Managing very poor performance

LegacyUser · 25-06-2020 10:31pm #1

I'm in a management role about 18 months now and have an employee whose performance is beyond poor - not just a bit of a slacker or needing a firm nudge to get things done, but maybe hitting 20% of targets at best, and using excuses and blaming others to escape accountability. On top of all that there is extreme passive aggression and arrogance to the point that she thinks nobody can question her ability or skills.

I'm torn how to deal with this - I have tried playing the "i'm on your side, but we need to resolve this and find ways for you to hit your targets" nicely nicely approach, but no progress, if anything it's getting worse over time. I fear clamping down hard will just play into her hands though as this is somebody who seems to love the battle and conflict. I am honestly scratching my head trying to move this forward.

Any tips on nipping it in the bud and improving things?

Mrs OBumble · 02-07-2020 1:24am

Get advice from your manager and HR department. It may be that she really is untouchable due to political factors beyond your control.

Tell me how · 02-07-2020 1:53am

helpmeimnotadoctor wrote: »

I'm in a management role about 18 months now and have an employee whose performance is beyond poor - not just a bit of a slacker or needing a firm nudge to get things done, but maybe hitting 20% of targets at best, and using excuses and blaming others to escape accountability. On top of all that there is extreme passive aggression and arrogance to the point that she thinks nobody can question her ability or skills.

I'm torn how to deal with this - I have tried playing the "i'm on your side, but we need to resolve this and find ways for you to hit your targets" nicely nicely approach, but no progress, if anything it's getting worse over time. I fear clamping down hard will just play into her hands though as this is somebody who seems to love the battle and conflict. I am honestly scratching my head trying to move this forward.

Any tips on nipping it in the bud and improving things?

As the other poster said, talk to your company HR for advice. If that is not an option, talk to your line manager.
Does the company have an employee handbook which this employee was given when they started working there? If it exists, it should outline the procedure for dealing with employee performance.

What you can do while investigating the above. Start to create a chronological record of the employee performance shortcomings and when you spoke to them or communicated to them in relation to this.

It is probably best to assume that any words you have had in relation to this matter so far are informal but that once you know the procedure, the conversations will become formal. The employee must know that this is the case.
Make sure that any information you are using to support your opinions is freely available to you in your role and is not second hand from anyone else.
This chronological record might not make any difference in terms of going forward and might not be used to initiate any action against the employee, but will be good for you to collect your thoughts and to remain consistent and professional if previous conversations are referenced.

You are right to be aware of the passive aggressive potential and arrogance as those traits have the potential to create ongoing issues even if productivity is corrected.
You might want to consider actively seeking to remove this person from under your responsibility for these reasons but if so, it needs to be done fairly and in line with company protocols. Thread softly, but firmly! It is too late to nip this in the bud but maybe if the employee sees you are serious and they have a look at the jobs market at the moment, they may see sense.

Finally, if HR, or employee handbooks are non-existent in the company, talk to your line manager or the owner about how this is an issue. They should take steps to correct this as not having such items in place is pretty much guaranteeing an issue will ultimately arise in most of today's types of industries.

Telly · 02-07-2020 8:14am

Put her on a PIP. I had to do that and it really worked.

Jim Root · 04-07-2020 4:25pm

PIPs are the way to deal with these types

Jim2007 · 05-07-2020 3:15am

Jim Root wrote: »

PIPs are the way to deal with these types

If they are as bad as the OP says, are still there and they don't give a dam, then there is every chance they are there because management want them to be there - usually a political or commercial reason.

I knew one case where a senior manager kept the most unless article on for one reason - anytime things went wrong, he'd point to the guy and mutter what do you expect - look at the quality of the staff. When he moved to a new company the yoyo went with him.

On another occasion the useless article was kept on because he was related to the CEO of the company's biggest customer.... When he was asked for an explanation as to why he had missed several Tuesday coming to Easter, he happily explained to HR that he was off Tuesdays for Lent and got away with it.

