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Breaky Bitcoin Blues

Slideways

I was having the porridge this morning with a few colleagues, and the chat came around to cryptocurrency. Turns out they all got roasted buying bitcoin, Ethereum and other coins during the bubble in November and December of last year. Two of the lads are going to sell their remaining coins this week, and put the whole thing down to getting greedy and falling for a classic pyramid scheme. One other lad (a hard-living Scot) was threatening to track down an ex-colleague of ours and ‘put the slipphery wee kunt in a grave’ for talking the group into buying these coins in the first place.

One of them was worth almost 900k Aussie dollars at the height of the bubble. He was boasting back in December about buying a yacht, moving to Puerto Rico, and shacking up with some local bird with his epic crypto gains. His investment is now worth less than 3k.That’s shocking stuff. You’d hear very little these days about the space in the papers, or on the telly. Did anyone here lose the arse of their trousers gambling on these coins, and did you learn a lesson? Has it any future at all? Was it greed, stupidity, or a mixture of both that caused young lads to throw their savings into this stuff? You’d have to stroke your chin and wonder what they were thinking.

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FixdePitchmark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

grindle wrote: »

That last line - did you think it would be 100% unstealable? Almost everything can be stolen. If the owner makes an error then the owner can get screwed over., I don't see how it's any more of a solid argument against crypto vs keeping silverware in your kitchen drawers, jewellery in an unlocked box in the bedroom or the latest fashspaz-jacket from Brown Thomas in your wardrobe.

I'd rather have something in a house than a computer.

Even the FBI have been hacked.

This bloke could hardly do an IF statement in excel.

You'd want to have a fairly high level of internet level security - the highest.
So it just isn't for the average bloke at moment - and it is average people buying it - hence why it was over valued.

I still think your nuts to think it is safe - do you know anyone who had it stolen - did you have some stolen ,

How much have you lost on Bitcoin ?

Frunchy

Newer cryptos are using proof of stake which eliminates the energy cost of mining.

the_syco

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

The first part is something that is thrown around. Cheap hydro in Canada, Iceland, and Norway. The reality is that while the cost per kWh is cheap, the cost of direct grid connections, overhead, and labour costs make bitcoin quite expensive in these countries. And utilities are having to change their cost and operation models to make more from less energy consumption. So most crypto mining is done in China using coal fired plants using 90's technology.

Genesis Mining moved to Iceland in 2014, so some mining companies would probably pop up since they moved there. This link shows people looking to make old hydo dams to only power mining farms. It'll be interesting if many follow this idea?

China is the largest coal miner, so I doubt that the cost of coal is that much, though they are aiming at cutting their carob output, so I'm unsure what they intend to do long term.

grindle

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

You'd want to have a fairly high level of internet level security - the highest.
So it just isn't for the average bloke at moment - and it is average people buying it - hence why it was over valued.

Agreed on all points.

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I still think your nuts to think it is safe - do you know anyone who had it stolen - did you have some stolen

Yes to knowing people who've gotten scammed, I haven't been scammed - yet?

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

How much have you lost on Bitcoin ?

Nothing. Not a Bitcoin fan, had a small amount a few years back thinking it was a cute idea and lost interest because it didn't have any utility beyond being a hedge against fiat. Bitcoin is an artificially crippled power-hog.
Most development revolves around Ethereum these days and it was the idea of programmable contracts for enterprise use that pricked my ears up and made me think "This maybe isn't just a niche libtard dream!"
Automation has already pummelled traditional "blue-collar" work & I reckon IoT, AI and blockchain will in the future make a meal of a lot of white-collar work.

[Deleted User]

gctest50 wrote: »

Ya might want check for this before all yer bitcoins get stolen :

https://github.com/dominictarr/event-stream/issues/116#issuecomment-441746370

This comments are a great read. While I get the dev's point, he really dropped the ball not deprecating instead.

I use node for hobby projects, and I will use it for a site I want to built next year, but the dependencies are kinda insane. You get tricked into thinking you're writing such clean and concise code, till you look at node_modules.

To everyone else, the attacker simply asked for permission to work on the project and then obfuscated his malicious code. Some GitHub trickery meant it was only part of the repo for a while before being removed, but it was the tainted version that was being downloaded by all of these other modules. (I suck at github but I think that's it)

The Enbalmer

Some bunch of lunatics over on the Crypto forum.

They remind me of flat earthers or Scientologists.

Definitely a brainwashed cult of some sort..ask them a question about real-world usages for their magic money and you'll get a torrent of abuse and then you'll be banned.

