Walkin it like you talk it ....

seannash · 11-12-2008 4:05pm

Neurojazz wrote: »

For some obvious reasons, i can't give contacts out like that , my advice would be to get a manager - they delegate out the various jobs that need doing like PR etc... for the artists.

I do admin pretty much fulltime now and remixes - hardly anytime for writing, but this gets better as the workload gets outsourced.

You can try and hunt via google to find companies that do these services, but rarely cheap - some quotes i've been given very massively.

For artists that i'd sign i'd be paying about 40e for the basic press releases (to radio stations and magazines) - my investment in them pays off later as i'd be taking 10% of their net profit.

As an artist, some of this you can do yourself, but eats time and requires full focused buniess head (well that's me f**cked then

As a general rule, i tend to misread all the posts on the web - i have bad eyes and can hardly read - even misread this op.

now im not really questioning this method more so how does it apply to the guys who are making tracks in there bedrooms and still getting them signed.
in dance music is it really necessary to have a manager(bar for gigs i guess)but everything else like pr is that not handled by the label you sign your tracks with,they promote the track and send out the promos etc.
anyone i know whos doing dance music is doing it this way bar people who are established already,so for the regular producer who releases tracks is it a bit ott?

DamagedTrax · 11-12-2008 4:11pm

seannash wrote: »

now im not really questioning this method more so how does it apply to the guys who are making tracks in there bedrooms and still getting them signed.
in dance music is it really necessary to have a manager(bar for gigs i guess)but everything else like pr is that not handled by the label you sign your tracks with,they promote the track and send out the promos etc.
anyone i know whos doing dance music is doing it this way bar people who are established already,so for the regular producer who releases tracks is it a bit ott?

it all depends on the scene. techno scene for instance has none of the management lark going on (unless you're talking commercial artists - hawtin, leibing etc)

its a very very underground scene and hugely proud of it to boot. generally anyone trying to break in with management behind them will be pretty much shunned (unless they are bringing something amazing to the table).

if you are good you will sell to the hardcore fans (cause they're the only ones buying these days :mad:) and get gigs. its as simple as that really.

other scenes would be totally differant but as a general rule, the more commercial the music the more a management team makes sense.

seannash · 11-12-2008 4:31pm

DamagedTrax wrote: »

it all depends on the scene. techno scene for instance has none of the management lark going on (unless you're talking commercial artists - hawtin, leibing etc)

its a very very underground scene and hugely proud of it to boot. generally anyone trying to break in with management behind them will be pretty much shunned (unless they are bringing something amazing to the table).

if you are good you will sell to the hardcore fans (cause they're the only ones buying these days :mad:) and get gigs. its as simple as that really.

other scenes would be totally differant but as a general rule, the more commercial the music the more a management team makes sense.

no idefinitely agree,i dont think its confined to the techno scene though,bar some commercial remix projects most forms of dance music would be taking that approach i imagine.but i know neurojazz is involved in dance music so i was just kinda thrown by his approach.im not saying its wrong its just an approach that doesnt seem all that common in dance music to be honest.it could work though.
to me its seemed a bit ott b ut maybe he was talking about a band type situation

jimi_t · 11-12-2008 4:32pm

seannash wrote: »

i think thats where most producer make there money these days,its almost essential that you can appear to dj if you make dance music so as to capitlaise on stuff like that.
plus its fun and nice to get paid for that

Fixed that

DamagedTrax · 11-12-2008 4:53pm

seannash wrote: »

no idefinitely agree,i dont think its confined to the techno scene though,bar some commercial remix projects most forms of dance music would be taking that approach i imagine.but i know neurojazz is involved in dance music so i was just kinda thrown by his approach.im not saying its wrong its just an approach that doesnt seem all that common in dance music to be honest.it could work though.
to me its seemed a bit ott b ut maybe he was talking about a band type situation

im not too aware of what type of dance music neurojazz does. but if his stuff is getting played in the likes of tripod its probably the more commercial end of things so his approach may suit that scene.