The_Honeybadger · 05-07-2020 3:50am

Jim2007 wrote: »

If they are as bad as the OP says, are still there and they don't give a dam, then there is every chance they are there because management want them to be there - usually a political or commercial reason.

I knew one case where a senior manager kept the most unless article on for one reason - anytime things went wrong, he'd point to the guy and mutter what do you expect - look at the quality of the staff. When he moved to a new company the yoyo went with him.

On another occasion the useless article was kept on because he was related to the CEO of the company's biggest customer.... When he was asked for an explanation as to why he had missed several Tuesday coming to Easter, he happily explained to HR that he was off Tuesdays for Lent and got away with it.

PIP is the way to go here OP but TBH it sound like this employee is going to be a problem no matter what you do, passive aggressiveness and a general attitude problem are major red flags for me.

I’m having a somewhat similar issue without the attitude problems. We have a clerical officer in my office who is quite capable but completely disinterested, continually forgetting important tasks, sloppy errors all over the place, texting on the mobile all day etc. She doesn’t report to me but I do have her assigned to me for certain tasks which are frankly unbearable due to having to micromanage her to the point where it would nearly be easier to do the work myself. Like yourself I have been on the softly softly road so far but my patience is wearing very thin at this stage. Very frustrating.

Tell me how · 05-07-2020 4:11am

Telly wrote: »

Put her on a PIP. I had to do that and it really worked.

Jim Root wrote: »

PIPs are the way to deal with these types

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

PIP is the way to go here OP but TBH it sound like this employee is going to be a problem no matter what you do, passive aggressiveness and a general attitude problem are major red flags for me.

The company should have the whole disciplinary process, including PIP's documented or if not, that's a hurdle they should overcome before starting to focus on a staff member.

If they don't have this, a PIP might still work but given that attitude suggested, if it is not done in an official and transparent manner, they could be open to accusations of unfair treatment from this employee in future.

LegacyUser · 05-07-2020 2:49pm

Thanks a lot for this advice everyone. Unfortunately it is in the civil service, so I think this does not help as there is no fear of the individual losing their job or even being moved on to another department or section.

All I can do is ensure I am fully professional and document things as much to cover myself even. I am concerned with me being only 18 months into the role that the criticism will be levelled at me rather than the individual, so recording communication efforts in relation to the performance issue with her might help.

I will look into the PIP concept - I am not sure if this kind of things is possible in the CS, but perhaps could be a follow-up from the annual PMDS review.

skallywag · 06-07-2020 9:56am

It sounds to me that the writing is on the wall, and that there is nothing you can genuinely do to help this person improve. You seem like you are genuinely trying to help, but that she just has no interest. I myself would immediately get the ball rolling on dismissing her, taking care to do everything by the book of course.

1hnr79jr65 · 06-07-2020 4:52pm

I would follow a pip process for this employee, at the very least if it is a fair pip guide path with achievable and measurable goals against the average of the team then no one can say you are picking on them. From that perspective is protects you OP.

_Brian · 06-07-2020 10:46pm

A pip will work but only if the company has proper disciplinary systems in place.
There has to be a balance of both carrot and stick to put it bluntly.

Something to benifet the employee if the pip is successful and some negative outcome if they fail the pip.

If more senior management and indeed hr aren’t committed to this it will fail half way and reinforce to the employee that they are untouchable. If it’s a union environment then the union will need to be bought into the process too or it will get out of hand quickly.

It sounds like you have targets already in place which is the first step.

I wouldn’t go straight to the pip though, I’d be looking to start by sitting down for a 1:1 with the employee and set attainable goals over a period. Agree them and get a signature. Include that non attaining these will result in a disciplinary action and a pip. That gives the employee a fair chance to buck up and avoid a disciplinary which is really the goal anyway.

