2019 French Open

walshb · 10-06-2019 1:55pm

yerwanthere123 wrote: »

Ah, so this is the_monkey's latest account :pac: Tbf, The doping is probably pretty widespread on the tour. If Nadal is, then there's a lot more of them doing it.

How do you now it's pretty widespread?

Have you any evidence her to label the sport like so?

yerwanthere123 · 10-06-2019 2:05pm

walshb wrote: »

How do you now it's pretty widespread?

Have you any evidence her to label the sport like so?

Oh I dunno. I find it a little suspicious that most of the time it's only the players in the lower ranks that get caught out. Then there's players who take breaks for months at a time and come back stronger than ever. Players who previously struggled/pulled out of matches becoming phenemonal athletes with seemingly superhuman endurance. The limited drug testing, the fact that on the rare occasions that players are caught they're allowed to try and cover it up (Cilic, Agassi) until it gets leaked elsewhere. The TUE's, those Spanish blood bags that never saw the light of day etc.

walshb · 10-06-2019 3:36pm

This talk of superhuman endurance needs to end....

How exactly are you measuring it?

Superhuman endurance is not needed for tennis matches...

They have plenty breaks and stops during their matches....

What are people seeing here during these matches that somehow leads them to think "has to be PEDs?"

lostcat · 10-06-2019 3:47pm

jr86 wrote: »

Interestingly ND's Wimbledon wins have coincided with 'disappointing' French Open exits

2011 - lost semi as heavy favourite to Federer
2014 - ok in fairness no great shame in ever losing to Nadal at RG, but was a very underwhelming performance after pushing him to the brink the year before
2015 - lost final to Stan as heavy favourite after knocking out Nadal
2018 - lost quarters to unseeded Checcinato as heavy favourite

he has a lot on the line every time he plays the FO - trying to win one, then trying to be the first person to win each slam twice, to hold all at the same time, etc.. as well as just trying to chase down nadal/federer.

the pressure gets to him on occasion (this year, the year stan bet him) and other years he played very well but was just outplayed (federer in 11, the year he took nadal to 9- 7 in the 5th)...

it is to him what the Aus Open is to Nadal, just seems to be the one where all the misfortune aligns

it look slike he just loosens up when he hits the grass afterwards

Pero_Bueno · 10-06-2019 9:10pm

OK leaving out the drug ****e, JuanBerrosa has a point, despite Djokovic winning 3 out of 4 last slams Nadal still dominates.
Nadal would have blasted through AO without dropping a set had it not been for Djokovic in the final.
He would have won Wimbledon easily too.
OK Del Petro beat him in the US but he was injured.

So really Nadal could easily have just won his 5th slam in a row.

As he said and it is a good point, Nadal only needs to worry about Djokovic - literally, just one man - and he is getting weaker.
Nadal is getting stronger.

Djokovic doesn't need to worry about Nadal - but they are now for the foreseeable future seeded to meet in finals only, so he does need to worry about the other lads - the new guys can actually beat Djokovic - not Nadal ironically.

So what we will see happening a lot is someone doing Nadal a favour and dispatch Nole, letting him blast his way through the tournaments.
Can honestly see Nadal winning (easily too) another 5/6 maybe 7 slams.

dominatinMC · 10-06-2019 9:23pm

Christ, there is a lot of ****e being spouted here in the aftermath of Nadals win! Some claiming that Nadal is "stronger" than ever, with the implication being that some sort of doping regime is responsible for this. Come on, be realistic, he is now extremely injury-prone (even more so than before, if that were possible!). His movement and speed around the court have obviously declined with age (as expected), so I'm really not sure where the "stronger" evidence is. From what I've seen of Nadal, he has compensated for his declining movement+speed by improving other aspects of his game (serve, backhand, net-play). I wouldn't necessarily say he is stronger in a physical sense, but has certainly improved weaker elements of his game.

