Breaky Bitcoin Blues

JohnnyFlash · 26-11-2018 11:36pm

the_syco wrote: »

Most of the larger "successful" bitcoin farms were built near hydroelectric dams to get cheap electricity.

Ireland is a good location for it's cool climate. Thus why Apple trying to set up cloud shop in Galway.

Agreed on the second part, dude. We've a cool, wet, and fairly mundane climate. And the ESB are world leaders in facilitating HV connections to the electricity grid. They are shutting down our traditional peat and coal assets though, so there will be future challenges in our ability to produce energy without having to rely on very expensive and inefficient interconnectors.

The first part is something that is thrown around. Cheap hydro in Canada, Iceland, and Norway. The reality is that while the cost per kWh is cheap, the cost of direct grid connections, overhead, and labour costs make bitcoin quite expensive in these countries. And utilities are having to change their cost and operation models to make more from less energy consumption. So most crypto mining is done in China using coal fired plants using 90's technology.

grindle · 26-11-2018 11:39pm

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

One of the things that is very much ignored by the mainstream media is the astonishing amount of energy used by bitcoin miners.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/energy-and-resources/energy-footprint-of-bitcoin-beginning-to-outstrip-entire-state-1.3389239
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/05/new-study-quantifies-bitcoins-ludicrous-energy-consumption/
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jan/17/bitcoin-electricity-usage-huge-climate-cryptocurrency
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/bitcoin-mining-energy-use-electricity-cryptocurrency-a8353981.html
http://uk.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-uses-about-as-much-power-as-the-entire-country-of-ireland-2018-5?international=true&r=UK&IR=T
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5737919/Bitcoin-consume-energy-Austria-end-year-experts-say.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2017/12/19/why-the-bitcoin-craze-is-using-up-so-much-energy/?utm_term=.c98f8a61e8eb
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-10/bitcoin-outshines-electric-cars-as-driver-of-global-power-use

Yeah it's crazy, almost no coverage across all major publications whatsoever. :rolleyes:

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Other crypto scams say they are about to release alternatives to this repugnant proof-of-work scheme. But all of them lead to centralisation.

False. Proof of Stake allows for staking pool contracts meaning anybody at all with ANY amount of ether will be able to put some into a contract. It's a particularly good method of decentralising transaction verification in comparison to traditional miners. If referring to Delegated Proof of Stake a la EOS (a genuine scam) then yes, it leads to hilarious levels of centralisation.
Anyway, you already knew about staking pools because I've told you about them a few times. You weren't chucked from the crypto forum for having an opposing point of view, you were chucked for soapboxing and ignoring facts and arguments presented to you.
Come on Johnny, be honest and form arguments properly without ignoring anything - you can do it! I believe in you.

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

1) I asked can it just be replicated ?
A: No it can't be replicated. Not in the way you might think anyway.
2) Is it too slow and can be improved on ?
A: Yes it's too slow and can be improved upon.
3) Can it be stolen ?
A: If you're careless with your keys or trusting exchanges to hold your coins, of course it can be stolen.
4) You must view it as an investment of the highest order of risk - and could be worth nothing ?
A: Yes, because maybe none of the problems which are being mulled over get solved or maybe nobody wants to use it. Then it's worth nothing. Think of it like oil in 100 years - I hope to god I didn't choose too short a timeframe there but I'd hope renewable energy loosened oil's grip by then - if people don't need the oil for any reason, it will keep losing value until it has none.

The big thing was its advantages over other currencies - but in the next line he told me a friend of ours had all his stolen.

That last line - did you think it would be 100% unstealable? Almost everything can be stolen. If the owner makes an error then the owner can get screwed over., I don't see how it's any more of a solid argument against crypto vs keeping silverware in your kitchen drawers, jewellery in an unlocked box in the bedroom or the latest fashspaz-jacket from Brown Thomas in your wardrobe.

FixdePitchmark · 26-11-2018 11:47pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

grindle wrote: »

That last line - did you think it would be 100% unstealable? Almost everything can be stolen. If the owner makes an error then the owner can get screwed over., I don't see how it's any more of a solid argument against crypto vs keeping silverware in your kitchen drawers, jewellery in an unlocked box in the bedroom or the latest fashspaz-jacket from Brown Thomas in your wardrobe.

