing out the overheads the capital allowances are based on still have to be paid for whether I'm earning or not and need to be retained if there is any hope of my reestablishing a viable business.

Nothing from my side yet either.

My situation is slightly different in that I only became self-employed in January 2019.

I worked full time as an employee in 2018 (earning over €199 per week) so assumed mine had been cut as I hadn’t paid any self-employment tax for that year.

But, as I pointed out, how could I have paid self-employment tax for 2018 if I only became self-employed the following year? I couldn’t have and therefore I explained this and felt I shouldn’t be discriminated against on that basis.

The Covid helpline agreed and said I should appeal as every case would be looked at individually so I sent in my P21/Statement of Liability for 2018 as proof of earnings to the requested email.

This was last Monday and still not a peep back!

HereinBray · 14-07-2020 11:16am

My original issue - posted on the other thread

Hi there,

Anyone had a similar issue?

I applied for the COVID PUP at the end of June as a self employed individual. I was denied as they didn't have evidence of PRSI payments. I forwarded on proof on monday - but haven't heard anything back.

Would anyone have a phone number I could try? I don't want to go past July 13th as that seems to be a date mentioned on the radio etc.

Thanks very much

HIB

Today's update:

I rang the 1890 number this morning and there seems to be some confusion around self employed people and being employees of their own company.
They can see that my PRSI contributions are up to date so I would qualify for the payment. They are escalating the issue and hopefully I'll get payment shortly.
This was Athlone btw. They also said to contact my Community Welfare Officer for payment in the meantime.

Cross those fingers!

HIB

Snow_White1987 · 14-07-2020 11:21am

HereinBray wrote: »

My original issue - posted on the other thread

Hi there,

Anyone had a similar issue?

I applied for the COVID PUP at the end of June as a self employed individual. I was denied as they didn't have evidence of PRSI payments. I forwarded on proof on monday - but haven't heard anything back.

Would anyone have a phone number I could try? I don't want to go past July 13th as that seems to be a date mentioned on the radio etc.

Thanks very much

HIB

Today's update:

I rang the 1890 number this morning and there seems to be some confusion around self employed people and being employees of their own company.
They can see that my PRSI contributions are up to date so I would qualify for the payment. They are escalating the issue and hopefully I'll get payment shortly.
This was Athlone btw. They also said to contact my Community Welfare Officer for payment in the meantime.

Cross those fingers!

HIB

That’s great you heard something back! Fingers crossed for you (and make sure you get it backdated when the time comes as you were entitled to it originally!).

I spoke to a lovely woman on the helpline today who said they’d been fielding calls all morning from the self-employed - she did say she’d call me back to try and see when I could even roughly expect a response so I’ll wait to see what she comes back with.

14-07-2020 11:20pm

ATC110 wrote: »

Has anyone received a decision on their appeal against the weekly PUP rate reduction?

I received a secure email on 2nd July through MyWelfare stating the payment was being reduced with an appeals address of:

COVID 19 Unemployment Payments
PO Box 12896
Dublin 1

I appealed in writing on 2nd July by registered post but have yet to receive a reply.

I see on Money Guide Ireland there is an email option to PUPRerate@welfare.ie OR write to: PUP Rerate Requests, DEASP, Intreo Centre, Cork Road, Waterford.

Does anyone know if the Dublin PO Box address is valid?

My 2018 income was above the €200 PW threshold but the DEASP has taken my income net of capital allowances which brought it below the threshold.

I have appealed pointing out the overheads the capital allowances are based on still have to be paid for whether I'm earning or not and need to be retained if there is any hope of my reestablishing a viable business.

Genuinely odd, I never got a thing on the MyWelfare account, I'm curious why they have taken a different approach to us. Smart move sending in a registered letter by the way.

WAW · 16-07-2020 1:32am

Have any self employed sole traders still trading received the PUP??
I had enquired on the other thread on behalf of my husband who was told back in April he wasn't entitled to PUP. He's always been self employed on a sole trader basis, had his work and earnings dramatically reduced due to Covid but continued to work albeit considerably less.
His tax affairs are in order.
A poster replied with all the links to gov.ie. showing eligibility for self employed who are still trading but whose earnings are considerably reduced.
But he was told again this week that he is not entitled to PUP. He can only apply for JSA. We would not get this as it is means tested.

I really don't understand how this works. It clearly states on gov.ie that self employed still trading reduced earnings can apply but then I don't know anyone who seems to be entitled?
Also, how is it remotely acceptable in the context of employment supports for other citizens for the Government to treat self employed sole traders in this way when their incomes have been decimated and they are hanging on to whatever business they can retain?

