Champions Cup 2020/2021 General Thread

Cookiemunster · 16-12-2020 11:18pm

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Could be a few free weekends during the six nations, plenty of time to reschedule the fixtures, it’s the will to do so by the people involved that will be lacking not the way to do so.

The GP have no free weekends. Outside of European weekends they're playing every single weekend until the end of the season.

Burkie1203 · 16-12-2020 11:35pm

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Could be a few free weekends during the six nations, plenty of time to reschedule the fixtures, it’s the will to do so by the people involved that will be lacking not the way to do so.

There isn't as far as I can see.

Digifriendly · 17-12-2020 7:33am

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Could be a few free weekends during the six nations, plenty of time to reschedule the fixtures, it’s the will to do so by the people involved that will be lacking not the way to do so.

What free weekends do you mean? Both sides shorn of their internationals when 6N is being played?

Buer · 17-12-2020 7:50am

sydthebeat wrote: »

ROG was of the opinion on OTB that Glasgow will have to give up a 28-0 result as well, as they technically have to forfeit due to Scottish gov rules

That would be incredibly harsh on them. If that came to pass, it would be incredibly harsh on the other teams in the pool too. It would mean Lyon are almost certain to qualify.

17-12-2020 12:43pm

20-20, 4 tries apiece for a 3-3 Match Points seems reasonable.

nc6000 · 17-12-2020 12:56pm

Deleted User wrote: »

20-20, 4 tries apiece for a 3-3 Match Points seems reasonable.

Not sure the other clubs would be happy with that - 3 points each would be a highly unlikely result to see and would screw up the table. It's near enough to the 4 points you'd get for a win.

Bridge93 · 17-12-2020 1:08pm

So after being part of that massive hissy fit to be included this season and have the format revamped to this rubbish, will we see Montpellier stick out a second team after one match?

irishbucsfan · 17-12-2020 1:12pm

Bridge93 wrote: »

So after being part of that massive hissy fit to be included this season and have the format revamped to this rubbish, will we see Montpellier stick out a second team after one match?

After one fairly brutal performance as well!

molloyjh · 17-12-2020 1:12pm

Exeter have 1 free weekend - 19th Feb.

Lyon and Toulouse have 3 free weekends - 05th Feb, 27th Feb & 13th Mar.

Glasgow are basically free from the start of February as it stands.

I think they might look to rearrange these fixtures to the weekend of the 8th/9th/10th January and move any league games from that date to the free windows in the league calendars. What they do if one or more can't make this happen will be interesting. But I'd imagine Glasgow, Lyon and Toulouse could make it happen. Exeter might struggle given that they have only 1 available weekend.

sydthebeat · 17-12-2020 1:14pm

Bridge93 wrote: »

So after being part of that massive hissy fit to be included this season and have the format revamped to this rubbish, will we see Montpellier stick out a second team after one match?

believe it or not the spread in the bookies narrowed from wasps -16 to wasps -11 after the team announcements...
-9 now !!

its not exactly wasps 1st either, though its more of a mix with them.

molloyjh · 17-12-2020 1:18pm

I don't think Montpellier really give that much of a damn about the tournament tbh. I think they are just more concerned with the revenues they get from it.

Cookiemunster · 17-12-2020 1:20pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Exeter have 1 free weekend - 19th Feb.

Lyon and Toulouse have 3 free weekends - 05th Feb, 27th Feb & 13th Mar.

Glasgow are basically free from the start of February as it stands.

I think they might look to rearrange these fixtures to the weekend of the 8th/9th/10th January and move any league games from that date to the free windows in the league calendars. What they do if one or more can't make this happen will be interesting. But I'd imagine Glasgow, Lyon and Toulouse could make it happen. Exeter might struggle given that they have only 1 available weekend.

The statement yesterday pretty much said that these games will not be played and that a committee will decide the results. According to ROG on OTB, all teams have been told that they will have a 5-0 match point defeat awarded against them if they can't fulfill a fixture.

molloyjh · 17-12-2020 1:24pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

The statement yesterday pretty much said that these games will not be played and that a committee will decide the results. According to ROG on OTB, all teams have been told that they will have a 5-0 match point defeat awarded against them if they can't fulfill a fixture.

That's incredibly harsh, especially on Glasgow who are effectively getting punished for fulfilling a fixture that led to not being able to fulfill another. Not that it really matters for them as they were going to get trounced in all their games anyway, but it's still harsh.

It's harsh on other sides in the pool too though as Toulouse get a TBP win over a side that could have beaten them. Lyon get a TBP win over a side that could (*chuckle*) have prevented the 4 tries being scored.

