2019 French Open

shutup · 11-06-2019 1:40pm

walshb wrote: »

None are or were doping...

Just curious how you can be so sure?

walshb · 11-06-2019 1:45pm

shutup wrote: »

Just curious how you can be so sure?

I can't, despite my statement. Nobody can. No point in caring about something that has still to be shown...

To date none have ever tested positive for PEDs. I can only live in the know, not the not knowing.

Would I be shocked if Nadal and the other top players were doping? A little, yes...

It's the constant asking it and wanting it and thinking it from some that is juts stupid.

I'd love to know what exactly they feel and see from these players that gives them this view that they are doping?

Yes, I can understand it in sports's that we can measure, but the likes of tennis, which we can't, then it's far more difficult to quantify or show...

Chivito550 · 11-06-2019 1:46pm

shutup wrote: »

Just curious how you can be so sure?

If you scroll back in time through his posts you’ll see walshb defending Lance Armstrong before he was outed.

shutup · 11-06-2019 1:48pm

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ I was about to post how there were people in the cycling thread passionately denying Armstrong doping until the morning of the Oprah interview.

walshb · 11-06-2019 1:49pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

If you scroll back in time through his posts you’ll see walshb defending Lance Armstrong before he was outed.

And you're constant spouting the same sh1t about Spain and football and tennis, and everyone being a cheat.....

Lance is a proven cheat......

Before proven, it was not known one way or the other.

And the ridiculous use of Lance here shows your incessant infatuation with doping in sport. You're worse than Kimmage.

BazBox · 11-06-2019 1:50pm

walshb wrote: »

I can't, despite my statement. Nobody can. No point in caring about something that has still to be shown...

To date none have ever tested positive for PEDs. I can only live in the know, not the not knowing.

Would I be shocked if Nadal and the other top players were doping? A little, yes...

It's the constant asking it and wanting it and thinking it from some that is juts stupid.

I'd love to know what exactly they feel and see from these players that gives them this view that they are doping?

Yes, I can understand it in sports's that we can measure, but the likes of tennis, which we can't, then it's far more difficult to quantify or show...

And that is it right there, some people will not be satisfied until Nadal is stripped of all his titles because some fella in Spain alleged that athletes are doping.

I don't know the ins and outs of how often they are done, but you would imagine the players are tested a lot throughout the season.

Are they all covered up too?

walshb · 11-06-2019 1:56pm

People need to put their hand on their heart at times and ask what they believe.

Nole, Nadal and Fed to me come across as truly decent, honest, on the level, straight up people....I would be surprised if any decided to intentionally break rules via PEDs....

Sure, they have all been guilty of gamesmanship and poor sportsmanlike conduct from time to time, like so many across all sports but cheating via PEDs is something I don;'t think any would have done...

Same with Messi and Ronaldo; very surprised if these two are or ever were using PEDs to enhance performance...

Chivito550 · 11-06-2019 2:03pm

BazBox wrote: »

And that is it right there, some people will not be satisfied until Nadal is stripped of all his titles because some fella in Spain alleged that athletes are doping.

I don't know the ins and outs of how often they are done, but you would imagine the players are tested a lot throughout the season.

Are they all covered up too?

Some fella in Spain? He was the godfather of doping in Spain. I think when somebody with his profile says that tennis players came to him for sophisticated doping programmes, then it is something that should be taken seriously. He's not just some old man yelling at clouds.

Regarding testing in tennis, it lags way behind the level of testing found in the likes of athletics and tennis.

Essentially, there is a conflict of interest in that the guys who are in charge of promoting the sport are the same guys in charge of anti-doping. Do you really think the ATP are going to bust a name as big as Nadal if he did test positive? Think of the reputational damage to the sport. They’ve seen what has happened in cycling and they don’t want any of that sort of fallout.

I find it staggering that most tennis fans just assume everyone is above board. Incredibly naive.