I know people who are getting the PUP and their employee spouses who stopped taking a salaries from their company ( not sole traders) but they are still trading just not drawing a salary.

WAW · 16-07-2020 1:34am

I had enquired on the other thread on behalf of my husband who was told back in April he wasn't entitled to PUP. He's always been self employed on a sole trader basis, had his work and earnings dramatically reduced due to Covid but continued to work albeit considerably less.
His tax affairs are in order.
A poster replied with all the links to gov.ie. showing eligibility for self employed who are still trading but whose earnings are considerably reduced.
But he was told again this week that he is not entitled to PUP. He can only apply

Snow_White1987 · 16-07-2020 11:10am

WAW wrote: »

Have any self employed sole traders still trading received the PUP??
I had enquired on the other thread on behalf of my husband who was told back in April he wasn't entitled to PUP. He's always been self employed on a sole trader basis, had his work and earnings dramatically reduced due to Covid but continued to work albeit considerably less.
His tax affairs are in order.
A poster replied with all the links to gov.ie. showing eligibility for self employed who are still trading but whose earnings are considerably reduced.
But he was told again this week that he is not entitled to PUP. He can only apply for JSA. We would not get this as it is means tested.

I really don't understand how this works. It clearly states on gov.ie that self employed still trading reduced earnings can apply but then I don't know anyone who seems to be entitled?
Also, how is it remotely acceptable in the context of employment supports for other citizens for the Government to treat self employed sole traders in this way when their incomes have been decimated and they are hanging on to whatever business they can retain?

I know people who are getting the PUP and their employee spouses who stopped taking a salaries from their company ( not sole traders) but they are still trading just not drawing a salary.

Was he told that over the phone via the PUP Covid helpline?

Depending on who you get, those on the helpline always tell you something different when it comes to the self-employed.

I've always gone by the instructions on the gov.ie website – and was told to do this multiple times.

I'd tell him to apply for the payment online anyhow. For the self-employed, there's a box where you can give more details about your situation and let them access on that basis.

From March/April, it's always been written on the website that you can apply for PUP as a sole trader if your earnings have been significantly reduced – and it's still up there now, so that's what I'd follow tbh. It's all there in writing if they were to ever come back on it.

Those helplines are terrible, they seem to only know what to tell you if you tick a certain set of boxes.

HereinBray · 16-07-2020 2:41pm

Looks like I spoke/typed too soon earlier on in the week.

Still nothing on my COVID payment. I emailed the PUPRerate@welfare.ie address to see if there was any update - for the first time I received an auto reply email stating that they were dealing with a huge amount of emails and would respond in due course.

Anyone else had any luck? Coming up on three weeks now at this stage.

Thanks a mill

HIB

splinter65 · 16-07-2020 2:46pm

HereinBray wrote: »

Looks like I spoke/typed too soon earlier on in the week.

Still nothing on my COVID payment. I emailed the PUPRerate@welfare.ie address to see if there was any update - for the first time I received an auto reply email stating that they were dealing with a huge amount of emails and would respond in due course.

Anyone else had any luck? Coming up on three weeks now at this stage.

Thanks a mill

HIB

Hi
If you have no income at all and very little savings you can go to the CWO in the meantime to get a SWA to keep you going until it’s sorted out.

Snow_White1987 · 16-07-2020 3:49pm

HereinBray wrote: »

Looks like I spoke/typed too soon earlier on in the week.

Still nothing on my COVID payment. I emailed the PUPRerate@welfare.ie address to see if there was any update - for the first time I received an auto reply email stating that they were dealing with a huge amount of emails and would respond in due course.

Anyone else had any luck? Coming up on three weeks now at this stage.

Thanks a mill

HIB

I sent another email but no atomatic reply – coming up two weeks for me with nothing back yet!

ATC110 · 16-07-2020 4:07pm

I sent a written appeal by registered post on 2nd July and no reply.

I sent an email to the rerate address and got an automated reply

Snow_White1987 · 16-07-2020 4:15pm

ATC110 wrote: »

I sent a written appeal by registered post on 2nd July and no reply.

I sent an email to the rerate address and got an automated reply

Weird, I sent a follow up email to the rerate address an half hour ago and go no automated reply...

Have sent a few emails at this stage!

HereinBray · 17-07-2020 6:39pm

Tried the CWO today and I have too much savings to qualify. They're going to send me out a form to apply anyway.

Still no response from Welfare either. You wouldn't want to be in desperate need.....