I understand it's difficult when you've been ripped off by a Ponzi scheme but no need to blame everybody who is cynical about the whole nonsense that it Crypto.

JohnnyFlash

A thorough reading of Thinking, Fast and Slow might be a useful activity for some of the more ideologically driven cryptoheads (not just on Boards). Kanhneman writes about many of the cognitive biases that are on display.

Examples included pervasive optimistic bias, the planning fallacy, the illusion of control, anchoring effect, overconfidence, the sunk cost fallacy.

Late 2017/early 2018 was a classic hysteria bubble, and now the coins have dropped in value by over 95%. Products aren't being developed using cryptocoins, usage is actually dropping, liquidity is nonexistent, exit scams are still continuing, and the whole space is in a death rattle to any non-biased outsider.

My own belief is that crypto attracted lots of fairly financially illiterate young men who thought they could make money by investing in hugely manipulated coin offerings. The fear of missing out was strong. The people who put real money into the system to buy these magic coins were the real losers. The smart guys were those who just launched their own coin, created some hype, then cashed out and exited stage left. No different than any other scam.

The Enbalmer

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

A thorough reading of Thinking, Fast and Slow might be a useful activity for some of the more ideologically driven cryptoheads (not just on Boards). Kanhneman writes about many of the cognitive biases that are on display.

Examples included pervasive optimistic bias, the planning fallacy, the illusion of control, anchoring effect, overconfidence, the sunk cost fallacy.

Late 2017/early 2018 was a classic hysteria bubble, and now the coins have dropped in value by over 95%. Products aren't being developed using cryptocoins, usage is actually dropping, liquidity is nonexistent, exit scams are still continuing, and the whole space is in a death rattle to any non-biased outsider.

My own belief is that crypto attracted lots of fairly financially illiterate young men who thought they could make money by investing in hugely manipulated coin offerings. The fear of missing out was strong. The people who put real money into the system to buy these magic coins were the real losers. The smart guys were those who just launched their own coin, created some hype, then cashed out and exited stage left. No different than any other scam.

You'd think after the sheer number of scams irish people have fallen for historically that people would be more carefull but no...in they rush and defend their poor decision to the death.

I notice on that forum the focus moved very quickly from Lambos and riches to trying to make pennies by messing around with ever more obscure ****ecoins and then still professing themselves to be experts.

Then there's the Subways in Venezuala

squawker

The Enbalmer wrote: »

ask them a question about real-world usages for their magic money.

I bought €5000 worth of computer equipment and also a €2500 3D camera with BtC last December and a VW Touran from cashed in BtC from my max investment of €120 in BtC 9 years ago

Blockchain is going to be the future of Internet money like it or not

[Deleted User]

squawker wrote: »

I bought €5000 worth of computer equipment and also a €2500 3D camera with BtC last December and a VW Touran from cashed in BtC from my max investment of €120 in BtC 9 years ago

Blockchain is going to be the future of Internet money like it or not

What you've described is capital gains from speculation rather than everyday currency use.

The Enbalmer

squawker wrote: »

Blockchain is going to be the future of Internet money like it or not

Why then after a decade is nobody using it as currency?

rapul

The Enbalmer wrote: »

Some bunch of lunatics over on the Crypto forum.

They remind me of flat earthers or Scientologists.

Definitely a brainwashed cult of some sort..ask them a question about real-world usages for their magic money and you'll get a torrent of abuse and then you'll be banned.

I understand it's difficult when you've been ripped off by a Ponzi scheme but no need to blame everybody who is cynical about the whole nonsense that it Crypto.

Grow up, you were trolling.

The Enbalmer

rapul wrote: »

Grow up, you were trolling.

Not at all. I was asking why people "invest" in this technology when nobody is using it and why do they continue to think bitcoin will "rally" despite all the evidence for it being a burst bubble.

It seems nobody had any answers so they all went running to the mod for help..very Gordon Gecko-like I must say.

rapul

Wow you've changed your tune, read back over your posts maybe. I'm out anyway not bothered spoon feeding you, your questions were answered, just not upto your standard apparently.

Edit: did u read what the Mod wrote about you?!

sk8erboii

The Enbalmer wrote: »

Not at all. I was asking why people "invest" in this technology when nobody is using it and why do they continue to think bitcoin will "rally" despite all the evidence for it being a burst bubble.

It seems nobody had any answers so they all went running to the mod for help..very Gordon Gecko-like I must say.