Angliru · 10-06-2019 10:52pm

Not saying any of them are definitely doping or definitely clean but out of the big three Nadal's career progress is probably the most believable. Anyone who thinks he's stronger than ever needs to watch some prime Nadal footage. The guy has lost chunks of every physical attribute he had. He's become a far more shrewd, consistent and polished player technique wise and mentally too which is why he has kept up a high standard when his physical attributed faded. I find it funny people always revert back to the doping whenever Nadal shines again but no mention of Federer's bat**** crazy lazarus revival at a much later age or Djokovic going from 100 to zero to arguably beyond 100 again. Far more extreme turn arounds than Nadal seemingly overcoming niggling injuries, which he still suffers from on occasion.

Now I'm not naive, I understand the tiny margins that exist between great and elite and most of all I'm aware of tennis terrible doping checks, almost as bad as the NBA but anyone cribbing about Nadal and Nadal alone needs their head checked, or at least their eyes.

dominatinMC · 10-06-2019 11:21pm

Angliru wrote: »

Not saying any of them are definitely doping or definitely clean but out of the big three Nadal's career progress is probably the most believable. Anyone who thinks he's stronger than ever needs to watch some prime Nadal footage. The guy has lost chunks of every physical attribute he had. He's become a far more shrewd, consistent and polished player technique wise and mentally too which is why he has kept up a high standard when his physical attributed faded. I find it funny people always revert back to the doping whenever Nadal shines again but no mention of Federer's bat**** crazy lazarus revival at a much later age or Djokovic going from 100 to zero to arguably beyond 100 again. Far more extreme turn arounds than Nadal seemingly overcoming niggling injuries, which he still suffers from on occasion.

Now I'm not naive, I understand the tiny margins that exist between great and elite and most of all I'm aware of tennis terrible doping checks, almost as bad as the NBA but anyone cribbing about Nadal and Nadal alone needs their head checked, or at least their eyes.

100% agree. FWIW, I've always been slightly suspicious of Djokovic, who went from being unable to finish a Bo5 match to being a complete monster in Bo5. All this due to a gluten free diet. Of course, it's entirely plausible that eliminating gluten is the reason for his success, but that always struck me as more suspect than anything Nadal has ever done. I guess we're gone a bit off topic anyway! :pac:

TomSweeney · 11-06-2019 7:39am

dominatinMC wrote: »

Christ, there is a lot of ****e being spouted here in the aftermath of Nadals win! Some claiming that Nadal is "stronger" than ever, with the implication being that some sort of doping regime is responsible for this. Come on, be realistic, he is now extremely injury-prone (even more so than before, if that were possible!). His movement and speed around the court have obviously declined with age (as expected), so I'm really not sure where the "stronger" evidence is. From what I've seen of Nadal, he has compensated for his declining movement+speed by improving other aspects of his game (serve, backhand, net-play). I wouldn't necessarily say he is stronger in a physical sense, but has certainly improved weaker elements of his game.

Well I understand the "stronger" aspect here as not physically so, but as a player - so he has changed these aspects of his game to make up for his less speed etc.
And overall he is better.
Now whether he'll win 7 more slams ? trolling here ??
But he is on 18 now and should at least equal Federer on FO's alone.

Thats pretty much guaranteed, will most likely surpass him.
I just hope he doesn't win another AO - can't have him having the double career slam.

Chivito550 · 11-06-2019 8:48am

Pero_Bueno wrote: »

OK leaving out the drug ****e, JuanBerrosa has a point, despite Djokovic winning 3 out of 4 last slams Nadal still dominates.
Nadal would have blasted through AO without dropping a set had it not been for Djokovic in the final.
He would have won Wimbledon easily too.
OK Del Petro beat him in the US but he was injured.

So really Nadal could easily have just won his 5th slam in a row.

As he said and it is a good point, Nadal only needs to worry about Djokovic - literally, just one man - and he is getting weaker.
Nadal is getting stronger.

Djokovic doesn't need to worry about Nadal - but they are now for the foreseeable future seeded to meet in finals only, so he does need to worry about the other lads - the new guys can actually beat Djokovic - not Nadal ironically.

So what we will see happening a lot is someone doing Nadal a favour and dispatch Nole, letting him blast his way through the tournaments.
Can honestly see Nadal winning (easily too) another 5/6 maybe 7 slams.

