Do you LISTEN to music?

dav nagle · 15-05-2008 12:22pm

Afternoon Squibs,

LOL! Talk radio, I know I listen to news talk and Gerry Ryan and just about anybody who is talking an awful lot (when I am in my car) keeps my mind busy.

Fair play to anyone who enjoys success brought on by their art form or musical talent or just hard work, as I said earlier on I am not an old biker with a can of harp in my hand. Digital is great, please don't get me wrong I am a big fan of HD.

I don't want to be clutching at straws, perhaps you are right and Rory would love the HD era. The huge amount of bands now a days who have digital pedals and digital effects covering up their voice and sometimes music. I remember going to see James Taylor and the music, vibe and band were so real. Eric Clapton is another example. In this day and age its how short and sweet a track is and gold dusted it is with that addictive hook line and sinker quality. Other than a few artists like maybe Ryan Adams, there just doesn't seem to be the long career progression for allot of young bands/artists. I wonder why that is?

Like most bands today will find it very hard getting signed if they are particularly over weight? Its just not trendy. It has become more the 'entertainments business' than anything else. I remember a lecturer form my college asked me 'what are you?' and I said 'I am a musician' and he said 'NO' 'Your an entertainer'.

Right down to the small singer/songwriter nights that I see in town, and I have done it myself, If you win the crowd over with theatrics then you receive much credit. 'Man you were deadly' when you know you were okay and that your performance far out weighed your music. Therefore, I look at what Jimi hendrix said when he was asked 'Whats is it like being the best guitarist in the world' and he replied ' I wouldn't know ask Rory Gallagher'

Allot of groups seem more competitive these days. I am so confused about the entire topic, even about what I said. I just see bands coming and going and its a trend. If you haven't heard of 'A' well then your a 'B' category music fan. Some groups are fanatical about recording onto tape for that pure dose of saturation.

Savman · 15-05-2008 1:08pm

dav nagle wrote: »

there just doesn't seem to be the long career progression for allot of young bands/artists. I wonder why that is?

This is anyone's guess but my view is the industry has changed in the last 10 years or so being forced to face things it didn't want. The invention of mp3's was probably the single biggest factor in this drastic change of direction, record companies hands were forced. While being able to copy music is fantastic, it has definitely cheapened the entire perceived value of it in the process. Prince, a musical legend and icon, giving away free copies of his latest album in a Sunday paper. Madness. Clever marketing no doubt, but still madness.

Like most bands today will find it very hard getting signed if they are particularly over weight? Its just not trendy. It has become more the 'entertainments business' than anything else. I remember a lecturer form my college asked me 'what are you?' and I said 'I am a musician' and he said 'NO' 'Your an entertainer'.

Was that Matt the Great?

Nonetheless, it's all true, it has always been an industry of entertainment. Artists who realise this, succeed, those who don't, won't. The Hendrix/Gallagher example is a good one.

As cliched as it sounds, we are involved in Showbusiness - without the show there's no business and without the business there's no show. If you understand this basic concept, you will go a long way to carving yourself a career in this game.

Right down to the small singer/songwriter nights that I see in town, and I have done it myself, If you win the crowd over with theatrics then you receive much credit. 'Man you were deadly' when you know you were okay and that your performance far out weighed your music.

Case in point!

Allot of groups seem more competitive these days. I am so confused about the entire topic, even about what I said. I just see bands coming and going and its a trend.

You're defo on the right train of thought anyway, maybe it's the pups of the Celtic Tiger that killed off the old Irish camaraderie but there's no point longing for the days and ways of the past, the music world has shown that it doesnt stand still so the only thing one can do is get on with it.

Good post tho.

dav nagle · 15-05-2008 1:48pm

Good post,

I am trying hard to be as honest as possible without going overkill with the statements I have made! It is a big topic that most musicians that I know anyway don't really like talking about.:pac:

PaulBrewer · 15-05-2008 3:01pm

Savman wrote: »

This is anyone's guess but my view is the industry has changed in the last 10 years or so being forced to face things it didn't want. The invention of mp3's was probably the single biggest factor in this drastic change of direction, record companies hands were forced. While being able to copy music is fantastic, it has definitely cheapened the entire perceived value of it in the process. Prince, a musical legend and icon, giving away free copies of his latest album in a Sunday paper. Madness. Clever marketing no doubt, but still madness.