Sharapova would never have been publicly busted had she kept her big gob shut and not announced everything at a press conference. She basically forced the WTA to take action.

Tennis is one of the most pathetic sports in attitudes to doping, and I say that as a tennis lover.

The attitude of Serena Williams towards anti-doping tells you all you need to know.

Chivito550 · 11-06-2019 2:04pm

walshb wrote: »

Same with Messi and Ronaldo; very surprised if these two are or ever were using PEDs to enhance performance...

Messi was fed HGH as a teenager, paid for in full by FC Barcelona.

Imagine the uproar if the Jamaican Federation gave Usain Bolt HGH when he was 14 to make him into a taller sprinter.

As for Ronaldo, don't make me laugh! Real Madrid have been enormously linked to Dr Fuentes. They are not an ethical club.

Blinky Plebum · 11-06-2019 2:25pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

Messi was fed HGH as a teenager, paid for in full by FC Barcelona.

Imagine the uproar if the Jamaican Federation gave Usain Bolt HGH when he was 14 to make him into a taller sprinter.

As for Ronaldo, don't make me laugh! Real Madrid have been enormously linked to Dr Fuentes. They are not an ethical club.

Messi was diagnosed with growth hormone deficiency when he was 10, he would have been close to being a dwarf without the HGH he received so there was a real reason for him getting the HGH. I don't think you can criticise somebody for allowing their child treatment to stop them being a 5ft tall adult male.

Also the whole world of doping in sport is so completely inconsistent about what is and is not a performance enhancer that it's hard to take seriously anymore.Having a pain killing injection in the middle of a tennis match is allowed by the rules yet if ever there is an example of a performance enhancing drug then surely that is it but it's allowed.

As long as somebody stays within the rules of their sport then that should be all that matters.

Chivito550 · 11-06-2019 2:37pm

Blinky Plebum wrote: »

Messi would have been close to being a dwarf without the HGH he received so there was a real reason for him getting the HGH. I don't think you can criticise somebody for allowing their child treatment to stop them being a 5ft tall adult male.

Also the whole world of doping in sport is so completely inconsistent about what is and is not a performance enhancer that it's hard to take seriously anymore.Having a pain killing injection in the middle of a tennis match is allowed by the rules yet if ever there is an example of a performance enhancing drug then surely that is it but it's allowed.

As long as somebody stays within the rules of their sport then that should be all that matters.

Yes, having HGH to stop you being close to a dwarf. But a professional football club on the other side of the world paying for his treatment in full? Why did they do that? An act of charity for a teenager from a poor part of Argentina?

No. They paid for his treatment so that he would be tall enough to become a football player for them in the future. The reason they paid for his HGH treatment was for nothing other than sporting reasons. This is doping. This doesn’t make Messi a drug cheat, but the process was very much doping: using a banned substance to enhance performance. You can’t really argue against this.

As I said, if it came out that a talented track sprinter, who was very small in early teens, was given HGH treatment at the age of 13, paid for by their national federation, and that athlete went on to win numerous world and Olympic gold medals, there would be absolute uproar.

walshb · 11-06-2019 2:47pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

Messi was fed HGH as a teenager, paid for in full by FC Barcelona.

.

This shows how pathetic your infatuation with wanting to tarnish these people is...

walshb · 11-06-2019 2:49pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

As I said, if it came out that a talented track sprinter, who was very small in early teens, was given HGH treatment at the age of 13, paid for by their national federation, and that athlete went on to win numerous world and Olympic gold medals, there would be absolute uproar.

Not from people with half a brain, and with any amount of common sense.

Blinky Plebum · 11-06-2019 2:52pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

Yes, having HGH to stop you being close to a dwarf. But a professional football club on the other side of the world paying for his treatment in full? Why did they do that? An act of charity for a teenager from a poor part of Argentina?