Bit OTT. Del Potro had the beating of Nadal at Wimbledon last year. There was nothing in it. Nadal got by Thiem by a whisker at the US Open, which battered him up for Del Potro in the semi final (the injury only ever appears when he’s losing!). Cilic wore him down in Oz, and Dimitriov and Zverev bottled it in Oz the previous year.

Going back, Nadal was always more susceptible than Federer and Djokovic to going out to lowly ranked players. His Wimbledon record over the past 7 years shows that.

Chivito550 · 11-06-2019 9:22am

Nadal has been quoted as saying he has missed 15 grand slams due to injury. This is complete fabrication.

walshb · 11-06-2019 10:04am

Chivito550 wrote: »

Nadal has been quoted as saying he has missed 15 grand slams due to injury. This is complete fabrication.

Did he miss 15?

josip · 11-06-2019 10:15am

I lost, I think, around 15 or even more Grand Slams in my career for injuries,” Nadal said.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tennis-frenchopen-nadal/sanguine-nadal-says-he-is-not-obsessed-about-federers-record-idUSKCN1TA0RX

So perhaps he includes in that 15 those Grand Slams that he competed in while injured but was beaten?
I suspect something was lost in translation here, because even if he believes that, he'd have more cop on than to say it.

BazBox · 11-06-2019 10:56am

One of the greatest players in his sport, but he only wins cos he is doping:rolleyes:

The man barely has any use left in his knees, has lost a load of muscle and had to change the way he plays. Yeah must be those superdrugs.

His pure dedication to the sport has to be admired. I remember in 2005 when he won the FO, then got knocked out early at Wimbledon by someone and everyone said he was just a Clay player, but he stayed on to watch Federer's run to the final to learn from the best.

walshb · 11-06-2019 11:07am

BazBox wrote: »

One of the greatest players in his sport, but he only wins cos he is doping:rolleyes:

The man barely has any use left in his knees, has lost a load of muscle and had to change the way he plays. Yeah must be those superdrugs.

His pure dedication to the sport has to be admired. I remember in 2005 when he won the FO, then got knocked out early at Wimbledon by someone and everyone said he was just a Clay player, but he stayed on to watch Federer's run to the final to learn from the best.

Spot on....

There are some knobs out there on this constant cheating/doping angle for anyone who seems to succeed...

Hector Savage · 11-06-2019 11:14am

walshb wrote: »

Spot on....

There are some knobs out there on this constant cheating/doping angle for anyone who seems to succeed...

ONE poster has mentioned doping ... ONE!!!

walshb · 11-06-2019 11:35am

Hector Savage wrote: »

ONE poster has mentioned doping ... ONE!!!

It was a general observation I made. Not specifically related to this thread..

Chivito550 · 11-06-2019 12:16pm

josip wrote: »

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tennis-frenchopen-nadal/sanguine-nadal-says-he-is-not-obsessed-about-federers-record-idUSKCN1TA0RX

So perhaps he includes in that 15 those Grand Slams that he competed in while injured but was beaten?
I suspect something was lost in translation here, because even if he believes that, he'd have more cop on than to say it.

Silly to even say that:

1) If you toe the line, you leave the pre-planned excuses about not being fully fit at home.
2) He gets injured a lot because of his style of play. This is not misfortune. This is self-inflicted.

Chivito550 · 11-06-2019 12:22pm

Spain has a VERY bad culture regarding doping in sport. Operation Puerto was a real eye opener to how endemic the problem is there. Dr Fuentes said he worked with people from all sports, such as football, tennis, athletics, basketball, yet only the cyclists names were ordered to be made public by the judge. There were countless others in the files, but their names were protected, while the cyclists were thrown under a bus. Football is part of life there, and is such a huge part of their economy, it was protected by people in high places. But it is well known high profile footballers from the biggest clubs in La Liga were on his books.

Ditto for tennis players, who were also protected. Does this mean Nadal was one of the names? Not at all. But tennis players were on his books, and Nadal was at the time, the biggest name in Spanish tennis.

None of this proves that Nadal is/was doping, but it should make people ask questions. Why were the cyclists named and shamed while the Spanish stars from football and tennis protected?

