EU Lead Ammunition Ban

tudderone · 11-04-2021 12:48am

Zxthinger wrote: »

Air rifle shooting will be destroyed by this disproportionate meddling. Look at the train wreck left by lead free ammo.

It's a disease this moral emotive reactive legislation that's devoid of common sense..
the clown are promoting tungsten and zinc which are as worse becusae they are not tested and proven..

What will Brussels do? Will they give professional pest controllers a dispensation on lead.. ffs

Nope, because to do so would mean admitting the alternatives are not as good as lead projectiles.

GooseB · 11-04-2021 12:05pm

Ireland's Whooper Swan population has increased 27% since the last census in 2015. If this had have happened post-lead ban it would have been thrown in shooter's faces to show that banning lead ammunition was successful. Just remember this is the case should someone use the swan population increase argument at some stage in the future.

https://wicklownews.net/2021/02/new-census-finds-increase-in-whooper-swan-numbers-in-ireland/

Grizzly 45 · 11-04-2021 3:45pm

I think the EU consensus from the shooting orgs EU wide is this;
The lead shot in shotgun shells over the wetlands is a lost battle. Hence we arent seeing much effort anymore on this front. The decisive battle will be now for lead ammo on all fronts.

What does this mean for us here in wetland Ireland? We need to push the got to show this isnt going to go to go away cheaply and that they can wash their hands of this and claim its an EU decision with no consequence to them. IOW they have to either prepare the DOJ for dealing with mass import and export certs of guns being sent to Germany/France/Belgium proof houses to be proofed for steel shot, as the UK is no longer an EU member and certain types of firearms still legal here, cant be handled in the UK as they are Sect 1 prohibited under UK firearms laws or thy provide proof house facilities in Ireland to EU standards to test all firearms for steel shot compatibility. IOW we ALL need to start rattling some cages on this issue here in Govt depts.

Mississippi. · 11-04-2021 10:50pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Hardly surprising that the cops and armies are exempt...Otherwise, the Govts across the EU would be looking at billions to clean up former military and police ranges with their ground contaminants. How much lead is, for example, in the Glen of Immal? Now increase that by 10 or 15 times and you have places like Grafenwohr in Germany or Sailsbury in the UK...No wonder they exempted themselves.

I think it is surprising that cops are armies are being exempted from this ban. On one hand they are telling us that lead is a highly dangerous and toxic metal that has to be controlled but then they are letting the biggest consumers of it carry on as normal. We are only after a very expensive army deafness claims merry go round in this Country and they are now leaving the door open for another set of claims. ( I know life long clay pigeon shooters, airrifle shooters and roofers proof that it's not that dangerous, but can they use that as a defense when they are banning it for civilians ?)

Also if the real reason behind the ban was to control terrorism and crime gangs then the 9mms, 556s and 762s that are going to be exempted are the calibers used by gangs.

Mississippi. · 11-04-2021 10:56pm

badaj0z wrote: »

Why do you think gargoyles are so ugly? When they were installed they were all pretty people and animals but they were clearly distorted by lead infection.

It is acid rain that destroyed the gargoyles and ironically one of the key ingredients of acid rain is sulfur dioxide and as well as from the burning of fossil fuels it is also realised as a byproduct of copper extraction.

tudderone · 11-04-2021 11:07pm

delboythedub wrote: »

Irish government have no interest in sorting out the Avoca River in wicklow which because of the abandoned lead mines there, has contaminated that beautiful salmon and seatrout river. The young fish die on there way down the river on their way out to sea due to lead poisoning They told us they had no funds available to clean it. Strange how they want to ban lead bullets.

Lots of people using Dublin bay wind up sick, raw sewerage being pumped into it, only an asses roar from Eamon Ryan's house. Must of slipped his mind.

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/dublin-bay-survey-shows-sickening-20363463

Zxthinger · 13-04-2021 11:40am

tudderone wrote: »

Lots of people using Dublin bay wind up sick, raw sewerage being pumped into it, only an asses roar from Eamon Ryan's house. Must of slipped his mind.

