EU to recommend abolishing DST

wexie · 31-08-2018 3:19pm

GarIT wrote: »

As a couple of users have pointed out that would probably have us at an awkward timezone. It could be partially resolved by rounding to the nearest 30 mins, or even to the nearest hour would be good enough.

Yeah none of this 45 minutes nonsense like they have some places please.

GarIT · 31-08-2018 3:19pm

wexie wrote: »

Doing that would basically mean starting our own timezone of something like GMT -30 or 40 minutes which would just be more awkward.

Not that I completely disagree with your thinking....I just don't think it would be very practical.

I'd be fine with -30, lots of countries do it, -40 would be a bit weird. Time zones are mostly handled by computers too, it wouldn't really make a difference to most things.

Travelling through europe if you've a modern smartphone the time will adjust itself within seconds, and google maps or a good satnav takes time zones into account when planning arrival times.

Riskymove · 31-08-2018 3:26pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Which isn’t GMT.

Anyway the worst thing we could do is winter time all year round, but at least they are not suggesting that.

Actually it seems states would be free to choose time zone

So we could choose to be on GMT but the issue would still be the UK if they retain DST

Fr Tod Umptious · 31-08-2018 3:36pm

topper75 wrote: »

I'd be keen to learn why would you reckon that this morning hour (when most are in a lit classroom/workplace anyway) is the time of the day when we need the daylight. Would the daylight not be used better when kids and 9-5 workers have a chance to use it outdoors?

Here is my take on it.

If we had constant “summer time” then in high summer we would have daylight from approx. 4am to approx. 11pm

In low winter we would have daylight from approx 9.30am to 5.30pm.

In low winter the weather tends to be bad which effects day light, thus it could dark well before 5.30pm most evenings.

The same bad weather would also mean that it could get bright later than 9.30am

So in that case I’d value the morning light much higher than the evening light.

Fr Tod Umptious · 31-08-2018 3:37pm

Infini wrote: »

Actually the winter is when clocks are at their correct position. Its the summer where theyre off by 1hr.

What it would mean though is in the summer the sun would set at 9pm and rise at 3am in ireland during mid summer.

Edit: Noticed that they want to stay on "Summer time" all year round. Definately wouldnt work for us here. Rather we should be on "winter time" all year round as we'd be matched to the solar day nore accurately.

Another reason to keep things as they are

The 3am sunrise is of no use to anyone, but a 9pm sunset in summer is a pain

In summer I value the evening light greater than the morning light.
In winter I value the morning light greater than the evening light

Kermit.de.frog · 31-08-2018 4:10pm

bennyineire wrote: »

Of course we will, not all European laws are the same for each country. This is not the USA.

Each member state can still choose if they want to keep DST or not

Also as you may or may not be aware 6 of the counties on this island are in the U.K. also the majority of our international business dealings are still with the U.K., I can guaranteed that Irish business will kick up a stink if we have a different time than the UK

Biggest proportion of our international trade is with the US, Rest of EU and then UK which is 3rd at 12.5%.

There is no rationale for not changing just because the UK does not want to.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 31-08-2018 4:10pm

GarIT wrote: »

Hence I used the word mean, so average, both averaged geographically and between days. Calculate one overall average time for the whole country and use that.

As a couple of users have pointed out that would probably have us at an awkward timezone. It could be partially resolved by rounding to the nearest 30 mins, or even to the nearest hour would be good enough.

That either gets you back to GMT or GMT+1.

Given geographic differences and differences between days it can't be done exactly but I think solar noon should be 12pm +/- 30 mins or if that can't be done in a way that accommodates business and ease of transitioning +/- 60 minutes, but we should roughly center out day around the average solar noon as much as possible instead of being 90 mins off as we are at the moment.

Ok, we are now back to GMT again. Which means we are two hours out from Europe in summer if this directive passes, and 1 hour out from british summer time if they ignore it.

What’s the fetish with solar noon being the same as clock noon? Provided it’s an hour or two doesn’t make a difference. We aren’t, er farmers (if they even care about solar noon) and you can’t get it exact anyway as the equation of time means there’s up to a +- 15M difference between solar and clock noon throughout the year, even in someplace which is directly average for clock and solar noon on the equinox.

Shenshen · 31-08-2018 4:11pm

pickarooney wrote: »

Would anyone vote for longer working days in summer and shorter in Winter?

I'd vote for it the other way around.

wexie · 31-08-2018 4:13pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

We aren’t, er farmers (if they even care about solar noon)

I think they're probably more concerned with light and dark if anything.

Shenshen · 31-08-2018 4:16pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Here is my take on it.

If we had constant “summer time” then in high summer we would have daylight from approx. 4am to approx. 11pm

In low winter we would have daylight from approx 9.30am to 5.30pm.

