Course Rankings by Slope Rating

manster · 11-11-2020 7:43pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Where did you get those do you mind my asking? Not sure it's all that accurate since Portmarnock Golf Club isn't in the top 10 despite it being rated at 142 off blue and even higher off some of the mixed tees.

https://ncrdb.usga.org/

It's just a sample. I didn't include every course in the country but I have about 140.

There is no definitive list that ranks all the courses in the country so I did what the OP did and started putting one together
If there are more like Portmarnock Golf Club I can add just shout.

cjfitz · 11-11-2020 8:32pm

Luckycharm wrote: »

Interesting how 9 of the top 10 highest sloped courses are parkland courses, I think Ceann Seibheal is links?

Ya it is links.

Lee Valley is the one that baffles me a bit. Greens are slick and it pays to be below the hole but...

copacetic · 11-11-2020 9:13pm

It’s much more realistic to rank by course rating rather than slope. Slope is just about length off tee really, rating is that and other elements of the course. Eg The island is slope 132 off the blues, which sounds easy enough compared to the above course. When most people will know that it is not. Course rating of 75 for par 72 gives you a better idea, although still probably underestimates its difficulty compared to Palmerston house or head fort new for example.

slingerz · 11-11-2020 11:39pm

cjfitz wrote: »

Ya it is links.

Lee Valley is the one that baffles me a bit. Greens are slick and it pays to be below the hole but...

It’s very long off the back tees which is what the slope given there is for

cjfitz · 12-11-2020 12:48am

slingerz wrote: »

It’s very long off the back tees which is what the slope given there is for

That’s fair enough. Have played the blues in an open day this year and didn’t find it too long and I’m not a big hitter but obviously there must be a tee beyond that. It’s a nice track.

manster · 12-11-2020 3:59pm

copacetic wrote: »

It’s much more realistic to rank by course rating rather than slope. Slope is just about length off tee really, rating is that and other elements of the course. Eg The island is slope 132 off the blues, which sounds easy enough compared to the above course. When most people will know that it is not. Course rating of 75 for par 72 gives you a better idea, although still probably underestimates its difficulty compared to Palmerston house or head fort new for example.

You asked to rank by course rating, well here you go...

Seve OB · 12-11-2020 6:07pm

Close.
It really should be ranked by difference between course ranking and par.
Eg. Heritage course ranking is 76.7 but par is 74. So plays 2.7 shots harder than par.
Palmerston ranking is 76.4 but par is only 72 so plays 4.4 shots harder than par.
I think I’d stick in a made up column called difficulty and rank by that. Of course you don’t need to as you can just stick in a formula to run behind but it would be good to see at a glance, especially when you get to the - ones in red at the end

manster · 12-11-2020 6:41pm

Seve OB wrote: »

Close.
It really should be ranked by difference between course ranking and par.
Eg. Heritage course ranking is 76.7 but par is 74. So plays 2.7 shots harder than par.
Palmerston ranking is 76.4 but par is only 72 so plays 4.4 shots harder than par.
I think I’d stick in a made up column called difficulty and rank by that. Of course you don’t need to as you can just stick in a formula to run behind but it would be good to see at a glance, especially when you get to the - ones in red at the end

Like this?

TCM · 19-11-2020 2:05pm

eoghan104 wrote:

Higher than I expected, I suppose this means my handicap will be lower for most other courses?

I would think that Castleknock would be higher as its long tough course.

Seve OB · 19-11-2020 6:17pm

TCM wrote: »

I would think that Castleknock would be higher as its long tough course.

i find its long and forgiving so usually have my better rounds there

copacetic · 19-11-2020 9:12pm

Seve OB wrote: »

i find its long and forgiving so usually have my better rounds there

What tees are you off, always found castleknock shortish and quite a fair driving course, but never played off the backs.

RoadRunner · 20-11-2020 10:43am

manster wrote: »

That's good. An unofficial ranking of our most "difficult" courses.

I say unofficial though, because while tough, Portmarnock and Luttrelstown probably shouldn't top the list. But the european is there high up there. We're probably missing a load of courses still, I'd expect to see carne way up that list too.

As an aside, Moyvalley sticks in my head as a very easy course from a past boards outing, forgiving off the tee and the type of rough where balls can be found and not our 11th most difficult course in the country? Though we may have been playing off yellow tees.

PARlance · 20-11-2020 11:40am

RoadRunner wrote: »

That's good. An unofficial ranking of our most "difficult" courses.

I say unofficial though, because while tough, Portmarnock and Luttrelstown probably shouldn't top the list. But the european is there high up there. We're probably missing a load of courses still, I'd expect to see carne way up that list too.

As an aside, Moyvalley sticks in my head as a very easy course from a past boards outing, forgiving off the tee and the type of rough where balls can be found and not our 11th most difficult course in the country? Though we may have been playing off yellow tees.