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/dublin-bay-survey-shows-sickening-20363463

Looks like if yer broke ye can have yer pipes changed with a grant..

Wheres the grant for old firearms or upgrades? I like to be upgraded to larger calibre that are more apt to suffer the degraded ballistic coefficients ..

Grizzly 45 · 13-04-2021 12:53pm

At least with the air rifles, you can stiill grab some scrap lead and a few molds,a heat source and keep yourself supplied with ammo for the rest of your shooting life. To an extent that's also doable with .22lr ammo...Yes, you can reload it too, but it is a major PITA with the hand loader kit and having to scrape out the primer rims and refill them with 2 common household chemicals mixed properly as a primer.
I can see this becoming a big underground shooting industry in the EU,despite them saying they want to ban reloading using lead projectiles as well. And good luck reloading your new steel[prohibited under EU law as it is defined as "armour piercing" in the directives] or other non-lead ammo! ...You need a whole NEW bunch of reloading equipment that handles that,and there is NONE in the civilian market yet.

tudderone · 13-04-2021 12:58pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

At least with the air rifles, you can stiill grab some scrap lead and a few molds,a heat source and keep yourself supplied with ammo for the rest of your shooting life. To an extent that's also doable with .22lr ammo...Yes, you can reload it too, but it is a major PITA with the hand loader kit and having to scrape out the primer rims and refill them with 2 common household chemicals mixed properly as a primer.
I can see this becoming a big underground shooting industry in the EU,despite them saying they want to ban reloading using lead projectiles as well. And good luck reloading your new steel[prohibited under EU law as it is defined as "armour piercing" in the directives] or other non-lead ammo! ...You need a whole NEW bunch of reloading equipment that handles that,and there is NONE in the civilian market yet.

Ah yes i can see it now. Picture the scene, one guy walks down a dingy alley to meet another, who asks "Heroin ? Coke ?", "No, i need lead, and lots of it". I'm going to stock up on lead cartridges and tip on, fcuk them.

Grizzly 45 · 13-04-2021 1:07pm

Zxthinger wrote: »

Wheres the grant for old firearms or upgrades? I like to be upgraded to larger calibre that are more apt to suffer the degraded ballistic coefficients ..

Won't get, as they are not prohibiting your firearm, they are prohibiting the Pews that go into it, and insisting that you use a different Pew,that might not be healthy for your old gun.
So it would behove us to demand off the Irish Govt that they test and make sure our guns are safe and take the responsibility upon themselves if they do blow up or are damaged using the new Pews,as they certified by applying the Irish state seal upon them that we can then take action for official Govt negligence.
And NO the govt can't coin this off to a public-private partnership. The Govt seal can only be applied by the Govt of the day and the president, and that's what in reality a proof stamp is as well. It's a Govt proof house certifying by its official master proofer,as a govt offical that his firearm is Govt certified safe.

Can you see our lot wanting that Damoclean sword above them? Which also is hanging above them too with this nonsensical "Gundealer, instant gunsmith" legislation They go thru this entire rigamarole of security, and political persuasions etc,but neglect to see if the person is actually qualified in a technical field,but certify them as being such...:eek:

GooseB · 16-04-2021 12:08pm

https://www.all4shooters.com/en/hunting/passion/ban-of-lead-in-ammunition-eu-stakeholders-are-now-invited-by-echa-to-submit-information/

Zxthinger · 16-04-2021 6:47pm

So Lead is such a problem that the EPA dropped it from the reporting regime..

The most polluted river in Ireland is the Avoca

http://epa.ie/pubs/reports/water/waterqua/EPA_water_quality_2001-3.pdf

https://www.epa.ie/pubs/reports/water/waterqua/Water%20Quality%20in%20Ireland%202013-2018%20(web).pdf

Background levels of lead are unaffected buy all but industrial usage.. Pure nonsense

Zxthinger · 17-04-2021 10:21am

After a reasonable 'desktop' survey of facts it appears that they only possible method of lead poisoning is from direct consumption.