In low winter the weather tends to be bad which effects day light, thus it could dark well before 5.30pm most evenings.

The same bad weather would also mean that it could get bright later than 9.30am

So in that case I’d value the morning light much higher than the evening light.

Why, though?
In the mornings, I get out of bed, shower, get dressed and go to work. I then spend my day at work, and return home around 5pm (ish). To have a bit of daylight left to go for a run or other kind of exercise would be invaluable, while it really doesn't make the slightest difference to me if it gets bright at 8.30 or 9.30 - I'd be in work.

GarIT · 31-08-2018 4:16pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

That either gets you back to GMT or GMT+1.

That's fine with me as long as we pick the one appropriate for us rather than just trying to be the same as nearby countries.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 31-08-2018 4:17pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Another reason to keep things as they are

The 3am sunrise is of no use to anyone, but a 9pm sunset in summer is a pain

In summer I value the evening light greater than the morning light.
In winter I value the morning light greater than the evening light

Totally.

With summertime all year January would be a pain in winter but we could accommodate that with later office or school openings for a month.

A month later and the sunrise is an hour earlier anyway.

If we were in winter time now though (ie GMT) sunset would be 7:10 pm tonight in Dublin. 6:50 tonight in London.

People who think they want that don’t really want that. No point complaining about the nights coming in if they never go out.

Conversely if February were in summer time, sunset would be 7pm at the end of the month.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 31-08-2018 4:22pm

GarIT wrote: »

That's fine with me as long as we pick the one appropriate for us rather than just trying to be the same as nearby countries.

Why is it appropriate? What does that even mean? If you want solar noon then use a sun dial.

You know west and Central Europe is all one time zone right? From the Spanish Atlantic to the borders of Belarus. China is all one time zone.

Some are hours out from real local noon. Nobody really cares. Although people don’t like the transitions to DST they don’t care about being exactly solar noon.

BrokenArrows · 31-08-2018 4:23pm

pleas advice wrote: »

'time' is a social construct, maaaaaannnnnnn...

Fixed that for you.

31-08-2018 4:27pm

So in the height of winter we'd get no daylight at all outside of 9 - 5.30. At least on GMT it's bright going into work, I'm not looking forward to commuting both ways in the dark.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 31-08-2018 4:32pm

Flying Fox wrote: »

So in the height of winter we'd get no daylight at all outside of 9 - 5.30. At least on GMT it's bright going into work, I'm not looking forward to commuting both ways in the dark.

It could be bright enough at 5:30 actually as the sun would have just set.

Except for early jan the rest of the year is better. Morning sunlight is lost to most, evening sunlight isn’t.

(Jan 31st would have a sunset of 18:05 in Dublin).

So a few weeks of it being dark in the morning and evening (a lot of that covered by Christmas) and then you to go home in sunlight.

The_Kew_Tour · 31-08-2018 4:38pm

I can understand it to a point.

Always thought be best just maybe do it at end of November and put them back in February.

But I be happy to see change come alright

evolving_doors · 31-08-2018 4:39pm

Lights go out and I can't be saved.....

seamus · 31-08-2018 4:41pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Which isn’t GMT.

Anyway the worst thing we could do is winter time all year round, but at least they are not suggesting that.

Could you imagine sunrise at 3am :eek:

No, fnck that, give me daylight till 11pm.

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

In low winter we would have daylight from approx 9.30am to 5.30pm.

In low winter the weather tends to be bad which effects day light, thus it could dark well before 5.30pm most evenings.

The same bad weather would also mean that it could get bright later than 9.30am

So in that case I’d value the morning light much higher than the evening light.

I don't understand your take on it really. In low winter, it's usually only beginning to brighten up by the time you're getting into work. You have no scope to enjoy the light, because it's in the morning, it's on the way to work. It's wasted time anyway.
Then when you leave, it's dark.

At least if it was a little bright when you're leaving, you can enjoy the last few rays of the day as you skip out of work.

hatrickpatrick · 31-08-2018 4:42pm

I'd really miss it tbh. The day after the clocks go forward is the first proper "yay, winter is here" day, it wouldn't be nearly as pronounced without it.

Fr Tod Umptious · 31-08-2018 5:01pm

seamus wrote: »

Could you imagine sunrise at 3am :eek:

No, fnck that, give me daylight till 11pm.

I don't understand your take on it really. In low winter, it's usually only beginning to brighten up by the time you're getting into work. You have no scope to enjoy the light, because it's in the morning, it's on the way to work. It's wasted time anyway.
Then when you leave, it's dark.

At least if it was a little bright when you're leaving, you can enjoy the last few rays of the day as you skip out of work.

What would happen at weekends ?

A awful lot of people do an awful lot of stuff on weekend mornings, from sports to yard work.

Not getting bring till 10am on a Saturday really would be a pain.

