The Strike is over. What happens now?

There was a lot of nativity on both sides. However by far the biggest nativity was on the processor and large finisher side. Loads of so called experts have been proven wrong.
While some of Beefplans thinking was not realistic mainly there price talking of 4.5/kg. Processor and large finisher's have created a mess for themselves.

For processors a light has been shone on there businesses that will be hard to turn off. 30 month limit and predatory pricing on certain animal types mainly bulls will put pressure on them to change these tactics.

Another issue for them is VAT on there own feedlots and larger finisher's killing over 1k cattle / year. If we assume that these finisher's kill over 100k/year if the law changes it will cost them 5-7 million euros and that is at present prices when prices rise you can add another million to that.

Generic producer groups have been approved and thus will force up prices and facilitate forward pricing especially for winter and early summer cattle. And Wrangler I know according to you they existed already but these are a totally different beast to your idea of a PG. As well we may see the HR and AA PG's able to negotiate national base prices

Processors as well face the problem that Courts and the law is not an option to stop/manage these strikes/protests. Farmers will not be reluctant to go again and from now on will insist on negotiation while pickets are in place. As well contrary to some experts here chill room's only stay full for so long. I was sick of telling lads that meat can only stay in a chill room for 3-4 weeks max after that there is only a week on the supermarket shelf. As well you cannot replace 30k + of cattle with Polish it any other beef and processing space is also an issue.

The new Beef Forum will be more farmer friendly and will side more with farmers than if processor's had behaved after the first part of the protest. The Government will not want a rehash of this during an election next year and the sword of VAT and maybe labour rules may be held over the processor's.

While no side can claim an outright victory the farmers have changed the rules of the game.

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There was a lot of nativity on both sides. However by far the biggest nativity was on the processor and large finisher side. Loads of so called experts have been proven wrong.
While some of Beefplans thinking was not realistic mainly there price talking of 4.5/kg. Processor and large finisher's have created a mess for themselves.

For processors a light has been shone on there businesses that will be hard to turn off. 30 month limit and predatory pricing on certain animal types mainly bulls will put pressure on them to change these tactics.

Another issue for them is VAT on there own feedlots and larger finisher's killing over 1k cattle / year. If we assume that these finisher's kill over 100k/year if the law changes it will cost them 5-7 million euros and that is at present prices when prices rise you can add another million to that.

Generic producer groups have been approved and thus will force up prices and facilitate forward pricing especially for winter and early summer cattle. And Wrangler I know according to you they existed already but these are a totally different beast to your idea of a PG. As well we may see the HR and AA PG's able to negotiate national base prices

Processors as well face the problem that Courts and the law is not an option to stop/manage these strikes/protests. Farmers will not be reluctant to go again and from now on will insist on negotiation while pickets are in place. As well contrary to some experts here chill room's only stay full for so long. I was sick of telling lads that meat can only stay in a chill room for 3-4 weeks max after that there is only a week on the supermarket shelf. As well you cannot replace 30k + of cattle with Polish it any other beef and processing space is also an issue.

The new Beef Forum will be more farmer friendly and will side more with farmers than if processor's had behaved after the first part of the protest. The Government will not want a rehash of this during an election next year and the sword of VAT and maybe labour rules may be held over the processor's.

While no side can claim an outright victory the farmers have changed the rules of the game.

Our group is going well now due mainly to the ability of our suppliers to supply the majority of the lambs inspec , What future have beef producer groups when they even whinge about becoming QA......... becoming QA is not an onerous ask compared with the effort to be a proper producer group

According to Agrikand the Liffey meats agreement also covers Bulls. The Price for O/R/U price of 3.3/3.4/3.5 per kg. As well both side will go to abritation in case of issues with the agreement. Np protesters to be discriminated against etc.

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There was a lot of nativity on both sides. However by far the biggest nativity was on the processor and large finisher side. Loads of so called experts have been proven wrong.
While some of Beefplans thinking was not realistic mainly there price talking of 4.5/kg. Processor and large finisher's have created a mess for themselves.

For processors a light has been shone on there businesses that will be hard to turn off. 30 month limit and predatory pricing on certain animal types mainly bulls will put pressure on them to change these tactics.

