Crypto tax situation - Read post 1 for thread banned users

Pdoghue · 03-03-2021 11:22am

Hellotonever wrote: »

I have stated about twenty times now I would have gladly paid taxes in Ireland if the rates were sensible like the UK's. I am forced to take my assets with me due to the oppressive (they call it progressive) rates in Ireland.

LOL... what a hero!

2ndcoming · 03-03-2021 11:25am

Hellotonever wrote: »

I have stated about twenty times now I would have gladly paid taxes in Ireland if the rates were sensible like the UK's. I am forced to take my assets with me due to the oppressive (they call it progressive) rates in Ireland.

Lets be real here. Revenue is out there to try and catch you out. Revenue is not your friend. Its a flytrap.

Yeah, it just sounds like you're a dreamer at this point. Personally I'd like to pay the Monaco rate but I think we all know it doesn't work like that.

And yeah, Revenue are out to catch people who commit tax evasion, shocker that.

jobless · 03-03-2021 11:26am

Pdoghue wrote: »

LOL... what a hero!

he's not wrong though is he

Mellor · 03-03-2021 11:27am

Hellotonever wrote: »

I never touched fiat at all.

You never invested fiat to begin with? Huh?

Is there some reason why you can answer when you moved? Seems odd to keep dodging that question.
Would help other considering a tax move.

Pdoghue · 03-03-2021 11:36am

jobless wrote: »

he's not wrong though is he

Read again what he said, slowly maybe, and come back to and explain to me where he's not wrong.

Hellotonever · 03-03-2021 11:43am

There are people here who exhibit the crab-in-the-bucket mentality that ails that country. When one man gets rich and wants to keep getting rich and wants to not be f*cked by oppressive tax practices (established by well known pederasts like David Norris), I get called childish. I get put down.

Well this crab is out of bucket lads. This crab is on the beach sipping prosecco. I've won. And I'm extending my claw out for whoever wants to get out of the bucket. Its simple lads. Its 4chan + uniswap. Then you will never work again. But I digress, this is all ficitonal.

Mellor · 03-03-2021 11:47am

Hellotonever wrote: »

But I digress, this is all ficitonal.

We know

Rob2D · 03-03-2021 11:48am

Peregrinus wrote: »

We are in a thread about the tax treatment of gains from speculating in crytpocurrency. Did you think it was going to be all music, dancing and young wans giving you the eye?

Well, yes. And Lambo's. Preferrably on a beach somewhere far away from the revenue. I thought we had established this??

Hellotonever · 03-03-2021 11:59am

2ndcoming wrote: »

Yeah, it just sounds like you're a dreamer at this point. Personally I'd like to pay the Monaco rate but I think we all know it doesn't work like that.

And yeah, Revenue are out to catch people who commit tax evasion, shocker that.

Here it is like this.

If you never did your taxes you don't exist for them.
They still get the taxes you lose from your paycheck or elsewhere but they will never contact you or anything.

If you - for the first time - file your taxes they will start moving and probably demand that you send them everything for the last 10 years and they will never stop bothering you and expect you to submit your sh*t on time.

03-03-2021 12:10pm

Hellotonever wrote: »

Here it is like this.

If you never did your taxes you don't exist for them.
They still get the taxes you lose from your paycheck or elsewhere but they will never contact you or anything.

If you - for the first time - file your taxes they will start moving and probably demand that you send them everything for the last 10 years and they will never stop bothering you and expect you to submit your sh*t on time.

You then have unexplained wealth which banks and sellers of high value goods are required to report to the relevant authorities under money laundering legislation.

In Ireland, Revenue are one of the relevant authorities. Portugal will also have their equivalent as they are subject to the same EU Money Laundering Directive.

How good they are at doing it is another story.

2ndcoming · 03-03-2021 12:12pm

You are looking at all of this ar5eways tbh.

If you have an income you will have a tax liability. That is in the terms and conditions of living in 99% of the countries on earth.

If you hide it you may get away with it for some time, yes. But you will get caught out at some point more than likely and they will come down on you like a brick sh1thouse. And the whole time you're getting away with it you have to watch where you keep your money to avoid DIRT, you can't buy property to avoid coming up on the system, you can't lease property for the same reason, etc, etc.

