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Speed cameras in Ireland - a guide

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    #332
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #333
    ironclaw
    Registered Users Posts: 8,004 ✭✭✭ironclaw


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I'm not a law expert, but I'd imagine you'd be looking at Supreme Court level as you'd be challenging an Act and setting a precedent / case law. Deep pockets would be the word alright!

    I think the major issue would be points already issued under the scheme. Would they become invalid if the system in place was found to be flawed? No idea myself, thats for the Law forum!


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    #334
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #335
    Damien360
    Registered Users Posts: 6,329 ✭✭✭Damien360


    Ironclaw, you are being a little unfair to some posters in your long post.

    Iwannahurl has a point that very few people have got points for being just 5kmph or less away from the speed limit. The 5kmph is the stated possible total error. A simple enforced 5kmph leeway allowed would solve it in an instant.

    I do understand the process and calibrations but clogging up the courts with people arguing every single point is ludicrous. Ultimately the taxpayer will pay for this.

    I regularly travel over the limit on motorways and the older 100kmph roads which are now 80kmph. I still have no points but I will not be arguing 56 in a 50. 52 is a bit harsh and possibly worth arguing in the pub but I do not have the money for court. I am neither rich enough nor poor enough to get a lawyer, I am a taxpayer.


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    #336
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    ironclaw wrote: »
    With respect to everyone involved, its becoming increasingly obvious that there are people here who are interested, people who have good points to make good discussion and people here who have absolutely no technical understanding of the system, electronics and math in question. I'd kindly ask those without such knowledge to admit as such, and bow out as its frustrating for those of us that do.

    To join this debate, you actually have to understand (or at least accept those that do) the concepts of calibration, measurement inaccuracies, the math and science behind speed reading and the overall way it fits into Irish law. I, along with other posters I'm sure, have no issue explaining points and joining a decent debate, but I'm at the end of my tether on this thread.


    So would you kindly clarify the relevance of the Cosine Effect in the present context, and explain why it can not be "positive or negative".
    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    Cosine effect.
    pa990 wrote: »
    cosine effect can be positive or negative.


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    #337
    pa990
    Registered Users Posts: 3,884 ✭✭✭pa990


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    So would you kindly clarify the relevance of the Cosine Effect in the present context, and explain why it can not be "positive or negative".

    Go away

    You are trolling


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    #338
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Damien360 wrote: »
    Iwannahurl has a point that very few people have got points for being just 5kmph or less away from the speed limit. The 5kmph is the stated possible total error. A simple enforced 5kmph leeway allowed would solve it in an instant.


    The potential level of random error has been cited as +/- 3 kph more than once in this thread. According to Garda stats released last year, the enforcement tolerance is greater than that, because there were zero detections <=4 km/h.

    Where the 5 km/h total error seems to have come from is the officially recognised 3 km/h plus 2 km/h plucked out of nowhere.

    Since that extra 2 km/h is, in my opinion, just imaginary, the 5 km/h total error notion becomes a non-issue entirely, also in my opinion.


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    #339
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    pa990 wrote: »
    Go away

    You are trolling


    Nope, just contradicting you with fact. It'll take time, but you'll see the light eventually! :)


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    #340
    pa990
    Registered Users Posts: 3,884 ✭✭✭pa990


    I'm gonna take a self imposed break from this "discussion" , before I say something that the mods will give me a time out for.


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    #341
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #342
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Lardy wrote: »
    At about 6min 18sec into the video.

    I'd like to know why the former operator failed to check his equipment before he left his depot. Schoolboy error for someone who claims to have vast knowledge in security and maintenance. I'd take anything that guy is saying with a pinch of salt to be honest.


    Is that where the operator's screen is shown? Unfortunately I can't see it properly, because I haven't replaced my banjaxed graphics cards yet. Is it possible that the shot is for illustration purposes only?

    Good point re checking equipment. Presumably someone has to be the first to drive the van out of the depot on a given day, and the onus would be on that operator to check equipment beforehand. If GoSafe operators are waiting until they're on-site before checking equipment, that sounds like sloppy work practices and poor line management.


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    #343
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    pa990 wrote: »
    I'm gonna take a self imposed break from this "discussion" , before I say something that the mods will give me a time out for.
    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.



    And you won't attempt to deal with the alleged "positive or negative" Cosine Error before you go?


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    #344
    Lardy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 981 ✭✭✭Lardy


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Is that where the operator's screen is shown? Unfortunately I can't see it properly, because I haven't replaced my banjaxed graphics cards yet. Is it possible that the shot is for illustration purposes only?

    Good point re checking equipment. Presumably someone has to be the first to drive the van out of the depot on a given day, and the onus would be on that operator to check equipment beforehand. If GoSafe operators are waiting until they're on-site before checking equipment, that sounds like sloppy work practices and poor line management.

    That's the one.

    Every operator should check the equipment before leaving the depot. The vans run 24/7 365 days a year, so there wouldn't be any one operator in first.


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    #345
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Lardy wrote: »
    Every operator should check the equipment before leaving the depot. The vans run 24/7 365 days a year, so there wouldn't be any one operator in first.