Was that Matt the Great?
Nonetheless, it's all true, it has always been an industry of entertainment. Artists who realise this, succeed, those who don't, won't. The Hendrix/Gallagher example is a good one.

As cliched as it sounds, we are involved in Showbusiness - without the show there's no business and without the business there's no show. If you understand this basic concept, you will go a long way to carving yourself a career in this game.

Case in point!

You're defo on the right train of thought anyway, maybe it's the pups of the Celtic Tiger that killed off the old Irish camaraderie but there's no point longing for the days and ways of the past, the music world has shown that it doesnt stand still so the only thing one can do is get on with it.

Good post tho.

SAVMAN speaketh the truth - you may or may not be an Artist, Musician, Innovator, Follower, Rebel, Poet, etc etc but if you are to be heard, you MUST be an Entertainer.

That's what Nick Cave and Ronan Keating have in common!!

dav nagle · 15-05-2008 3:17pm

PaulBrewer wrote: »

SAVMAN speaketh the truth - you may or may not be an Artist, Musician, Innovator, Follower, Rebel, Poet, etc etc but if you are to be heard, you MUST be an Entertainer!

This is what I was taught 7 years ago in college by Pete Haliday, used to be in a famous band. He is right, the gigs where you involve the audience, get them to clap or sing with you, there the gigs that go well. The gigs where you sit there and dont care, well know-body else cares either.

Basicaly if you are bubbling with personality you have a chance to blow some musician who writes essentially better songs and sings better than you off the stage! Tried and tested.

jtsuited · 15-05-2008 4:15pm

dav nagle wrote: »

This is what I was taught 7 years ago in college by Pete Haliday, used to be in a famous band. He is right, the gigs where you involve the audience, get them to clap or sing with you, there the gigs that go well. The gigs where you sit there and dont care, well know-body else cares either.

Basicaly if you are bubbling with personality you have a chance to blow some musician who writes essentially better songs and sings better than you off the stage! Tried and tested.

Ok first of all, you can hardly make being a member of the Radiators from Space any sort of judgement of credibility.

And I would much prefer a world of better songwriters and artists than 'entertainers'.
People like Robbie Williams, Frank Sinatra, Daniel O Donnell etc. are entertainers. There is a hell of a lot of music that shouldn't have to 'entertain' in the same context.

Imagine if Shostakovich had decided 'ah sure I need a real good live one that'll get them dancing in the aisles'.
For God's sake, is it not obvious that this sort of logic leads to a complete dumbing down of music, searching for a lowest common denominator in order to further one's career?

It's the same people who use the 'you got to do what you got to do' argument who will be complaining at every oppurtunity about how bland music sounds nowadays.
And yet the two are inextricably linked.

What next? Radiohead to reinvent the macarena?

Savman · 15-05-2008 4:29pm

Not the same thing JT. Most if not all top tier acts have some element of business acumen, they would also understand the importance of putting on a professional show. That's not exactly saying they aren't artists in their own pedigree. IIRC Radiohead had some CD giveaway thing recently, so they are most definitely clued into these things.

There are still plenty of mighty fine artists out there, you just have to look a little harder. About 5-6yrs ago I remember my Granda going on about some guy called Michael Buble and me thinkin he was short of a few marbles, as it turns out Buble is possible the greatest discovery in recent years. There's also people like Christina Aguilera who has a rare set of lungs and is quite obviously not a fly by night Pop Princess. Both her and Buble are very well marketed individuals, but both are still fantastic talents.

I wouldn't say music is being dumbed down any more than it was for the Beatles or the Monkees back in the day, there's always a market for sugar coated Pop songs. I will say though, Robbie Williams gets right on my tits, cannot stand the guy. Still have to give him credit for being a very astute businessman signing that massive multi-million pound deal a few years back even if he an irritating fecker. :mad:

jtsuited · 15-05-2008 5:36pm

Savman wrote: »

Not the same thing JT. Most if not all top tier acts have some element of business acumen, they would also understand the importance of putting on a professional show. That's not exactly saying they aren't artists in their own pedigree. IIRC Radiohead had some CD giveaway thing recently, so they are most definitely clued into these things.