Its pretty overblown yeah but theres hundreds of uses cases for blockchains nowadays. Dunno why you think no ones using them

https://www.newsbtc.com/2018/12/17/porsche-blockchain-platform-loan/

https://www.pymnts.com/news/b2b-payments/2019/hsbc-blockchain-fx-trading-cryptocurrency/

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/15/iberdrola-uses-blockchain-to-ensure-renewable-energy-supply.html

The Enbalmer

sk8erboii wrote: »

Its pretty overblown yeah but theres hundreds of uses cases for blockchains nowadays. Dunno why you think no ones using them

https://www.newsbtc.com/2018/12/17/porsche-blockchain-platform-loan/

https://www.pymnts.com/news/b2b-payments/2019/hsbc-blockchain-fx-trading-cryptocurrency/

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/15/iberdrola-uses-blockchain-to-ensure-renewable-energy-supply.html

Fake news and none of those links relate to the everyday use of bitcoin as a currency or to the everyday use of blockchain technology.

BUT let's say this stuff IS being used so commonly,why has the price of bitcoin fallen to just over 3000 dollars from a high last year of nearly 20,000 dollars?

How does that indicate anything but a bubble that has burst?

Although I suppose these vested interests have got to take some of the blame,publishing nonsensical predictions.

For a Ponzi to work properly those with skin in the game have an obligation to get others to join in..at the cost of the truth and common sense.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

The Enbalmer wrote: »

Fake news and none of those links relate to the everyday use of bitcoin as a currency or to the everyday use of blockchain technology.

BUT let's say this stuff IS being used so commonly,why has the price of bitcoin fallen to just over 3000 dollars from a high last year of nearly 20,000 dollars?

How does that indicate anything but a bubble that has burst?

Although I suppose these vested interests have got to take some of the blame,publishing nonsensical predictions.

For a Ponzi to work properly those with skin in the game have an obligation to get others to join in..at the cost of the truth and common sense.

Sadly true. And it’s why these schemes cause such ill-feeling. People need others to enter to see a return themselves and have to not give a shît that those below them could end up losing everything.

Mr. CooL ICE

The Enbalmer wrote: »

Some bunch of lunatics over on the Crypto forum.

Mod: Don't bitch about other forums here.

You were banned from the Crypto forum. Whatever the reasons were, I don't know. But don't use After Hours to continue whatever nonsense got you banned over there. In other words, don't post in this thread and don't post in AH about bitcoin or other crypto currencies.

grindle

sk8erboii wrote: »

Its pretty overblown yeah but theres hundreds of uses cases for blockchains nowadays. Dunno why you think no ones using them

Save your time, he won't be convinced. He thinks Bitcoin is the only project or the only thing we care about, won't do any research for himself or read what you spoonfeed the poor bàb and is convinced that "I am right, you are wrong, everything is a ponzi!" is a rational argument.
He also thinks any new development has to be wildly successful within 10 years or it's worthless - this despite him conveying this sentiment via a PC he should apparently consider worthless along with mobile phones, the internet and operating systems. All worthless by his definition of worth as they all took much longer than 10 years to take root.
He's precisely what the ignore button is for.

To whomever doesn't know what a Ponzi is: just search the dictionary, please for the love of god. As crap as Bitcoin is currently, it's not a Ponzi. It's an over-speculated, hyper-manipulated money-sponge with god-awful liquidity that started off with good intentions and has been hijacked (for better or worse is a matter of opinion but I think worse).

AlanG

squawker wrote: »

I bought €5000 worth of computer equipment and also a €2500 3D camera with BtC last December and a VW Touran from cashed in BtC from my max investment of €120 in BtC 9 years ago

Blockchain is going to be the future of Internet money like it or not

A good return. Out of interest how was it treated for tax purposes, is it income tax or capital gains or something else?

squawker

The Enbalmer wrote: »

Why then after a decade is nobody using it as currency?

10 years is fcuk all in the scheme of things

I personally have used it plenty of times to purchase digital goods over the last few months and will hopefully continue to use it well into the future

I like owning my own money with no middle man skimming my money off me with unnecessary charges

AlanG wrote: »

A good return. Out of interest how was it treated for tax purposes, is it income tax or capital gains or something else?

no idea, I used mine for direct trade of (Computer) goods and local bitcoin trade (cash for BtC) for the Car

grindle

AlanG wrote: »

A good return. Out of interest how was it treated for tax purposes, is it income tax or capital gains or something else?

It's capital gains - 33% of realised profit made after the first €1270.

Atoms for Peace

Will the ever increasing amount of processing power needed to process the blockchains get to a stage that a makes the whole thing not economicly viable?