This study below is week and offered only a school-boys logic on the data. Other references have yet to be examined..

It's seems that the most unfavourable study comes from industrial scale game shot birds.. other studies from Switzerland show large consumption with no effective lead consumption noted or found..

https://www.foodstandards.gov.scot/downloads/Final_Report_%282%29.pdf

Grizzly 45 · 17-04-2021 12:42pm

Even the corpses of the sailors buried up in the Artic circle from Sir Franklins lost polar expedition on the ships HMS Erebus and HMSTerror didn't actually die of lead poisoning as originally thought either.
They were living in Victorian times in a much heavier lead infested environment than we are today and were eating tinned food that had more lead solder in it than normal due to shoddy production methods and did have by today's standards an abnormal lead loading. But that didn't kill them either.

In fact, having people present themselves in the UK with lead toxicity in hospitals is less than 20 a year, and these are people who work with lead on an industrial scale. Lead-induced gout,is less than 3 PA since 2009.[Country squire article 2021 lead into darkness]

So what are the numbers all over the EU of people showing up with lead poisoning form [a] background pollution working with lead [c] ingesting lead shot game?

Feisar · 17-04-2021 1:01pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Even the corpses of the sailors buried up in the Artic circle from Sir Franklins lost polar expedition on the ships HMS Erebus and HMSTerror didn't actually die of lead poisoning as originally thought either.
They were living in Victorian times in a much heavier lead infested environment than we are today and were eating tinned food that had more lead solder in it than normal due to shoddy production methods and did have by today's standards an abnormal lead loading. But that didn't kill them either.

In fact, having people present themselves in the UK with lead toxicity in hospitals is less than 20 a year, and these are people who work with lead on an industrial scale. Lead-induced gout,is less than 3 PA since 2009.[Country squire article 2021 lead into darkness]

So what are the numbers all over the EU of people showing up with lead poisoning form [a] background pollution working with lead [c] ingesting lead shot game?

That’s pretty interesting.

tudderone · 08-05-2021 1:55pm

Steyr doing a rifle dedicated to lead free bullets.

https://www.steyr-arms.com/en/hunting-rifles/lead-free/

Bog Trotter99 · 08-05-2021 2:35pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Even the corpses of the sailors buried up in the Artic circle from Sir Franklins lost polar expedition on the ships HMS Erebus and HMSTerror didn't actually die of lead poisoning as originally thought either.
They were living in Victorian times in a much heavier lead infested environment than we are today and were eating tinned food that had more lead solder in it than normal due to shoddy production methods and did have by today's standards an abnormal lead loading. But that didn't kill them either.

In fact, having people present themselves in the UK with lead toxicity in hospitals is less than 20 a year, and these are people who work with lead on an industrial scale. Lead-induced gout,is less than 3 PA since 2009.[Country squire article 2021 lead into darkness]

So what are the numbers all over the EU of people showing up with lead poisoning form [a] background pollution working with lead [c] ingesting lead shot game?

I come from a time where everything bad for you was in common use and all around you, in every day use and all the rest.

People put pellets and lead soldiers in their mouths. Lead soldiers and farm animals were common kids toys. Same with fishing shot weight which you had to bite to fit on the fishing line.

You actually would eat lead shot if you eat game which a lot of people did back then.

Lead was in the water pipes at least somewhere in everybodys water supply system and of course it was in and had been in the petrol for as long as anybody could remember.

Lead is also in the soil naturally and your food has grown in that soil and the animals you eat had grazed the plants in that soil.

You did see jobs advertised for Lead Beaters and it was a recognized skilled trade.

All solder was lead based.

Red lead paint was used everywhere and on all non rusty steel that you ever saw. It was the only rust protection besides oil and grease. Galvanized steel wasn't that common a sight.

It was the same with everything else thats supposed to be toxic or dangerous or whatever.