There are still plenty of mighty fine artists out there, you just have to look a little harder. About 5-6yrs ago I remember my Granda going on about some guy called Michael Buble and me thinkin he was short of a few marbles, as it turns out Buble is possible the greatest discovery in recent years. There's also people like Christina Aguilera who has a rare set of lungs and is quite obviously not a fly by night Pop Princess. Both her and Buble are very well marketed individuals, but both are still fantastic talents.

I wouldn't say music is being dumbed down any more than it was for the Beatles or the Monkees back in the day, there's always a market for sugar coated Pop songs. I will say though, Robbie Williams gets right on my tits, cannot stand the guy. Still have to give him credit for being a very astute businessman signing that massive multi-million pound deal a few years back even if he an irritating fecker. :mad:

how is it not the same thing?

the 'industry' you are speaking of there is precisely the one that is in massive turmoil for trying to market substance-less crap for the past 40 years.
and now that the public has the choice, and are exposed to a far more diverse range of music, that industry does not have a hope in hell (bar a few notable exceptions).

Savman · 15-05-2008 5:56pm

jtsuited wrote: »

how is it not the same thing?

the 'industry' you are speaking of there is precisely the one that is in massive turmoil for trying to market substance-less crap for the past 40 years.
and now that the public has the choice, and are exposed to a far more diverse range of music, that industry does not have a hope in hell (bar a few notable exceptions).

I beg to differ. If you hold such a negative view of this "substance-less crap for the past 40 years" why did you decide to get into music at all? That's the name of the game, always has been and always will be, diving in and then complaining about it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The fact is, there are a huge number of highly respectable artists, both new and old, that are releasing stuff. Santana, Stevie Wonder and Eric Clapton all released albums in the last couple of years on Major labels so although the push doesn't go into every album there is still a supply and demand in the niche markets.

If you are suggesting that the mentioned artists are "substance-less" then I'd love to hear the music that passes your substance test? Don't confuse Pop music with Chart music, one is based on what is actually "Popular" the other is based upon a sales cartel that cannot normally be tapped into by an Independent label. Funny too that Madonna who was an 80's artist is having her latest single played on every radio station imaginable, ten times an hour every hour without fail. The industry will always swamp the market with what it thinks will be "in". There's nothing stopping you, or anyone, going onto iTunes and buying whatever the hell you want but if you're gonna start badmouthing a market aimed specifically towards kids and teenyboppers, it'd be real nice if you tried not to lump every artist in the last 40 years into that category.

dav nagle · 15-05-2008 6:04pm

jtsuited wrote: »

Ok first of all, you can hardly make being a member of the Radiators from Space any sort of judgement of credibility.

Tis a bit harsh ! Leave the guy alone when he is not here to defend his reputation, he was a cracking lecturer and I grew fond of him, I liked his straight talking attitude :eek:

jtsuited · 15-05-2008 6:32pm

ok hold on, i don't want to be a snob here but i talked about substance-less rubbish and somebody retorted with Michael Buble, and Christina Aguilera.

honestly i'm not trying to be bad but come on!!!

And dav, apologies if it's a bit harsh but i feel it needs to be said.

dav nagle · 15-05-2008 6:38pm

jtsuited wrote: »

ok hold on, i don't want to be a snob here but i talked about substance-less rubbish and somebody retorted with Michael Buble, and Christina Aguilera.

honestly i'm not trying to be bad but come on!!!

And dav, apologies if it's a bit harsh but i feel it needs to be said.

Your a lovely fella!!

:):):)

PaulBrewer · 15-05-2008 7:25pm

Savman wrote: »

Not the same thing JT. Most if not all top tier acts have some element of business acumen, they would also understand the importance of putting on a professional show. That's not exactly saying they aren't artists in their own pedigree. IIRC Radiohead had some CD giveaway thing recently, so they are most definitely clued into these things.