There are multiple high powered accountancy firms in Dublin who we have all heard of who exist primarily to minimise the amount of taxes wealthy people pay, legally. This is a far safer approach, in fact you'd go so far as to say it's the way the game is played. You want to play your own game, which generally does not end well.

Hellotonever · 03-03-2021 12:16pm

Deleted User wrote: »

You then have unexplained wealth which banks and sellers of high value goods are required to report to the relevant authorities under money laundering legislation.

In Ireland, Revenue are one of the relevant authorities. Portugal will also have their equivalent as they are subject to the same EU Money Laundering Directive.

How good they are at doing it is another story.

2ndcoming wrote: »

You are looking at all of this ar5eways tbh.

If you have an income you will have a tax liability. That is in the terms and conditions of living in 99% of the countries on earth.

If you hide it you may get away with it for some time, yes. But you will get caught out at some point more than likely and they will come down on you like a brick sh1thouse. And the whole time you're getting away with it you have to watch where you keep your money to avoid DIRT, you can't buy property to avoid coming up on the system, you can't lease property for the same reason, etc, etc.

There are multiple high powered accountancy firms in Dublin who we have all heard of who exist primarily to minimise the amount of taxes wealthy people pay, legally. This is a far safer approach, in fact you'd go so far as to say it's the way the game is played. You want to play your own game, which generally does not end well.

Sigh. You dont get it. Thats not even what I was saying. You will never get it. I will go back once my pedicure is done.

03-03-2021 12:30pm

Oh I'm certain this is fantasy.

Regardless, this thread should prove useful and educational to those that need to be informed so I don't see the dialogue over the previous pages as being pointless!

Mellor · 03-03-2021 12:40pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Oh I'm certain this is fantasy.

Anone that believes this spoofer needs their head checked.

jobless · 03-03-2021 12:43pm

one way to prove it, picture from a beach with a note saying hello to boards.ie

Mellor · 03-03-2021 12:54pm

jobless wrote: »

one way to prove it, picture from a beach with a note saying hello to boards.ie

Any one can go to the beach

Del Griffith · 03-03-2021 1:43pm

bosco12345 wrote: »

These posts have been quite informative. As someone who has joined he crypto game about 3 weeks ago and has invested about €1300, I think il wait until I make some decent money before declaring. Hypothetically speaking, if i made, let's say €1000 profit, what are the chances of been flagged if I withdraw small amounts to my bank account (lets say 100 euro every week)

You'd be under the threshold and no tax would be liable.

relax carry on · 03-03-2021 1:48pm

For the love of god's lads, could someone put something in the opening post about tax evasion? The amount of how can I get away without declaring, how will they know etc posts is getting silly. If you are lucky enough to actually have a profit which will generate a tax liability then woohoo, you've actually got some profit that you didn't have before you started. Well done, be a grown up and pay your taxes. You don't have to like it. Who in their right mind does. The quarterly publications list which is fraction of those Revenue interventions which resulted in additional tax, interest and penalties being collected, is full of those who thought how can I get away with/how would they know. If you wish to do more than grumble about tax then contact the department of finance and multiple politicians to alter the rate of CGT or get some special rules for Cryptocurrency.

scwazrh · 03-03-2021 2:09pm

If you dealing with crypto in large regular amounts like a previous poster has mentioned would it not be classed as a trading activity and be better done through a company? 12.5% corporation tax would then apply ?

Bob24 · 03-03-2021 2:46pm

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

This is a crypto forum for gods sake

anyone can prove their crypto net worth by simply saying I will move this specific amount (eg 123.456789 BTC) between addresses X hours from now at lets say 17:00 UTC

and then proof be right there on blockchain for ever and ever for whole world to see

As many of us, I am taking the poster’s story with a huge pinch of salt.

But being real, if I was sitting on hundreds or thousands of bitcoins I wouldn’t bother doing the above just because someone on the internet doesn’t believe me. I’d just move on.

Both because life is too short to bother with this stuff and for privacy reasons (I don’t think publicly associating a Bitcoin address with large holdings to an online ID is a great idea).