I never knew or heard of people who died of lead poisoning. Worked to death, accidents, road accidents, smoking deaths, heart attacks, and cancers were the main deaths that you heard about.

Grizzly 45 · 08-05-2021 2:43pm

An interesting bit of news about steel shot and non steel compatible shotguns.

Was having a talk with a German gun dealer who is well in with the proof house in Keil.
Apprently if the gun is of good proof, you can use steel shot up to 3or 3.5mm in non-magnum loads in std 2.5 in shells irrespective of choke. Your gun when proof shot gets a 30% overcharge load thru it so that is well over any steel charged load power.
Am trying to get some paperwork on this to see what the proof house opinion is on this problem.

Also, yes a proof house stamp when applied by a proof master is both an official govt seal of approval on that gun and it is an official govt agent applying it on behalf of the govt. So another reason no doubt the Irish Govt quietly let this office and legislation die a death and disappeared it mostly:rolleyes:.

Grizzly 45 · 08-05-2021 2:51pm

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

I come from a time where everything bad for you was in common use and all around you, in every day use and all the rest.

People put pellets and lead soldiers in their mouths. Lead soldiers and farm animals were common kids toys. Same with fishing shot weight which you had to bite to fit on the fishing line.

You actually would eat lead shot if you eat game which a lot of people did back then.

Lead was in the water pipes at least somewhere in everybodys water supply system and of course it was in and had been in the petrol for as long as anybody could remember.

Lead is also in the soil naturally and your food has grown in that soil and the animals you eat had grazed the plants in that soil.

You did see jobs advertised for Lead Beaters and it was a recognized skilled trade.

All solder was lead based.

Red lead paint was used everywhere and on all non rusty steel that you ever saw. It was the only rust protection besides oil and grease. Galvanized steel wasn't that common a sight.

It was the same with everything else thats supposed to be toxic or dangerous or whatever.

I never knew or heard of people who died of lead poisoning. Worked to death, accidents, road accidents, smoking deaths, heart attacks, and cancers were the main deaths that you heard about.

Can relate to each and every point you made there.Amazing any of us 60s and older kids have lived to be this old.

Bog Trotter99 · 08-05-2021 3:06pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Can relate to each and every point you made there.Amazing any of us 60s and older kids have lived to be this old.

Tis true Grizzly and as you know there was lots more and lots of it. Everywhere and in every day life but the thing is there are also lots of us still here much to the annoyance of some younger folk.

Health & Safety was a wagging finger and some oldie saying.... "Serve yer self right you should have known better" .......... As they stood there with their Players Navy Cut coffin nail burning their lips.

It is actually laughable at how wrapped up in cotton wool everybody is today and some of the insane things we did. But that was life and you live it in the day.

So now it's lead today. I wonder what is going to be so dangerous it has to be banned next week. Get some feckin wicked cuts off paper you know. :rolleyes:

tudderone · 08-05-2021 3:13pm

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

Tis true Grizzly and as you know there was lots more and lots of it. Everywhere and in every day life but the thing is there are also lots of us still here much to the annoyance of some younger folk.

Health & Safety was a wagging finger and some oldie saying.... "Serve yer self right you should have known better" .......... As they stood there with their Players Navy Cut coffin nail burning their lips.

It is actually laughable at how wrapped up in cotton wool everybody is today and some of the insane things we did. But that was life and you live it in the day.

So now it's lead today. I wonder what is going to be so dangerous it has to be banned next week. Get some feckin wicked cuts off paper you know. :rolleyes:

I'd rather live to be 70 and drop off me perch, than live to 100 and spend the last 15 or 20 years in the dribblers and screamers ward in the local "Care home". I truely mean that, having seen one such ward previously

.

badaj0z · 08-05-2021 7:39pm

The strange thing about dementia and similar conditions(dribblers and screamers) is that you will not be able to know when you become one of them.