Another issue for them is VAT on there own feedlots and larger finisher's killing over 1k cattle / year. If we assume that these finisher's kill over 100k/year if the law changes it will cost them 5-7 million euros and that is at present prices when prices rise you can add another million to that.

Generic producer groups have been approved and thus will force up prices and facilitate forward pricing especially for winter and early summer cattle. And Wrangler I know according to you they existed already but these are a totally different beast to your idea of a PG. As well we may see the HR and AA PG's able to negotiate national base prices

Processors as well face the problem that Courts and the law is not an option to stop/manage these strikes/protests. Farmers will not be reluctant to go again and from now on will insist on negotiation while pickets are in place. As well contrary to some experts here chill room's only stay full for so long. I was sick of telling lads that meat can only stay in a chill room for 3-4 weeks max after that there is only a week on the supermarket shelf. As well you cannot replace 30k + of cattle with Polish it any other beef and processing space is also an issue.

The new Beef Forum will be more farmer friendly and will side more with farmers than if processor's had behaved after the first part of the protest. The Government will not want a rehash of this during an election next year and the sword of VAT and maybe labour rules may be held over the processor's.

While no side can claim an outright victory the farmers have changed the rules of the game.

Great post.

I said it before had Mll threw a few crumbs to the farmer at the beginning instead of the 'Ulster Unionist' no ...to everything they might have got away with a few days protest. The missed judged the farmer anger. One procurement manager said to me the IFA only stayed a few days and we got an agreement. I was quick to tell them you tried to walk on the IFAs grave by withdrawing their subs when they were down.

I do agree that this strike is a watershed moment by turning a light on. This new beef advisory group better not be a beef forum mark two or else these guys will be back on the gates.

Looks like Liffey has broke from the crowd...the Mll must be ragging. I have never saw a divide like that before.

After all the protest, did the beef farmers get anything? I stopped following a while back?

Yes, stopped the race down to €3.20.
No organisation who claim to represent farmers will sign off on a deal without genuine farmer consultation.
A light has been shone on this industry and the stranglehold one person has on it, facilitated by Govn't.

Panch18 wrote: »

No - they got nothing

Now in fairness I wouldn't say that. The original agreement got O-4+ cattle included on the grid which suit finishers.

wrangler wrote: »

I was thinking the main three won't move.
Are they killing yet

I haven't heard any quotes from the main three (as you call them) but I would be surprised if they increased prices considering the backlog of cattle. AFAIK the independent's that weren't blockaded haven't changed their prices.

Can someone please explain the "Vat Scam".? I've my head full of people trying to explain something they know absolute nothing about, didn't understand when they were being told about it, and have told the world and it's mother about it and so many other conspiracies..

Base, can you have a go?

Muckit wrote: »

A great post Bass, but victory isn't the correct term IMO. We weren't looking to win. If you pitch it like that it means there has to be a loser.

We were looking for a DEAL. And by God we got one. And who knows, there may be more deals,to be done down the road.

For a deal to be successful BOTH parties must walk away happy. Compromise must be shown by both sides.

Whether we like it or not, we need the factories but we must continue to ensure that the factories remember .... THEY NEED US TOO!!

We'll see how it works out, they're still our customers

K.G. wrote: »

Its amazing i see as the processor in complete control from start to finish of the blockades even still they are showing control and others see it completely different. Blockades weakness is that they are.illegal and once the factories had an injunction they are absolved from any contractual losses which liability passes onto the named people.injunctions had nothing to do with keeping factories open it was a way of closing them and sending cattle for a spin was all part of the process.therefore the factories could sit and wait. Which they did until creed begged them to give the farmer negotiaters a way out.make no mistake the factories were sitting pretty and under no pressure to come back to the table.every thing was in their favour and still is.but anyway i could be wrong

I was wondering why they didn't enforce the injunctions alright.

K.G. wrote: »

Its amazing i see as the processor in complete control from start to finish of the blockades even still they are showing control and others see it completely different. Blockades weakness is that they are.illegal and once the factories had an injunction they are absolved from any contractual losses which liability passes onto the named people.injunctions had nothing to do with keeping factories open it was a way of closing them and sending cattle for a spin was all part of the process.therefore the factories could sit and wait. Which they did until creed begged them to give the farmer negotiaters a way out.make no mistake the factories were sitting pretty and under no pressure to come back to the table.every thing was in their favour and still is.but anyway i could be wrong

and what doesn't kill them will make them stronger. They will learn plenty from the past 7 weeks. no doubt they have wise heads working out already how they can best position themselves in the time ahead so there business isn't put in a similar position next time.

