Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

Scottmactom · 23-04-2020 8:42am

Faugheen wrote: »

I think Ben Murphy (the replacement 9 for the Irish 20s) has more upside than all three of them. Still underage for Irish 20s next year too.

Not sure Murphy is even the best 9 at his age grade in leinster. Talented for sure but you'd wonder if he had a different surname if he'd have progressed so quickly..

certainly Rob Gilsenan(UCD) and William Reilly(MU Barnhall) are two 9's to keep an eye on along with Murphy, whenever rugby returns...

Faugheen · 23-04-2020 9:59am

Scottmactom wrote: »

Not sure Murphy is even the best 9 at his age grade in leinster. Talented for sure but you'd wonder if he had a different surname if he'd have progressed so quickly..

certainly Rob Gilsenan(UCD) and William Reilly(MU Barnhall) are two 9's to keep an eye on along with Murphy, whenever rugby returns...

Having seen him play, he is definitely a very talented 9. Of course having his father helps but it shouldn’t diminish from the fact he has always been picked ahead of Gilsenin when both were fit. I haven’t seen anything of Reilly to comment.

Scottmactom · 23-04-2020 10:18am

Faugheen wrote: »

Having seen him play, he is definitely a very talented 9. Of course having his father helps but it shouldn’t diminish from the fact he has always been picked ahead of Gilsenin when both were fit. I haven’t seen anything of Reilly to comment.

When have both been fit and competing in same side? 2018 leinster schools side? where they both got a lot of gametime rotating at 9.

Since then Gilsenan had a huge SCT campaign for Michaels ending in injury in the final, causing him to miss irish u18 schools and leinster 19's. With his injury problems continuing into this season but impressive greatly when he has played for UCD.

So to say Murphy has always been selected ahead of him is a bit much, for me murphy has benefited from being his fathers son and doesn't look to be someone who you'd flag as a certain future academy 9 and certainly I've heard mixed reports on him since he joined clontarf.

Reilly is an excellent 9, who has started at 9 for Barnhall all season in the AIL as a 18 year old. Overlooked by leinster 19's for whatever reason, probably his club background.

Murphy is a good prospect, but I wouldnt say he is a better prospect at the same age as O'Sullivan or Patterson were. And as I said I wouldn't say he is obviously a better prospect than Reilly or Gilsenan.

Leinster have a patchy record in identifying and developing 9's so it will be interesting to watch.

Scottmactom · 23-04-2020 1:49pm

Interesting that the top 3 outhalves in the leinster underage setup are from non-traditional areas:

Tim Corkery(Kilkenny RFC)(u19)
Charlie Tector(Kilkenny College)(u18) - wexford native
Fionn O'Hara(Mullingar RFC)(u18)

Shefwedfan · 23-04-2020 1:54pm

Scottmactom wrote: »

Interesting that the top 3 outhalves in the leinster underage setup are from non-traditional areas:

Tim Corkery(Kilkenny RFC)(u19)
Charlie Tector(Kilkenny College)(u18) - wexford native
Fionn O'Hara(Mullingar RFC)(u18)

Going to have to shut that down :P:P:P

FellasFellas · 23-04-2020 4:23pm

Scottmactom wrote: »

When have both been fit and competing in same side? 2018 leinster schools side? where they both got a lot of gametime rotating at 9.

Since then Gilsenan had a huge SCT campaign for Michaels ending in injury in the final, causing him to miss irish u18 schools and leinster 19's. With his injury problems continuing into this season but impressive greatly when he has played for UCD.

So to say Murphy has always been selected ahead of him is a bit much, for me murphy has benefited from being his fathers son and doesn't look to be someone who you'd flag as a certain future academy 9 and certainly I've heard mixed reports on him since he joined clontarf.

Reilly is an excellent 9, who has started at 9 for Barnhall all season in the AIL as a 18 year old. Overlooked by leinster 19's for whatever reason, probably his club background.

Murphy is a good prospect, but I wouldnt say he is a better prospect at the same age as O'Sullivan or Patterson were. And as I said I wouldn't say he is obviously a better prospect than Reilly or Gilsenan.

Leinster have a patchy record in identifying and developing 9's so it will be interesting to watch.

I agree with you about our 9 issue. We just don't produce them as much as Munster do. We produced 19 times capped Luke McGrath and 11 times capped Cooney in the space that Munster produced 99 capped Stringer, 86 times capped Murray and a future cap in Casey.