I'd say if they wanted to, Glasgow could make the case that they could fulfill the fixture given that they have no fixtures scheduled after the end of January. They could, in theory, reschedule a league game any time in the next 6 weeks.

awec · 17-12-2020 1:28pm

Would doubt the French / English clubs would have much interest in messing about with league scheduling to suit Europe.

irishbucsfan · 17-12-2020 1:30pm

awec wrote: »

Would doubt the French / English clubs would have much interest in messing about with league scheduling to suit Europe.

Especially given they’re quite likely going to have their own matches to reschedule this season

17-12-2020 1:33pm

nc6000 wrote: »

Not sure the other clubs would be happy with that - 3 points each would be a highly unlikely result to see and would screw up the table. It's near enough to the 4 points you'd get for a win.

agree - but given the 28-0 result against Exeter (the team that looks likely to been the root of the problem), the "max possible points to all others in group as a result" ideal seems reasonable imo.

awec · 17-12-2020 1:37pm

I think we're just going to have to accept that the competition is going to be wonky this season, and there will be teams do better / worse than you would expect due to off-field circumstances.

It's a bit nonsense but there's not much can be done about it.

Leinstertomas · 17-12-2020 8:52pm

awec wrote: »

I think we're just going to have to accept that the competition is going to be wonky this season, and there will be teams do better / worse than you would expect due to off-field circumstances.

It's a bit nonsense but there's not much can be done about it.

Exactly. Hopefully the knockout stages can be completed without too much disruption.
Lyon are set to top pool B with maximum points from playing 3 weakened sides and and having opponents unable to play. No way will the quarter final line up in anyway be accurate of who the best 8 in Europe are.

Buer · 17-12-2020 9:30pm

Bath and La Rochelle cancelled after a Scarlets player tests positive. 12 Bath players were close contacts.

Burkie1203 · 17-12-2020 9:47pm

Buer wrote: »

Bath and La Rochelle cancelled after a Scarlets player tests positive. 12 Bath players were close contacts.

This is turning into a shambles. Only option is to call games 0-0 unless a club is unable to play due to a big cluster. Then it has to be examined more closely.

molloyjh · 17-12-2020 9:58pm

Buer wrote: »

Bath and La Rochelle cancelled after a Scarlets player tests positive. 12 Bath players were close contacts.

Does that mean the Scarlets-Toulon game is off too?

thomond2006 · 17-12-2020 10:02pm

The tournament looks ruined.

ongarite · 17-12-2020 10:08pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

The tournament looks ruined.

Agree.
A positive test in team you played previous week potentially wipes out both teams.
With COVID rates in UK and France, the domestic leagues could be in big trouble too unless they are forced to play with academy, sub academy players to make a full match day squad.

Welsh teams badly affected with COVID. How many Pro14 games cancelled already?

Burkie1203 · 17-12-2020 10:15pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

The tournament looks ruined.

Wonder what way the TV is structured. BT cannot be too happy at losing games involving the English clubs (Exeter, Bath) especially. But its leaving huge gaps in schedules.

EPRC should never have given into the threats from France about the qualification.

Northern Ireland is going into "6 week hard lockdown " from December 26th so that could have major impact on Ulster now too (haven't seen specifics yet).

awec · 17-12-2020 10:18pm

It's really weird that only 12 Bath players were deemed close contacts. It is also very strange that the Scarlets game has not been called off yet.

awec · 17-12-2020 10:22pm

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Wonder what way the TV is structured. BT cannot be too happy at losing games involving the English clubs (Exeter, Bath) especially. But its leaving huge gaps in schedules.

EPRC should never have given into the threats from France about the qualification.

Northern Ireland is going into "6 week hard lockdown " from December 26th so that could have major impact on Ulster now too (haven't seen specifics yet).

Ulster definitely cannot play or train from 26th Dec -> 2nd Jan.

Unclear so far how the rest of the lockdown will affect sport.

Burkie1203 · 17-12-2020 10:28pm

awec wrote: »

Ulster definitely cannot play or train from 26th Dec -> 2nd Jan.

Unclear so far how the rest of the lockdown will affect sport.

2nd Jan or 2nd February?

If that's 2nd Feb it creates a massive issue for anyone with hopes of making the 6n squad.

Buer · 17-12-2020 10:29pm

To correct myself, the Bath statement noted a member of Scarlets Rugby tested positive, not necessarily a player. It may have been a member of their backroom team or management who broke guidelines and mingled with Bath after the game. Who knows?

Paul Weller · 17-12-2020 10:29pm

awec wrote: »

It's really weird that only 12 Bath players were deemed close contacts. It is also very strange that the Scarlets game has not been called off yet.