GarIT · 31-08-2018 5:11pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Why is it appropriate? What does that even mean? If you want solar noon then use a sun dial.

You know Central Europe is all one time zone right? From the Spanish Atlantic to the borders of Poland. China is all one time zone.

Some are hours out from real local noon. Nobody really cares. Although people don’t like the transitions to DST they don’t care about being exactly solar noon.

To me it just makes logical sense that noon is actually noon.

I didn't know they were the same, I could have sworn Hungary was +4 but obviously not. Portugal is different though and we're in line with them.

I could also say I don't really care. But it would be nice and given we have to pick some time I think that's the time we should pick, if the sun rose at 10pm I'd get up then and work from 11pm until 8am, it doesn't matter that much.

Saying why should noon be solar noon is like saying why should water freeze at 0 when we could let it freeze at 20. Sure everyone would adjust and everything would be fine but noon at noon works better just like water freezing at 0 works better.

GarIT · 31-08-2018 5:12pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Not getting bring till 10am on a Saturday really would be a pain.

Nobody forces you to get up at any particular number. it doesn't matter if the number on the time is 4, 11 or 50, you can still get up at the same point in the solar cycle.

GarIT · 31-08-2018 5:14pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'd really miss it tbh. The day after the clocks go forward is the first proper "yay, winter is here" day, it wouldn't be nearly as pronounced without it.

I feel the exact opposite. It's more oh, we've now started the annual 6 months of depression, I can't wait for spring.

Harry Palmr · 31-08-2018 5:17pm

Really who needs to be able to read a book by daylight at 11 PM or nearly midnight in the north west (if it's not raining). It's basically wasted light which would be much better deployed in winter in the mornings.

seamus · 31-08-2018 5:19pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

What would happen at weekends ?

A awful lot of people do an awful lot of stuff on weekend mornings, from sports to yard work.

Not getting bring till 10am on a Saturday really would be a pain.

Would it?

How much "stuff" realistically starts before 10am in the winter anyway?

Wouldn't take a lot of effort for people to delay their weekend "stuff" by an hour if full daylight was so important?

hatrickpatrick · 31-08-2018 5:21pm

GarIT wrote: »

I feel the exact opposite. It's more oh, we've now started the annual 6 months of depression, I can't wait for spring.

Most people seem to feel this way to be fair. I'm a night owl, I absolutely adore the October-December period in particular - maybe just because for me, a lot of epic annual social things happen at that time of year so it has some really nice psychological associations.

That's not to say I don't adore Spring and Summer as well, though - I don't really prefer one over the other myself, but the abrupt transition from one to the other with the change of the clock is, for me, a nice "Yay, we're now properly into that time of year!"

Also, the clock going back Halloween weekend means it's dark enough to have an illegal garden fireworks display at the sesh* without it being so late that the neighbours complain

*Please wait until after you've finished setting them off before hitting the drink, folks

RobertKK · 31-08-2018 5:24pm

I took part in this and I voted for to end it and keep summer time.

topper75 · 31-08-2018 5:36pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

If we had constant “summer time” then in high summer we would have daylight from approx. 4am to approx. 11pm

But that is the status quo. We are keeping that under the proposal.

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

In low winter the weather tends to be bad which effects day light, thus it could dark well before 5.30pm most evenings.

The same bad weather would also mean that it could get bright later than 9.30am

No time setting can change weather though. So I wouldn't bring that to the argument.
By the way - if you watch this coming winter - even with gloomy weather - 4.30pm is the earliest real darkness we experience in Ireland even in mid-December when evenings are earliest. That would move forward to 5.30 and would only be endured for 6-8 weeks. For 9to5 workers they could experience a walk after work in daylight for the vast majority of the year. Schoolkids even moreso. The collective benefits of that would be substantial.

Yamanoto · 31-08-2018 5:57pm

I will recommend to the commission that, if you ask the citizens, then you have to do what the citizens say - Jean-Claude Juncker

Therefore, NEVER EVER ask the citizens how they feel about the numbers of economic migrants entering Europe.

Graces7 · 31-08-2018 5:57pm

The really, really good thing is that it would stop folk like ma making embarrassing mistakes as they have not noticed the clocks have moved.... Like thinking shops should be open or mass starting... THAT was a real

Discodog · 31-08-2018 6:28pm

Schools were always given as the reason for changing every year. It was considered dangerous for kids to be travelling in the dark.

iDave · 31-08-2018 6:29pm

The October bank holiday is one of the most depressing days of the years when we move clocks back. Beginning of what feels like perpetual darkness. Would love to keep ST all year.

Sardine · 31-08-2018 6:52pm

Discodog wrote: »

Schools were always given as the reason for changing every year. It was considered dangerous for kids to be travelling in the dark.

The little darlings all get driven to school now anyway. I would be over the moon if we keep summer time.
Does anyone know if this will actually happen?