Neurojazz · 11-12-2008 4:56pm

I'm just giving an overview - but here's an angle i rarely hear talked about on boards.

That situation of a 'bedroom producer' - sure they could get tracks out via a label and never need a manager... but i'd take them and turn them into a live PA and use the both the DJ plays out and them doing gigs to get publicity... back that up with a press campaign and your cooking.

I'm pretty much a 'bedroom producer', i create at home and try to get music out there - it's just years down the line i've stumbled upon different ways of doing things. PR and some form of focus (which bedroom producers may not have) really do catapult things off the ground...

Every musician is unique - so all the manager can do is evaluate each situation for what to do and how to grow things - (i've no intention of doing a half arsed job), and if a musician is looking for a manager then they are usually ready to commit to the busy life ahead.

Another angle i might do is listen to a songwriter and get their music to a publisher for use by another artist - they may never have to gig ever... so many scenarios - depends on the music/capital available

DamagedTrax · 11-12-2008 4:59pm

Neurojazz wrote: »

I'm just giving an overview - but here's an angle i rarely hear talked about on boards.

That situation of a 'bedroom producer' - sure they could get tracks out via a label and never need a manager... but i'd take them and turn them into a live PA and use the both the DJ plays out and them doing gigs to get publicity... back that up with a press campaign and your cooking.

I'm pretty much a 'bedroom producer', i create at home and try to get music out there - it's just years down the line i've stumbled upon different ways of doing things. PR and some form of focus (which bedroom producers may not have) really do catapult things off the ground...

Every musician is unique - so all the manager can do is evaluate each situation for what to do and how to grow things - (i've no intention of doing a half arsed job), and if a musician is looking for a manager then they are usually ready to commit to the busy life ahead.

Another angle i might do is listen to a songwriter and get their music to a publisher for use by another artist - they may never have to gig ever... so many scenarios - depends on the music/capital available

i think its a differant approach in the dance scene and if its working for you (or artists that you represent) then good on you. anything to help new talent can only be a good thing.

seannash · 11-12-2008 5:04pm

DamagedTrax wrote: »

im not too aware of what type of dance music neurojazz does. but if his stuff is getting played in the likes of tripod its probably the more commercial end of things so his approach may suit that scene.

well I know jtsuited is playing tripod these days and he's making some real nice techno/minimal.he's signed to a few nice labels,aciitone being one and they run alot of nights.
I think think techno isn't that underground anymore,its pretty much dominating the beatport charts these days.
even if your making electrohouse(commercial) I dont think a manager is necessary.again I've very little experience but from my small experience and from talking to people it seems its not necessary

DamagedTrax · 11-12-2008 5:10pm

seannash wrote: »

I think think techno isn't that underground anymore,its pretty much dominating the beatport charts these days.

i think you need to diiferentiate between techno and what beatport has tagged as techno. most of which is just tech-house and minimal. certainly not minimal techno. theres a world of differance between plink plonk mnml and real minimal (robert hood etc)

Neurojazz · 11-12-2008 5:16pm

seannash wrote: »

I dont think a manager is necessary.again I've very little experience but from my small experience and from talking to people it seems its not necessary

The amount of horror stories i hear from artists... having someone to make sure your rights are looked after and that you get paid your dues is essential - unless you know the business and the pitfalls your'e walking into the lions den.

jtsuited · 11-12-2008 5:16pm

seannash wrote: »

well I know jtsuited is playing tripod these days and he's making some real nice techno/minimal.he's signed to a few nice labels,aciitone being one and they run alot of nights.

yeah but in saying all that, I do have a certain few business acquaintances who are both big fans of me and fairly big hitters in the business side of things.

As far as the real business goes ie the actual music, I go through the same contacts that all the producers go through. I send people my stuff. And when they like it, I send them more. And they tell their other friends in the 'business'.