BazBox wrote: »

One of the greatest players in his sport, but he only wins cos he is doping:rolleyes:

The man barely has any use left in his knees, has lost a load of muscle and had to change the way he plays. Yeah must be those superdrugs.

His pure dedication to the sport has to be admired. I remember in 2005 when he won the FO, then got knocked out early at Wimbledon by someone and everyone said he was just a Clay player, but he stayed on to watch Federer's run to the final to learn from the best.

Again, I’m not saying that Nadal is or isn’t doping, but you do realise that there are many different benefits from doping? Doping allows somebody to recover from incredibly hard sessions, to go again the next day. Doping allows sportspeople to return from injury faster than if done by natural means. Doping allows somebody to have more endurance so they can last deep into 5 sets and not falter. There’s more to doping than bulking up. Not all dopers look like Ben Johnson.

Dopers train incredibly hard. Many have incredible work ethic. Michelle Smith was one of the hardest trainers there were. The drugs allowed her to train hard.

walshb · 11-06-2019 1:11pm

So, really, this hunch is based off one man who is Spanish, and there are some issues in Spain.....

Nadal is not doping, and likely never did.

Can easily replace his name with Federer or Murray or Nole, and some others....

None are or were doping...

shutup · 11-06-2019 1:40pm

walshb wrote: »

None are or were doping...

Just curious how you can be so sure?

walshb · 11-06-2019 1:45pm

shutup wrote: »

Just curious how you can be so sure?

I can't, despite my statement. Nobody can. No point in caring about something that has still to be shown...

To date none have ever tested positive for PEDs. I can only live in the know, not the not knowing.

Would I be shocked if Nadal and the other top players were doping? A little, yes...

It's the constant asking it and wanting it and thinking it from some that is juts stupid.

I'd love to know what exactly they feel and see from these players that gives them this view that they are doping?

Yes, I can understand it in sports's that we can measure, but the likes of tennis, which we can't, then it's far more difficult to quantify or show...

Chivito550 · 11-06-2019 1:46pm

shutup wrote: »

Just curious how you can be so sure?

If you scroll back in time through his posts you’ll see walshb defending Lance Armstrong before he was outed.

shutup · 11-06-2019 1:48pm

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ I was about to post how there were people in the cycling thread passionately denying Armstrong doping until the morning of the Oprah interview.

walshb · 11-06-2019 1:49pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

If you scroll back in time through his posts you’ll see walshb defending Lance Armstrong before he was outed.

And you're constant spouting the same sh1t about Spain and football and tennis, and everyone being a cheat.....

Lance is a proven cheat......

Before proven, it was not known one way or the other.

And the ridiculous use of Lance here shows your incessant infatuation with doping in sport. You're worse than Kimmage.

BazBox · 11-06-2019 1:50pm

walshb wrote: »

I can't, despite my statement. Nobody can. No point in caring about something that has still to be shown...

To date none have ever tested positive for PEDs. I can only live in the know, not the not knowing.

Would I be shocked if Nadal and the other top players were doping? A little, yes...

It's the constant asking it and wanting it and thinking it from some that is juts stupid.

I'd love to know what exactly they feel and see from these players that gives them this view that they are doping?

Yes, I can understand it in sports's that we can measure, but the likes of tennis, which we can't, then it's far more difficult to quantify or show...

And that is it right there, some people will not be satisfied until Nadal is stripped of all his titles because some fella in Spain alleged that athletes are doping.

I don't know the ins and outs of how often they are done, but you would imagine the players are tested a lot throughout the season.

Are they all covered up too?

walshb · 11-06-2019 1:56pm

People need to put their hand on their heart at times and ask what they believe.

Nole, Nadal and Fed to me come across as truly decent, honest, on the level, straight up people....I would be surprised if any decided to intentionally break rules via PEDs....

Sure, they have all been guilty of gamesmanship and poor sportsmanlike conduct from time to time, like so many across all sports but cheating via PEDs is something I don;'t think any would have done...

Same with Messi and Ronaldo; very surprised if these two are or ever were using PEDs to enhance performance...

