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Crypto tax situation - Read post 1 for thread banned users

Gooey Looey

What is the tax situation?
I've started adding loose change towards crypto and have at times made some nice little earners along with building up some savings. I know I'm supposedly liable for capital gains tax if I turn a decent profit but I'll be leaving it as crypto, not looking to convert back into Fiat at this time.

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Hellotonever

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2ndcoming

You are looking at all of this ar5eways tbh.

If you have an income you will have a tax liability. That is in the terms and conditions of living in 99% of the countries on earth.

If you hide it you may get away with it for some time, yes. But you will get caught out at some point more than likely and they will come down on you like a brick sh1thouse. And the whole time you're getting away with it you have to watch where you keep your money to avoid DIRT, you can't buy property to avoid coming up on the system, you can't lease property for the same reason, etc, etc.

There are multiple high powered accountancy firms in Dublin who we have all heard of who exist primarily to minimise the amount of taxes wealthy people pay, legally. This is a far safer approach, in fact you'd go so far as to say it's the way the game is played. You want to play your own game, which generally does not end well.

Hellotonever

Deleted User wrote: »

You then have unexplained wealth which banks and sellers of high value goods are required to report to the relevant authorities under money laundering legislation.

In Ireland, Revenue are one of the relevant authorities. Portugal will also have their equivalent as they are subject to the same EU Money Laundering Directive.

How good they are at doing it is another story.

2ndcoming wrote: »

You are looking at all of this ar5eways tbh.

If you have an income you will have a tax liability. That is in the terms and conditions of living in 99% of the countries on earth.

If you hide it you may get away with it for some time, yes. But you will get caught out at some point more than likely and they will come down on you like a brick sh1thouse. And the whole time you're getting away with it you have to watch where you keep your money to avoid DIRT, you can't buy property to avoid coming up on the system, you can't lease property for the same reason, etc, etc.

There are multiple high powered accountancy firms in Dublin who we have all heard of who exist primarily to minimise the amount of taxes wealthy people pay, legally. This is a far safer approach, in fact you'd go so far as to say it's the way the game is played. You want to play your own game, which generally does not end well.

Sigh. You dont get it. Thats not even what I was saying. You will never get it. I will go back once my pedicure is done.

[Deleted User]

Oh I'm certain this is fantasy.

Regardless, this thread should prove useful and educational to those that need to be informed so I don't see the dialogue over the previous pages as being pointless!

Mellor

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Oh I'm certain this is fantasy.

Anone that believes this spoofer needs their head checked.

jobless

one way to prove it, picture from a beach with a note saying hello to boards.ie

Mellor

jobless wrote: »

one way to prove it, picture from a beach with a note saying hello to boards.ie

Any one can go to the beach

Del Griffith

bosco12345 wrote: »

These posts have been quite informative. As someone who has joined he crypto game about 3 weeks ago and has invested about €1300, I think il wait until I make some decent money before declaring. Hypothetically speaking, if i made, let's say €1000 profit, what are the chances of been flagged if I withdraw small amounts to my bank account (lets say 100 euro every week)

You'd be under the threshold and no tax would be liable.

relax carry on

For the love of god's lads, could someone put something in the opening post about tax evasion? The amount of how can I get away without declaring, how will they know etc posts is getting silly. If you are lucky enough to actually have a profit which will generate a tax liability then woohoo, you've actually got some profit that you didn't have before you started. Well done, be a grown up and pay your taxes. You don't have to like it. Who in their right mind does. The quarterly publications list which is fraction of those Revenue interventions which resulted in additional tax, interest and penalties being collected, is full of those who thought how can I get away with/how would they know. If you wish to do more than grumble about tax then contact the department of finance and multiple politicians to alter the rate of CGT or get some special rules for Cryptocurrency.

scwazrh

If you dealing with crypto in large regular amounts like a previous poster has mentioned would it not be classed as a trading activity and be better done through a company? 12.5% corporation tax would then apply ?

Bob24

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

This is a crypto forum for gods sake

anyone can prove their crypto net worth by simply saying I will move this specific amount (eg 123.456789 BTC) between addresses X hours from now at lets say 17:00 UTC

and then proof be right there on blockchain for ever and ever for whole world to see

As many of us, I am taking the poster’s story with a huge pinch of salt.

But being real, if I was sitting on hundreds or thousands of bitcoins I wouldn’t bother doing the above just because someone on the internet doesn’t believe me. I’d just move on.

Both because life is too short to bother with this stuff and for privacy reasons (I don’t think publicly associating a Bitcoin address with large holdings to an online ID is a great idea).

Rob2D

What if one was to cash out in England???? Since they have a more appealing rate.

jobless

Rob2D wrote: »

What if one was to cash out in England???? Since they have a more appealing rate.

yeah but you would need to be there 3 years before doing so

Rob2D

jobless wrote: »

yeah but you would need to be there 3 years before doing so

But what if I were a British citizen with a UK bank account and all that???

relax carry on

Rob2D wrote: »

But what if I were a British citizen with a UK bank account and all that???