Fintan Gunne looks decent but he's only going into 5th year in school and small enough.

Simon Keogh was our 9 cover in 09, Reddan was from Munster, Isaac Boss was from New Zealand, same with Gibson Park. Leinster really need to find a 9 and start working on the production of them soon.

Scottmactom · 23-04-2020 6:03pm

FellasFellas wrote: »

I agree with you about our 9 issue. We just don't produce them as much as Munster do. We produced 19 times capped Luke McGrath and 11 times capped Cooney in the space that Munster produced 99 capped Stringer, 86 times capped Murray and a future cap in Casey.

Fintan Gunne looks decent but he's only going into 5th year in school and small enough.

Simon Keogh was our 9 cover in 09, Reddan was from Munster, Isaac Boss was from New Zealand, same with Gibson Park. Leinster really need to find a 9 and start working on the production of them soon.

Ciaran Scally.. what if..

you forgot Chris Whitaker there in your list.

James Kenny(21/Lansdowne) looks to be doing very well in the AIL, finally healthy, I wonder if they'll look at him again.

Below him they obviously looked at Cormac Foley(20/St. Marys) last year and were still evaluating him this season before injury hit him. Jack Connolly(DUFC) was in the sub academy this year but didn't seem to be in contention for the 20's.

Conor Duggan(Castleknock) and Michael Moloney(Blackrock) were both involved with ireland schools at christmas so they are on the radar.

And then next years potential 20's; Ben Murphy(Clontarf), Rob Gilsenan(UCD), Will Reilly(Barnhall) & Matt Cullen(Blackrock).

Scottmactom · 24-04-2020 11:49am

Rumoured irish U20's in this year incoming leinster academy class:

Charlie Ward(Tullow RFC/Clontarf)
Joe McCarthy(Blackrock/DUFC)(u19)
Alex Soroka(Belvedere/DUFC)(u19)
Sean O'Brien(Blackrock/UCD)
Mark Hernan(St. Michaels/Lansdowne)
Andrew Smith(St. Michaels/Clontarf)

Buer · 24-04-2020 12:01pm

It will be interesting to see how McCarthy develops. Apparently already 108kg which is an area where our locks normally take a long time to develop so he could potentially be physically ready for senior rugby younger than some other options (only turned 19 a few weeks ago).

Looks like they're trying to address where the development gaps are with Moloney the only back row currently in the academy. I wasn't hugely impressed with Hernan for the Irish side thus far, thought he fell off some tackles that he should have been making.

Excited to see how SOB 4.0 and Soroka take to professional rugby, particularly the latter.

Scottmactom · 24-04-2020 12:05pm

McCarthy only started playing rugby seriously in 6th year afaik. Well he went to Rock so i'm sure he played it all the way up, but didn't feature in SCT until 6th year.

Be interesting to see if any players officially join straight from school, Chris Cosgrave being the most obvious candidate at the moment.

FellasFellas · 24-04-2020 12:18pm

Scottmactom wrote: »

Rumoured irish U20's in this year incoming leinster academy class:

Charlie Ward(Tullow RFC/Clontarf)
Joe McCarthy(Blackrock/DUFC)(u19)
Alex Soroka(Belvedere/DUFC)(u19)
Sean O'Brien(Blackrock/UCD)
Mark Hernan(St. Michaels/Lansdowne)
Andrew Smith(St. Michaels/Clontarf)

Definitely need a hooker into the sub academy or academy as I'm not sure Levi Vaughan or Ronan Loughnane will cut it. Bobby Sheehan definitely good enough to get a place. Also badly need a 9 as we discussed previously but could be a few years away.

Scottmactom · 24-04-2020 12:22pm

FellasFellas wrote: »

Definitely need a hooker into the sub academy or academy as I'm not sure Levi Vaughan or Ronan Loughnane will cut it. Bobby Sheehan definitely good enough to get a place. Also badly need a 9 as we discussed previously but could be a few years away.