I'm completely at a loss as to what neurojazz's business actually is though. If he was in my line of business, he would be a superflous middleman.

seannash · 11-12-2008 5:21pm

DamagedTrax wrote: »

i think you need to diiferentiate between techno and what beatport has tagged as techno. most of which is just tech-house and minimal. certainly not minimal techno. theres a world of differance between plink plonk mnml and real minimal (robert hood etc)

no I agree its a big melting pot and the term has been used for alot of different types of music but even so its brought techno into the forefront.
.more people are into it now more than ever because of this.there is still some forms of it that doesn't appeal to the beatport crowd(I used to play stuff on drumcode,henrik b and early smith and selway stuff on tronic)and that has always been my opinion of techno,buys its definitely changed and incorporated more elements to it.I'm no expert on it but its definitely got more appeal than it has ever had IMO

Neurojazz · 11-12-2008 5:22pm

jtsuited wrote: »

I'm completely at a loss as to what neurojazz's business actually is though. If he was in my line of business, he would be a superflous middleman.

That's a personal opinion though - if you were an artist that didn't know arse from elbow in the business but wrote heartfelt music then you'd need to be armed to the teeth or get ripped. You've forgotten where you've come from basically.

jtsuited · 11-12-2008 5:22pm

DamagedTrax wrote: »

i think you need to diiferentiate between techno and what beatport has tagged as techno. most of which is just tech-house and minimal. certainly not minimal techno. theres a world of differance between plink plonk mnml and real minimal (robert hood etc)

ah come on. robert hood is massive. techno is massive. yes he does a far more conventional genre of 'techno'. but that doesn't mean that what 'beatport labels as techno' isn't techno.

The lines have blurred between minimal, tech house, and techno a lot over the past few years. Having a purist mentality about genres is one sure way not to have much fun.

there is the more commercial techno (a la Cocoon, Toolroom, Renaissance etc.) but then there is some huge names doing very very dark 'purer' techno (Some of the stuff on Sci+Tec, some of Shlomi Aber's stuff, etc.).

jtsuited · 11-12-2008 5:27pm

Neurojazz wrote: »

That's a personal opinion though - if you were an artist that didn't know arse from elbow in the business but wrote heartfelt music then you'd need to be armed to the teeth or get ripped. You've forgotten where you've come from basically.

what? I've forgottone where I've come from?

No I was saying if you were in my line of work (techno/minimal/prog), there would be no need for you.
Even thinking of my rock music days I can't see what you do.

I send off tracks to labels i like. they send me license agreement contracts that i sign (if i agree to the terms).

How would you not be a middleman in that scenario?

seannash · 11-12-2008 5:31pm

Neurojazz wrote: »

The amount of horror stories i hear from artists... having someone to make sure your rights are looked after and that you get paid your dues is essential - unless you know the business and the pitfalls your'e walking into the lions den.

no ive heard the horror stories but those were all before th digital age really.
these days contracts are sent to the artist and breakdown who gets what.then you get a breakdown of sales every six months and thats it really.you register with ascap for radio royalties and **** but apart from that is there much else we need t worry about if were not breaking into the charts.
there could be so im kinda asking

DamagedTrax · 11-12-2008 5:38pm

jtsuited wrote: »

ah come on. robert hood is massive. techno is massive. yes he does a far more conventional genre of 'techno'. but that doesn't mean that what 'beatport labels as techno' isn't techno.

The lines have blurred between minimal, tech house, and techno a lot over the past few years. Having a purist mentality about genres is one sure way not to have much fun.

there is the more commercial techno (a la Cocoon, Toolroom, Renaissance etc.) but then there is some huge names doing very very dark 'purer' techno (Some of the stuff on Sci+Tec, some of Shlomi Aber's stuff, etc.).

yup techno is huge right now isnt it. theres distros going under by the minute and the biggest labels are selling less than the smaller ones were 5 years ago. intec, who were at one stage selling 20,000 units went bust 2 years ago.

as far as pigeon holing goes i have no problem with cross pollunation of genres but it isnt techno. house is house plain and simple. if it was techno it would be techno. beatport cater to the masses and anyone in that position has the ability to lump stuff in whatever genre they want to and the public will swallow it.

