Crypto tax situation - Read post 1 for thread banned users

Hellotonever

Peregrinus wrote: »

Gains on crypto are treated exactly the same as gains on any other assets, apart from privileged assets like your principal private residence. You haven't articulated any reason at all why crypto gains should get specially favourable treatment, and the notion that the government is "quite literally out to get you" if you're makign gains in crypto is difficult to reconcile with the fact that crypto investors are treated exactly the same as everyone else.

wow youre right... i should've just stayed there and paid millions in taxes...

Pal no amount of mental gymnastics is gonna remove the fundamental fact that if I stayed there, I would be less rich and possibly audited to death.

So I moved. Thats all there is.

relax carry on

Hellotonever wrote: »

Nah. If Ireland had more logical crypto tax laws I would've gladly stayed and paid millions in taxes. But too much is too much.

Im simply pointing out that Ireland is not a place to be a self made crypto millionaire. The Government is quite literally out to get you.

The government isn't out to get you. There isn't some special ruling for Cryptocurrency where the government sat down and figured out who's they could screw over those engaging in the taxable activity of Cryptocurrency all the while laughing manically. For the vast bulk of individuals it's just CGT and the normal 33% of tax that goes with it. Your issue seems to be with the rate of CGT in general which is fair enough. Lots of people have issues with the tax rates across various taxheads. The only way it changes is if enough people push the issue through the department of finance and politicians. Revenue can only collect the correct amount of tax due so if the CGT rate drops then that's all they can collect.

Pdoghue

Hellotonever wrote: »

Nah. If Ireland had more logical crypto tax laws I would've gladly stayed and paid millions in taxes. But too much is too much.

Im simply pointing out that Ireland is not a place to be a self made crypto millionaire. The Government is quite literally out to get you.

Can you explain what you mean by more logical crypto tax laws?

Peregrinus

Hellotonever wrote: »

wow youre right... i should've just stayed there and paid millions in taxes...

Pal no amount of mental gymnastics is gonna remove the fundamental fact that if I stayed there, I would be less rich and possibly audited to death.

So I moved. Thats all there is.

Which is fine. We all have the option of moving, and the rich have an incentive to do it for tax reasons. Tax exile is nothing new, and nothing unique to Ireland. Good luck to you.

Just drop the victim act. You're not being singled out, and the expectation that a fairy godmother should come along and magic up some special tax rules for you because you made your stash dealing in crypto (which is "made by literal mathematical geniuses"!!!!) looks a bit childish, which is probably not a look you want to be reaching for.

2ndcoming

As someone who previously worked in an Audit division in Revenue, I want to make it very clear that is really bad advice.

The more difficult you make it the more likely you are to be punished and the less likely they are to accommodate you. This is common sense, and it's also true.

That's not specific to crypto, but if you find yourself in an audit situation the best option is to co-operate fully.

Hellotonever

2ndcoming wrote: »

As someone who previously worked in an Audit division in Revenue, I want to make it very clear that is really bad advice.

The more difficult you make it the more likely you are to be punished and the less likely they are to accommodate you. This is common sense, and it's also true.

Can you confirm that filing tax returns is what triggers audits?

Hellotonever

Peregrinus wrote: »

Which is fine. We all have the option of moving, and the rich have an incentive to do it for tax reasons. Tax exile is nothing new, and nothing unique to Ireland. Good luck to you.

Just drop the victim act. You're not being singled out, and the expectation that a fairy godmother should come along and magic up some special tax rules for you because you made your stash dealing in crypto (which is "made by literal mathematical geniuses"!!!!) looks a bit childish, which is probably not a look you want to be reaching for.

Yikes. Pal just across the border in the UK you'll find tax laws that Ireland SHOULD have.

I wonder why anyone would fantasize about someone paying more taxes. Then call them childish for not willingly giving up millions to a corrupt and incompetent government.

Heres the fact of the matter pal. Ireland's tax laws are horrible. The United Kingdom is a model of how crypto tax laws should be. But between going to the UK and paying millions or going to Portugal and paying a million, I chose the cheapest option.

2ndcoming

Not filing them is a bigger red flag. Filing them late. Being caught leaving stuff out in the past. All of these things make people more likely to be selected, but something like 10% are just randomly selected anyway, so anyone can be audited.

I was surprised myself at the amount of people who were in big trouble who had all the red flags sticking up before they were found out. You'd think if you were trying to get away with it you would at least be cute. In general, the opposite was true.

relax carry on

Hellotonever wrote: »

Can you confirm that filing tax returns is what triggers audits?

Oh dear. Please have a read of the first few chapters of the code of practice for Revenue Audits and other interventions to get some idea of what could trigger an intervention. The information is literally online. However that is only a very high level view. There is tonnes of information that can be interrogated to determine if a taxpayer requires an audit. And some are totally random. So no it's not just filing a return that can trigger an audit.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/self-assessment-and-self-employment/documents/code-of-practice-revenue-audit.pdf

Hellotonever

2ndcoming wrote: »

Not filing them is a bigger red flag. Filing them late. Being caught leaving stuff out in the past. All of these things make people more likely to be selected, but something like 10% are just randomly selected anyway, so anyone can be audited.