I'd rather have something in a house than a computer.

Even the FBI have been hacked.

This bloke could hardly do an IF statement in excel.

You'd want to have a fairly high level of internet level security - the highest.
So it just isn't for the average bloke at moment - and it is average people buying it - hence why it was over valued.

I still think your nuts to think it is safe - do you know anyone who had it stolen - did you have some stolen ,

How much have you lost on Bitcoin ?

Frunchy · 26-11-2018 11:49pm

Newer cryptos are using proof of stake which eliminates the energy cost of mining.

the_syco · 26-11-2018 11:57pm

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

The first part is something that is thrown around. Cheap hydro in Canada, Iceland, and Norway. The reality is that while the cost per kWh is cheap, the cost of direct grid connections, overhead, and labour costs make bitcoin quite expensive in these countries. And utilities are having to change their cost and operation models to make more from less energy consumption. So most crypto mining is done in China using coal fired plants using 90's technology.

Genesis Mining moved to Iceland in 2014, so some mining companies would probably pop up since they moved there. This link shows people looking to make old hydo dams to only power mining farms. It'll be interesting if many follow this idea?

China is the largest coal miner, so I doubt that the cost of coal is that much, though they are aiming at cutting their carob output, so I'm unsure what they intend to do long term.

grindle · 27-11-2018 12:03am

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

You'd want to have a fairly high level of internet level security - the highest.
So it just isn't for the average bloke at moment - and it is average people buying it - hence why it was over valued.

Agreed on all points.

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I still think your nuts to think it is safe - do you know anyone who had it stolen - did you have some stolen

Yes to knowing people who've gotten scammed, I haven't been scammed - yet?

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

How much have you lost on Bitcoin ?

Nothing. Not a Bitcoin fan, had a small amount a few years back thinking it was a cute idea and lost interest because it didn't have any utility beyond being a hedge against fiat. Bitcoin is an artificially crippled power-hog.
Most development revolves around Ethereum these days and it was the idea of programmable contracts for enterprise use that pricked my ears up and made me think "This maybe isn't just a niche libtard dream!"
Automation has already pummelled traditional "blue-collar" work & I reckon IoT, AI and blockchain will in the future make a meal of a lot of white-collar work.

27-11-2018 12:38am

gctest50 wrote: »

Ya might want check for this before all yer bitcoins get stolen :

https://github.com/dominictarr/event-stream/issues/116#issuecomment-441746370

This comments are a great read. While I get the dev's point, he really dropped the ball not deprecating instead.

I use node for hobby projects, and I will use it for a site I want to built next year, but the dependencies are kinda insane. You get tricked into thinking you're writing such clean and concise code, till you look at node_modules.

To everyone else, the attacker simply asked for permission to work on the project and then obfuscated his malicious code. Some GitHub trickery meant it was only part of the repo for a while before being removed, but it was the tainted version that was being downloaded by all of these other modules. (I suck at github but I think that's it)

The Enbalmer · 15-01-2019 1:24pm

Some bunch of lunatics over on the Crypto forum.

They remind me of flat earthers or Scientologists.

Definitely a brainwashed cult of some sort..ask them a question about real-world usages for their magic money and you'll get a torrent of abuse and then you'll be banned.

I understand it's difficult when you've been ripped off by a Ponzi scheme but no need to blame everybody who is cynical about the whole nonsense that it Crypto.

JohnnyFlash · 15-01-2019 1:46pm

A thorough reading of Thinking, Fast and Slow might be a useful activity for some of the more ideologically driven cryptoheads (not just on Boards). Kanhneman writes about many of the cognitive biases that are on display.

Examples included pervasive optimistic bias, the planning fallacy, the illusion of control, anchoring effect, overconfidence, the sunk cost fallacy.

Late 2017/early 2018 was a classic hysteria bubble, and now the coins have dropped in value by over 95%. Products aren't being developed using cryptocoins, usage is actually dropping, liquidity is nonexistent, exit scams are still continuing, and the whole space is in a death rattle to any non-biased outsider.

My own belief is that crypto attracted lots of fairly financially illiterate young men who thought they could make money by investing in hugely manipulated coin offerings. The fear of missing out was strong. The people who put real money into the system to buy these magic coins were the real losers. The smart guys were those who just launched their own coin, created some hype, then cashed out and exited stage left. No different than any other scam.

