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Gardai not responding to request for info needed to commence a civil case, what next?

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    #92
    54and56
    Registered Users Posts: 7,645 ✭✭✭54and56


    GM228 wrote: »
    The law is not punishing you either.

    Easy for you to say.

    The law is specifically preventing me from taking a civil case against the person who vandalised my property.

    Apparently it's "against the law" for me to be in receipt of either the vandals contact details or his parents / guardians contact details in order for me to issue a writ.

    How can you possibly not see that?


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    #93
    frozenfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭frozenfrozen


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    If you can't debate honestly, there's no point.

    Please quote the rest of his comment



    This followed the example of drug debt. It was the second part. Therefore the logic is, why can't we make them pay up when the drug dealers can?

    Perhaps he should explain exactly what his rant about a drug debt meant in the context of his post about making parents pay a child's debt?

    Not my fault your reading comprehension has let you down so badly here. I'm not debating you.


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    #94
    costacorta
    Registered Users Posts: 478 ✭✭costacorta


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    If you can't debate honestly, there's no point.

    Please quote the rest of his comment



    This followed the example of drug debt. It was the second part. Therefore the logic is, why can't we make them pay up when the drug dealers can?

    Perhaps he should explain exactly what his rant about a drug debt meant in the context of his post about making parents pay a child's debt?

    If you can’t understand what I said then that’s a reflection on you . I was stating that a guard told a parent to pay the drug dealers who were pestering her for a debt her and had with them ..
    I Pointed out this should not be the case or should people be saying that OP should let things lie as they could come back and cause more damage.

    My point on parents paying was on the damage done and if my son caused 2k damage to a neighbor I’d expect to have to pay up . I’d make sure he’d pay me back in some way but just saying parents should not be asked to pay up for child’s criminal damage is a cop out IMO ..


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    #95
    costacorta
    Registered Users Posts: 478 ✭✭costacorta


    hullaballoo wrote: »
    In most other EU countries the age of criminal responsibility is older than it is here. Again not to rain on anyone's anti Irish justice system parade but them's the FACTS so to speak.

    The only people happy with Irish justice system are the Law Society who make a fortune on Free Legal Aid and the Scumbags with Over 100 previous convictions who get free representation..


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    #96
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    frozenfrozen wrote: »
    Not my fault your reading comprehension has let you down so badly here. I'm not debating you.

    Do you deny he wants parents to pay? He has said it again:
    costacorta wrote: »
    If you can’t understand what I said then that’s a reflection on you . I was stating that a guard told a parent to pay the drug dealers who were pestering her for a debt her and had with them ..
    I Pointed out this should not be the case or should people be saying that OP should let things lie as they could come back and cause more damage.

    My point on parents paying was on the damage done and if my son caused 2k damage to a neighbor I’d expect to have to pay up . I’d make sure he’d pay me back in some way but just saying parents should not be asked to pay up for child’s criminal damage is a cop out IMO ..


    I can but quote you again but as you have again repeated both above, theres no point.

    You arent actually making any form of legal argument here. Just saying you think parents should be on the hook for kids debts but then talking about a drug debt for some reason even though thats a case of a parent being on the hook for a childs debt.


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    #97
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    costacorta wrote: »
    The only people happy with Irish justice system are the Law Society who make a fortune on Free Legal Aid and the Scumbags with Over 100 previous convictions who get free representation..

    The Law Society makes no money from the FLA schemes.

    The amount of convictions a person may or may not have is irrelevant to their entitlement to FLA - it's a constitutional right, perhaps we should start infringing on peoples constitutional rights?


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    #98
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    54and56 wrote: »
    Easy for you to say.

    The law is specifically preventing me from taking a civil case against the person who vandalised my property.

    And for very good reason.


    54and56 wrote: »
    Apparently it's "against the law" for me to be in receipt of either the vandals contact details or his parents / guardians contact details in order for me to issue a writ.

    There's no "apparently", it's a fact.

    It is a criminal offence for the Guard, or indeed anyone to supply you any names or any other information which could identify the minor involved.


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    #99
    costacorta
    Registered Users Posts: 478 ✭✭costacorta


    GM228 wrote: »
    The Law Society makes no money from the FLA schemes.

    The amount of convictions a person may or may not have is irrelevant to their entitlement to FLA - it's a constitutional right, perhaps we should start infringing on peoples constitutional rights?

    Yes maybe make people who continually break the law (you seen them 100+ previous convictions) pay for their legal representation and maybe they might think twice next time they break the law . And there is a Solicitor in Cork who has made a fortune from free legal aid so how you claim they make no money from it baffles me . When I said law society I meant it’s members like solicitors.