HIB

Snow_White1987 · 17-07-2020 10:30pm

A friend of mine (self-employed) got an email late this afternoon saying she wasn’t eligible for the higher rate - she’s the first person I know to get a reply and we both emailed around the same time originally. Hopefully that means we’ll hear something soon!

HereinBray · 19-07-2020 6:20pm

Hi there,

I messaged Conor Pope on Twitter to see if he had heard of any issues with the welfare payments to self employed. Worth a shot!

Will keep you posted.

HIB

theglobe · 20-07-2020 12:34pm

The Department does not have any recent record of PRSI contributions paid by you at the following Classes: A/E/H/P/S. If you believe this to be incorrect, please submit documentary proof. Please note that for 2018 class K contributions were recorded on your record.

I was told this today. I'm a bit confused, but my income is from abroad so maybe that's why I'm not eligible.

theglobe · 20-07-2020 12:43pm

Dempo1 wrote: »

Just curious, why would you assume income from abroad would be considered?

I pay taxes on it here and live in Ireland.

Dempo1 · 20-07-2020 12:49pm

theglobe wrote: »

I pass taxes on it here and live in Ireland.

A I see, I only wondered as I assumed self employed returns/PRSI contributions for the purposes of PUP would be based on Irish tax contributions, not returns, income from outside the state.

At least you got a response albeit not what you hoped for, sorry to hear this

20-07-2020 2:09pm

Snow_White1987 wrote: »

A friend of mine (self-employed) got an email late this afternoon saying she wasn’t eligible for the higher rate - she’s the first person I know to get a reply and we both emailed around the same time originally. Hopefully that means we’ll hear something soon!

When did you send the email?

splinter65 · 20-07-2020 2:28pm

theglobe wrote: »

The Department does not have any recent record of PRSI contributions paid by you at the following Classes: A/E/H/P/S. If you believe this to be incorrect, please submit documentary proof. Please note that for 2018 class K contributions were recorded on your record.

I was told this today. I'm a bit confused, but my income is from abroad so maybe that's why I'm not eligible.

Your entitlement to benefits here in Ireland is based on PRSI contributions made here in relevant tax years and has no connection to the tax you pay here.

theglobe · 20-07-2020 2:55pm

splinter65 wrote: »

Your entitlement to benefits here in Ireland is based on PRSI contributions made here in relevant tax years and has no connection to the tax you pay here.

Fair enough. I just didn't think they were basing it on PRSI contributions, that was probably naive. I just thought it was based on income.

splinter65 · 20-07-2020 3:05pm

theglobe wrote: »

Fair enough. I just didn't think they were basing it on PRSI contributions, that was probably naive. I just thought it was based on income.

Allowances are based on income. JSA, SWA, Disability Allowance Carers Allowance Working Family Payment, they are all payments you can apply for if you don’t have enough PRSI and depending on your circumstances and depending on your income (“means tested”).

Snow_White1987 · 20-07-2020 3:10pm

Yes, quite a few are receiving replies at least but anyone I know has been told no - still no reply my side but maybe those eligible will follow...

theglobe · 20-07-2020 6:42pm

splinter65 wrote: »

Allowances are based on income. JSA, SWA, Disability Allowance Carers Allowance Working Family Payment, they are all payments you can apply for if you don’t have enough PRSI and depending on your circumstances and depending on your income (“means tested”).

I'm not taking any income at the moment and I'm still getting 203e through the PUP payment, or have they moved me over to some other type of payment now? Sorry, I'm a bit confused. The SWA looks like it might be suitable for me, but if it's an extremely involved process I may just leave things be.

theglobe · 20-07-2020 6:53pm

Dempo1 wrote: »

Looks like they've reduced your PUP payment based on earning for 2018, there's no other type of payment unless you've applied for JSA/JSB

Yeah, I definitely earned more than 10K but the PRSI stuff seems to have affected things for me...

torrevieja · 21-07-2020 2:24am

Just to be certain there accessing this Covid Payment on 2018 figures
I'm Self employed and My problem is for that year I had much bigger expenses this year compared to the last 5 years. even 2019 ,

So this particular year I had to get a new engine for my van etc ,

My expenses were high
Even though I earned 26,000, which brought this net earnings under 10, 000,
Is this worth appealing the Covid payment drop under these circumstances as I had to get this done and I paid my vat tax etc

Thanks in advance

21-07-2020 1:24pm

torrevieja wrote: »

Just to be certain there accessing this Covid Payment on 2018 figures
I'm Self employed and My problem is for that year I had much bigger expenses this year compared to the last 5 years. even 2019 ,

So this particular year I had to get a new engine for my van etc ,

My expenses were high
Even though I earned 26,000, which brought this net earnings under 10, 000,
Is this worth appealing the Covid payment drop under these circumstances as I had to get this done and I paid my vat tax etc

Thanks in advance

I would appeal just for the sake of it, you never know someone may make a mistake and it falls in your favour. Is it likely to succeed, probably not. The data is supplied by Revenue and the rule is crystal clear, below €10,556 for the year is €203 and equal to or above €10,556 is €350.