If the goals aren’t met I’d then proceed with the pip and a verbal warning. I’ve always made a “verbal” warning a formal document that the employee signs to reinforce its gravity as being the first step of a process that can end in termination. Signature is acknowledgement the document has been delivered not necessary agreement. If employee refuses to sign I call in another supervisor or manager to co sign it’s delivery.

Very few managers enjoy this process but it is essential. What will happen otherwise is other employees will see this lady as having an easy life with no repercussions and so slack off as well.

one world order · 06-07-2020 11:08pm

As already has been said a PIP needs to be put in place with a member of HR to act as intermediary. However before it gets to that stage, sit down and have a conversation with her, making sure she knows the seriousness of the situation. Meeting deadlines and quality of work is very important in performance based cultures. At least that way you gave her every opportunity to improve.

brookers · 07-07-2020 2:52pm

helpmeimnotadoctor wrote: »

I'm in a management role about 18 months now and have an employee whose performance is beyond poor - not just a bit of a slacker or needing a firm nudge to get things done, but maybe hitting 20% of targets at best, and using excuses and blaming others to escape accountability. On top of all that there is extreme passive aggression and arrogance to the point that she thinks nobody can question her ability or skills.

I'm torn how to deal with this - I have tried playing the "i'm on your side, but we need to resolve this and find ways for you to hit your targets" nicely nicely approach, but no progress, if anything it's getting worse over time. I fear clamping down hard will just play into her hands though as this is somebody who seems to love the battle and conflict. I am honestly scratching my head trying to move this forward.

Any tips on nipping it in the bud and improving things?

Do her colleagues not say anything. I worked with a similar type person and there was going to be a revolt amongst staff if she didnt do her fair share. in the end she left and i guess brought her lack of work ethic to her new job. In another situation with a person missing days, mainly fridays and mondays and every few weeks a complete week off. In the end HR were really smart, they brought her in and said that they would love to help if there was a physical or mental health reason why she couldnt do her job to the best of her ability, they said they were prepared to pay for a consultant to assess her and give her the best treatment available. She got an awful fright and left soon afterwards.

LegacyUser · 07-07-2020 4:14pm

Sorry for the delay in responding - my posts need approval by a mod as I am posting anonymously.

Some colleagues are frustrated at the perception that a "blind eye" is being turned to her and some feel they are carrying the burden of her workload on top of their own. Sick leave has also been a frequent occurrence as well as being late, disappearing for parts of the day etc. Hopefully the PIP or something similar through PMDS will provide a reality check. I am tearing my hair out after over a year of this.

John Hutton · 07-07-2020 10:50pm

helpmeimnotadoctor wrote: »

Sorry for the delay in responding - my posts need approval by a mod as I am posting anonymously.

Some colleagues are frustrated at the perception that a "blind eye" is being turned to her and some feel they are carrying the burden of her workload on top of their own. Sick leave has also been a frequent occurrence as well as being late, disappearing for parts of the day etc. Hopefully the PIP or something similar through PMDS will provide a reality check. I am tearing my hair out after over a year of this.

Have some experience in this area myself.

Here's how to do the disciplining bit properly.

Start from scratch tomorrow.

Document transgressions.

Have (and document) multiple informal meetings where you raise these transgressions.

Raise them more seriously at PMDS mid year review and basically fail them for it. You cannot, under any circumstances, just leave raising issues until PMDS meetings. Anything you say or give out to them for at a PMDS meeting for you must have raised multiple times before hand, and documented it, so they can't say you sprung it on them. Inform your manager beforehand of your intentions and that you intend putting them on a PIP, and then go ahead with that.

Presumably things won't improve, keep having meetings and documenting things.

Talk to your manager and inform them of your intention to fail the employees year end PMDS. This means they won't get any increment. Also contact HR and tell them the same and ask for advice.

What will likely happen at this stage is that the employee will get onto the union, your manager will have to get involved and it will be a ****storm. If your PO is intelligent, at some stage, probably early on, he will basically say that you have suffered enough and move the employee to be someone else's problem.