There are still plenty of mighty fine artists out there, you just have to look a little harder.

My last point was and is -

'To my mind the Classic Artists in the Rock era (and popular music before that) have all combined Music, Showmanship AND that most feared of words, Business.'

Those who embrace the Business can guard their Art (if they chose to make some! )

RadioHead have been mentioned - universally agreed as artists?

Giving away your album for whatever? Showmanship, surely??

Having the world's media attracted by doing so - Business in action!

To be a long term Successful Artist ( you define success! ) you must have all 3 elements.

I dare anyone to mention anybody who has long term success who hasn't had those 3 things going at the height of their career:p

Buble? Saw him on Parkinson with Rod Stewart .... Rod was da Big Dawg and Bubbles was the wee pup I'm afraid.

PaulBrewer · 15-05-2008 7:27pm

dav nagle wrote: »

Tis a bit harsh ! Leave the guy alone when he is not here to defend his reputation, he was a cracking lecturer and I grew fond of him, I liked his straight talking attitude :eek:

I made a few records with him, a gentle soul and a real fan of music. A fine quiff too as I recall.

sei046 · 15-05-2008 7:40pm

Jt I think Christina Aguilera and Michael Buble are both VERY talented artists, brilliant entertainers and obviously know what they are on about. The beatles, Zep and the stones are some of the best entertainers ever to live. If you think they would be as popular and as influential today if they had stayed in the studio for 11 months then came out and sat on stools on stage for a month your mistaken

sei046 · 15-05-2008 7:43pm

And i dont know this radiators lad but Im sure whatever band he was in must have been ok to be known and if so he is surely more qualified to comment on what it takes to be succesful.

I dont think its the best idea to say someone doesnt have credibility if you yourself are not of higher authority! You know im not getting at you but dismissing a point of view from someone who must have some half decent experience in it seems a little rich from someone who may not have had as much experience.

( I am completely open to correction on this as you may be Bono! And its a point in general, not a dig at you in any way )

PaulBrewer · 15-05-2008 7:50pm

The were Dublin's 'first' Punk Band! Yer man out Philip Chevron out of the Pogues was in it as was Steve Averill U2's sleeve designer... as I recall.

jtsuited · 15-05-2008 8:18pm

sei046 wrote: »

And i dont know this radiators lad but Im sure whatever band he was in must have been ok to be known and if so he is surely more qualified to comment on what it takes to be succesful.

I dont think its the best idea to say someone doesnt have credibility if you yourself are not of higher authority! You know im not getting at you but dismissing a point of view from someone who must have some half decent experience in it seems a little rich from someone who may not have had as much experience.

( I am completely open to correction on this as you may be Bono! And its a point in general, not a dig at you in any way )

no i'm not bono!

i was just pointing out that there are a good few people who were in famous bands in ireland.
That does not qualify somebody's opinion on how the music industry works (or should work).

edit: sorry should give a reason for that last sentence. the music industry in Pete Halidai's day was vastly different than today. And was vastly different to the way it was 10 years ago.
so much so that in my opinion, their opinion isn't really deserving of greater value.
hell, my dad's been in the business for nearly 40 years, and he's always wrong about stuff!

jtsuited · 15-05-2008 8:25pm

oh and just as a btw,

never ever ever ever ever give one bit of credibility to anybody 'who used to be in a band that were sort of known' but now gives talks on how to 'make it in the music business'.

the reason is obvious but for those of you who don't see it it's because if they knew how to make it in the music business they wouldn't be giving talks on that very subject.

Not at all talking about Pete Halidai, but there are many others out there doing it.

sei046 · 15-05-2008 8:28pm

Lets not get into dads in showbusiness!

I think if there is one thing that has stayed constant it is that reclusive artists who are not great "entertainers" tend to have a niche following. I am not saying thats bad!

But in order to reach a large audience, a certain degree of showmanship is required. This showmanship can manifest in any amount of ways!