21-07-2020 2:59pm

Anyone hear anything back yet?

Snow_White1987 · 21-07-2020 3:12pm

64869923 wrote: »

Anyone hear anything back yet?

Nothing yet from my side - over three weeks later!

A fellow self-employed heard back and the answer was no but I don’t know anyone who’s actually heard back about a successful appeal either.

Lots of no or no reply at all so far it seems...

splinter65 · 21-07-2020 3:18pm

torrevieja wrote: »

Just to be certain there accessing this Covid Payment on 2018 figures
I'm Self employed and My problem is for that year I had much bigger expenses this year compared to the last 5 years. even 2019 ,

So this particular year I had to get a new engine for my van etc ,

My expenses were high
Even though I earned 26,000, which brought this net earnings under 10, 000,
Is this worth appealing the Covid payment drop under these circumstances as I had to get this done and I paid my vat tax etc

Thanks in advance

You were allowed for the van in your expenses for that year which meant that despite earning 26000 you were only taxed on 10000. So you get benefit in respect of the van back then.
You couldn’t get benefit from it again.

stinkbomb · 21-07-2020 8:23pm

Does anyone know how someone would be getting the PUP when they are self employed but did not live or work in Ireland in 2018?

Snow_White1987 · 21-07-2020 8:38pm

stinkbomb wrote: »

Does anyone know how someone would be getting the PUP when they are self employed but did not live or work in Ireland in 2018?

If you didn't live or work in Ireland in 2018 but you do now – that's a bit of a grey area I would think.

As long as you are living in Ireland now, you are eligible to claim the PUP provided you lost work here due to Covid, but if you weren't living here in 2018, at the very least I'd say it would mean your rate would be cut to the €203 as revenue would have no tax records to work off for that year?

I could be wrong, but that's my thinking on it!

22-07-2020 3:05pm

I was on to PUP-Rerate this morning about when it would be sorted, I sent my supporting information on Thursday the 9th. She said they have a massive backlog and didn't know when they would get through it.

Snow_White1987 · 22-07-2020 3:06pm

64869923 wrote: »

I was on to PUP-Rerate this morning about when it would be sorted, I sent my supporting information on Thursday the 9th. She said they have a massive backlog and didn't know when they would get through it.

I sent mine on July 6th.

They say similar every time I ring too...

22-07-2020 3:08pm

Snow_White1987 wrote: »

I sent mine on July 6th.

They say similar every time I ring too...

The worst part is that my 2018 income is above the threshold.

HereinBray · 22-07-2020 3:27pm

I sent mine on the 7th also.

Have emailed a couple of times (including today) and have received one auto response. (None today though)

Being the cynic that I am - I'm wondering if they are using all their resources on people signing off the payment rather than trying to access it. I just wish I could be sure that I will get it or should I apply for Jobseekers.

Rant over!

HIB

Snow_White1987 · 22-07-2020 3:38pm

HereinBray wrote: »

I sent mine on the 7th also.

Have emailed a couple of times (including today) and have received one auto response. (None today though)

Being the cynic that I am - I'm wondering if they are using all their resources on people signing off the payment rather than trying to access it. I just wish I could be sure that I will get it or should I apply for Jobseekers.

Rant over!

HIB

Rant away, it’s an extremely stressful situation!

I imagine they’ll mention the PUP when they announce the July Stimulus package due this week.

Many are wondering if they’ll need to apply for JSA by or before August 10th so the government will need to address it.

22-07-2020 3:43pm

HereinBray wrote: »

I sent mine on the 7th also.

Have emailed a couple of times (including today) and have received one auto response. (None today though)

HIB

I'm surprised you received an automated response, anytime I've emailed them...nothing.

HereinBray wrote: »

I sent mine on the 7th also.

Being the cynic that I am - I'm wondering if they are using all their resources on people signing off the payment rather than trying to access it.

HIB

I would say this is it.

22-07-2020 3:45pm

Snow_White1987 wrote: »

Rant away, it’s an extremely stressful situation!