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    #100
    costacorta
    Registered Users Posts: 478 ✭✭costacorta


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    Do you deny he wants parents to pay? He has said it again:




    I can but quote you again but as you have again repeated both above, theres no point.

    You arent actually making any form of legal argument here. Just saying you think parents should be on the hook for kids debts but then talking about a drug debt for some reason even though thats a case of a parent being on the hook for a childs debt.

    For the final time I’m saying it f a juvenile causes damage to another persons property like the OP then the parents should pay up for their child. Not rocket science for you to understand.

    And regarding drug debts I said the Garda told the parent to pay the drug dealer her sons debt as otherwise she could be in more danger .


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    #101
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,153 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    costacorta wrote: »
    For the final time I’m saying it f a juvenile causes damage to another persons property like the OP then the parents should pay up for their child. Not rocket science for you to understand.

    And regarding drug debts I said the Garda told the parent to pay the drug dealer her sons debt as otherwise she could be in more danger .

    the legal discussion forum tends to focus on what the law actually says rather than what posters want it to say. as it is parents are not liable for torts committed by their children.


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    #102
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    costacorta wrote: »
    Yes maybe make people who continually break the law (you seen them 100+ previous convictions) pay for their legal representation and maybe they might think twice next time they break the law . And there is a Solicitor in Cork who has made a fortune from free legal aid so how you claim they make no money from it baffles me . When I said law society I meant it’s members like solicitors.

    You specifically said the Law Society, not it's members so not sure why you are baffled.

    Should people who break the law over and over again and have little or no means be denied their constitutional rights? Should we qualify constitutional rights to being a good citizen?


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    #103
    costacorta
    Registered Users Posts: 478 ✭✭costacorta


    GM228 wrote: »
    You specifically said the Law Society, not it's members so not sure why you are baffled.

    Should people who break the law over and over again and have little or no means be denied their constitutional rights? Should we qualify constitutional rights to being a good citizen?

    Well when you become a Solicitor you are then a member of the law society so are you saying solicitors don’t make any money from FLA ? It’s a cash cow for them . I feel people who break law should have to pay for their own solicitor as much as the person who works for a living would have to pay for theirs .

    You see that’s the whole problem with law in this country,, Those who break it are well looked after and those on the receiving end are the ones who are told sorry nothing can be done .


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    #104
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,153 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    costacorta wrote: »
    Well when you become a Solicitor you are then a member of the law society so are you saying solicitors don’t make any money from FLA ? It’s a cash cow for them . I feel people who break law should have to pay for their own solicitor as much as the person who works for a living would have to pay for theirs .

    You see that’s the whole problem with law in this country,, Those who break it are well looked after and those on the receiving end are the ones who are told sorry nothing can be done .

    you are essentially saying that poor people at risk of a prison sentence should not have legal representation. the 1800s called and want their morality back.


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    #105
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    costacorta wrote: »
    Well when you become a Solicitor you are then a member of the law society so are you saying solicitors don’t make any money from FLA?

    No I didn't say that, and you know that.


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    #106
    54and56
    Registered Users Posts: 7,645 ✭✭✭54and56


    Which is it?

    This
    GM228 wrote: »
    The law is not punishing you either.

    or this?
    GM228 wrote: »
    There's no "apparently", it's a fact.

    It is a criminal offence for the Guard, or indeed anyone to supply you any names or any other information which could identify the minor involved.

    By your own admission the law is (thus far) preventing the Guards from disclosing the contact details of the vandal or his parents thus preventing me from taking a civil case.

    Are you not capable of admitting that the law preventing me from seeking compensation is punishing me? Maybe it's an unintended consequence but it's a very real financial loss I've suffered and to be blocked by the law from even attempting to seek recompense is unjust to me.

    If you can't see and admit that you are blinded by your own bias / prejudice.


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    #107
    costacorta
    Registered Users Posts: 478 ✭✭costacorta


    GM228 wrote: »
    No I didn't say that, and you know that.

    Ok but I think you knew what I was saying as well regarding FLA .
    So a 16 yr old youth does 2k damage to your property tomorrow and you will just say ah he is a juvenile and these things happen? .


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    #108
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    54and56 wrote: »
    By your own admission the law is (thus far) preventing the Guards from disclosing the contact details of the vandal or his parents thus preventing me from taking a civil case.