JohnnyFlash

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

Will the ever increasing amount of processing power needed to process the blockchains get to a stage that a makes the whole thing not economicly viable?

The proof of work that powers bitcoin and its offspring is completely morally repugnant. Using more energy than Ireland and Austria put together so people can speculate on the value of something with absolutely no inherent value.

squawker

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

Will the ever increasing amount of processing power needed to process the blockchains get to a stage that a makes the whole thing not economicly viable?

Blockchain is evolving

its now Proof of Stake not Proof of Work (Mining)

so you just open your wallet for staking on this new blockchain tech.

Whatever PC your wallet is running on would have to stay connected to the internet for the duration that you want it to stake.

Spannerplank

The Enbalmer wrote: »

Fake news and none of those links relate to the everyday use of bitcoin as a currency or to the everyday use of blockchain technology.

BUT let's say this stuff IS being used so commonly,why has the price of bitcoin fallen to just over 3000 dollars from a high last year of nearly 20,000 dollars?

How does that indicate anything but a bubble that has burst?

Although I suppose these vested interests have got to take some of the blame,publishing nonsensical predictions.

For a Ponzi to work properly those with skin in the game have an obligation to get others to join in..at the cost of the truth and common sense.

You say the btc bubble has burst. What is its price today in relation to its price in 2010?

grindle

squawker wrote: »

Blockchain is evolving

its now Proof of Stake not Proof of Work (Mining)

so you just open your wallet for staking on this new blockchain tech.

Whatever PC your wallet is running on would have to stay connected to the internet for the duration that you want it to stake.

...only if you're an Ethereum fan and that'll be in a year or two (please let it be a year), or maybe some other newer project. Bitcoin will be Proof of Work forever according to the Core devs, so unless the Core devs change or evolve their thinking it's staying the way it is.

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

Will the ever increasing amount of processing power needed to process the blockchains get to a stage that a makes the whole thing not economicly viable?

This is unlikely unless some ideal second layer gets built atop it but hypothetically if Bitcoin ever became a popular reserve currency and there were a few more booms left before that happened and the mining frenzy went into overdrive each of those times and the Core devs didn't change the algorithm so ASICs continue to own the network, then hitting some point where it's ecologically unviable is likely (not just due to energy use but due to the possibility of millions of miners which would get dumped in a Chinese landfill) but economically the miners with highest costs would turn off their nodes if it was unprofitable, the difficulty gets readjusted and it's profitable again. It would fluctuate in a fairly minor way at that stage - instead of today's mining farms you'd be talking more in terms of Google or AWS data center.-scale mining operations.
Another sad thing is the devs could literally change one line of code and Bitcoin could process 10x the amount of transactions for the same energy cost, with the caveat being a theoretical possibility of further centralisation. It's already quite centralised thanks to Chinese miners, so the situational caveat is reality right now.

Like squawker says, newer methods of verifying transactions exist and more will exist but the BTC Core devs see the cost of electricity as a substantial signal that people are putting their money where their mouth is to secure the network, with the idea being the more popular it becomes the more expensive it becomes to attack. Spending half a country's electricity bill in order to reverse a block in order to double-spend, get found out and then promptly excluded from the chain does seem watertight, it's secure in that sense.
PoW was and is a novel way to bootstrap the idea into existence - "Everyone has a CPU!" which turned into "A lot of people have GPUs!" then became "This one company has built some magic sauce machine that everybody has to buy" - but once it became an ASIC arms-race with no further scaling of the chain it became something perverse.

Atoms for Peace

Looks like the Chinese government is going to crack down on Bitcoin mining.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-cryptocurrency/china-says-it-wants-to-eliminate-bitcoin-mining-idUSKCN1RL0C4?feedType=RSS&feedName=businessNews&utm_source=reddit.com

q85dw7osi4lebg

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

Looks like the Chinese government is going to crack down on Bitcoin mining.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-cryptocurrency/china-says-it-wants-to-eliminate-bitcoin-mining-idUSKCN1RL0C4?feedType=RSS&feedName=businessNews&utm_source=reddit.com

No surprises, they crack down on everything good.

kerplun k

kerplun k wrote: »

That's a very bold statement to say BTC will never recover from this, of course it will. I've set a reminder to poke you when it hits 5.5 again. :pac:

seamus wrote: »

5.5 is a very soft target. It could bounce up to that (and back down again) next week.

Nevertheless, I'm pretty confident you'll never receive that reminder.

In 2025 there'll be a thread entitled, "Who remembers Bitcoin? Did you make any money out of it?"

Poke