Toby Faletau left the field early, Joe Cokanasiga, Spencer and a few more didn't try a leg.. probably weren't close enough to any Scarlets player long enough to be considered a close contact

sydthebeat · 17-12-2020 10:37pm

Buer wrote: »

Bath and La Rochelle cancelled after a Scarlets player tests positive. 12 Bath players were close contacts.

really messed up and p!ss poor planning if players cant be tested to a satisfactory manner in 7 days to be in the clear...
yet they arranged the games in 2 week blocks..... with usually 7 days separation.....

swiwi_ · 18-12-2020 6:41am

I don’t follow the CC as closely as many people here. But the convoluted format + COVID = problematic. Not to mention the lack of atmosphere at matches.

Super Rugby went convoluted with its format and its a recipe for turning people off the tournament.

I’m already only half interested in the rest of the CC for this season when you see multiple cancelled games in week 2. I personally think the CC needs to be smaller, I’d say 16 teams with 4 pools of 4. You could be a retard and still come up with a simple to follow tournament out of 16 teams. It would also be elite, not the current system where very average teams qualify.

Former Former Former · 18-12-2020 7:33am

Two things don't make sense.

One Scarlets player tests positive - but TWELVE Bath players are considered close contacts??

And the Scarlets game is still going ahead tonight?!

A more cynical person could suggest that Bath just don't give a sh*t about the tournament having already lost their chances of progressing.

irishbucsfan · 18-12-2020 8:19am

swiwi_ wrote: »

I don’t follow the CC as closely as many people here. But the convoluted format + COVID = problematic. Not to mention the lack of atmosphere at matches.

Super Rugby went convoluted with its format and its a recipe for turning people off the tournament.

I’m already only half interested in the rest of the CC for this season when you see multiple cancelled games in week 2. I personally think the CC needs to be smaller, I’d say 16 teams with 4 pools of 4. You could be a retard and still come up with a simple to follow tournament out of 16 teams. It would also be elite, not the current system where very average teams qualify.

This format is a one-off though

They already reduced the number of teams from 24 to 20.

crisco10 · 18-12-2020 8:47am

I'm actually enjoying it this year, maybe after the snore-fest that was the Nations Cup. But yea, as mentioned previously this season's going to be a completely bizarre year because of COVID delays and cancellations.

But let's see what happens, the real disaster would be for some of the knockout games in Spring to be affected. Like imagine a 28-0 walkover for a semi final? or even worse a final!

swiwi_ · 18-12-2020 9:03am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

This format is a one-off though

They already reduced the number of teams from 24 to 20.

Looks to me like it’s 24 this year, no??

happytramp · 18-12-2020 9:12am

swiwi_ wrote: »

Looks to me like it’s 24 this year, no??

I think the main goal was to reduce the amount of games each team in the pool stages from 6 to 4.

sydthebeat · 18-12-2020 9:13am

swiwi_ wrote: »

Looks to me like it’s 24 this year, no??

Only for this covid year.

Next year is to go back to 2019 format AFAIK

bilston · 18-12-2020 9:28am

Going forward I'd go back to the 6 pools of 4 format and throw in an extra knockout round of 16...that way 4 3rd place sides would qualify for the the last 16 meaning there was jeopardy in virtually every pool match and no, or very very few, dead rubbers.

It won't happen because it would mean adding an extra game to the calendar, but personally I think it would make a much better competition. More competitive pool matches and 8 extra games of everything on the line cup rugby. It should also mean extra TV cash...unfortunately it's probably not the direction the French and English want to go.

UAEguy2020 · 18-12-2020 10:28am

Former Former Former wrote: »

Two things don't make sense.

One Scarlets player tests positive - but TWELVE Bath players are considered close contacts??

And the Scarlets game is still going ahead tonight?!

A more cynical person could suggest that Bath just don't give a sh*t about the tournament having already lost their chances of progressing.

The only reason Glasgow’s game was cancelled was because of the Scottish government’s covid regulations, Wales don’t have the same rules so their game can go ahead.

Buer · 18-12-2020 10:30am

Regarding the Scarlets, they've made 10 changes from the team that played last week. Multiple players are self isolating. It seems they simply had the coverage to be able to fulfill the fixture.

The cynic in me does think that Bath didn't believe it was worth their while and this season is a write off, preferring to focus on the GP.

Scarlets' selection has also been affected by one positive case in their weekly Covid-19 tests.

A small number of close contacts were identified among the squad and those players are self-isolating and were unavailable for selection.

Only Leigh Halfpenny, Steff Hughes, Dan Jones, Wyn Jones and Ryan Elias survive from the side that started at Bath.

irishbucsfan · 18-12-2020 10:44am

swiwi_ wrote: »

Looks to me like it’s 24 this year, no??