Think they'll want to see more of Sheehan before announcing him, much like his brother. Might see him and McKee be around for preseason and one joining officially afterward. Or Lee Barron who is coming out of school, it wouldn't be a shock if he joined straight from school. Loughnane/Vaughan will be around sub-academy too.

they'll have several 9's in sub-academy competing for a place, maybe 2. (Murphy, Gilsenan, Cullen & Reilly)

Clegg · 24-04-2020 1:03pm

One of our best performances in recent years. One where you saw the huge progression the team had.made from the previous year.

https://twitter.com/leinsterrugby/status/1253655309203144704?s=19

PMC83 · 24-04-2020 2:12pm

Any word on Cathal Marsh? Read he left Runy

Scottmactom · 24-04-2020 3:25pm

What would a potential Leinster U23 side look like?

1. Michael Milne(21)
2. Ronan Kelleher(22)
3. Tom Clarkson(20)
4. Jack Dunne(21)
5. Charlie Ryan(21)
6. Ryan Baird(20)
7. Scott Penny(20)
8. Caelan Doris(22)
9. James Kenny(21)
10. Harry Byrne(21)
11. Andrew Smith(19)
12. Ciaran Frawley(22)
13. Gavin Mullin(22)
14. Tommy O'Brien(22)
15. Jordan Larmour(22)

molloyjh · 24-04-2020 8:54pm

PMC83 wrote: »

Any word on Cathal Marsh? Read he left Runy

Where did you hear that? Last I heard he had resigned at the end of last year? Has Covid had a big impact on the club?

Shefwedfan · 24-04-2020 9:00pm

PMC83 wrote: »

Any word on Cathal Marsh? Read he left Runy

Haven’t seen anything, he is still on twitter as a player, he was only resigned in Dec

I know Bastaraud left and back with Lyon

Squidgy Black · 24-04-2020 10:21pm

PMC83 wrote: »

Any word on Cathal Marsh? Read he left Runy

Dan Carter is linked with RUNY at the moment so if that goes ahead I wouldn't be surprised if he was leaving

Bazzo · 25-04-2020 12:19am

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Dan Carter is linked with RUNY at the moment so if that goes ahead I wouldn't be surprised if he was leaving

Yeah, I wouldn't be so sure about that...

https://twitter.com/DanCarter/status/1252710919458578432?s=19

Scottmactom · 25-04-2020 11:08am

Michael Bent turns 34 today, while JVDF turns 27.

Both very valuable players for Leinster to date, Bent is undoubtedly nearing the end of his Leinster career and who takes his position as 3rd choice TH looks uncertain right now with 4 candidates potentially competing for it.

Meanwhile is JVDF may be feeling the pressure going forward from a returning Dan Leavy or an emerging Will Connors.

Shefwedfan · 25-04-2020 11:12am

Scottmactom wrote: »

Michael Bent turns 34 today, while JVDF turns 27.

Both very valuable players for Leinster to date, Bent is undoubtedly nearing the end of his Leinster career and who takes his position as 3rd choice TH looks uncertain right now with 4 candidates potentially competing for it.

Meanwhile is JVDF may be feeling the pressure going forward from a returning Dan Leavy or an emerging Will Connors.

With the rate of injuries to those positions I dont see it been an issue

How many times have both JVDF and Leavy been fit at the same time?

salmocab · 25-04-2020 11:17am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

With the rate of injuries to those positions I dont see it been an issue

How many times have both JVDF and Leavy been fit at the same time?

Plus Leavy can play 6 a bit, he’s hardly the archetypal 7 anyway. There certainly going to be competition all over the backrow but injuries will take the sting out of that

Clegg · 25-04-2020 11:40am

VDF is every bit as good as Leavy. They've different skillets that see them excel at different things, but they're both excellent. VDF has been Leinsters best player this season imo.

PMC83 · 25-04-2020 11:52am

molloyjh wrote: »

Where did you hear that? Last I heard he had resigned at the end of last year? Has Covid had a big impact on the club?

There was a short interview on Pundit arena where one of the Runy coaches was talking about outgoing guys, Bastaraud and Marsh both mention..

Scottmactom · 25-04-2020 11:55am

Clegg wrote: »

VDF is every bit as good as Leavy. They've different skillets that see them excel at different things, but they're both excellent. VDF has been Leinsters best player this season imo.

Don't agree Leavy as his best is another level higher than JVDF, which is only revealed at the very highest level against teams like Saracens etc. His injury was a huge factor last season.

irishbucsfan · 25-04-2020 1:09pm

Scottmactom wrote: »

Don't agree Leavy as his best is another level higher than JVDF, which is only revealed at the very highest level against teams like Saracens etc. His injury was a huge factor last season.