Rob2D · 03-03-2021 2:56pm

What if one was to cash out in England???? Since they have a more appealing rate.

jobless · 03-03-2021 3:03pm

Rob2D wrote: »

What if one was to cash out in England???? Since they have a more appealing rate.

yeah but you would need to be there 3 years before doing so

Rob2D · 03-03-2021 3:06pm

jobless wrote: »

yeah but you would need to be there 3 years before doing so

But what if I were a British citizen with a UK bank account and all that???

relax carry on · 03-03-2021 3:08pm

Rob2D wrote: »

But what if I were a British citizen with a UK bank account and all that???

Where are you tax resident and domiciled?

Rob2D · 03-03-2021 3:27pm

relax carry on wrote: »

Where are you tax resident and domiciled?

Here. Unless I arrange different. But that whole 3 or 5 year thing would still apply wouldn't it? Damn.

douglashyde · 03-03-2021 3:30pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/denis-o-brien-saves-63m-in-tax-stratagem-1.343993

< At certain point, changing tax residency can be beneficial and long term isn't not something people should rule out. CGT rate in this country is a joke yet we protest about water charges. Vote with your feet if it makes financial sense.

Not been active in this thread but I have read a chunk of it and a couple of things I wanted to point out (not financial advise, don't trust strangers on the internet):

- Something I've seen mentioned is writing off loses vs. gains. But this has to be within similar asset classes, you can not write off say losses for your gaff against BTC gains.

- Coinbase and other financial institutions operate under a thing called Common Reporting Standard, basically (in theory) agreeing to share your information across tax jurisdictions. << how active Irish Revenue is to do remains very unclear. I'd be keen to hear if they've ever gone after someone using an exchange's information to audit them or further still, proactively finding evasion.

olestoepoke · 03-03-2021 3:43pm

Rob2D wrote: »

Here. Unless I arrange different. But that whole 3 or 5 year thing would still apply wouldn't it? Damn.

You'll need to abandon your domicile of birth (Ireland) and declare a new domicile of choice and prove that you have cut all ties with your old abandoned domicile. A difficult thing to do as you'll need to prove to revenue that you have no intention of ever moving back to Ireland. Legislation on this is scarce and most cases are determined using case law and the evidence from the individuals circumstances. You'd need to sell your house, close all bank accounts, club memberships and anything that ties you to Ireland. Even planning to be buried here can go against you. Not saying you can never visit Ireland again but the onus is on you to prove that your intentions are true and not a sham to avoid tax.

Hellotonever · 03-03-2021 4:04pm

olestoepoke wrote: »

You'll need to abandon your domicile of birth (Ireland) and declare a new domicile of choice and prove that you have cut all ties with your old abandoned domicile. A difficult thing to do as you'll need to prove to revenue that you have no intention of ever moving back to Ireland. Legislation on this is scarce and most cases are determined using case law and the evidence from the individuals circumstances. You'd need to sell your house, close all bank accounts, club memberships and anything that ties you to Ireland. Even planning to be buried here can go against you. Not saying you can never visit Ireland again but the onus is on you to prove that your intentions are true and not a sham to avoid tax.

Dont spread fear and disinformation. Tax residency in Portugal is 183 consecutive days. Thats half a year. The other half? Doesn't matter where you f*ck off to. You can come back to Ireland if you want, as long as you don't pass any residency tests.

Crabs in a bucket the lot of you. Discouraging people from being smart with their assets.

chalky_ie · 03-03-2021 4:05pm

Isn't each trade that produces profit a taxable event? i.e. this story of 8 figures already involves copious amounts of tax evasion from the very start. I don't see how just moving to another country solves the issue, unless tax was paid on everything up until the point of moving.

olestoepoke · 03-03-2021 4:13pm

Hellotonever wrote: »

Dont spread fear and disinformation. Tax residency in Portugal is 183 consecutive days. Thats half a year. The other half? Doesn't matter where you f*ck off to. You can come back to Ireland if you want, as long as you don't pass any residency tests.

Crabs in a bucket the lot of you. Discouraging people from being smart with their assets.