Chivito550 · 11-06-2019 2:03pm

BazBox wrote: »

And that is it right there, some people will not be satisfied until Nadal is stripped of all his titles because some fella in Spain alleged that athletes are doping.

I don't know the ins and outs of how often they are done, but you would imagine the players are tested a lot throughout the season.

Are they all covered up too?

Some fella in Spain? He was the godfather of doping in Spain. I think when somebody with his profile says that tennis players came to him for sophisticated doping programmes, then it is something that should be taken seriously. He's not just some old man yelling at clouds.

Regarding testing in tennis, it lags way behind the level of testing found in the likes of athletics and tennis.

Essentially, there is a conflict of interest in that the guys who are in charge of promoting the sport are the same guys in charge of anti-doping. Do you really think the ATP are going to bust a name as big as Nadal if he did test positive? Think of the reputational damage to the sport. They’ve seen what has happened in cycling and they don’t want any of that sort of fallout.

I find it staggering that most tennis fans just assume everyone is above board. Incredibly naive.

Sharapova would never have been publicly busted had she kept her big gob shut and not announced everything at a press conference. She basically forced the WTA to take action.

Tennis is one of the most pathetic sports in attitudes to doping, and I say that as a tennis lover.

The attitude of Serena Williams towards anti-doping tells you all you need to know.

Chivito550 · 11-06-2019 2:04pm

walshb wrote: »

Same with Messi and Ronaldo; very surprised if these two are or ever were using PEDs to enhance performance...

Messi was fed HGH as a teenager, paid for in full by FC Barcelona.

Imagine the uproar if the Jamaican Federation gave Usain Bolt HGH when he was 14 to make him into a taller sprinter.

As for Ronaldo, don't make me laugh! Real Madrid have been enormously linked to Dr Fuentes. They are not an ethical club.

Blinky Plebum · 11-06-2019 2:25pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

Messi was fed HGH as a teenager, paid for in full by FC Barcelona.

Imagine the uproar if the Jamaican Federation gave Usain Bolt HGH when he was 14 to make him into a taller sprinter.

As for Ronaldo, don't make me laugh! Real Madrid have been enormously linked to Dr Fuentes. They are not an ethical club.

Messi was diagnosed with growth hormone deficiency when he was 10, he would have been close to being a dwarf without the HGH he received so there was a real reason for him getting the HGH. I don't think you can criticise somebody for allowing their child treatment to stop them being a 5ft tall adult male.

Also the whole world of doping in sport is so completely inconsistent about what is and is not a performance enhancer that it's hard to take seriously anymore.Having a pain killing injection in the middle of a tennis match is allowed by the rules yet if ever there is an example of a performance enhancing drug then surely that is it but it's allowed.

As long as somebody stays within the rules of their sport then that should be all that matters.

Chivito550 · 11-06-2019 2:37pm

Blinky Plebum wrote: »

Messi would have been close to being a dwarf without the HGH he received so there was a real reason for him getting the HGH. I don't think you can criticise somebody for allowing their child treatment to stop them being a 5ft tall adult male.

Also the whole world of doping in sport is so completely inconsistent about what is and is not a performance enhancer that it's hard to take seriously anymore.Having a pain killing injection in the middle of a tennis match is allowed by the rules yet if ever there is an example of a performance enhancing drug then surely that is it but it's allowed.

As long as somebody stays within the rules of their sport then that should be all that matters.

Yes, having HGH to stop you being close to a dwarf. But a professional football club on the other side of the world paying for his treatment in full? Why did they do that? An act of charity for a teenager from a poor part of Argentina?

No. They paid for his treatment so that he would be tall enough to become a football player for them in the future. The reason they paid for his HGH treatment was for nothing other than sporting reasons. This is doping. This doesn’t make Messi a drug cheat, but the process was very much doping: using a banned substance to enhance performance. You can’t really argue against this.

As I said, if it came out that a talented track sprinter, who was very small in early teens, was given HGH treatment at the age of 13, paid for by their national federation, and that athlete went on to win numerous world and Olympic gold medals, there would be absolute uproar.

walshb · 11-06-2019 2:47pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

Messi was fed HGH as a teenager, paid for in full by FC Barcelona.

.