    Are you not capable of admitting that the law preventing me from seeking compensation is punishing me? Maybe it's an unintended consequence but it's a very real financial loss I've suffered and to be blocked by the law from even attempting to seek recompense is unjust to me.

    Perhaps you need to realise that there is no requirement for the Gardai to give you the identity of people involved in any civil (or indeed criminal) case irrespective of the age or incident, this is no different except that it is also specifically an offence for them to do so when it involves a minor.


    54and56 wrote: »
    If you can't see and admit that you are blinded by your own bias / prejudice.

    Perhaps you should look up the definitions of bias and prejudice and show me where I have used such...


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    #109
    costacorta
    Registered Users Posts: 478 ✭✭costacorta


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    you are essentially saying that poor people at risk of a prison sentence should not have legal representation. the 1800s called and want their morality back.

    It’s you mentioned POOR people? Don’t think Seanie Fitz would be classed as poor ?


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    #110
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    costacorta wrote: »
    Ok but I think you knew what I was saying as well regarding FLA .

    No, you were not clear in that post I responded to that you meant solicitors.


    costacorta wrote: »
    So a 16 yr old youth does 2k damage to your property tomorrow and you will just say ah he is a juvenile and these things happen? .

    No, I will say what the law says on the point, some people obviously don't like hearing the facts though, and of course people are free to disagree, but that does not change the facts of what can or can not be done.


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    #111
    54and56
    Registered Users Posts: 7,645 ✭✭✭54and56


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    you are essentially saying that poor people at risk of a prison sentence should not have legal representation. the 1800s called and want their morality back.

    We need a better balance.

    Not only am I not entitled to free legal aid to try and recover the cost of the damage the vandal did to my property but I can't even apply to the courts to seek relief, apparently I just have to suck it up and and that's fine and dandy according to some.

    Try putting yourself in my position or better yet, imagine some old lady who's had her lifelong collection of XXX destroyed by pure gratuitous vandalism and then draft a few sentences explaining to her how not only can she not seek any form of compensation via the civil courts but if she does manage to find out the name and address of the juvenile who admitted doing the damage she herself could be in all sorts of trouble because protecting the rights of the 15/16/17 year old and making sure they don't have to be financially accountable for their actions is far far more important than what might have been important and valuable to her.

    Now imagine that old lady is your Mum or Granny and seriously confirm you believe the balance of rights and protections in this scenario are correct.


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    #112
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    54and56 wrote: »
    We need a better balance.

    Not only am I not entitled to free legal aid to try and recover the cost of the damage the vandal did to my property but I can't even apply to the courts to seek relief, apparently I just have to suck it up and and that's fine and dandy according to some.

    Try putting yourself in my position or better yet, imagine some old lady who's had her lifelong collection of XXX destroyed by pure gratuitous vandalism and then draft a few sentences explaining to her how not only can she not seek any form of compensation via the civil courts but if she does manage to find out the name and address of the juvenile who admitted doing the damage she herself could be in all sorts of trouble because protecting the rights of the 15/16/17 year old and making sure they don't have to be financially accountable for their actions is far far more important than what might have been important and valuable to her.

    Now imagine that old lady is your Mum or Granny and seriously confirm you believe the balance of rights and protections in this scenario are correct.

    Nobody is saying you are right or wrong to feel the way you do (and I for one fully agree with your frustration), rather we are pointing out what the law is.

    Taking away the emotional side of any arguments, the legal side surrounding minor liability and their parents liability is sound and well founded.


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    #113
    54and56
    Registered Users Posts: 7,645 ✭✭✭54and56


    GM228 wrote: »
    Perhaps you need to realise that there is no requirement for the Gardai to give you the identity of people involved in any civil case irrespective of the age or incident,

    Ok, please walk me through how a hit and run victim who is left in a wheelchair takes a civil case against the driver if the Guards don't share the drivers identity with the victim?

    In relation to my own situation.

    There is a law preventing the Guards giving me the contact info I need to commence a civil case seeking compensation.

    By extension that law is punishing me.

    You can prevaricate all you like, it doesn't change the fact that if that law wasn't in place I'd at least have the ability to bring a case and let the facts be heard in front of a judge who can decide on the merits ref compensation and costs etc.

    But to be systematically denied by a law from having even an opportunity to seek compensation is itself unjust.

    The protection of a minor who has admitted guilt should not be at the cost of the victim.


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    #114
    costacorta
    Registered Users Posts: 478 ✭✭costacorta


    54and56 wrote: »
    We need a better balance.