Grizzly 45 · 08-05-2021 8:45pm

tudderone wrote: »

I'd rather live to be 70 and drop off me perch, than live to 100 and spend the last 15 or 20 years in the dribblers and screamers ward in the local "Care home". I truely mean that, having seen one such ward previously .

Better to burn out than fade away! Likewise, want to go with some dignity or at least on a surfeit of JD , coke, and hookers. Never get into Valhalla if you died of old age in bed.:D

tudderone · 08-05-2021 9:19pm

badaj0z wrote: »

The strange thing about dementia and similar conditions(dribblers and screamers) is that you will not be able to know when you become one of them.

I don't know if that makes it better or worse

meathstevie · 09-05-2021 12:54am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Better to burn out than fade away! Likewise, want to go with some dignity or at least on a surfeit of JD , coke, and hookers. Never get into Valhalla if you died of old age in bed.:D

Are you curious to find out what those valkyries are like ?

tudderone · 09-05-2021 1:27am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Better to burn out than fade away! Likewise, want to go with some dignity or at least on a surfeit of JD , coke, and hookers. Never get into Valhalla if you died of old age in bed.:D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btAbU1sPqIM

Bog Trotter99 · 09-05-2021 5:21am

What amount of lead shot gets into us or affects the environment? I know that water birds can pick it up and mistakenly use it to grind up their food in their gizzards causing them to absorb it. But it is a natural substance and everywhere in the environment anyway.

A ban wouldnt remove it from our lives. There must be billions of tons of it everywhere because it has been used for hundreds of years. Using it as lead shot doesnt increase our contact with it (unless you forget to duck). The contact we have with it is in our homes and the dust around our cities, towns and villages.

Lead, copper, iron, tin, zinc, titanium, chrome, nickel, phosphorus, asbestos, silver, cadmium, aluminum .... All of these are toxic in some form and are everywhere in billions of tons all around you that you come into contact with everyday. They are in and around your homes, in the dust that you breath. in the water and in your food. Every one of them is a natural substance and everywhere in nature.

Fiberglass, plastic, oils, chemicals, are all manmade and again everywhere. Nearly all of them are toxic.

Makes you wonder how we manage to survive. But of course where big money has an interest the water gets muddy for a while.

tudderone · 09-05-2021 1:11pm

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

What amount of lead shot gets into us or affects the environment? I know that water birds can pick it up and mistakenly use it to grind up their food in their gizzards causing them to absorb it. But it is a natural substance and everywhere in the environment anyway.

A ban wouldnt remove it from our lives. There must be billions of tons of it everywhere because it has been used for hundreds of years. Using it as lead shot doesnt increase our contact with it (unless you forget to duck). The contact we have with it is in our homes and the dust around our cities, towns and villages.

Lead, copper, iron, tin, zinc, titanium, chrome, nickel, phosphorus, asbestos, silver, cadmium, aluminum .... All of these are toxic in some form and are everywhere in billions of tons all around you that you come into contact with everyday. They are in and around your homes, in the dust that you breath. in the water and in your food. Every one of them is a natural substance and everywhere in nature.

Fiberglass, plastic, oils, chemicals, are all manmade and again everywhere. Nearly all of them are toxic.

Makes you wonder how we manage to survive. But of course where big money has an interest the water gets muddy for a while.

Bought a roll of what i thought was solder a while ago, i use it fairly often but it seemed remarkably light when it was placed on the counter. It seems it has to be lead free now, but its nowhere near as good as the proper leaded stuff.

Grizzly 45 · 09-05-2021 2:17pm

meathstevie wrote: »

Are you curious to find out what those valkyries are like ?

Well,have had a few "Valkyries kisses"[hot ejected brass] in my time,so I guess they like me !:D

tudderone · 09-05-2021 3:05pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Well,have had a few "Valkyries kisses"[hot ejected brass] in my time,so I guess they like me !:D

A hot case disappearing into your shirt via your collar, is a sure way to learn break-dancing in my experience !

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

EU Lead Ammunition Ban

Comments