    I'm not going to watch the Primetime report again, but I vaguely recall that the whistleblower referred to taking over the van from another operator, then finding the equipment to be unsatisfactory.

    Maybe each operator was responsible for checking the equipment, but nobody was responsible for actually replacing it.

    In any event, it sounds sloppy, and does not inspire confidence. If it was me in that van I would go mental, because I absolutely hate shoddy work.


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    #346
    Dord
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,817 ✭✭✭✭Dord


    One Garda van outside Guinness' on the quays earlier tonight, and another (diff markings) Garda van just past the bus garage on Conyngham Road heading outbound.


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    #347
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    pa990 wrote: »
    cosine effect can be positive or negative.
    ironclaw wrote: »
    To join this debate, you actually have to understand (or at least accept those that do) the concepts of calibration, measurement inaccuracies, the math and science behind speed reading and the overall way it fits into Irish law. I, along with other posters I'm sure, have no issue explaining points and joining a decent debate, but I'm at the end of my tether on this thread.



    It turns out that the OP acknowledged the reality of the Cosine Effect as early as post #9:
    ironclaw wrote: »
    The slip (cosine) effect works in your favor.

    So the Gardai will get a LOWER reading that your actually speed. So if they get a reading of above the speed limit your still speeding.

    ...

    With regards to multiple lanes, your taking a gamble challenging it. These systems are extremely advanced. If they said you were speeding you were speeding. The read out of distance to your car and the photo (If you argue the car beside was speeding) will rule out any discrepancies.

    I wouldn't fight it.



    So why are we still seeing misguided notions about "alignment error" in this "guide"?
    ironclaw wrote: »
    As pa990 said:
    • The system is only accurate to within 3km or 1.5% (As per specs)
    • The Gardai themselves admit it could be off by 2km/h

    I have no idea of the exact probability but error works both ways.

    Its equally likely ... that there is chance the system added or subtracted the error.

    ...

    For instance, we have a car with a calibrated speedo coupled with a GPS readout. Its incredibly accurate. However, at present, if I pass a misaligned van at precisely 50km/h in a 50km/h zone, there is a chance, I could be prosecuted for doing 55km/h (i.e. Worse machine error plus 2km/h alignment error)

    Thats not fair.


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    #348
    ironclaw
    Registered Users Posts: 8,004 ✭✭✭ironclaw


    Cosine Effect will always be in the motorists favour i.e. The machine will always read lower than the actually speed. Thats a given. Alignment error can refer to the cosine error AND in this specific case, the 22' angle the van MUST be set at. The van already compensates for cosine error IF it is correctly aligned. However IF NOT correctly aligned the cosine error will be incorrectly accounted for.

    DNA or DUI evidence would be inadmissible in court if the machine wasn't calibrated / set up as per procedure. The same is occurring here. We are allowing incorrect procedures to be admitted in court.

    However, two entirely separate and additional issues are:
    • Calibration
    • Inherent Machine Inaccuracy or Error

    So mathematically:

    Your Speed = Machine Reading - Cosine Effect +/- (Calibration Error) +/- (Machine Error)

    So, we know the cosine effect will be fairly negligible at small angles AND if the machine is set up PERFECTLY. However, the machine itself is only accurate to +/3 km/h and frankly if calibration isn't done then you may as well be guessing.

    Iwannahurl, I don't care what AGS have said the detection level they gave are. They are not independently audited and they are conducted with the very machinery were are debating here. Imagine I measured your house with a ruler I made myself. We'd quickly disagree over the size. I have no reason to doubt that the majority of people are pulled for going 'well over' the limit but that isn't my point. My point is the system, at present, cannot be challenged in open court. And that, in a democracy, is wrong.


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    #349
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    ironclaw wrote: »
    Alignment error can refer to the cosine error AND in this specific case, the 22' angle the van MUST be set at. The van already compensates for cosine error IF it is correctly aligned. However IF NOT correctly aligned the cosine error will be incorrectly accounted for.


    Are you claiming that, if the already Cosine-adjusted speed camera is not correctly aligned, the speed reading will be an overestimate by as much as 2 km/h?


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    #350
    ironclaw
    Registered Users Posts: 8,004 ✭✭✭ironclaw


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    What is the "alignment error" you referred to earlier?

    Why would such "alignment error" be added?

    If you set up the van correctly at 22', the cosine effect is negligible (There are other factors that can induce cosine effect) as the machine will compensate for it.

    If you don't set up the van correctly, the cosine effect will still be accounted for but will be incorrect as the van thinks its set up correctly but is not.

    That, in a nutshell, is alignment error.

    In both these cases, it should be in the motorists favour. But once again, let me stress, I'm not arguing cosine error. I'm arguing that incomplete, bodge jog work practises are permissible in open court with no method of redress in addition to no challenge possible of equipment or operator accuracy.


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    #351
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    ironclaw wrote: »
    In both these cases, it should be in the motorists favour. But once again, let me stress, I'm not arguing cosine error.