I imagine they’ll mention the PUP when they announce the July Stimulus package due this week.

Many are wondering if they’ll need to apply for JSA by or before August 10th so the government will need to address it.

Unofficially it's being extended into the spring. I saw it in a better source during the week but this is the fastest I could find without digging.

https://extra.ie/2020/07/19/news/irish-news/government-cut-extended-pandemic-uenemployment-payment

ATC110 · 22-07-2020 6:31pm

64869923 wrote: »

Unofficially it's being extended into the spring. I saw it in a better source during the week but this is the fastest I could find without digging.

https://extra.ie/2020/07/19/news/irish-news/government-cut-extended-pandemic-uenemployment-payment

It was in the Sunday Times-I can't link to the article as it has a paywall
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/covid-19-payments-to-continue-until-next-year-in-3bn-july-stimulus-1011706.html

ATC110 · 22-07-2020 6:33pm

I sent my appeal in the same day I re lived the MyWelfare message notification on 2nd July- the appeal had to be sent a PO Box address, which I duly did by registered post.
I thought it would be dealt with quickly with my appeal being prompt but I have not had a reply yet.

ATC110 · 22-07-2020 6:49pm

Dempo1 wrote: »

It really looks like those declined on appeal have been contacted so it makes me believe (and I could be wrong) that successful appeals are being worked on, namely how do they fix it. I hope this is the case for those still waiting

I like your optimism Dempo1!

I sent a copy of my 2018 Revenue Notice of Assessment in showing my >€10400 income but the DEASP has assessed the income after capital allowances were deducted, which was marginally less than €10400.
I argued the capital allowances are depreciation related, which applies whether the business is generating an income or not.

Snow_White1987 · 23-07-2020 11:32am

ATC110 wrote: »

It was in the Sunday Times-I can't link to the article as it has a paywall
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/covid-19-payments-to-continue-until-next-year-in-3bn-july-stimulus-1011706.html

Interestingly, it doesn't say what happens to those already on the lower-rate – ie, most of the self-employed thanks to the rate mess!

Hope we don't lose out again!

Dempo1 · 23-07-2020 11:42am

Snow_White1987 wrote: »

Interestingly, it doesn't say what happens to those already on the lower-rate – ie, most of the self-employed thanks to the rate mess!

Hope we don't lose out again!

One report saying a reduction to €300 in September, it looks like a gradual reduction to €203 pw by April next. Hope the self employed reduction debacle sorted soon. Full announcements later apparently. I did see grants/loans etc will include self employed

ATC110 · 23-07-2020 11:53am

Snow_White1987 wrote: »

Interestingly, it doesn't say what happens to those already on the lower-rate – ie, most of the self-employed thanks to the rate mess!

Hope we don't lose out again!

The corollary of this seems to be a flat rate of €203 for everyone, which isn't unfair I think.
I still want to get any back payment of the €350 rate in the meantime though!

Dempo1 · 23-07-2020 12:05pm

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0723/1155101-pandemic-unemployment-payment/

Iingrid Miley from RTE normally a good source, just breaking

Added complications, 3 rates to be paid from September

ATC110 · 23-07-2020 12:26pm

Dempo1 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0723/1155101-pandemic-unemployment-payment/

Iingrid Miley from RTE normally a good source, just breaking

Added complications, 3 rates to be paid from September

That seems fair enough

Dempo1 · 23-07-2020 12:27pm

ATC110 wrote: »

That seems fair enough

Agreed

ATC110 · 23-07-2020 12:30pm

I'd prefer if there had've been a blanket reduction to €203 per week in July - it's a generous payment in its own right and much higher than any benefits in the UK.

My issue is being put on a reduced rate despite meeting the income threshold while others remain on the higher rate.

Dempo1 · 23-07-2020 12:39pm

ATC110 wrote: »

I'd prefer if there had've been a blanket reduction to €203 per week in July - it's a generous payment in its own right and much higher than any benefits in the UK.

My issue is being put on a reduced rate despite meeting the income threshold while others remain on the higher rate.

That's were I might disagree, to compare UK benefits with Irelands is like apples and Oranges, the UK system offers far more generous universal credit benefits, housing etc.

€203 is I accept the normal SW rate but let's not forget many are on PUP through no fault of their own, both self employed and directly employed. Many if not all have seen a serious drop in income and I suspect job opportunities are extremely limited and will be for months. Self employment also is extremely challenging as I know companies, individuals etc are very nervous at spending any money outside existing budgets. My own Job is struggling, particularly the business side with companies at a standstill re spending

Covid 19 PUP - Self-Employed only

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