dont get me wrong, i love some minimal (ive remixed format b and i think they're very very talented guys), ive loved house for a long time, dj sneak to me is a magician. but lets get things straight. there is minimal techno out there but its not 99% of the tech-house that beatport say it is.

and i have plenty of fun making cross genre stuff myself, i dont limit myself at all BUT im under no illusions as to what it is.

calling some of that stuff techno is like calling take that indie. sure they use guitars now and again and im pretty sure if mtv stuck them in an indie chart the public would buy it but it doesnt make it true.

a lot of that "techno" is commercially viable safe music for mass consumption. techno is machine music that looks to the future. not regurgetated crap using the same wood block sample and grm tools delay.

just my opinion mind you. its a very subjective arguement and comes from nearly 15 years of being heavily involved with the scene.

Neurojazz · 11-12-2008 5:39pm

Missing point there really.

How many people do you know that have sent tracks off and had problems with the label... across all genres there are problems - you've obviosuly landed on your feet and know about all the agencies or just born with perfect knowledge of how the industry works - there are believe it or not jtsuited, that there are people who don't know, or don't have the time too know.

Labels can be arse, some don't commit fully to releases, some sign music and then shelve it, some contracts don't have cure periods on the signed tracks, some get you to waive rights you shouldn't - then how does the artist find a good publisher for the broadcast collections? - how would they know where too look?

That's just tip of the iceberg.

I lost a lot of money because i didn't have protection or anyone to fight for my rights - got burned for about 100k euros minimum - it does happen, i god hope it doesn't. Another side note... if your making money from your sales, what other revenue streams are there? - new people might not know this and labels are just middlemen of another sort (oh, did i just say that), they serve as a portal to the distributors and other agencies that you let them liase with.

And don't forget YOUR'E the middleman from your soul to the listener :P

Oh, and forgot - as a manager i can also cut out that label in the equation and do everything they do essentially and get accounts direct to the artist...

seannash · 11-12-2008 5:46pm

DamagedTrax wrote: »

yup techno is huge right now isnt it. theres distros going under by the minute and the biggest labels are selling less than the smaller ones were 5 years ago. intec, who were at one stage selling 20,000 units went bust 2 years ago.

as far as pigeon holing goes i have no problem with cross pollunation of genres but it isnt techno. house is house plain and simple. if it was techno it would be techno. beatport cater to the masses and anyone in that position has the ability to lump stuff in whatever genre they want to and the public will swallow it.

dont get me wrong, i love some minimal (ive remixed format b and i think they're very very talented guys), ive loved house for a long time, dj sneak to me is a magician. but lets get things straight. there is minimal techno out there but its not 99% of the tech-house that beatport say it is.

and i have plenty of fun making cross genre stuff myself, i dont limit myself at all BUT im under no illusions as to what it is.

calling some of that stuff techno is like calling take that indie. sure they use guitars now and again and im pretty sure if mtv stuck them in an indie chart the public would buy it but it doesnt make it true.

a lot of that "techno" is commercially viable safe music for mass consumption. techno is machine music that looks to the future. not regurgetated crap using the same wood block sample and grm tools delay.

just my opinion mind you. its a very subjective arguement and comes from nearly 15 years of being heavily involved with the scene.

distros are going under coz theres nothing to distribute.were in the age of digital downloads,noone is using vinyl(okay some are).i know they do more than that but thats a big part of it

Neurojazz · 11-12-2008 5:48pm

seannash wrote: »

distros are going under coz theres nothing to distribute.were in the age of digital downloads,noone is using vinyl(okay some are)

I think Intergroove are still going if you need physical releases.

Shapes · 11-12-2008 5:48pm

Rae & Christian... If Dj's aint playin it, it aint worth ****.

Shapes · 11-12-2008 5:49pm

Are most people on here producing dance music?