If you get the waterworks formally refer the employee to the support services.

Whatever you do, do not yell or make sarky comments. Keep with the "I'm concerned" vibe all the way through this.

The key is to make it a problem for your boss and also potentially HR. As things stand, they don't see any problem. Even you moaning to your manager isn't really a problem for him. Failing an employee on PMDS and them going mad, with department HR and the union getting involved is a massive problem for your PO. They might even pressure you to pass them to stop the headache. At which stage you refuse to do so unless they are moved.

The offender will be moved, which is really the only solution, and it will likely work out that the employee will think they have won the battle. But they will be out of your hair.

Also be aware that the "I've been allowed get away with this for years and years" actually is a defence with some merit. Especially because you can be sure that nothing before you arrived has been properly documented which means that as far as the records show the employee was fine until you showed up.

Document everything, I send an email after the meeting "this is to confirm we discussed xyz and we agreed abc"

John Hutton · 07-07-2020 10:56pm

If your PO has cop on once he sees you are determined to go down this road he will just move the employee

LegacyUser · 08-07-2020 10:34am

Thank you John Hutton - that is very helpful.
I will start from scratch tomorrow and record conversations about this for the next months. Then at PMDS time there will be a record to bring to the table. I am not sure if moving her to another section is an option if it comes to it, but at least there will be a long trail of transgressions to make a case.

Strumms · 08-07-2020 9:18pm

I’ve been in this situation where for ‘years’ two different bosses ‘facilitated’ the most useless bastárd known to man. When he was pushed to do his fair share and hurried up, mistake after mistake happened, of course to be fixed not by him, by the following shift as in my team, morale sapping... I once happened upon his performance review and he was marked and scored in the top 10% of our department.

The only way to fix is to discipline. If he does not get work done in the timeframe set out ?... letter of concern... if hurrying up puts him under pressure to the point he makes errors ? Discipline for poor performance needs to happen.

No team should be carrying passengers. Yes some employees are going to be more efficient, fast, accurate and error free, but there needs to be a minimum standard.

08-07-2020 10:02pm

If the issues are thoroughly documented, why should the PO be worried about the union or not?

As long as the employee is treated fairly, there's nothing the union can do.

John Hutton · 08-07-2020 10:59pm

salonfire wrote: »

If the issues are thoroughly documented, why should the PO be worried about the union or not?

As long as the employee is treated fairly, there's nothing the union can do.

That's the theory, reality is far far different. It is massive hassle and no PO wants to deal with it

It's not that the PO would get in trouble or anything it's just a massive headache and it's easy to make one small little mistake along the way

John Hutton · 08-07-2020 11:08pm

Just to add, I'm not slagging off the union I was a rep myself for years and think everyone should be in a union but I know from personal experience that it is easy to overlook something that tbe union will notice and senior management will just want the problem to go away.

Plus when it gets serious you'll have the whole being accused of bullying and tbe mental health card being played and it gets tricky

Ciaranis · 08-07-2020 11:11pm

So the caricatures of the public service are... not without validity

08-07-2020 11:18pm

John Hutton wrote: »

Just to add, I'm not slagging off the union I was a rep myself for years and think everyone should be in a union but I know from personal experience that it is easy to overlook something that tbe union will notice and senior management will just want the problem to go away.

Plus when it gets serious you'll have the whole being accused of bullying and tbe mental health card being played and it gets tricky

Even though you know first hand the problems they can cause it in dealing with poor performance?

Think about the amount of time the OP has spent on this person already, then needs to spend even more time to document and deal with it only for the person to be moved on to become someone's problem. Then the cycle starts again.

John Hutton · 08-07-2020 11:23pm

Ciaranis wrote: »

So the caricatures of the public service are... not without validity

Even caricature has an element of reality, albeit exaggerated. That's what makes it a caricature!