24 this year because there was a bunch of teams kicking off about not being able to fairly qualify for a 20 team tournament due to covid disruptions to the leagues last season.

It's normally 20 teams, 5 pools of 4. I don't think there's a major issue with that myself. Maybe it would be nice to have 8 teams qualify directly from 4 pools, but then you'd have to go through all the politics of how you reduce a competition between 3 leagues by 4 teams (IE which league gives up 2 spots).

irishbucsfan · 18-12-2020 10:50am

bilston wrote: »

Going forward I'd go back to the 6 pools of 4 format and throw in an extra knockout round of 16...that way 4 3rd place sides would qualify for the the last 16 meaning there was jeopardy in virtually every pool match and no, or very very few, dead rubbers.

It won't happen because it would mean adding an extra game to the calendar, but personally I think it would make a much better competition. More competitive pool matches and 8 extra games of everything on the line cup rugby. It should also mean extra TV cash...unfortunately it's probably not the direction the French and English want to go.

When it was 24 teams before there just wasn't enough good teams to fill all those pools, and the pools who got the weakest sides in their pools were effectively ending up with dead rubbers. Given the pools lead to seedings in the knockouts that was a bit of a problem. There was also the fact qualification wasn't meritocratic though so that might not be a problem without that.

I guess the main question is whether there are 24 "elite" teams in Europe to justify that size of a competition. I don't think there is. I'd probably prefer a 16 team competition with 5 teams from each league and the final spot going to the league of last season's winner, but that won't happen. I think the current structure (without the covid variation) is probably a decent middle ground.

awec · 18-12-2020 11:49am

The 20 teams is fine.

My biggest issue with the competition format now is that there is far too much benefit for the sheer luck of getting a favourable pool draw. Getting a tough pool draw is a double punishment.

They should change it so there is a draw after the pools, where any top 4 ranked team can get any bottom 4 ranked team. Still not perfect, but better than what we have.

aloooof · 18-12-2020 11:52am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

When it was 24 teams before there just wasn't enough good teams to fill all those pools, and the pools who got the weakest sides in their pools were effectively ending up with dead rubbers. Given the pools lead to seedings in the knockouts that was a bit of a problem. There was also the fact qualification wasn't meritocratic though so that might not be a problem without that.

Without getting ahead of myself, I wonder how likely it is that all league matches will completed this season? You could again be heading into a situation where qualification isn't meritocratic for next season's competition either. Hopefully not to the same extent tho.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I guess the main question is whether there are 24 "elite" teams in Europe to justify that size of a competition. I don't think there is. I'd probably prefer a 16 team competition with 5 teams from each league and the final spot going to the league of last season's winner, but that won't happen. I think the current structure (without the covid variation) is probably a decent middle ground.

So 4 teams of 4 in the groups? You'd end up having 48 matches to go from 16 to 8 teams, but it might make the final pool stages games a bit more competitive if all 2nd places qualify.

I'd agree tho that the 20 team, 5 groups pre-Covid format seems to be a nice middle ground.

irishbucsfan · 18-12-2020 12:47pm

awec wrote: »

The 20 teams is fine.

My biggest issue with the competition format now is that there is far too much benefit for the sheer luck of getting a favourable pool draw. Getting a tough pool draw is a double punishment.

They should change it so there is a draw after the pools, where any top 4 ranked team can get any bottom 4 ranked team. Still not perfect, but better than what we have.

I'm not really sure what I'd prefer. A draw for the knockouts reduces the importance of pool games because there'd be no seeding any more, and that'd lead to a lot of dead rubbers and even weakened teams in the pool stages.

I also really don't think there's that many very weak teams in the 20 team competition. The teams who finished bottom of the pools in 2018-19 were Leicester, Wasps, Lyon, Gloucester, Newcastle. They're not exactly pushovers.

pickarooney · 18-12-2020 2:01pm

awec wrote: »

It's really weird that only 12 Bath players were deemed close contacts. It is also very strange that the Scarlets game has not been called off yet.

The back three don't count

UAEguy2020 · 18-12-2020 2:04pm

The current format is pure ****e, A total crap shoot.

ongarite · 18-12-2020 2:42pm

Glasgow v Edinburgh interpro now cancelled.

AbusesToilets · 18-12-2020 3:57pm

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

The current format is pure ****e, A total crap shoot.

It should've been a straight knock out tournament, Round of 16 onwards.

Rigor Mortis · 18-12-2020 4:15pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

It should've been a straight knock out tournament, Round of 16 onwards.

That would have lost the unions a fortune in TV revenue

Champions Cup 2020/2021 General Thread

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