Certainly wasn't "revealed" when Van Der Flier started against New Zealand in 2018.

They're both top players. I'd prefer VDF against some opposition, I'd prefer Leavy against others

Faugheen · 25-04-2020 2:45pm

Leavy 6, VDF 7.

Easy.

RugbyLover123 · 25-04-2020 3:03pm

Leavy and VDF have had an overlap of about 3 weeks when they’ve both been fit in the last 3 years. Absolute no need for either of them to move anywhere. I wouldn’t be thinking of going anywhere if I was Connors or Penny either. The likelihood of 3 of them, let alone 4 of them, all being fit for an extended run is highly unlikely.

Shefwedfan · 25-04-2020 3:06pm

RugbyLover123 wrote: »

Leavy and VDF have had an overlap of about 3 weeks when they’ve both been fit in the last 3 years. Absolute no need for either of them to move anywhere. I wouldn’t be thinking of going anywhere if I was Connors or Penny either. The likelihood of 3 of them, let alone 4 of them, all being fit for an extended run is highly unlikely.

Exactly, also Leinster each season plan to play to finals of Pro 14 and HC...

Plus a good percentage will plan to play with Ireland

Everyone seems to be planning on moving players out ASAP, lots of rugby going around

Clegg · 25-04-2020 3:11pm

On in 20 minutes for anyone interested.

https://twitter.com/leinsterrugby/status/1254043750978015236?s=19

25-04-2020 3:16pm

We desperately need Leavy or a player with his skillset for both Leinster and Ireland against teams like England / South Africa.

If we were playing the AB's tomorrow I'd want VDF over anyone else at 7 as his athleticism and defensive reading account well for the faster pace NZ play the ball with.

Against a team like Saracens or England if I was picking from a Leinster backrow I'd go with Doris, Leavy, Deegan and just throw all the beef at them.

Shefwedfan · 25-04-2020 3:53pm

Deleted User wrote: »

We desperately need Leavy or a player with his skillset for both Leinster and Ireland against teams like England / South Africa.

If we were playing the AB's tomorrow I'd want VDF over anyone else at 7 as his athleticism and defensive reading account well for the faster pace NZ play the ball with.

Against a team like Saracens or England if I was picking from a Leinster backrow I'd go with Doris, Leavy, Deegan and just throw all the beef at them.

Ruddock?

Scottmactom · 25-04-2020 4:09pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Ruddock?

Leavys best is much better.

Have to consider why Ruddock can't make Irish squad.. Ruddock himself didn't seem to reject the notion that he wasn't performing well enough this season. See Luke Fitz podcast.

Clegg · 25-04-2020 4:16pm

Any word on Fardy? He's been our most consistent player in the three seasons he's been with us. Would love one more year.

Scottmactom · 25-04-2020 4:22pm

Pre crisis there was talk of him staying for another year.. Now who knows..

Shefwedfan · 25-04-2020 6:01pm

Do the irfu not have a 3 contract rule?

Scottmactom · 25-04-2020 6:34pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Do the irfu not have a 3 contract rule?

No rules are set in stone.

Synode · 25-04-2020 6:49pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We desperately need Leavy or a player with his skillset for both Leinster and Ireland against teams like England / South Africa.

Fully agrre with this. Leavy is just so abrasive. His double tackle (think it was off a scrum) against England sums him up - can't find the gif but it's a joy to watch. He's been badly missed for Ireland especially. Not so much Leinster because as a team we're just so good with so many options.

Buer · 25-04-2020 7:11pm

VDF brings things to the table that no other flanker in Ireland can. The exact same can be said of Leavy. Very different players but both excellent. I would definitely look at Leavy more at blindside to accommodate them both similar to Pocock and Hooper in Australia. It remains to be seen what player returns though after such a horrendous injury. Leavy will be doing well to return as close to the same player that he was.

On the few occasions (it will surely happen eventually) when we have all our back row players available, it's going to be a very tough choice and some top quality talent isn't going to get into the 23. It's very likely that we could have a scenario where we have a back row of Doris, Connors and Deegan (all in Ireland's 6N squad this year) not making the Leinster 23.

Scottmactom · 25-04-2020 7:21pm

Synode wrote: »

Fully agrre with this. Leavy is just so abrasive. His double tackle (think it was off a scrum) against England sums him up - can't find the gif but it's a joy to watch. He's been badly missed for Ireland especially. Not so much Leinster because as a team we're just so good with so many options.