People like the OPs staff member are: 1. Very Few. 2. Hated by everyone 3. Dying out

They are a legacy issue. People like this now do not get past interviews etc and if they do they do not pass probation.

Look at it this way, OPs employee could have a decade, or two, or more, of service where not one transgression has been properly DOCUMENTED. Everyone will know that the employee is ****. But the records will show that they were grand until 18 months ago OP arrived on the scene. Just think about how this can be portrayed and twisted.

The civil service is a great place to work and the vast majority do great work. But there are a few pricks who take advantage but they are being weeded out.

Ideally the person should be sacked but that would be extremely difficult.

My posts here are to try and help the OP who is at his wits end with some practical advice which basically boils down to: make this a problem for someone who has the power to move the problem staff member

seannash · 08-07-2020 11:24pm

Im surprised you have to be told to use a PIP on here. If she has measurable goals just do it by numbers. Doesn't matter where this employee works, she either inproves or is issued warnings until she's terminated.
So avoid the politics of why this persons feels she can under perform and get away with it and ya know..be a manager and discipline an underperforming employee.

John Hutton · 08-07-2020 11:28pm

salonfire wrote: »

Even though you know first hand the problems they can cause it in dealing with poor performance?

Think about the amount of time the OP has spent on this person already, then needs to spend even more time to document and deal with it only for the person to be moved on to become someone's problem. Then the cycle starts again.

The union won't cause the problem.

Do you think that OPs staff member will go to the union and say "I've been a terrible freeloader for years and my boss is totally right"? Of course not, the union will get a sob story and then the union will do their job which is to help represent the worker. The union will look at everything and more than likely someone won't have done something properly somewhere or an alternative solution proposed such as a transfer.

Think about it this way, if a worker has years and years of not getting in trouble, and has documents to demonstrate this (never been on a PIP, has passed PMDS etc.) and goes to the union and says manager of last 18 months is picking on me and making my life hell why shouldn't the union represent that person as vigorously as possible?

LegacyUser · 09-07-2020 8:46am

John Hutton wrote: »

The union won't cause the problem.

Do you think that OPs staff member will go to the union and say "I've been a terrible freeloader for years and my boss is totally right"? Of course not, the union will get a sob story and then the union will do their job which is to help represent the worker. The union will look at everything and more than likely someone won't have done something properly somewhere or an alternative solution proposed such as a transfer.

Think about it this way, if a worker has years and years of not getting in trouble, and has documents to demonstrate this (never been on a PIP, has passed PMDS etc.) and goes to the union and says manager of last 18 months is picking on me and making my life hell why shouldn't the union represent that person as vigorously as possible?

John this is exactly my fear - she will say "there has never been a problem with my work before in 20 years" until 18 months ago - so now it seems I am the problem and it is me bullying her or using a power imbalance. I am afraid I will make a small error somewhere along the way - phrase something with the wrong tone - and be hung out to dry on it.

It has been really helpful to have this advice, but even with a PIP I think it will be a challenge and can see that the next ten years might mean me working with her in very tense and hostile circumstances with little or no improvement and her doing the bare minimum until she retires.

sweet_trip · 09-07-2020 10:07pm

Used to have a colleague like this in my PS job. Absolute tyrant, and a total sociopath with severe issues that would terrorize fellow staff and clients.

It was horrendous, people would actually call in sick to avoid working with her.
She would bully and abuse managers. Had her solicitor on speed dial.
Actually assaulted some clients and ended up turning it on them and played victim.

She would actually come in and at 10am (2 hours late) in the morning would point blank refuse to do work because "I want to be finished on time today". And would just go sit in the break room or go off shopping for the day and then piss off an hour before finish time.

She was totally untouchable. Management dreaded her and it went so far up the chain and they never could handle her. It was horrendous.

Her previous PS employer gave her glowing references just to get rid of her and offload her on our department.

In the end she faked an injury and got a massive payout.