Carne was included afaik as it's on the list a few pages back, par 72, 124 and 72.4.

They mustn't have made the trip to Belmullet!

Some of the ratings are miles off what I would have assumed from playing them.

FixdePitchmark · 18-07-2023 11:33am

Guys , just bumping an old thread - unreal piece of work by Manster

I'm just doing a bit of research on this myself at the moment.

This is trying to solve a question with maths - the way these questions should be answered , but the issue we probably have is the data for the likes of course rating could be wrong or dated - I know a course reviews is done every x number of years. But course change , rough changes - I do think that courses have been made way easier over the years - with cut , cut back.

Anyway - any body any comments on the toughest courses in Ireland - also considering the various changes has anyone any comments on the following course in particular

Druids Heath - it used to be one of the hardest courses in Ireland - how have the changes worked, is it much easier ?

Macreddin - when I played it (about 10 years ago) - found it unbelievably hard - how is it these days

The Island - doesn't really feature in above - do people not think it is hard - or the maths doesn't add up for it ]

And what are your top 3 toughest courses you have played in North and South.

redzerdrog · 18-07-2023 12:50pm

European club and portstewart are the 2 hardest I have played especially in the wind

slave1 · 18-07-2023 6:25pm

Didn't find Macreddin that bad, still think Lahinch is the toughest, especially on a windier days and all those collecting bunkers. Lough Erne is tough as well, monster fast greens where 3putts are aplenty and even the odd 4putt

mjsc1970 · 18-07-2023 7:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120866306#Comment_120866306

+1 on European Club. Off the tips. In wind. Torture.

FixdePitchmark · 18-07-2023 10:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120866306#Comment_120866306

I love Portstewart and it is hard ..but actually isn't as hard as some of the ones we are mentioning..yes front 9 is..but there is a fairness to it and the back 9 is on easier side ..in the pure context of the really tough courses ..(imo)

Seve OB · 18-07-2023 11:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120868892#Comment_120868892

I’ve played Portstewart twice. Neither time did I come off with a good score but I put that down to playing badly. Agree it is difficult but would also agree with Fix that it’s not in the same difficulty league as let’s say European or Enniscrone

redzerdrog · 19-07-2023 11:47am

It’s mad how we perceive things. I wouldn’t have said enniscrone is tough at all but I know that is because the day I played I had one of my best rounds ever and shot -2 for the back 9. (10hcap and first time even close to par for 9 holes)

Where as when I played Portstewart it was in gale. I hit a driver to the first Par 3 and didn’t reach it !

blue note · 21-07-2023 5:05pm

It's an impossible question to answer because the question means different things to different people. Firstly, what's a good score to you? I find some courses that are regarded as difficult can be very difficult to get a lot of pars on, but not too bad in terms of keeping the doubles or worse off the card. In particular, big greens and run off areas can make pars difficult. But they make for huge targets to aim for to get near a green in regulation. So to one golfer being in a run off area means a tough up and down for par. To another it's a chance of an up and down for par and a fairly safe bogey.

Then even thinking of two people with similar handicaps, they might play the game very differently. Some people are dead straight but short. They'll find wide fairways and long holes a struggle compared to the guy who's long and wild. Some run the ball all day while others send it in high and land it soft. They latter guy will end up in far more bunkers. It's an interesting question, but a different one to different people.

shakedown · 19-09-2023 12:46pm

Here's the data from 1100+ courses in RoI if anyone fancies doing some data analytics.

ncrdb.txt

paulos53 · 16-03-2024 12:13pm

My club have added a new set of tees that will come into play this summer. A slope & course rating was required for the new tees and they re-rated all of the tees while they were there.

Interestingly, the new tees is a shorter course than the back tees but it was given a higher slope rating. I didn't think that would be possible.

Back tees: Slope rating 131, Course rating 73

New tees: Slope rating 132, Course rating 71.7

They also did something that I haven't seen anywhere else but I think it should be done on every course. i.e. They rated the ladies tees for the men. I doubt that it will ever be used in a competition but gives an extra option for beginners and older members.

Golfgraffix · 16-03-2024 5:46pm

I’ve seen red tees rated for men in a lot of places. Seems to a norm now for any new re-rating.

I wonder if the new tees are bringing more hazards into play ?

paulos53 · 16-03-2024 6:12pm

There are a couple of holes with bunkers 230 yards from the back tee and 20 yards closer from the new tee. That must be enough to make a difference in the slope rating calculations

The Big Easy · 16-03-2024 8:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900585#Comment_121900585

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121901875#Comment_121901875

I think you should move to the red tees after 70/75. You just can't play regulation golf anymore. I think I'd prefer to mostly reach in two and make pars and birdies rather than have more shots but trying to make bogey all the time.

spacecoyote · 16-03-2024 11:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121903028#Comment_121903028

Our place gets close to that with our medals.