No. They paid for his treatment so that he would be tall enough to become a football player for them in the future. The reason they paid for his HGH treatment was for nothing other than sporting reasons. This is doping. This doesn’t make Messi a drug cheat, but the process was very much doping: using a banned substance to enhance performance. You can’t really argue against this.

As I said, if it came out that a talented track sprinter, who was very small in early teens, was given HGH treatment at the age of 13, paid for by their national federation, and that athlete went on to win numerous world and Olympic gold medals, there would be absolute uproar.

He was going to be a dwarf without it and he was diagnosed when he was 10, he left Argentina when he was 13.

This isn't a case of turning someone from being 5ft 10 into 6ft 4. It was to fix a genuine handicap. Messi had a genuine medical condition, PED's are not about fixing genuine medical conditions.

Any parent who had a son who was going to be a dwarf would try and get treatment to stop that from happening.

Chivito550 · 11-06-2019 2:57pm

Blinky Plebum wrote: »

He was going to be a dwarf without it and he was diagnosed when he was 10, he left Argentina when he was 13.

This isn't a case of turning someone from being 5ft 10 into 6ft 4. It was to fix a genuine handicap. Messi had a genuine medical condition, PED's are not about fixing genuine medical conditions.

Any parent who had a son who was going to be a dwarf would try and get treatment to stop that from happening.

Of course, and his parents did nothing wrong by looking to have this handicap fixed. My point is that it was paid for by a football club with a vested interest. Barcelona had motives for doing this.

walshb · 11-06-2019 3:12pm

Football club has motives for trying to help a child with them that may just become one of the greatest ever...

How dare they..

Rob2D · 12-06-2019 1:13am

I don't think there's any doping going on at the top. Not in any malicious way at least. I don't know much about PED's, but I heard it said before that there isn't really anything out there you can take that would boost all the things asked of your body and mind in a tennis match. So it isn't exactly worth chancing it.

There might be some dodgy recovery stuff going on, like Sharapova. But that's OK if you ask me. She just used something legal at the time to grab a better rest and everybody lost their minds.

And I've thought about this. Nobody gets mad at Rafa when he absolutely slaughters some low ranked guy who showed up on a Ryanair flight with one bag, two rackets and a banana, maybe after sleeping on a couch. Meanwhile Rafa shows up rested from his private jet, hotel room, cryo chamber and has an entire coaching and fitness team with dietitian and 10 freshly strung rackets and all the drinks and food gels he needs. All those things are worth more than any drug in the world.

So where do you draw the line??? I always found it funny that people never notice any of that, yet will get angry at the slightest hint of a doping allegation.

And why are we talking about this in the French Open thread? Rosy will get mad again :pac:

Chivito550 · 12-06-2019 8:05am

Rob2D wrote: »

I don't think there's any doping going on at the top. Not in any malicious way at least. I don't know much about PED's, but I heard it said before that there isn't really anything out there you can take that would boost all the things asked of your body and mind in a tennis match. So it isn't exactly worth chancing it.

There might be some dodgy recovery stuff going on, like Sharapova. But that's OK if you ask me. She just used something legal at the time to grab a better rest and everybody lost their minds.

And I've thought about this. Nobody gets mad at Rafa when he absolutely slaughters some low ranked guy who showed up on a Ryanair flight with one bag, two rackets and a banana, maybe after sleeping on a couch. Meanwhile Rafa shows up rested from his private jet, hotel room, cryo chamber and has an entire coaching and fitness team with dietitian and 10 freshly strung rackets and all the drinks and food gels he needs. All those things are worth more than any drug in the world.

So where do you draw the line??? I always found it funny that people never notice any of that, yet will get angry at the slightest hint of a doping allegation.

And why are we talking about this in the French Open thread? Rosy will get mad again :pac:

The mind truly boggles reading this. The auld “doping doesn’t help in tennis” line. Yep, because power, speed, endurance, recovery, and returning from injury are total non-factors in tennis.