Sickening.

LegacyUser · 10-07-2020 11:07am

Thanks sweettrip (and everyone else) - this sounds exactly like my own case. At least I know I am not on my own with this and not the first person to experience it. It really is tough situation, so I will just take any small improvement right now and try and build on it I think whilst keeping my own mental health on track if I can.

AndrewJRenko · 10-07-2020 5:45pm

helpmeimnotadoctor wrote: »

Sorry for the delay in responding - my posts need approval by a mod as I am posting anonymously.

Some colleagues are frustrated at the perception that a "blind eye" is being turned to her and some feel they are carrying the burden of her workload on top of their own. Sick leave has also been a frequent occurrence as well as being late, disappearing for parts of the day etc. Hopefully the PIP or something similar through PMDS will provide a reality check. I am tearing my hair out after over a year of this.

Talk to your HR people urgently. Get yourself on a performance management course as soon as possible.

It absolutely is possible to deal with this, though it won't be easy. Get your PO on your side.

AndrewJRenko · 10-07-2020 5:47pm

sweet_trip wrote: »

Used to have a colleague like this in my PS job. Absolute tyrant, and a total sociopath with severe issues that would terrorize fellow staff and clients.

It was horrendous, people would actually call in sick to avoid working with her.
She would bully and abuse managers. Had her solicitor on speed dial.
Actually assaulted some clients and ended up turning it on them and played victim.

She would actually come in and at 10am (2 hours late) in the morning would point blank refuse to do work because "I want to be finished on time today". And would just go sit in the break room or go off shopping for the day and then piss off an hour before finish time.

She was totally untouchable. Management dreaded her and it went so far up the chain and they never could handle her. It was horrendous.

Her previous PS employer gave her glowing references just to get rid of her and offload her on our department.

In the end she faked an injury and got a massive payout.

Sickening.

Why was she 'untouchable'? Why didn't her line managers go through the well established performance management processes?

sweet_trip · 10-07-2020 8:28pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Why was she 'untouchable'? Why didn't her line managers go through the well established performance management processes?

They did but you have to understand the public service body I'm not going to name. It's practically impossible to be sacked.

At the very most she got a stage 1 disciplinary or a written warning.

It's a long long story but essentially you could basically beat the **** out of your manager and slash the tires on their car and get away with it if you wanted in some public service sections. (this has happened several times around the country in this role)

You can rack up dozens of disciplinary actions and be let away with it.

I could write a book on it. Most probably wouldn't believe me.

AndrewJRenko · 10-07-2020 9:05pm

sweet_trip wrote: »

They did but you have to understand the public service body I'm not going to name. It's practically impossible to be sacked.

At the very most she got a stage 1 disciplinary or a written warning.

It's a long long story but essentially you could basically beat the **** out of your manager and slash the tires on their car and get away with it if you wanted in some public service sections. (this has happened several times around the country in this role)

You can rack up dozens of disciplinary actions and be let away with it.

I could write a book on it. Most probably wouldn't believe me.

It's not true that they can't be sacked.

sweet_trip · 10-07-2020 9:08pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It's not true that they can't be sacked.

I know. It was hyperbole but it might as well be true because from the years ive worked in the PS I've seen some atrocious carry on, and some employees rack up records/reputations worse than criminals and they never get more than a slap on the wrist and are allowed carry on.

Probably not the right thread to be discussing this in.

screamer · 10-07-2020 9:12pm

Being late- easy to address. Easy to discipline for also.
Sick leaves- make her attend the company doctor.
Poor performance a pip is needed as it’s a document of what is expected, what is actually being delivered and the steps needed for improvement. You’ll basically have to give her clear goals ( number based are best) and then literally sit on her tail every week to find out what’s happening, what the trend is in delivery etc, and you need HR fully in your corner. Although, to be honest I’d say you’ll see her go on extended sick leave if you go down that route. Finally document every one to one with her, type up a he said, she said and I’d send it to your HR person as a note in case she comes making some bull**** claim of bullying or otherwise.
It’s not going to be easy, and it will take some skin off you, but there’ll be people in your team who will respect and thank you for doing it, even if you can’t tell them, they’ll find out.