The Enbalmer · 15-01-2019 2:04pm

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

A thorough reading of Thinking, Fast and Slow might be a useful activity for some of the more ideologically driven cryptoheads (not just on Boards). Kanhneman writes about many of the cognitive biases that are on display.

Examples included pervasive optimistic bias, the planning fallacy, the illusion of control, anchoring effect, overconfidence, the sunk cost fallacy.

Late 2017/early 2018 was a classic hysteria bubble, and now the coins have dropped in value by over 95%. Products aren't being developed using cryptocoins, usage is actually dropping, liquidity is nonexistent, exit scams are still continuing, and the whole space is in a death rattle to any non-biased outsider.

My own belief is that crypto attracted lots of fairly financially illiterate young men who thought they could make money by investing in hugely manipulated coin offerings. The fear of missing out was strong. The people who put real money into the system to buy these magic coins were the real losers. The smart guys were those who just launched their own coin, created some hype, then cashed out and exited stage left. No different than any other scam.

You'd think after the sheer number of scams irish people have fallen for historically that people would be more carefull but no...in they rush and defend their poor decision to the death.

I notice on that forum the focus moved very quickly from Lambos and riches to trying to make pennies by messing around with ever more obscure ****ecoins and then still professing themselves to be experts.

Then there's the Subways in Venezuala

squawker · 15-01-2019 4:10pm

The Enbalmer wrote: »

ask them a question about real-world usages for their magic money.

I bought €5000 worth of computer equipment and also a €2500 3D camera with BtC last December and a VW Touran from cashed in BtC from my max investment of €120 in BtC 9 years ago

Blockchain is going to be the future of Internet money like it or not

15-01-2019 5:07pm

squawker wrote: »

I bought €5000 worth of computer equipment and also a €2500 3D camera with BtC last December and a VW Touran from cashed in BtC from my max investment of €120 in BtC 9 years ago

Blockchain is going to be the future of Internet money like it or not

What you've described is capital gains from speculation rather than everyday currency use.

The Enbalmer · 15-01-2019 5:38pm

squawker wrote: »

Blockchain is going to be the future of Internet money like it or not

Why then after a decade is nobody using it as currency?

rapul · 15-01-2019 5:39pm

The Enbalmer wrote: »

Some bunch of lunatics over on the Crypto forum.

They remind me of flat earthers or Scientologists.

Definitely a brainwashed cult of some sort..ask them a question about real-world usages for their magic money and you'll get a torrent of abuse and then you'll be banned.

I understand it's difficult when you've been ripped off by a Ponzi scheme but no need to blame everybody who is cynical about the whole nonsense that it Crypto.

Grow up, you were trolling.

The Enbalmer · 15-01-2019 5:47pm

rapul wrote: »

Grow up, you were trolling.

Not at all. I was asking why people "invest" in this technology when nobody is using it and why do they continue to think bitcoin will "rally" despite all the evidence for it being a burst bubble.

It seems nobody had any answers so they all went running to the mod for help..very Gordon Gecko-like I must say.

rapul · 15-01-2019 5:51pm

Wow you've changed your tune, read back over your posts maybe. I'm out anyway not bothered spoon feeding you, your questions were answered, just not upto your standard apparently.

Edit: did u read what the Mod wrote about you?!

sk8erboii · 15-01-2019 5:57pm

The Enbalmer wrote: »

Not at all. I was asking why people "invest" in this technology when nobody is using it and why do they continue to think bitcoin will "rally" despite all the evidence for it being a burst bubble.

It seems nobody had any answers so they all went running to the mod for help..very Gordon Gecko-like I must say.