I was surprised myself at the amount of people who were in big trouble who had all the red flags sticking up before they were found out. You'd think if you were trying to get away with it you would at least be cute. In general, the opposite was true.

How can they audit something that was never filed?

I've talked to revenue workers. They dont seem to have a clue honestly. From what I gather if someone has never filed a tax return in their life, and has flown generally under the radar, theres practically zero chance they get audted because theres no document to scrutinize.

Do let me know.

Mellor

Hellotonever wrote: »

I cashed out before that. Paid my 33% then off I went.
What do you mean by losing crypto?

I’m aware you said you casked out before that and moved. I’m wondering when?
As in when did you cash out/move to Portugal? Pre Covid, last week etc.

Losing refers to lost money on crypto investments. If you invest any amount and lose it, it could offset gains.

As for “there’s nothing to audit”, I think you’d be mistaken there. They don’t need to see your transactions or even you returns. If they see you invested 100k they can “assume” you went 10x live the market, for example.

Hellotonever

Mellor wrote: »

I’m aware you said you casked out before that and moved. I’m wondering when?
As in when did you cash out/move to Portugal? Pre Covid, last week etc.

Losing refers to lost money on crypto investments. If you invest any amount and lose it, it could offset gains.

As for “there’s nothing to audit”, I think you’d be mistaken there. They don’t need to see your transactions or even you returns. If they see you invested 100k they can “assume” you went 10x live the market, for example.

As I stated before, unregulated exchanges and non-KYC fiat onramps. Actually I never touched fiat at all

Mellor

Hellotonever wrote: »

As I stated before, unregulated exchanges and non-KYC fiat onramps. Actually I never touched fiat at all

Your back account is regulated though.
Money leaving, initial investment was visible.
Any money that was came into your accounts, would have been visible.

Again, just curious about when you move to Portugal. No need to be specific.
Last week, 6 months ago. The more recent the less likely you got away with it I reckon.

2ndcoming

Hellotonever wrote: »

How can they audit something that was never filed?

I've talked to revenue workers. They dont seem to have a clue honestly. From what I gather if someone has never filed a tax return in their life, and has flown generally under the radar, theres practically zero chance they get audted because theres no document to scrutinize.

Do let me know.

It's extremely unlikely for anyone that actually has money. Financial institutions are going to make disclosures. The Garda will make disclosures. Unregistered people buying property or stocks, anything like this will put you right at the top of the list.

It's grand if you want to live like a hermit but if you engage in the financial world in any way without being registered for income tax you are putting yourself in for a world of pain. Ever notice when CAB hit gangsters Revenue do too. Max assessment, max interest & penalties, zero recourse.

Hellotonever

Mellor wrote: »

Your back account is regulated though.
Money leaving, initial investment was visible.
Any money that was came into your accounts, would have been visible.

Again, just curious about when you move to Portugal. No need to be specific.
Last week, 6 months ago. The more recent the less likely you got away with it I reckon.

I never touched fiat at all.

Hellotonever

2ndcoming wrote: »

It's extremely unlikely for anyone that actually has money. Financial institutions are going to make disclosures. The Garda will make disclosures. Unregistered people buying property or stocks, anything like this will put you right at the top of the list.

It's grand if you want to live like a hermit but if you engage in the financial world in any way without being registered for income tax you are putting yourself in for a world of pain. Ever notice when CAB hit gangsters Revenue do too. Max assessment, max interest & penalties, zero recourse.

That's exactly what I mean. Im already treated like a criminal. Thats why I left. No room for a poor man to move up in Ireland.

Cash out large lump sum = f*cked
Cash out small amounts = f*cked
Don't report anything = f*cked
Report and pay your tax = ****ed as they will see you as an easy target and take more
Go to a professional to assist you = pay taxes anyway just potentially lower amount

OR:

Just move to Portugal. It seems like a no brainer.

Hellotonever

2ndcoming wrote: »

It's extremely unlikely for anyone that actually has money. Financial institutions are going to make disclosures. The Garda will make disclosures. Unregistered people buying property or stocks, anything like this will put you right at the top of the list.

It's grand if you want to live like a hermit but if you engage in the financial world in any way without being registered for income tax you are putting yourself in for a world of pain. Ever notice when CAB hit gangsters Revenue do too. Max assessment, max interest & penalties, zero recourse.

Ive talked to financial institutions. They dont automatically report you to revenue. No financial institution does that. They'll give up documents if asked. But automatically? AFAIK no.

2ndcoming

Hellotonever wrote: »

That's exactly what I mean. Im already treated like a criminal. Thats why I left. No room for a poor man to move up in Ireland.

Cash out large lump sum = f*cked
Cash out small amounts = f*cked
Don't report anything = f*cked
Report and pay your tax = ****ed as they will see you as an easy target and take more
Go to a professional to assist you = pay taxes anyway just potentially lower amount

OR:

Just move to Portugal. It seems like a no brainer.