GhostyMcGhost · 31-08-2018 6:54pm

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

So you're planning on turning up an hour late for everything?

He can watch the six one news live on RTE+1

touts · 31-08-2018 7:01pm

Ireland shouldn't do anything that creates a further divide between us and the US. The time difference is already tricky enough to manage for those working in Multinationals especially in the weeks when the clocks have changed in on one side but not the other yet. That goes double, triple, 10x for the UK. If they don't change we shouldn't even dream of it. The EU don't give two ****s what impact decisions like this have on Ireland so we shouldn't blindly follow their orders.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 31-08-2018 7:08pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Really who needs to be able to read a book by daylight at 11 PM or nearly midnight in the north west (if it's not raining). It's basically wasted light which would be much better deployed in winter in the mornings.

It’s a pretty strawman argument to say that it’s all about reading books by 11pm. It’s about doing outdoor stuff. And it’s not about high summer either - 7pm sunset in February.

That’s a ludicrous argument.

Morning light is wasted though. Even with summer time the 4am sunrise isn’t seen by most, except late nighters.

Fr Tod Umptious · 31-08-2018 7:30pm

Sardine wrote: »

The little darlings all get driven to school now anyway. I would be over the moon if we keep summer time.
Does anyone know if this will actually happen?

Which is better

Kids being driven and dropped off at schools in increasing brightness or in the dark with it not getting bright for another hour.

Many primary schools open between 9 and 9.30.

In the 20 to 15 mins before schools start kids are dropped off and supervised in playgrounds until they line up to go in.

If this change comes in that will be happening in the dark.

That does not happen currently.

Fr Tod Umptious · 31-08-2018 7:31pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

It’s a pretty strawman argument to say that it’s all about reading books by 11pm. It’s about doing outdoor stuff. And it’s not about high summer either - 7pm sunset in February.

That’s a ludicrous argument.

Morning light is wasted though. Even with summer time the 4am sunrise isn’t seen by most, except late nighters.

In the winter its not.

Infini · 31-08-2018 7:31pm

iDave wrote: »

The October bank holiday is one of the most depressing days of the years when we move clocks back. Beginning of what feels like perpetual darkness. Would love to keep ST all year.

Hey I love that time of year it's an extra hour's kip in bed for me! It's March I hate!

31-08-2018 7:33pm

RobertKK wrote: »

I took part in this and I voted for to end it and keep summer time.

I think this must be the first vote that I have voted the same as Robert!!

Franz Von Peppercorn · 31-08-2018 7:33pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Which is better

Kids being driven and dropped off at schools in increasing brightness or in the dark with it not getting bright for another hour.

Many primary schools open between 9 and 9.30.

In the 20 to 15 mins before schools start kids are dropped off and supervised in playgrounds until they line up to go in.

If this change comes in that will be happening in the dark.

That does not happen currently.

Open schools in January one hour later.

Fr Tod Umptious · 31-08-2018 7:35pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Open schools in January one hour later.

Much easier to put clocks forward or backwards twice a year.

31-08-2018 7:35pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Which is better

Kids being driven and dropped off at schools in increasing brightness or in the dark with it not getting bright for another hour.

Many primary schools open between 9 and 9.30.

In the 20 to 15 mins before schools start kids are dropped off and supervised in playgrounds until they line up to go in.

If this change comes in that will be happening in the dark.

That does not happen currently.

And kids can't hang around in semi darkness for 15 mins?
Precious

Infini · 31-08-2018 7:35pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Open schools in January one hour later.

It'd be easier to just not put the clock's forward in March. Less hassle than leaving the country on perma BST time.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 31-08-2018 7:38pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

In the winter its not.

For most people it’s the one month in January that’s the issue. And yes, it’s nice to wake up to brightness but it’s one month.

If it’s winter time all year the sun would set tonight at 7:15 in Dublin. Would have set by now.

My preference would be a short change to winter time for two months but if we are to not have a change then summer time all year is preferable.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 31-08-2018 7:39pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Much easier to put clocks forward or backwards twice a year.

It isn’t. And that’s not the option we are discussing here. I’m happy with changing the times but assuming the EU directive goes ahead : summertime > wintertime.

EdgeCase · 31-08-2018 7:39pm

There are a couple of issues:

1. I'm not aware of the EU having any power to make law in that area. So it's just a suggestion.

2. It would be impractical to have two time zones on the Island of Ireland.

GarIT · 31-08-2018 7:41pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Much easier to put clocks forward or backwards twice a year.

No.

GarIT · 31-08-2018 7:41pm

EdgeCase wrote: »

There are a couple of issues:

1. I'm not aware of the EU having any power to make law in that area. So it's just a suggestion.

2. It would be impractical to have two time zones on the Island of Ireland.

Don't worry the backstop is coming

EU to recommend abolishing DST

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