Ok thanks for that I'll just take my degree off the wall and chuck it in the bin, worthless. I'm curious what part of my post is 'disinformation'? What part is inaccurate or untrue?

chalky_ie · 03-03-2021 4:22pm

Hellotonever wrote: »

Dont spread fear and disinformation. Tax residency in Portugal is 183 consecutive days. Thats half a year. The other half? Doesn't matter where you f*ck off to. You can come back to Ireland if you want, as long as you don't pass any residency tests.

Crabs in a bucket the lot of you. Discouraging people from being smart with their assets.

If any of this is true, you can talk about the crap tax system all you like, but at the end of the day, you're just greedy. You have 10m+ and don't want to participate in society in Ireland because you'd lose some of it to tax.

For most of us paying all our taxes has a far bigger impact on our lives, proportionately, than it would for you; nobody likes it, but it helps to make our country a pretty good place to live(even if there is some mismanagement of it).

As a supposed 'poor' person who has made this level of money, you'd think you would be happy with the ridiculous wealth you now have, and that some of it may go back into the community you came from when paying your taxes. Instead, you just boast about how you've legged it from the country that you grew up in(availing of all the services our taxes pay for), and call everyone who questions it a begrudger.

Hellotonever · 03-03-2021 4:23pm

olestoepoke wrote: »

Ok thanks for that I'll just take my degree off the wall and chuck it in the bin, worthless. I'm curious what part of my post is 'disinformation'? What part is inaccurate or untrue?

You know what you’re doing. Youre talking about exile and disavowment. In reality you’ll be going on a 6 month holiday to Portugal then coming back to Ireland. Its not an exodus. Its an extended holiday.

Hellotonever · 03-03-2021 4:26pm

conor-w wrote: »

If any of this is true, you can talk about the crap tax system all you like, but at the end of the day, you're just greedy. You have 10m+ and don't want to participate in society in Ireland because you'd lose some of it to tax.

For most of us paying all our taxes has a far bigger impact on our lives, proportionately, than it would for you; nobody likes it, but it helps to make our country a pretty good place to live(even if there is some mismanagement of it).

As a supposed 'poor' person who has made this level of money, you'd think you would be happy with the ridiculous wealth you now have, and that some of it may go back into the community you came from when paying your taxes. Instead, you just boast about how you've legged it from the country that you grew up in(availing of all the services our taxes pay for), and call everyone who questions it a begrudger.

Pal if you have no issue with how tax money is being spent then by all means give everything you have to FF/FG. Anyone smart (greedy as you call it) will know not to give anything to sycophants that jack up the housing market. Im not the problem. The government is.

olestoepoke · 03-03-2021 4:31pm

Hellotonever wrote: »

You know what you’re doing. Youre talking about exile and disavowment. In reality you’ll be going on a 6 month holiday to Portugal then coming back to Ireland. Its not an exodus. Its an extended holiday.

The poster was asking about how to avoid the 3 year residency rule. If you are domiciled in Ireland and tax resident your are liable for all Irish income and worldwide gains. The poster asked about being a UK citizen and then replied that no he was and Irish citizen to which I provided factual information related to how to change your domicile of birth to a domicile of choice. So again where in my post was the what you called 'disinformation'?

chalky_ie · 03-03-2021 4:33pm

Hellotonever wrote: »

Pal if you have no issue with how tax money is being spent then by all means give everything you have to FF/FG. Anyone smart (greedy as you call it) will know not to give anything to sycophants that jack up the housing market. Im not the problem. The government is.

Outright evading tax as a multi millionaire isn't being 'smart', it's greed. Calling it smart is a justification, you are complaining about the big bad politicians and others ruining the country, while actively participating in illegal activities that have a negative impact on the country.

relax carry on · 03-03-2021 4:40pm

For those concerned about actually discovering more about what if any tax liabilities/exposure you may have, please don't follow the advice of a Walter Mitty type character on an online forum. Please engage with professionals if you are in serious money territory and/or educate yourself on CGT which will most likely apply to your taxable activity.

chalky_ie · 03-03-2021 4:55pm

It must take a certain type of oddball to invent these scenarios on the internet.

False Prophet · 03-03-2021 5:50pm

No one is asking for anything illegal just different options.