Where are you tax resident and domiciled?

Rob2D

relax carry on wrote: »

Where are you tax resident and domiciled?

Here. Unless I arrange different. But that whole 3 or 5 year thing would still apply wouldn't it? Damn.

douglashyde

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/denis-o-brien-saves-63m-in-tax-stratagem-1.343993

< At certain point, changing tax residency can be beneficial and long term isn't not something people should rule out. CGT rate in this country is a joke yet we protest about water charges. Vote with your feet if it makes financial sense.

Not been active in this thread but I have read a chunk of it and a couple of things I wanted to point out (not financial advise, don't trust strangers on the internet):

- Something I've seen mentioned is writing off loses vs. gains. But this has to be within similar asset classes, you can not write off say losses for your gaff against BTC gains.

- Coinbase and other financial institutions operate under a thing called Common Reporting Standard, basically (in theory) agreeing to share your information across tax jurisdictions. << how active Irish Revenue is to do remains very unclear. I'd be keen to hear if they've ever gone after someone using an exchange's information to audit them or further still, proactively finding evasion.

olestoepoke

Rob2D wrote: »

Here. Unless I arrange different. But that whole 3 or 5 year thing would still apply wouldn't it? Damn.

You'll need to abandon your domicile of birth (Ireland) and declare a new domicile of choice and prove that you have cut all ties with your old abandoned domicile. A difficult thing to do as you'll need to prove to revenue that you have no intention of ever moving back to Ireland. Legislation on this is scarce and most cases are determined using case law and the evidence from the individuals circumstances. You'd need to sell your house, close all bank accounts, club memberships and anything that ties you to Ireland. Even planning to be buried here can go against you. Not saying you can never visit Ireland again but the onus is on you to prove that your intentions are true and not a sham to avoid tax.

Hellotonever

olestoepoke wrote: »

You'll need to abandon your domicile of birth (Ireland) and declare a new domicile of choice and prove that you have cut all ties with your old abandoned domicile. A difficult thing to do as you'll need to prove to revenue that you have no intention of ever moving back to Ireland. Legislation on this is scarce and most cases are determined using case law and the evidence from the individuals circumstances. You'd need to sell your house, close all bank accounts, club memberships and anything that ties you to Ireland. Even planning to be buried here can go against you. Not saying you can never visit Ireland again but the onus is on you to prove that your intentions are true and not a sham to avoid tax.

Dont spread fear and disinformation. Tax residency in Portugal is 183 consecutive days. Thats half a year. The other half? Doesn't matter where you f*ck off to. You can come back to Ireland if you want, as long as you don't pass any residency tests.

Crabs in a bucket the lot of you. Discouraging people from being smart with their assets.

chalky_ie

Isn't each trade that produces profit a taxable event? i.e. this story of 8 figures already involves copious amounts of tax evasion from the very start. I don't see how just moving to another country solves the issue, unless tax was paid on everything up until the point of moving.

olestoepoke

Hellotonever wrote: »

Dont spread fear and disinformation. Tax residency in Portugal is 183 consecutive days. Thats half a year. The other half? Doesn't matter where you f*ck off to. You can come back to Ireland if you want, as long as you don't pass any residency tests.

Crabs in a bucket the lot of you. Discouraging people from being smart with their assets.

Ok thanks for that I'll just take my degree off the wall and chuck it in the bin, worthless. I'm curious what part of my post is 'disinformation'? What part is inaccurate or untrue?

chalky_ie

Hellotonever wrote: »

Dont spread fear and disinformation. Tax residency in Portugal is 183 consecutive days. Thats half a year. The other half? Doesn't matter where you f*ck off to. You can come back to Ireland if you want, as long as you don't pass any residency tests.

Crabs in a bucket the lot of you. Discouraging people from being smart with their assets.

If any of this is true, you can talk about the crap tax system all you like, but at the end of the day, you're just greedy. You have 10m+ and don't want to participate in society in Ireland because you'd lose some of it to tax.

For most of us paying all our taxes has a far bigger impact on our lives, proportionately, than it would for you; nobody likes it, but it helps to make our country a pretty good place to live(even if there is some mismanagement of it).

As a supposed 'poor' person who has made this level of money, you'd think you would be happy with the ridiculous wealth you now have, and that some of it may go back into the community you came from when paying your taxes. Instead, you just boast about how you've legged it from the country that you grew up in(availing of all the services our taxes pay for), and call everyone who questions it a begrudger.

Hellotonever

olestoepoke wrote: »

Ok thanks for that I'll just take my degree off the wall and chuck it in the bin, worthless. I'm curious what part of my post is 'disinformation'? What part is inaccurate or untrue?