Snow Garden · 10-07-2020 9:16pm

OP, be very very careful.

I worked in the public sector for several years in the 2000s and I know you are in a very tricky situation. A PIP might work in the private sector but it will not work for you.

I have seen good managers destroyed by the union when they tried to tackle a poor performer. These types tend to know their 'rights' and options. Taking them on is simply not worth the hassle. You could end up at the WRC.

My advice - change her role/tasks so that she has less interactions with the rest of the team and others are not dependent on her work. Not easy to do but a poor performer can have a toxic effect on the whole team. I even saw managers encourage poor performers to go for other roles with higher grades just to move them on.

Do document everything she does just to cover your backside in case things escalate internally. I actually did not have a formal performance appraisal for nearly 7 years. It was just a tick-the-box but I always got my increments.

Be careful talking to HR too. They are a varied bunch in the public sector. Some might see you as a trouble maker. Other might go on a bit of a power trip. Read all the performance, disciplinary, grievance and complaints procedures in detail too. I don't envy you, no winners here.

johng906 · 10-07-2020 9:21pm

My experience from managjng people in big MNCs:

Document everything you are doing, saying, observing.

How is the person accountable to their targets? - the responsibility to improve is theirs, keep on peeling back the barriers to effective performance until there is nothing else to blame but themselves.

When you see something, say it - feedback needs to be timely or theres no point.

Engage HR / your management for awareness from the outset.

Give the employee every chance to improve before "formal" disciplinary proceedings - use principles of natural justice

Snow Garden · 10-07-2020 9:21pm

John Hutton wrote: »

Look at it this way, OPs employee could have a decade, or two, or more, of service where not one transgression has been properly DOCUMENTED. Everyone will know that the employee is ****. But the records will show that they were grand until 18 months ago OP arrived on the scene. Just think about how this can be portrayed and twisted.

Very very good point especially if all the previous managers turned a blind eye. And then you will get employees that simply lie to get their way.

LegacyUser · 10-07-2020 9:28pm

Snow Garden, that's what I am afraid of. This all coming back on me, or even if I document everything to cover myself (though I am afraid I'll do something tiny or insignificant that leaves me open to scrutiny), the mental health / strain of it. I can see this turning into a "manger-bullying-employee" spin because the problem has never been tackled or highlighted before due to the culture of her previous managers all avoiding having difficult conversations to point out the issues. I can't really move her duties to something less important or a lower visibility area and forget about her. Not at the moment anyway, but maybe something to think about down the line.

Would a performance management course really help? If anyone has any recommendations let me know!

Mrs OBumble · 10-07-2020 10:41pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It absolutely is possible to deal with this, though it won't be easy. Get your PO on your side.

Ahhh bless! Such innocence.

John Hutton · 10-07-2020 11:14pm

helpmeimnotadoctor wrote: »

Snow Garden, that's what I am afraid of. This all coming back on me, or even if I document everything to cover myself (though I am afraid I'll do something tiny or insignificant that leaves me open to scrutiny), the mental health / strain of it. I can see this turning into a "manger-bullying-employee" spin because the problem has never been tackled or highlighted before due to the culture of her previous managers all avoiding having difficult conversations to point out the issues. I can't really move her duties to something less important or a lower visibility area and forget about her. Not at the moment anyway, but maybe something to think about down the line.

Would a performance management course really help? If anyone has any recommendations let me know!

There are good one learning courses the civil service run on managing underperformance (I think it's called that) which I reccomend. I found them very useful, particularly on managing people on probation.

Definitely go on them, but it mightn't overly help with your particular issue but you never know.

Document everything in the meantime but you're right to be careful.