Its pretty overblown yeah but theres hundreds of uses cases for blockchains nowadays. Dunno why you think no ones using them

https://www.newsbtc.com/2018/12/17/porsche-blockchain-platform-loan/

https://www.pymnts.com/news/b2b-payments/2019/hsbc-blockchain-fx-trading-cryptocurrency/

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/15/iberdrola-uses-blockchain-to-ensure-renewable-energy-supply.html

The Enbalmer · 15-01-2019 6:10pm

sk8erboii wrote: »

Its pretty overblown yeah but theres hundreds of uses cases for blockchains nowadays. Dunno why you think no ones using them

https://www.newsbtc.com/2018/12/17/porsche-blockchain-platform-loan/

https://www.pymnts.com/news/b2b-payments/2019/hsbc-blockchain-fx-trading-cryptocurrency/

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/15/iberdrola-uses-blockchain-to-ensure-renewable-energy-supply.html

Fake news and none of those links relate to the everyday use of bitcoin as a currency or to the everyday use of blockchain technology.

BUT let's say this stuff IS being used so commonly,why has the price of bitcoin fallen to just over 3000 dollars from a high last year of nearly 20,000 dollars?

How does that indicate anything but a bubble that has burst?

Although I suppose these vested interests have got to take some of the blame,publishing nonsensical predictions.

For a Ponzi to work properly those with skin in the game have an obligation to get others to join in..at the cost of the truth and common sense.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 15-01-2019 6:19pm

The Enbalmer wrote: »

Fake news and none of those links relate to the everyday use of bitcoin as a currency or to the everyday use of blockchain technology.

BUT let's say this stuff IS being used so commonly,why has the price of bitcoin fallen to just over 3000 dollars from a high last year of nearly 20,000 dollars?

How does that indicate anything but a bubble that has burst?

Although I suppose these vested interests have got to take some of the blame,publishing nonsensical predictions.

For a Ponzi to work properly those with skin in the game have an obligation to get others to join in..at the cost of the truth and common sense.

Sadly true. And it’s why these schemes cause such ill-feeling. People need others to enter to see a return themselves and have to not give a shît that those below them could end up losing everything.

Mr. CooL ICE · 15-01-2019 6:27pm

The Enbalmer wrote: »

Some bunch of lunatics over on the Crypto forum.

Mod: Don't bitch about other forums here.

You were banned from the Crypto forum. Whatever the reasons were, I don't know. But don't use After Hours to continue whatever nonsense got you banned over there. In other words, don't post in this thread and don't post in AH about bitcoin or other crypto currencies.

grindle · 15-01-2019 6:44pm

sk8erboii wrote: »

Its pretty overblown yeah but theres hundreds of uses cases for blockchains nowadays. Dunno why you think no ones using them

Save your time, he won't be convinced. He thinks Bitcoin is the only project or the only thing we care about, won't do any research for himself or read what you spoonfeed the poor bàb and is convinced that "I am right, you are wrong, everything is a ponzi!" is a rational argument.
He also thinks any new development has to be wildly successful within 10 years or it's worthless - this despite him conveying this sentiment via a PC he should apparently consider worthless along with mobile phones, the internet and operating systems. All worthless by his definition of worth as they all took much longer than 10 years to take root.
He's precisely what the ignore button is for.

To whomever doesn't know what a Ponzi is: just search the dictionary, please for the love of god. As crap as Bitcoin is currently, it's not a Ponzi. It's an over-speculated, hyper-manipulated money-sponge with god-awful liquidity that started off with good intentions and has been hijacked (for better or worse is a matter of opinion but I think worse).

AlanG · 15-01-2019 6:50pm

squawker wrote: »

I bought €5000 worth of computer equipment and also a €2500 3D camera with BtC last December and a VW Touran from cashed in BtC from my max investment of €120 in BtC 9 years ago

Blockchain is going to be the future of Internet money like it or not

A good return. Out of interest how was it treated for tax purposes, is it income tax or capital gains or something else?

squawker · 15-01-2019 6:53pm

The Enbalmer wrote: »

Why then after a decade is nobody using it as currency?

10 years is fcuk all in the scheme of things

I personally have used it plenty of times to purchase digital goods over the last few months and will hopefully continue to use it well into the future

I like owning my own money with no middle man skimming my money off me with unnecessary charges

AlanG wrote: »

A good return. Out of interest how was it treated for tax purposes, is it income tax or capital gains or something else?

no idea, I used mine for direct trade of (Computer) goods and local bitcoin trade (cash for BtC) for the Car

grindle · 15-01-2019 7:32pm

AlanG wrote: »

A good return. Out of interest how was it treated for tax purposes, is it income tax or capital gains or something else?