Leinster missed him massively in lasts years final.

Shefwedfan · 25-04-2020 7:29pm

Scottmactom wrote: »

No rules are set in stone.

You can imagine the uproar in Ulster and Munster if he did get another contract

Personally I think it would be great business and I doubt he is on massive money. His leadership with Ruddock when ireland are playing is incredible and Ryan has improved from playing with him

With Tomane leaving and Lowe getting qualified I think a case could be made. Especilly wok virus and I doubt Leinster will bring in another niq, but as mentioned I doubt the irfu would let it happen as the other provinces would start the usual

Clegg · 25-04-2020 7:42pm

Scottmactom wrote: »

Leinster missed him massively in lasts years final.

True. But the same can be said for VDF. O'Brien was not at the races in the final and a shadow of his old self. VDF played in the Pro 14 final and was excellent.

Scottmactom · 25-04-2020 8:04pm

Clegg wrote: »

True. But the same can be said for VDF. O'Brien was not at the races in the final and a shadow of his old self. VDF played in the Pro 14 final and was excellent.

The pro 14 final wasn't the same level of game as the Saracens Final.

Podge_irl · 25-04-2020 8:22pm

Scottmactom wrote: »

No rules are set in stone.

Very much on purpose.

Richie_Rich89 · 26-04-2020 1:41am

Buer wrote: »

VDF brings things to the table that no other flanker in Ireland can. The exact same can be said of Leavy. Very different players but both excellent. I would definitely look at Leavy more at blindside to accommodate them both similar to Pocock and Hooper in Australia. It remains to be seen what player returns though after such a horrendous injury. Leavy will be doing well to return as close to the same player that he was.

On the few occasions (it will surely happen eventually) when we have all our back row players available, it's going to be a very tough choice and some top quality talent isn't going to get into the 23. It's very likely that we could have a scenario where we have a back row of Doris, Connors and Deegan (all in Ireland's 6N squad this year) not making the Leinster 23.

Is the bolded part really true? Connors brings tackle count just like van der Flier, but also makes dominant tackles more of the time, getting his timing and technique just right to drive people backwards. Both Cullen and Sean Cronin (I think it was) have mentioned that Connors is topping the in-house charts they keep for dominant tackles. They're reasonably similar players, and van der Flier has obviously been in against stiffer opposition, but, for me, Connors just takes the effectiveness of tackling to another level.

Faugheen · 26-04-2020 7:49am

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Is the bolded part really true? Connors brings tackle count just like van der Flier, but also makes dominant tackles more of the time, getting his timing and technique just right to drive people backwards. Both Cullen and Sean Cronin (I think it was) have mentioned that Connors is topping the in-house charts they keep for dominant tackles. They're reasonably similar players, and van der Flier has obviously been in against stiffer opposition, but, for me, Connors just takes the effectiveness of tackling to another level.

While the above may be true, VDF brought his game to a whole different level this season.

It’s not all about dominant tackles, VDF has insane fitness levels as well as the pace of a back. Connors can make dominant tackles but VDF can make try-saving ones.

I personally think VDF is much better over the ball as well. We hear a lot that he’s too lightweight and it’s simply just not true.

Mind you, we know you have a thing against people with foreign names so I’ll leave it there.

Scottmactom · 26-04-2020 8:02am

I think Connors performances were putting JVDF under pressure for his position for Leinster.

Clegg · 26-04-2020 9:11am

Scottmactom wrote: »

I think Connors performances were putting JVDF under pressure for his position for Leinster.

That's could well be true. Connors was putting in excellent performances in the Pro 14 and VDF responded by raising his game at Champions Cup level. The competition for places has raised everyone's game. Can see it with Deegan and Doris too.

Faugheen · 26-04-2020 9:28am

The battle between Deegan and Doris has been glorious to watch. Both of them leaving everything out on the pitch week-on-week.

I honestly don’t think we’ll get any live rugby this side of 2021,btw. Even if you don’t let fans in, contact sport is a major risk in itself.

awec · 26-04-2020 10:37am

Faugheen wrote: »

The battle between Deegan and Doris has been glorious to watch. Both of them leaving everything out on the pitch week-on-week.

I honestly don’t think we’ll get any live rugby this side of 2021,btw. Even if you don’t let fans in, contact sport is a major risk in itself.

You would have to wonder when the money is going to run out.

Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

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