This shows how pathetic your infatuation with wanting to tarnish these people is...

walshb · 11-06-2019 2:49pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

As I said, if it came out that a talented track sprinter, who was very small in early teens, was given HGH treatment at the age of 13, paid for by their national federation, and that athlete went on to win numerous world and Olympic gold medals, there would be absolute uproar.

Not from people with half a brain, and with any amount of common sense.

Blinky Plebum · 11-06-2019 2:52pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

Yes, having HGH to stop you being close to a dwarf. But a professional football club on the other side of the world paying for his treatment in full? Why did they do that? An act of charity for a teenager from a poor part of Argentina?

No. They paid for his treatment so that he would be tall enough to become a football player for them in the future. The reason they paid for his HGH treatment was for nothing other than sporting reasons. This is doping. This doesn’t make Messi a drug cheat, but the process was very much doping: using a banned substance to enhance performance. You can’t really argue against this.

As I said, if it came out that a talented track sprinter, who was very small in early teens, was given HGH treatment at the age of 13, paid for by their national federation, and that athlete went on to win numerous world and Olympic gold medals, there would be absolute uproar.

He was going to be a dwarf without it and he was diagnosed when he was 10, he left Argentina when he was 13.

This isn't a case of turning someone from being 5ft 10 into 6ft 4. It was to fix a genuine handicap. Messi had a genuine medical condition, PED's are not about fixing genuine medical conditions.

Any parent who had a son who was going to be a dwarf would try and get treatment to stop that from happening.

Chivito550 · 11-06-2019 2:57pm

Blinky Plebum wrote: »

He was going to be a dwarf without it and he was diagnosed when he was 10, he left Argentina when he was 13.

This isn't a case of turning someone from being 5ft 10 into 6ft 4. It was to fix a genuine handicap. Messi had a genuine medical condition, PED's are not about fixing genuine medical conditions.

Any parent who had a son who was going to be a dwarf would try and get treatment to stop that from happening.

Of course, and his parents did nothing wrong by looking to have this handicap fixed. My point is that it was paid for by a football club with a vested interest. Barcelona had motives for doing this.

walshb · 11-06-2019 3:12pm

Football club has motives for trying to help a child with them that may just become one of the greatest ever...

How dare they..

Rob2D · 12-06-2019 1:13am

I don't think there's any doping going on at the top. Not in any malicious way at least. I don't know much about PED's, but I heard it said before that there isn't really anything out there you can take that would boost all the things asked of your body and mind in a tennis match. So it isn't exactly worth chancing it.

There might be some dodgy recovery stuff going on, like Sharapova. But that's OK if you ask me. She just used something legal at the time to grab a better rest and everybody lost their minds.

And I've thought about this. Nobody gets mad at Rafa when he absolutely slaughters some low ranked guy who showed up on a Ryanair flight with one bag, two rackets and a banana, maybe after sleeping on a couch. Meanwhile Rafa shows up rested from his private jet, hotel room, cryo chamber and has an entire coaching and fitness team with dietitian and 10 freshly strung rackets and all the drinks and food gels he needs. All those things are worth more than any drug in the world.

So where do you draw the line??? I always found it funny that people never notice any of that, yet will get angry at the slightest hint of a doping allegation.

And why are we talking about this in the French Open thread? Rosy will get mad again :pac:

Chivito550 · 12-06-2019 8:05am

Rob2D wrote: »

I don't think there's any doping going on at the top. Not in any malicious way at least. I don't know much about PED's, but I heard it said before that there isn't really anything out there you can take that would boost all the things asked of your body and mind in a tennis match. So it isn't exactly worth chancing it.

There might be some dodgy recovery stuff going on, like Sharapova. But that's OK if you ask me. She just used something legal at the time to grab a better rest and everybody lost their minds.

And I've thought about this. Nobody gets mad at Rafa when he absolutely slaughters some low ranked guy who showed up on a Ryanair flight with one bag, two rackets and a banana, maybe after sleeping on a couch. Meanwhile Rafa shows up rested from his private jet, hotel room, cryo chamber and has an entire coaching and fitness team with dietitian and 10 freshly strung rackets and all the drinks and food gels he needs. All those things are worth more than any drug in the world.