Base price wrote: »

TBH I hoped that these talks would have insisted that our certified independent verification body (NSAI) be appointed to oversee the VIA's (video imagining analysis) system that is used to grade our cattle in Irish meat factories. It has been a thorn in my side for several years. Unfortunately it doesn't appear to be included in the recent agreement.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96839559&postcount=134
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=96839559

There would have been no talks only for the protests

wrangler wrote: »

Just looking at my own posts from that time, my opinion of the PS was spot on regarding the monitoring of the grading....... can't be trusted, is the NSAI part of the public service as well, My heart goes out to the million people that are now on the HSE waiting lists

You'll have to retrain as a Doctor or a nurse or a teacher and show them how it's done

wrangler wrote: »

I think you could even be one of them

I think it's time for bed. Some of us have work in the morning:D

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

Bonuses start from today, apparently.
https://twitter.com/farmersjournal/status/1176128815191527425?s=19

I think it's time for us to consider about getting BB certified.

freedominacup wrote: »

I'll have a go. A version of this was scheme was floated around here about 15 years ago. Basically feedlot not registered for vat. Company formed to grow all feed incl all costs relating to machinery. Company vat registered. Grows and sells all "feed" incl grazed grass to feedlot. No vat charged on animal feed afaik. Feedlot because not registered is paid vat on cattle sales with no obligation to pay this to revenue. All vat on inputs claimed by company. Then depending on where you want profits to end up. One side or other of the operation is run at a slight loss or close to break even.

Probably sailing close to the wind but not a scam or illegal. Lot of pig farms on it I would think where they have their own mills. I don't know why chicken farms got caught out.

Thanks freedom..remember the chicken one from that time. There are slight versions of this on many farms where feed (maize, wholecrops etc) is contract purchased through contractors or vat reg tillage lads and bought in vat free, while all the vat elements of the inputs (sprays, contracting, haulage) are reclaimed by the seller. It can even happen in small.instances where fertiliser and lime is bought spread.

Cant see the "vat scam" can work for the feedlot as the value put on the animal while in the feedlot is too small..too late now, tomorrow's sums

The vat loophole is perfectly Irish revenue legal but anti competitive per the recent eu France pig farmers versus Germany case decision. In a nutshell , the eu states that you cannot make a large gain from the flat rate vat and it’s only meant for small farmers to save everyone the trouble of doing and checking vat returns . It works perfectly well even up to those lads with 7 or 800 cattle as they tend to have big farms and lots of vatable invoices with machinery etc
But if you have 10,000 cattle in a feedlot and are getting 5.4% on every sale then that’s way more than compensating you for not being able to claim vat back on your vatable invoices. We are talking hundreds of thousands more of pure profit.
The example you give above is a perfectly legal add on to that vat loophole and icsa warned about the possibility of this being abused a lot further by manipulating feed costs etc a year or two ago. This last bit is illegal but apparently has being going on for years in certain agri sectors.

longgonesilver wrote: »

If you have 10000 cattle your turnover will be way over 10 million, surely they should be registered for VAT.

Can a company even qualify for these vat returns? Do they not have to be vat registered

No , farmers have always had the option to register or not to register and use the flat rate compensation scheme instead. Yes company is same thing once it’s farming .

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Its not the price to build the factory that is the issue. In general cattle slaughtered on the day are paid on the day( or at least the cheque is posted 24-48 hours later. If cattle are hung for 21 days and then packaged you are looking at 21+ days storage. Retailers look for 90 days credit. In essence yoy are looking at carrying stock for 4 months. For a processor slaughtering 500 cattle/day you are looking at 40-60 million in capital to hold stock





Yes the vat is entirely legal at present. However the Irish Government could change the rules at ant stage. For Processors feedlots slaughtering 80K cattle over the year its worth approx 5.5 million. For a larger feedlot killing 3k cattle over a winter,it worth over 200K. There is no way these business have that sort of vat issue.

I wonder when are Beef Plan going to challenge the Tax free land leases or 90% discount of farm transfers, are they working for revenue or what