The bold bit is false, as I've explained. If you play ball so will they.
The bit below it is the sensible option for anyone worried they don't have the skills to go about making a declaration.

You're coming across like you just don't want to pay taxes full stop, which is like some loony libertarian stuff, I can't help you there but I will say it's highly likely to end badly. Two certainties in life...

jobless

Hellotonever wrote: »

That's exactly what I mean. Im already treated like a criminal. Thats why I left. No room for a poor man to move up in Ireland.

Cash out large lump sum = f*cked
Cash out small amounts = f*cked
Don't report anything = f*cked
Report and pay your tax = ****ed as they will see you as an easy target and take more
Go to a professional to assist you = pay taxes anyway just potentially lower amount

OR:

Just move to Portugal. It seems like a no brainer.

how long are you in Portugal?... just wondering how much time are you allowed to spend back in Ireland in the three years you are spending away to make sure you are not tax resident anymore?

Hellotonever

2ndcoming wrote: »

The bold bit is false, as I've explained. If you play ball so will they.
The bit below it is the sensible option for anyone worried they don't have the skills to go about making a declaration.

You're coming across like you just don't want to pay taxes full stop, which is like some loony libertarian stuff, I can't help you there but I will say it's highly likely to end badly. Two certainties in life...

I have stated about twenty times now I would have gladly paid taxes in Ireland if the rates were sensible like the UK's. I am forced to take my assets with me due to the oppressive (they call it progressive) rates in Ireland.

Lets be real here. Revenue is out there to try and catch you out. Revenue is not your friend. Its a flytrap.

Pdoghue

Hellotonever wrote: »

I have stated about twenty times now I would have gladly paid taxes in Ireland if the rates were sensible like the UK's. I am forced to take my assets with me due to the oppressive (they call it progressive) rates in Ireland.

LOL... what a hero!

2ndcoming

Hellotonever wrote: »

I have stated about twenty times now I would have gladly paid taxes in Ireland if the rates were sensible like the UK's. I am forced to take my assets with me due to the oppressive (they call it progressive) rates in Ireland.

Lets be real here. Revenue is out there to try and catch you out. Revenue is not your friend. Its a flytrap.

Yeah, it just sounds like you're a dreamer at this point. Personally I'd like to pay the Monaco rate but I think we all know it doesn't work like that.

And yeah, Revenue are out to catch people who commit tax evasion, shocker that.

jobless

Pdoghue wrote: »

LOL... what a hero!

he's not wrong though is he

Mellor

Hellotonever wrote: »

I never touched fiat at all.

You never invested fiat to begin with? Huh?

Is there some reason why you can answer when you moved? Seems odd to keep dodging that question.
Would help other considering a tax move.

Pdoghue

jobless wrote: »

he's not wrong though is he

Read again what he said, slowly maybe, and come back to and explain to me where he's not wrong.

Hellotonever

There are people here who exhibit the crab-in-the-bucket mentality that ails that country. When one man gets rich and wants to keep getting rich and wants to not be f*cked by oppressive tax practices (established by well known pederasts like David Norris), I get called childish. I get put down.

Well this crab is out of bucket lads. This crab is on the beach sipping prosecco. I've won. And I'm extending my claw out for whoever wants to get out of the bucket. Its simple lads. Its 4chan + uniswap. Then you will never work again. But I digress, this is all ficitonal.

Mellor

Hellotonever wrote: »

But I digress, this is all ficitonal.

We know

Rob2D

Peregrinus wrote: »

We are in a thread about the tax treatment of gains from speculating in crytpocurrency. Did you think it was going to be all music, dancing and young wans giving you the eye?

Well, yes. And Lambo's. Preferrably on a beach somewhere far away from the revenue. I thought we had established this??

Hellotonever

2ndcoming wrote: »

Yeah, it just sounds like you're a dreamer at this point. Personally I'd like to pay the Monaco rate but I think we all know it doesn't work like that.

And yeah, Revenue are out to catch people who commit tax evasion, shocker that.

Here it is like this.

If you never did your taxes you don't exist for them.
They still get the taxes you lose from your paycheck or elsewhere but they will never contact you or anything.

If you - for the first time - file your taxes they will start moving and probably demand that you send them everything for the last 10 years and they will never stop bothering you and expect you to submit your sh*t on time.

Hellotonever

Hellotonever wrote: »

Here it is like this.

If you never did your taxes you don't exist for them.
They still get the taxes you lose from your paycheck or elsewhere but they will never contact you or anything.

If you - for the first time - file your taxes they will start moving and probably demand that you send them everything for the last 10 years and they will never stop bothering you and expect you to submit your sh*t on time.

You then have unexplained wealth which banks and sellers of high value goods are required to report to the relevant authorities under money laundering legislation.

In Ireland, Revenue are one of the relevant authorities. Portugal will also have their equivalent as they are subject to the same EU Money Laundering Directive.

How good they are at doing it is another story.