It's capital gains - 33% of realised profit made after the first €1270.

Atoms for Peace · 15-01-2019 7:41pm

Will the ever increasing amount of processing power needed to process the blockchains get to a stage that a makes the whole thing not economicly viable?

JohnnyFlash · 15-01-2019 7:49pm

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

Will the ever increasing amount of processing power needed to process the blockchains get to a stage that a makes the whole thing not economicly viable?

The proof of work that powers bitcoin and its offspring is completely morally repugnant. Using more energy than Ireland and Austria put together so people can speculate on the value of something with absolutely no inherent value.

squawker · 15-01-2019 7:56pm

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

Will the ever increasing amount of processing power needed to process the blockchains get to a stage that a makes the whole thing not economicly viable?

Blockchain is evolving

its now Proof of Stake not Proof of Work (Mining)

so you just open your wallet for staking on this new blockchain tech.

Whatever PC your wallet is running on would have to stay connected to the internet for the duration that you want it to stake.

Spannerplank · 15-01-2019 8:12pm

The Enbalmer wrote: »

Fake news and none of those links relate to the everyday use of bitcoin as a currency or to the everyday use of blockchain technology.

BUT let's say this stuff IS being used so commonly,why has the price of bitcoin fallen to just over 3000 dollars from a high last year of nearly 20,000 dollars?

How does that indicate anything but a bubble that has burst?

Although I suppose these vested interests have got to take some of the blame,publishing nonsensical predictions.

For a Ponzi to work properly those with skin in the game have an obligation to get others to join in..at the cost of the truth and common sense.

You say the btc bubble has burst. What is its price today in relation to its price in 2010?

grindle · 15-01-2019 9:17pm

squawker wrote: »

Blockchain is evolving

its now Proof of Stake not Proof of Work (Mining)

so you just open your wallet for staking on this new blockchain tech.

Whatever PC your wallet is running on would have to stay connected to the internet for the duration that you want it to stake.

...only if you're an Ethereum fan and that'll be in a year or two (please let it be a year), or maybe some other newer project. Bitcoin will be Proof of Work forever according to the Core devs, so unless the Core devs change or evolve their thinking it's staying the way it is.

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

Will the ever increasing amount of processing power needed to process the blockchains get to a stage that a makes the whole thing not economicly viable?

This is unlikely unless some ideal second layer gets built atop it but hypothetically if Bitcoin ever became a popular reserve currency and there were a few more booms left before that happened and the mining frenzy went into overdrive each of those times and the Core devs didn't change the algorithm so ASICs continue to own the network, then hitting some point where it's ecologically unviable is likely (not just due to energy use but due to the possibility of millions of miners which would get dumped in a Chinese landfill) but economically the miners with highest costs would turn off their nodes if it was unprofitable, the difficulty gets readjusted and it's profitable again. It would fluctuate in a fairly minor way at that stage - instead of today's mining farms you'd be talking more in terms of Google or AWS data center.-scale mining operations.
Another sad thing is the devs could literally change one line of code and Bitcoin could process 10x the amount of transactions for the same energy cost, with the caveat being a theoretical possibility of further centralisation. It's already quite centralised thanks to Chinese miners, so the situational caveat is reality right now.

Like squawker says, newer methods of verifying transactions exist and more will exist but the BTC Core devs see the cost of electricity as a substantial signal that people are putting their money where their mouth is to secure the network, with the idea being the more popular it becomes the more expensive it becomes to attack. Spending half a country's electricity bill in order to reverse a block in order to double-spend, get found out and then promptly excluded from the chain does seem watertight, it's secure in that sense.
PoW was and is a novel way to bootstrap the idea into existence - "Everyone has a CPU!" which turned into "A lot of people have GPUs!" then became "This one company has built some magic sauce machine that everybody has to buy" - but once it became an ASIC arms-race with no further scaling of the chain it became something perverse.

Atoms for Peace · 09-04-2019 7:18pm

Looks like the Chinese government is going to crack down on Bitcoin mining.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-cryptocurrency/china-says-it-wants-to-eliminate-bitcoin-mining-idUSKCN1RL0C4?feedType=RSS&feedName=businessNews&utm_source=reddit.com

Breaky Bitcoin Blues

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