    What are you saying here then?
    ironclaw wrote: »
    at present, if I pass a misaligned van at precisely 50km/h in a 50km/h zone, there is a chance, I could be prosecuted for doing 55km/h (i.e. Worse machine error plus 2km/h alignment error)


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    #352
    ironclaw
    Registered Users Posts: 8,004 ✭✭✭ironclaw


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    What are you saying here then?

    55km/h =

    50km/h (My true speed)
    + 0km/h Cosine Error (Assume van is perfect)
    + 3km/h (Max Machine Error in normal sceanrios)
    + 2km/h (or whatever calibration error - Machine has drifted out)

    If your trying to prove that I made a typo or something, fair play. Perhaps in that quote I misplaced the words 'alignment error' but what do I care. Moving on, the converse could be true, but the net effect is the same. I can still be issued a ticket as in the eyes and to the letter of the law I was 'speeding' (I know, AGS apparently didn't give tickets, blah blah blah...)

    50km/h (My true speed)
    - 1km/h Cosine Error (Assume van is perfect)
    + 3km/h (Max Machine Error)
    + 0km/h (Calibration Error)

    = 52km/h

    Or:

    50km/h (My true speed)
    - 1km/h Cosine Error (Assume van is perfect)
    - 3km/h (Max Machine Error)
    + 0km/h (Calibration Error)

    = 46km/h

    But once again, my point isn't anything to do with the above, its to do with the fact none of this can be challenged in court.


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    #353
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Here's one from the R347 on Sunday last. .. Note van is BEFORE the sign. .... thoughts ?

    Regarding the 22m these vans need for set up - are we saying that they need 22m of clear space behind the van ?... There was a max of 3m behind this van to a ditch/wall...

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #354
    ironclaw
    Registered Users Posts: 8,004 ✭✭✭ironclaw


    galwaytt wrote: »
    Here's one from the R347 on Sunday last. .. Note van is BEFORE the sign. .... thoughts ?

    Regarding the 22m these vans need for set up - are we saying that they need 22m of clear space behind the van ?... There was a max of 3m behind this van to a ditch/wall...

    It's a critical set up angle of 22 degrees not metres. The van can be placed anywhere as long as the set up procedure is correctly followed. See the video above.

    The signs don't necessarily mark the start and end of a zone, the merely indicate you are in or about to enter one.


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    #355
    Gosub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 874 ✭✭✭Gosub


    Quick question: will a traffic corps car always stop you for a chat if you were speeding or are they equipped with GATSO gear and can/will send you the bad news in the post? Assuming the Garda car was parked at the roadside.


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    #356
    Damien360
    Registered Users Posts: 6,329 ✭✭✭Damien360


    Gosub wrote: »
    Quick question: will a traffic corps car always stop you for a chat if you were speeding or are they equipped with GATSO gear and can/will send you the bad news in the post? Assuming the Garda car was parked at the roadside.

    If camera was on a tripod you can get the bad news in the post. If the car was parked with garda sitting inside then it is likely they were scanning reg plates for tax/insurance. They seem to sit just on the approach to roundabouts for this. If they were in their own gatso van, expect a fine.


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    #357
    Gosub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 874 ✭✭✭Gosub


    Damien360 wrote: »
    If camera was on a tripod you can get the bad news in the post. If the car was parked with garda sitting inside then it is likely they were scanning reg plates for tax/insurance. They seem to sit just on the approach to roundabouts for this. If they were in their own gatso van, expect a fine.
    He was sitting on the grass at the side of a roundabout. I passed a slow moving learner truck coming down to the roundabout .The truck was doing about 30 in an 80KPH zone. I'm not sure what speed I hit during the pass. I was too busy watching for the unexpected while passing. Another car followed me through, but he went the opposite direction at the roundabout. If I went over 80KPH, it wouldn't have been by much and I would have been well under on approach to the roundabout, obviously.


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    #358
    ironclaw
    Registered Users Posts: 8,004 ✭✭✭ironclaw


    Gosub wrote: »
    Quick question: will a traffic corps car always stop you for a chat if you were speeding or are they equipped with GATSO gear and can/will send you the bad news in the post? Assuming the Garda car was parked at the roadside.

    Your fine. Don't worry. No static gear exists in Garda Traffic Corp cars.


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    #359
    bobbysands81
    Registered Users Posts: 7,200 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    On N25 coming out of Cork about 20:15 and had probably 115kph on clock when I came round corner and saw speed camera van in the distance. Jammed on and was below 100kph very quickly. Tried to measure distance on speedometer from when I finished breaking to when I passed the van and distance was a shade over 500 metres, am I likely to get a letter?


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    #360
    gman2k
    Registered Users Posts: 4,076 ✭✭✭gman2k


    bobbysands81 wrote: »
    On N25 coming out of Cork about 20:15 and had probably 115kph on clock when I came round corner and saw speed camera van in the distance. Jammed on and was below 100kph very quickly. Tried to measure distance on speedometer from when I finished breaking to when I passed the van and distance was a shade over 500 metres, am I likely to get a letter?

    No, the speed is registered very close to the van, within 50m afaik.


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    #361
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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