The likes of the very big bands all had that in common. Look at...your man!.....from the...monkees????...or BEACH BOYS!... brian someone? wilson?... Look at his public profile. Back then he was the muse when he just did not have the entertainer said to make him "popular"

sei046 · 15-05-2008 8:30pm

I cant help but feel very cynical If i feel i have to GIVE credibility. I respect someones opinion on their attitude and principals. There are plenty of idiots who are MASSIVE out there and i dont respect their opinions! I have any amount of time for level headed people and this guys comment doesnt give me any reason to doubt his credibility

dav nagle · 15-05-2008 8:31pm

Look here you pack of harp drinking bikers! If you!!! Jsuited are going to declare who is in your family then brilliant! Because I would love to know! You are wetting my questionable appetite? I am like a cat waiting for its milk at this stage? My name is Dav, it is short for Damhan! Jsuited you are hiding behind your name and why? Seriously? why? I love you! I want you to come out and tell me who you are?

:):) PLEASE!!!!!!!!! WHO ARE YOU???? IN FACT WHO ARE ALL THESE PEOPLE WITH NO REAL NAMES??????

I am like a dog who cannot lick his own balls at this stage!:):):):):)

frobisher · 15-05-2008 8:33pm

Do people really have a problem with artists as entertainers? I have seen a huge amount of live shows and the most memorable ones are not the ones with the best playing or greatest artistic integrity but the ones that are the most fun or had something different about them. Recording is different obviously. I actually think more musicians need to realise that. For a nation that has a produced one of the most famous show men ever we generally seem to have a lot of bands that can't be bothered trying to to entertain their audience. And as for teh singer/songwriters mentioned? Sheeesh, give me a break or at least a few Xanax. I'm a singer/songwriter and I've done that scene round Dublin over the last few months. Maybe I'm missing something here but shouldn't music be fun?!

sei046 · 15-05-2008 8:33pm

WHAT!?!?!? I dont want anything to do with licking your balls Dav

sei046 · 15-05-2008 8:34pm

Fro what is wrong with the people mentioned? What are you referring to?

dav nagle · 15-05-2008 8:36pm

frobisher wrote: »

Do people really have a problem with artists as entertainers? I have seen a huge amount of live shows and the most memorable ones are not the ones with the best playing or greatest artistic integrity but the ones that are the most fun or had something different about them. Recording is different obviously. I actually think more musicians need to realise that. For a nation that has a produced one of the most famous show men ever we generally seem to have a lot of bands that can't be bothered trying to to entertain their audience. And as for teh singer/songwriters mentioned? Sheeesh, give me a break or at least a few Xanax. I'm a singer/songwriter and I've done that scene round Dublin over the last few months. Maybe I'm missing something here but shouldn't music be fun?!

I agree 100%

People want to have fun!

sei046 · 15-05-2008 8:40pm

Yes, but lets not cheapen it TOO much either.

I have to say i cannot listen to a brilliant performer if the musical integrity isnt there. I will admit to that. Like i could listen to the Darkness regardless of the catsuits because the guitar was rocking.

I could not listen to the likes of S club lets say!

dav nagle · 15-05-2008 8:40pm

sei046 wrote: »

WHAT!?!?!? I dont want anything to do with licking your balls Dav

This is getting confusing? I am saying 2 things:

1. I would like to know who or what Jsuited is connected to in the music business because he has mentioned something about that!

2. I am wondering who people are because they use nick names as opposed to their real names!

I am interested purely on a friendly level!

:):)

dav nagle · 15-05-2008 8:41pm

sei046 wrote: »

Yes, but lets not cheapen it TOO much either.

I have to say i cannot listen to a brilliant performer if the musical integrity isnt there. I will admit to that. Like i could listen to the Darkness regardless of the catsuits because the guitar was rocking.

I could not listen to the likes of S club lets say!

I could not listen to Cliff Richard and the grannies love him!

dav nagle · 15-05-2008 8:44pm

sei046 wrote: »

I cant help but feel very cynical If i feel i have to GIVE credibility. I respect someones opinion on their attitude and principals. There are plenty of idiots who are MASSIVE out there and i dont respect their opinions! I have any amount of time for level headed people and this guys comment doesnt give me any reason to doubt his credibility

Now thats what I was trying to say but I could not!!:(

Do you LISTEN to music?

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