So where do you draw the line??? I always found it funny that people never notice any of that, yet will get angry at the slightest hint of a doping allegation.

And why are we talking about this in the French Open thread? Rosy will get mad again :pac:

The mind truly boggles reading this. The auld “doping doesn’t help in tennis” line. Yep, because power, speed, endurance, recovery, and returning from injury are total non-factors in tennis.

And of course, nobody would ever chance cheating given the really high risk of being caught with the incredible robust testing the ATP and WTA have, and the really low reward of virtually no prize money for being successful. Yeh why would any tennis player ever dope!

Replace rackets with bikes, and Lance Armstrong had all that stuff too. Utterly meaningless argument.

If, as you say, you know little about PEDs, then don’t bother engaging in this, as you clearly are oblivious to how PEDs work, and the motives people have for cheating.

walshb · 12-06-2019 8:51am

Rob2D wrote: »

I don't think there's any doping going on at the top. Not in any malicious way at least. I don't know much about PED's, but I heard it said before that there isn't really anything out there you can take that would boost all the things asked of your body and mind in a tennis match. So it isn't exactly worth chancing it.

There might be some dodgy recovery stuff going on, like Sharapova. But that's OK if you ask me. She just used something legal at the time to grab a better rest and everybody lost their minds.

And I've thought about this. Nobody gets mad at Rafa when he absolutely slaughters some low ranked guy who showed up on a Ryanair flight with one bag, two rackets and a banana, maybe after sleeping on a couch. Meanwhile Rafa shows up rested from his private jet, hotel room, cryo chamber and has an entire coaching and fitness team with dietitian and 10 freshly strung rackets and all the drinks and food gels he needs. All those things are worth more than any drug in the world.

So where do you draw the line??? I always found it funny that people never notice any of that, yet will get angry at the slightest hint of a doping allegation.

And why are we talking about this in the French Open thread? Rosy will get mad again :pac:

Excellent post..

Rafa and the top players already have everything stacked in their favor. Would PEDs make them even stronger? Sure could, but I don't see them risking it, and I aslo think the top three are honest and decent people....they have standards, morals and fair play.

D biggest performance enhancer in sport is not drugs. It's money and access to money and resources. Oh, and natural talent

Chivito550 · 12-06-2019 9:04am

walshb wrote: »

Excellent post..

Rafa and the top players already have everything stacked in their favor. Would PEDs make them even stronger? Sure could, but I don't see them risking it, and I aslo think the top three are honest and decent people....they have standards, morals and fair play.

D biggest performance enhancer in sport is not drugs. It's money and access to money and resources. Oh, and natural talent

Cathal Lombard: 30 minutes to 27:30 over 10000m

Michelle Smith: Out in the heats at 22 to 3 time Olympic Champion at 26.

Fani Halkia: 56 seconds to 52 seconds over 400m hurdles and Olympic champion in a year, aged 25.

walshb · 12-06-2019 9:12am

Chivito550 wrote: »

Cathal Lombard: 30 minutes to 27:30 over 10000m

Michelle Smith: Out in the heats at 22 to 3 time Olympic Champion at 26.

Fani Halkia: 56 seconds to 52 seconds over 400m hurdles and Olympic champion in a year, aged 25.

And?

Like I said, money, resources, access to money and resources and facilities....

Can't measure this....priceless...you cannot deny that athletes can make gains without resorting to cheating. You can make real gains by having a money and resources and knowledge and all that....

Yes, actual ingested drugs will also help. I am not denying this..

Look at Ben Johnson.....probably best example of how ingested drugs aids performance.

Can you answer yes or no to believing/thinking that Nadal is a doper?

Rob2D · 12-06-2019 9:32am

Chivito550 wrote: »

Replace rackets with bikes, and Lance Armstrong had all that stuff too. Utterly meaningless argument.

If, as you say, you know little about PEDs, then don’t bother engaging in this, as you clearly are oblivious to how PEDs work, and the motives people have for cheating.

But Lance probably still would have won a lot even without the juice. He was just a monkey see, monkey do idiot. Were a couple extra TDF's at the time worth losing it all years later? A smart man would have said no.