To summarize:

One option is pay the 33% tax in Ireland by submitting in your yearly tax returns as a normal person. Makes sense if you have under 250K in profits or want to get yours hands on profits

One option is go to Portugal/Singapore etc for 3 years (well ~half of every year) instead. Makes sense if you have over 250K in profits depending on family/job etc. Risk of course is that you can only sell after 3 years at which point crypto value could be worse and you might have to stay for say 5 years etc. And i guess during that time also risk the country you move to changes law.

Correct?

douglashyde · 03-03-2021 6:23pm

False Prophet wrote: »

No one is asking for anything illegal just different options.

To summarize:

One option is pay the 33% tax in Ireland by submitting in your yearly tax returns as a normal person. Makes sense if you have under 250K in profits or want to get yours hands on profits

One option is go to Portugal/Singapore etc for 3 years (well ~half of every year) instead. Makes sense if you have over 250K in profits depending on family/job etc. Risk of course is that you can only sell after 3 years at which point crypto value could be worse and you might have to stay for say 5 years etc. And i guess during that time also risk the country you move to changes law.

Correct?

The three year rule confuses me...

Revenue.ie states that:

Tax and tax credits for non-residents

If you are non-resident your ordinary residency and domicile will affect how you are taxed.

Ordinarily resident and domiciled in Ireland
You might be non-resident, ordinarily resident and domiciled in Ireland for a tax year. In this case you will pay Irish tax on your worldwide income except:

- your foreign income from a trade, profession or employment performed outside of Ireland

your foreign investment income if it is less than €3,810.

your foreign income from a trade, profession or employment performed outside of Ireland
<< what does this mean / would a Crypto trade not be classified here?

Rob2D · 03-03-2021 6:27pm

olestoepoke wrote: »

You'll need to abandon your domicile of birth (Ireland)

Well my domicile of birth is the UK! (London). And I can get a British Passport. But as you say, I'm a tax resident here.

douglashyde wrote: »

- your foreign income from a trade, profession or employment performed outside of Ireland

your foreign investment income if it is less than €3,810.
[/I]

your foreign income from a trade, profession or employment performed outside of Ireland
<< what does this mean / would a Crypto trade not be classified here?

Very interesting! All my trades were done in Melbourne where my broker is and in AUS dollars. This adds a new twist.

False Prophet · 03-03-2021 6:41pm

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Not a tax lawyer (theres probably a forum here) but option 2 is not that simple, once again you really want to make sure you have upped and left and have rents abroad/flight receipts etc ready, as once again when it comes to Revenue you are guilty until prove yourself guilty, might be hard to prove you are gone if someone in your family remains in the house and therese electricity etc flowing in.

Well yes i persume you would have to leave the country. Then its just a matter of showing your flight tickets. revenue would be able to check anyway when you entered country again. also as living in other country you would have bills etc in the other country. in short i dont see that as an issue. dunno about if own your own house, (pure guess) if no-one lives in it you should be fine as no income.

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

And theres a bigger problem, how many banks would not raise eyebrows at a "non local" (lets say you go portugal and open an account there) having large amounts arriving in their account, all countries have all sorts of laws and their consumer protection (aka chance of you being swindled by the bank itself) might be weak

As i understand it would be 3 years in other country before you can cash out, so the bank would have your account for 3 years anyway before then as you could open local bank account when you arrive in the country. Also i presume the tax event occurs at cash out time. so if you change your crypto to cash in the exchange, you could just report it in your Portugal end of year tax in year 3. then just use any of the crypto cards to spend it as you wish or transfer to local bank. Unless EU make it illegal to own crypto, i don't see banks caring as long as you can prove the money isn't from criminal means

olestoepoke · 03-03-2021 6:47pm

Lads a trade as in a professional trade (plumber, carpenter etc)not trading crypto

olestoepoke · 03-03-2021 6:56pm

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Not a tax lawyer (theres probably a forum here) but option 2 is not that simple, once again you really want to make sure you have upped and left and have rents abroad/flight receipts etc ready, as once again when it comes to Revenue you are guilty until prove yourself guilty, might be hard to prove you are gone if someone in your family remains in the house and therese electricity etc flowing in.