Honestly though she won't get better, what you need to do is get her moved to be someone else's problem.

Try and be creative - can you think of any divisional issue that perhaps needs attention? (GDPR review is a popular one around now, or maybe an archive review, or clearing out of decades old files, either to be binned or sent to national archives? Or maybe something else buried in the business plan that never gets done?) If there was such an issue and a working group set up to tackle it, perhaps you would be so gracious as to offer this employee to help the project full time for 3 or 6 months? And sure when she was gone maybe your team would become more efficient and become clear that you don't need that extra person, and graciously offer to not take her back and allow her to be allocated to one of the other teams desperate for additional numbers?

Or you could go down the road of just leaving her as is and blaming her for everything that goes wrong and missed deadlines etc? (Which are actually her fault)

Remember, if you or others pick up the slack and do the work and stuff gets done then as far as management are concerned there is no problem. You have to make it a problem for them, and if everyone knows what this woman is like they won't think your a crap manager

Augme · 11-07-2020 9:44am

OP you need to decide what you want to achieve in these situations and what is your priority and how much work (and risk) you are willing to put in. If I was you I'd break down the various different options and have a good think about them.

1. Do I genuinely want to improve the staff member?
2. Do I just want to get rid of the problem?
3. How would I rank my priorities in terms of importance in this situation - the individual, the team, my line manager, the organisation, or myself (including family) will all need to be included.

They will be conflicting priorities probably when you think about the above but it is important. If I were you before deciding what to do I would figure out what my ultimate end goal is and then map of a couple of potential scenarios on how they can be achieved.

LegacyUser · 11-07-2020 11:32am

Thanks Augme - I need to have a think about that.

I started off 18 months ago and was definitely, definitely at #1 (maybe a bit naively), but now after my best efforts to improve her performance I am leaning more towards #2 - if it was a possibility, but I am not sure it is.

Maybe I need to return to #1 for one last spell of trying and then focus on #2.

The only consolation is from my reading of things the PO knows the individual is a problem (though I don't think they realise just how bad it is), which may help cover my side of things I hope.

AndrewJRenko · 11-07-2020 12:07pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Ahhh bless! Such innocence.

The only barrier to solving this issue is the people who keep saying 'ah sure nothing can be done'.

TrixIrl · 11-07-2020 6:31pm

Get on to your local employee relations department, they'll be the ones who have to deal with it once she inevitably lodges a Dignity at Work or WRC case etc.

They'll give you step by step, lodge and document EVERYTHING.

If you were in on a temp post or intend moving on in the next 2-3 years it might not be worth the hassle. But if you're there for the foreseeable then you need to deal with it or you'll haunt yourself over it.

11-07-2020 6:37pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Get advice from your manager and HR department. It may be that she really is untouchable due to political factors beyond your control.

Seen this before in a job I was in. Let your subordinate go as much as you can, her colleagues are probably aware of her "office deportment"

11-07-2020 6:41pm

TrixIrl wrote: »

Get on to your local employee relations department, they'll be the ones who have to deal with it once she inevitably lodges a Dignity at Work or WRC case etc.
.

Very Likely.

But in doing so, she will show her true flying colours.

Does she have more than one colleague on her team who would stick up for her and fight her corner? Well?;)

whampiri · 12-07-2020 9:26am

I went to pm the op but can't. I've dealt with this type of thing before, successfully. Pm me if you want/can and I'll gladly walk you through it.

Snow Garden · 12-07-2020 10:59am

whampiri wrote: »

I went to pm the op but can't. I've dealt with this type of thing before, successfully. Pm me if you want/can and I'll gladly walk you through it.

But did you deal with it successfully in the public sector? That's a completely different environment.

whampiri · 12-07-2020 1:25pm

Snow Garden wrote: »

But did you deal with it successfully in the public sector? That's a completely different environment.

Yes, in the public/civil service.

Managing very poor performance

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