DamagedTrax · 11-12-2008 5:51pm

Neurojazz wrote: »

I think Intergroove are still going if you need physical releases.

nope. intergroove germany are and they are an absolute nightmare to deal with and are currently owing out more money by the minute. including to myself. intergroove uk went under last year and i expect germany to follow very soon.

seannash · 11-12-2008 5:53pm

Shapes wrote: »

Are most people on here producing dance music?

no dont think so.i think dance music is the minority on here,i could be wrong though

jtsuited · 11-12-2008 5:53pm

Neurojazz wrote: »

How many people do you know that have sent tracks off and had problems with the label... across all genres there are problems - you've obviosuly landed on your feet and know about all the agencies or just born with perfect knowledge of how the industry works - there are believe it or not jtsuited, that there are people who don't know, or don't have the time too know.

to answer your question, loads of people. but i also know of many people that have had problems with management and A&R agencies trying to be middlemen.
I have a general rule though. I don't deal with anyone who lists 'liaises' with 'the industry' as a business activity.

And I didn't 'land on my feet'. I dealt with a major label fcukin with me for a long time. But you know who really fcuked with us? Every middleman in the chain from the label boss all the way down to the artists ourselves.
And it wasn't through a lack of knowledge on my part that got us into it. It's the mechanics of an industry full of middlemen trying to take a slice of the action.

There are too many people in the mainstream business acting as middlemen, trying to appear as if they are doing something. And that includes A&R men.

In fact there are far too many people in this 'business'.
YOU got screwed over to the tune of 100k in the music business. Would I put my business in the hands of you knowing that?

DamagedTrax · 11-12-2008 5:57pm

seannash wrote: »

distros are going under coz theres nothing to distribute.were in the age of digital downloads,noone is using vinyl(okay some are).i know they do more than that but thats a big part of it

distros are going under because nobody is buying vinyl becaue they just download everything for free. a lot of kids today dont have a love and respect for the overall package the way we used to, therefore people have given up on it.

if the majors hadnt made such a balls up of their business models and shops hadnt raised the price of independent releases to match the majors we wouldnt be in this boat right now.

seannash · 11-12-2008 6:04pm

DamagedTrax wrote: »

distros are going under because nobody is buying vinyl becaue they just download everything for free. a lot of kids today dont have a love and respect for the overall package the way we used to, therefore people have given up on it.

if the majors hadnt made such a balls up of their business models and shops hadnt raised the price of independent releases to match the majors we wouldnt be in this boat right now.

thats true but it doesnt mean that techno aint popular.
and people who do care about there music are getting there music from beatport.now alot of crap labels have sprung up since the digital download(all the labels im signed to

) and alot of this has let in alot of **** and it takes a while to wade through but theres still labels out there making money.its cheaper to do a digital release than to press vinyl(obviously) but the profit margins might not be as big

Shapes · 11-12-2008 6:08pm

So what, in you guys opinion, is the best way for a producer to get his music heard, signed and released while getting a 'liveable' profit?

PaulBrewer · 11-12-2008 6:09pm

Shapes wrote: »

So what, in you guys opinion, is the best way for a producer to get his music heard, signed and released while getting a 'liveable' profit?

Be Good ...

Neurojazz · 11-12-2008 6:10pm

lol - you think i'm still green after losing that amount of money - i don't think i've met anyone who doesn't understand how experience and life *teach*.

I learned an aweful lot about legalese.

The word liases is used in this context so you can understand it:-

I purely liase, the artist is given options on all choices made (like approving spending on PR etc...)

Artists can have problems with communication with companies and businesses - some are autistic, shy or introverted - so helps to heve someone make the calls for them.

You really must have tunnel vision to flame what i'm doing by presuming that me, my life and applications of my sore ass from all the kickings are 'superflous'

Only a totally ignorant person with no understanding of others learning experience would presume anothers purpose in life to be meaningless.

You wouldn't beleive what i do to help people. Far from leech from them and sit on my arse.

Walkin it like you talk it ....

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