You know what you’re doing. Youre talking about exile and disavowment. In reality you’ll be going on a 6 month holiday to Portugal then coming back to Ireland. Its not an exodus. Its an extended holiday.

Hellotonever

conor-w wrote: »

If any of this is true, you can talk about the crap tax system all you like, but at the end of the day, you're just greedy. You have 10m+ and don't want to participate in society in Ireland because you'd lose some of it to tax.

For most of us paying all our taxes has a far bigger impact on our lives, proportionately, than it would for you; nobody likes it, but it helps to make our country a pretty good place to live(even if there is some mismanagement of it).

As a supposed 'poor' person who has made this level of money, you'd think you would be happy with the ridiculous wealth you now have, and that some of it may go back into the community you came from when paying your taxes. Instead, you just boast about how you've legged it from the country that you grew up in(availing of all the services our taxes pay for), and call everyone who questions it a begrudger.

Pal if you have no issue with how tax money is being spent then by all means give everything you have to FF/FG. Anyone smart (greedy as you call it) will know not to give anything to sycophants that jack up the housing market. Im not the problem. The government is.

olestoepoke

Hellotonever wrote: »

You know what you’re doing. Youre talking about exile and disavowment. In reality you’ll be going on a 6 month holiday to Portugal then coming back to Ireland. Its not an exodus. Its an extended holiday.

The poster was asking about how to avoid the 3 year residency rule. If you are domiciled in Ireland and tax resident your are liable for all Irish income and worldwide gains. The poster asked about being a UK citizen and then replied that no he was and Irish citizen to which I provided factual information related to how to change your domicile of birth to a domicile of choice. So again where in my post was the what you called 'disinformation'?

chalky_ie

Hellotonever wrote: »

Pal if you have no issue with how tax money is being spent then by all means give everything you have to FF/FG. Anyone smart (greedy as you call it) will know not to give anything to sycophants that jack up the housing market. Im not the problem. The government is.

Outright evading tax as a multi millionaire isn't being 'smart', it's greed. Calling it smart is a justification, you are complaining about the big bad politicians and others ruining the country, while actively participating in illegal activities that have a negative impact on the country.

relax carry on

For those concerned about actually discovering more about what if any tax liabilities/exposure you may have, please don't follow the advice of a Walter Mitty type character on an online forum. Please engage with professionals if you are in serious money territory and/or educate yourself on CGT which will most likely apply to your taxable activity.

chalky_ie

It must take a certain type of oddball to invent these scenarios on the internet.

False Prophet

No one is asking for anything illegal just different options.

To summarize:

One option is pay the 33% tax in Ireland by submitting in your yearly tax returns as a normal person. Makes sense if you have under 250K in profits or want to get yours hands on profits

One option is go to Portugal/Singapore etc for 3 years (well ~half of every year) instead. Makes sense if you have over 250K in profits depending on family/job etc. Risk of course is that you can only sell after 3 years at which point crypto value could be worse and you might have to stay for say 5 years etc. And i guess during that time also risk the country you move to changes law.

Correct?

douglashyde

False Prophet wrote: »

No one is asking for anything illegal just different options.

To summarize:

One option is pay the 33% tax in Ireland by submitting in your yearly tax returns as a normal person. Makes sense if you have under 250K in profits or want to get yours hands on profits

One option is go to Portugal/Singapore etc for 3 years (well ~half of every year) instead. Makes sense if you have over 250K in profits depending on family/job etc. Risk of course is that you can only sell after 3 years at which point crypto value could be worse and you might have to stay for say 5 years etc. And i guess during that time also risk the country you move to changes law.

Correct?

The three year rule confuses me...

Revenue.ie states that:

Tax and tax credits for non-residents

If you are non-resident your ordinary residency and domicile will affect how you are taxed.

Ordinarily resident and domiciled in Ireland
You might be non-resident, ordinarily resident and domiciled in Ireland for a tax year. In this case you will pay Irish tax on your worldwide income except:

- your foreign income from a trade, profession or employment performed outside of Ireland

your foreign investment income if it is less than €3,810.

your foreign income from a trade, profession or employment performed outside of Ireland
<< what does this mean / would a Crypto trade not be classified here?

Rob2D

olestoepoke wrote: »

You'll need to abandon your domicile of birth (Ireland)

Well my domicile of birth is the UK! (London). And I can get a British Passport. But as you say, I'm a tax resident here.

douglashyde wrote: »

- your foreign income from a trade, profession or employment performed outside of Ireland

your foreign investment income if it is less than €3,810.
[/I]

your foreign income from a trade, profession or employment performed outside of Ireland
<< what does this mean / would a Crypto trade not be classified here?

Very interesting! All my trades were done in Melbourne where my broker is and in AUS dollars. This adds a new twist.