And of course, nobody would ever chance cheating given the really high risk of being caught with the incredible robust testing the ATP and WTA have, and the really low reward of virtually no prize money for being successful. Yeh why would any tennis player ever dope!

Replace rackets with bikes, and Lance Armstrong had all that stuff too. Utterly meaningless argument.

If, as you say, you know little about PEDs, then don’t bother engaging in this, as you clearly are oblivious to how PEDs work, and the motives people have for cheating.

walshb · 12-06-2019 8:51am

Rob2D wrote: »

I don't think there's any doping going on at the top. Not in any malicious way at least. I don't know much about PED's, but I heard it said before that there isn't really anything out there you can take that would boost all the things asked of your body and mind in a tennis match. So it isn't exactly worth chancing it.

There might be some dodgy recovery stuff going on, like Sharapova. But that's OK if you ask me. She just used something legal at the time to grab a better rest and everybody lost their minds.

And I've thought about this. Nobody gets mad at Rafa when he absolutely slaughters some low ranked guy who showed up on a Ryanair flight with one bag, two rackets and a banana, maybe after sleeping on a couch. Meanwhile Rafa shows up rested from his private jet, hotel room, cryo chamber and has an entire coaching and fitness team with dietitian and 10 freshly strung rackets and all the drinks and food gels he needs. All those things are worth more than any drug in the world.

So where do you draw the line??? I always found it funny that people never notice any of that, yet will get angry at the slightest hint of a doping allegation.

And why are we talking about this in the French Open thread? Rosy will get mad again :pac:

Excellent post..

Rafa and the top players already have everything stacked in their favor. Would PEDs make them even stronger? Sure could, but I don't see them risking it, and I aslo think the top three are honest and decent people....they have standards, morals and fair play.

D biggest performance enhancer in sport is not drugs. It's money and access to money and resources. Oh, and natural talent

Chivito550 · 12-06-2019 9:04am

walshb wrote: »

Excellent post..

Rafa and the top players already have everything stacked in their favor. Would PEDs make them even stronger? Sure could, but I don't see them risking it, and I aslo think the top three are honest and decent people....they have standards, morals and fair play.

D biggest performance enhancer in sport is not drugs. It's money and access to money and resources. Oh, and natural talent

Cathal Lombard: 30 minutes to 27:30 over 10000m

Michelle Smith: Out in the heats at 22 to 3 time Olympic Champion at 26.

Fani Halkia: 56 seconds to 52 seconds over 400m hurdles and Olympic champion in a year, aged 25.

walshb · 12-06-2019 9:12am

Chivito550 wrote: »

Cathal Lombard: 30 minutes to 27:30 over 10000m

Michelle Smith: Out in the heats at 22 to 3 time Olympic Champion at 26.

Fani Halkia: 56 seconds to 52 seconds over 400m hurdles and Olympic champion in a year, aged 25.

And?

Like I said, money, resources, access to money and resources and facilities....

Can't measure this....priceless...you cannot deny that athletes can make gains without resorting to cheating. You can make real gains by having a money and resources and knowledge and all that....

Yes, actual ingested drugs will also help. I am not denying this..

Look at Ben Johnson.....probably best example of how ingested drugs aids performance.

Can you answer yes or no to believing/thinking that Nadal is a doper?

Rob2D · 12-06-2019 9:32am

Chivito550 wrote: »

Replace rackets with bikes, and Lance Armstrong had all that stuff too. Utterly meaningless argument.

If, as you say, you know little about PEDs, then don’t bother engaging in this, as you clearly are oblivious to how PEDs work, and the motives people have for cheating.

But Lance probably still would have won a lot even without the juice. He was just a monkey see, monkey do idiot. Were a couple extra TDF's at the time worth losing it all years later? A smart man would have said no.

Seeing as I'm so stupid, perhaps you can explain it all to me then. The science behind these PED's and how to apply them specifically to an unknown quantity like a tennis match.