Seeing as I'm so stupid, perhaps you can explain it all to me then. The science behind these PED's and how to apply them specifically to an unknown quantity like a tennis match.

Chivito550 · 12-06-2019 9:41am

Rob2D wrote: »

But Lance probably still would have won a lot even without the juice. He was just a monkey see, monkey do idiot. Were a couple extra TDF's at the time worth losing it all years later? A smart man would have said no.

Seeing as I'm so stupid, perhaps you can explain it all to me then. The science behind these PED's and how to apply them specifically to an unknown quantity like a tennis match.

I actually can’t engage with such stupidity. That first paragraph is incredible!

Christy42 · 12-06-2019 9:46am

Rob2D wrote: »

But Lance probably still would have won a lot even without the juice. He was just a monkey see, monkey do idiot. Were a couple extra TDF's at the time worth losing it all years later? A smart man would have said no.

Seeing as I'm so stupid, perhaps you can explain it all to me then. The science behind these PED's and how to apply them specifically to an unknown quantity like a tennis match.

Would he? The level at the top is considered so fine in most sports that a 1% edge is considered massive. And if he was the only (contender) not doping it would be a serious disadvantage. Not excusing him. Cycling is also the best case scenario for doping. If you can keep a higher pace longer you can win.

I reckon all sports learned from that is to not look too hard at their stars for doping. Finding him doping took a big chunk of viewers from the sport and I reckon every sporting body is scared of their stars getting caught.

I won't say anything about individual players as I have no reason to but I would wonder if tennis would want to catch Nadal (or Fed or Djok) if he was doping. It would be a massive hit (unfortunately as it would show they were trying to be clean). Not saying he is doping in any way.

Many times doping tests are describes as IQ tests, simple ones at that.

walshb · 12-06-2019 10:25am

Christy42 wrote: »

I won't say anything about individual players as I have no reason to but I would wonder if tennis would want to catch Nadal (or Fed or Djok) if he was doping. It would be a massive hit (unfortunately as it would show they were trying to be clean). Not saying he is doping in any way.

You are worse than a politician. Keep skirting around the issue.

Do you believe/think Nadal is or was a doper?

And if so, why? What are you seeing from him on a tennis court to make you think or believe this...?

And, does he strike you as someone who would intentionally deceive and cheat to succeed?

Christy42 · 12-06-2019 10:47am

walshb wrote: »

You are worse than a politician. Keep skirting around the issue.

Do you believe/think Nadal is or was a doper?

And if so, why? What are you seeing from him on a tennis court to make you think or believe this...?

And, does he strike you as someone who would intentionally deceive and cheat to succeed?

I don't know. I have only what he shows to the press as his personality and I have no evidence of doping. I would default to innocent till I see evidence but it isn't like I would be world shattering if he was.

walshb · 12-06-2019 11:06am

Christy42 wrote: »

I don't know. I have only what he shows to the press as his personality and I have no evidence of doping. I would default to innocent till I see evidence but it isn't like I would be world shattering if he was.

Ok, and would his name be no different in this view compared to any other top sportsperson? You'd feel the same?

Christy42 · 12-06-2019 3:07pm

walshb wrote: »

Ok, and would his name be no different in this view compared to any other top sportsperson? You'd feel the same?

Yes. I feel accusing him is over the top but every top sports star gets accused of doping in every major sport by people who don't like them.

yerwanthere123 · 12-06-2019 4:29pm

Rob2D wrote: »

I don't think there's any doping going on at the top. Not in any malicious way at least. I don't know much about PED's, but I heard it said before that there isn't really anything out there you can take that would boost all the things asked of your body and mind in a tennis match. So it isn't exactly worth chancing it.

Ah jesus!

walshb wrote: »

Excellent post..

Rafa and the top players already have everything stacked in their favor. Would PEDs make them even stronger?

Oh my god!! :eek:

walshb · 12-06-2019 6:44pm

yerwanthere123 wrote: »

Ah jesus!

Oh my god!! :eek:

Yet you conveniently left out my answer to my own rhetorical question..

2019 French Open

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