This was what I alluded to earlier before our 'Pal' accused me of misinformation. If you wanted make the move and cash your crypto in earlier than the required 3 years to lose your residency in Ireland you can abandon your Irish domicile for a a domicile of choice but it is notoriously difficult to do and requires a complete cut of ties and sale of all assets in Ireland. Waiting three years to cash your crypto is a dangerous game given its volatility, now you could be lucky and your bag appreciates but you could also be wiped out literally over night.

kippy · 03-03-2021 6:57pm

Hellotonever wrote: »

Pal if you have no issue with how tax money is being spent then by all means give everything you have to FF/FG. Anyone smart (greedy as you call it) will know not to give anything to sycophants that jack up the housing market. Im not the problem. The government is.

Look,
You did the right thing. If you don't agree with how your taxes are spent (educating/housing and providing the framework that has allowed you to prospoer) moving abroad was the correct move.

olestoepoke · 03-03-2021 7:02pm

kippy wrote: »

Look,
You did the right thing. If you don't agree with how your taxes are spent (educating/housing and providing the framework that has allowed you to prospoer) moving abroad was the correct move.

The politicians in Ireland have been fleecing us for decades. Just look at the 1bn spent on direct provision, private contractors, families made a fortune from it and all were historically FF and FG contributors. Some of the larger centres were owned by families who based their companies abroad so that their financial statements were out of reach. Why did they do this? So fair play to anyone that moves away with their gains, I know if I was in that position I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep.

donnaille · 03-03-2021 7:06pm

olestoepoke wrote: »

The politicians in Ireland have been fleecing us for decades. Just look at the 1bn spent on direct provision, private contractors, families made a fortune from it and all were historically FF and FG contributors. Some of the larger centres were owned by families who based their companies abroad so that their financial statements were out of reach. Why did they do this? So fair play to anyone that moves away with their gains, I know if I was in that position I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep.*

As long as you do it properly and all above board

kippy · 03-03-2021 7:08pm

olestoepoke wrote: »

The politicians in Ireland have been fleecing us for decades. Just look at the 1bn spent on direct provision, private contractors, families made a fortune from it and all were historically FF and FG contributors. Some of the larger centres were owned by families who based their companies abroad so that their financial statements were out of reach. Why did they do this? So fair play to anyone that moves away with their gains, I know if I was in that position I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep.

Do what the poster did then and move abroad - its the only thing within your control.
As I said, I at least the poster did something about something they didnt agree with.

-Things aren't perfect here - like they aren't in most of the world - but jesus things aren't beyong a joke either.

olestoepoke · 03-03-2021 7:09pm

kippy wrote: »

Do what the poster did then and move abroad - its the only thing within your control.
As I said, I at least the poster did something about something they didnt agree with.

You're making a very big assumption that we are all in a position to move abroad. A lot of the time it is not within our control due to personal circumstances, finances, elderly family, children etc.

kippy · 03-03-2021 7:14pm

olestoepoke wrote: »

You're making a very big assumption that we are all in a position to move abroad. A lot of the time it is not within our control due to personal circumstances, finances, elderly family, children etc.

I said in an earlier post this is ultimately a decision in your hands, a decision you can make. Unlike decisions around how tax is spent (generally).

I also said that those with more money have a lot of options available to them to protect that money.

Hellotonever · 03-03-2021 8:24pm

conor-w wrote: »

Outright evading tax as a multi millionaire isn't being 'smart', it's greed. Calling it smart is a justification, you are complaining about the big bad politicians and others ruining the country, while actively participating in illegal activities that have a negative impact on the country.

No idea what you're talking about mate. But this is the perfect example of the crab in the bucket mentality im talking about. Just look at the amount of people here fetishizing about getting taxed or taxing other people. Its surreal.

Mention that you're rich and mention that you'd rather not pay extortionate taxes and you are already compared to a criminal and a thief.

In the eyes of these people, you can't be a smart and pragmatic citizen. You can't possibly look after your own interest. No, you have to pay for the world's most expensive hospital. You have to pay 33% of everything.

I'll tell you what. This is why everyones getting the f*ck outta dodge when it comes to Ireland. Ultimately, whoever stays there is the loser. Money is going out and out to other places, and you're gonna be left to pick up the tab for FF/FG's incompetence.

Crypto tax situation - Read post 1 for thread banned users

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