Chivito550 · 12-06-2019 9:41am

Rob2D wrote: »

But Lance probably still would have won a lot even without the juice. He was just a monkey see, monkey do idiot. Were a couple extra TDF's at the time worth losing it all years later? A smart man would have said no.

Seeing as I'm so stupid, perhaps you can explain it all to me then. The science behind these PED's and how to apply them specifically to an unknown quantity like a tennis match.

I actually can’t engage with such stupidity. That first paragraph is incredible!

Christy42 · 12-06-2019 9:46am

Rob2D wrote: »

But Lance probably still would have won a lot even without the juice. He was just a monkey see, monkey do idiot. Were a couple extra TDF's at the time worth losing it all years later? A smart man would have said no.

Seeing as I'm so stupid, perhaps you can explain it all to me then. The science behind these PED's and how to apply them specifically to an unknown quantity like a tennis match.

Would he? The level at the top is considered so fine in most sports that a 1% edge is considered massive. And if he was the only (contender) not doping it would be a serious disadvantage. Not excusing him. Cycling is also the best case scenario for doping. If you can keep a higher pace longer you can win.

I reckon all sports learned from that is to not look too hard at their stars for doping. Finding him doping took a big chunk of viewers from the sport and I reckon every sporting body is scared of their stars getting caught.

I won't say anything about individual players as I have no reason to but I would wonder if tennis would want to catch Nadal (or Fed or Djok) if he was doping. It would be a massive hit (unfortunately as it would show they were trying to be clean). Not saying he is doping in any way.

Many times doping tests are describes as IQ tests, simple ones at that.

walshb · 12-06-2019 10:25am

Christy42 wrote: »

I won't say anything about individual players as I have no reason to but I would wonder if tennis would want to catch Nadal (or Fed or Djok) if he was doping. It would be a massive hit (unfortunately as it would show they were trying to be clean). Not saying he is doping in any way.

You are worse than a politician. Keep skirting around the issue.

Do you believe/think Nadal is or was a doper?

And if so, why? What are you seeing from him on a tennis court to make you think or believe this...?

And, does he strike you as someone who would intentionally deceive and cheat to succeed?

Christy42 · 12-06-2019 10:47am

walshb wrote: »

You are worse than a politician. Keep skirting around the issue.

Do you believe/think Nadal is or was a doper?

And if so, why? What are you seeing from him on a tennis court to make you think or believe this...?

And, does he strike you as someone who would intentionally deceive and cheat to succeed?

I don't know. I have only what he shows to the press as his personality and I have no evidence of doping. I would default to innocent till I see evidence but it isn't like I would be world shattering if he was.

walshb · 12-06-2019 11:06am

Christy42 wrote: »

I don't know. I have only what he shows to the press as his personality and I have no evidence of doping. I would default to innocent till I see evidence but it isn't like I would be world shattering if he was.

Ok, and would his name be no different in this view compared to any other top sportsperson? You'd feel the same?

Christy42 · 12-06-2019 3:07pm

walshb wrote: »

Ok, and would his name be no different in this view compared to any other top sportsperson? You'd feel the same?

Yes. I feel accusing him is over the top but every top sports star gets accused of doping in every major sport by people who don't like them.

yerwanthere123 · 12-06-2019 4:29pm

Rob2D wrote: »

I don't think there's any doping going on at the top. Not in any malicious way at least. I don't know much about PED's, but I heard it said before that there isn't really anything out there you can take that would boost all the things asked of your body and mind in a tennis match. So it isn't exactly worth chancing it.

Ah jesus!

walshb wrote: »

Excellent post..

Rafa and the top players already have everything stacked in their favor. Would PEDs make them even stronger?

Oh my god!! :eek:

walshb · 12-06-2019 6:44pm

yerwanthere123 wrote: »

Ah jesus!

Oh my god!! :eek:

Yet you conveniently left out my answer to my own rhetorical question..

2019 French Open

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