They do an alternative seniors medal, off the yellows, so goes from around 6800 down to 6100

golfguy1 · 17-03-2024 12:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900585#Comment_121900585

golf ireland are currently re rating all courses. they have done all ladies and mens tees except back tees so that may be why ratings seem a little odd.

my club is the same

slingerz · 17-03-2024 10:02pm

Re-rating all courses? Can’t think there would have been too many changes in many courses.

perhaps they will use the data from score returns to inform their ratings as well

dan_ep82 · 17-03-2024 10:31pm

Headfort New went from 133/73.6 to 132/73.5 last year.

spacecoyote · 18-03-2024 1:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121903911#Comment_121903911

Makes sense with clubs adopting the One Club model to move from Ladies and Gents clubs to rate all tee boxes for all players

Seve OB · 18-03-2024 10:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121907567#Comment_121907567

I agree to an extent.

i don’t agree that tee boxes need to be rated differently for ladies and men.

it should make no difference if a man is playing the same course but gets less shots than a lady with the same handicap index because they have been rated differently.

rate them both the same and then you can have fair mixed competition of whatever colour tees you like. Until that happens, they will always be ladies tees as opposed to red tees

bakerbhoy · 18-03-2024 1:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121903028#Comment_121903028

We had a pair make it to Bruen final two years ago. Grandfather and grandson . He's 80 years of age now.

slave1 · 19-03-2024 3:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900585#Comment_121900585

Tees are coloured for handicap, Ireland and UK call the forward ones Ladies Tees for no reason, in the US a snr would play off the reds without hesitation but not here as they are "Ladies Tees"

mjsc1970 · 19-03-2024 5:11pm

Give it another generation, they'll just be red tees. All for the better.

Seve OB · 19-03-2024 7:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121912862#Comment_121912862

What do you mean they are called the ladies tees for no reason. They are called the ladies tees because the ladies and only the ladies have played off them for as long as I care to remember 🤣

blue note · 20-03-2024 2:01pm

People wouldn't accept them rated the same for men and ladies.

Say you use the ladies criteria to rate everything; and it's an average difficulty course for ladies from their tees. So an 18 handicap index gets 18 shots. By the time you get back to the blue tees, god knows how many shots an 18 handicapper would get - you could have someone with an index of 18 getting 30 shots for the monthly medal. Single digits would mean you're in the top 70% of golfers or something. The reverse would be true if you rated them all using the mens ratings and worked out the womens handicaps that way.

blue note · 20-03-2024 2:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121906978#Comment_121906978

I hope this is what's happening. If you've two courses with the same ratings, you'd expect the scores on them to be the same (within reason). You could surely map out expected scores based on the course ratings and handicaps of those playing them and identify outliers. After 3 years or whatever it is at this stage of WHS, you probably have enough data to do it. I would be surprised if there's not a few courses that are way out of line of what's expected.

PARlance · 20-03-2024 2:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913561#Comment_121913561

They might not identify as tees in another generation!

It's going back a few years but I often seen the lowest HC golfer in our club playing off the red tees when practicing, he used to do it to get used to the mindset of making birdies / playing and closing out rounds under par. It didn’t do him any harm.

Dr Turk Turkelton · 20-03-2024 11:03pm

If I'm out playing with my kid I play off the juvenile yellow tees with her.

It's great driving onto a par 4 green or a 9 iron second shot into a par 5.

Bit like buying a 150 ml can of coke and pretending to be a giant😂

benny79 · 21-03-2024 8:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121917206#Comment_121917206

I heard Dechambo say this in a interview saying its a good way to practise. I played a couple of 9 hole in the evenings last summer with my mate off the ladies tees have to say it was great fun! A couple of par 4's just short of the green etc!

Seaaan123 · 12-08-2024 6:03pm

Played Beaverstown recently which has a slope rating of 136. What do people that have played it think of this? Fair rating?

swededmonkey · 16-08-2024 9:08am

Personally I think its tad inflated. Given its length, I never found it overly difficult…provided you stay out of the trees!

taptaptaperoo · 12-09-2024 1:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120865961#Comment_120865961

Macreddin off the black tips is incredibly hard. The black tips challenge runs every summer there where anybody scoring 30 points or above qualifies for the grand final. Less than 80 people qualified this year which shows you how hard it is.

I played with a 6 handicapper who had 24 points and a 10 who had 22. My index was a lot higher at the time and I had 27. Went back to play it again for a casual round with a few friends and had the same experience again. Beautiful course, but it's a tough tough test of golf and by far the hardest course i've played off the tips.

Course Rankings by Slope Rating

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