    Not only am I not entitled to free legal aid to try and recover the cost of the damage the vandal did to my property but I can't even apply to the courts to seek relief, apparently I just have to suck it up and and that's fine and dandy according to some.

    Try putting yourself in my position or better yet, imagine some old lady who's had her lifelong collection of XXX destroyed by pure gratuitous vandalism and then draft a few sentences explaining to her how not only can she not seek any form of compensation via the civil courts but if she does manage to find out the name and address of the juvenile who admitted doing the damage she herself could be in all sorts of trouble because protecting the rights of the 15/16/17 year old and making sure they don't have to be financially accountable for their actions is far far more important than what might have been important and valuable to her.

    Now imagine that old lady is your Mum or Granny and seriously confirm you believe the balance of rights and protections in this scenario are correct.

    But But But what about the poor and disadvantaged? They should be entitled to do damage if they want and it’s all our fault that they have had a tough upbringing. . Just because you have to go out and work hard for what you have in life doesn’t mean that these people shouldn’t be able to damage your property because their dad is an Alcoholic or because their Dad left them when they were young ..


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    #115
    Caranica
    Registered Users Posts: 10,010 ✭✭✭✭Caranica


    Can you get a picture of the juvenile from the CCTV and run it through Google lens to see if it brings up any online images?


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    #116
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    54and56 wrote: »
    Ok, please walk me through how a hit and run victim who is left in a wheelchair takes a civil case against the driver if the Guards don't share the drivers identity with the victim?

    In relation to my own situation.

    There is a law preventing the Guards giving me the contact info I need to commence a civil case.

    By extension that law is punishing me.

    There are specific statutory requirements for the disclosure of information regarding motor vehicles.


    54and56 wrote: »
    You can prevaricate all you like, it doesn't change that fact.

    What is false or misleading about what I say?

    I'm bias/prejudiced and posting in a prevaricate way, good to know. Good luck.


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    #117
    costacorta
    Registered Users Posts: 478 ✭✭costacorta


    GM228 wrote: »
    There are specific statutory requirements for the disclosure of information regarding motor vehicles.





    What is false or misleading about what I say?

    GM I understand what you are saying is 100% correct in the way the law works . My point is that it is totally wrong that the perpetrators are treated better than the victims..


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    #118
    54and56
    Registered Users Posts: 7,645 ✭✭✭54and56


    GM228 wrote: »
    There are specific statutory requirements for the disclosure of information regarding motor vehicles.

    What is false or misleading about what I say?

    It was misleading to make a blanket statement that the Guards couldn't share contact details of any minor without clarifying there are exceptions.
    GM228 wrote: »
    I'm bias/prejudiced and posting in a prevaricate way, good to know. Good luck.

    You won't acknowledge that the law which prevents me getting the contact details I need to seek compensation via the civil courts is punishing me.

    Why is it so hard for you to simply acknowledge that?


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    #119
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,872 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    54and56 wrote: »
    Ok, please walk me through how a hit and run victim who is left in a wheelchair takes a civil case against the driver if the Guards don't share the drivers identity with the victim?

    In relation to my own situation.

    There is a law preventing the Guards giving me the contact info I need to commence a civil case seeking compensation.

    By extension that law is punishing me.

    You can prevaricate all you like, it doesn't change the fact that if that law wasn't in place I'd at least have the ability to bring a case and let the facts be heard in front of a judge who can decide on the merits ref compensation and costs etc.

    But to be systematically denied by a law from having even an opportunity to seek compensation is itself unjust.

    The protection of a minor who has admitted guilt should not be at the cost of the victim.

    Even if you get this information you've already admitted that you know that you won't get any money or compensation off them. So why are you fixated on getting their details only to lodge a civil case that you know is a waste of time?

    The system isn't fair but you wasting your time isn't going to fix it and you will never get any satisfaction. I know someone who had much more stolen from them and nothing could be done.


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    #120
    Feisar
    Registered Users Posts: 6,602 ✭✭✭Feisar


    One would think if the State is so hell bent in protecting the criminals it would compensate the victim and deduct from source from welfare/income.

    First they came for the socialists...



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    #121
    MacDanger
    Registered Users Posts: 2,354 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    GM228 wrote: »
    Perhaps you need to realise that there is no requirement for the Gardai to give you the identity of people involved in any civil (or indeed criminal) case irrespective of the age or incident, this is no different except that it is also specifically an offence for them to do so when it involves a minor.

    Somewhat tangential to this discussion but say there's an incident whereby damage is caused to my property (maybe a car door does damage to my parked car in a carpark?). For whatever reason, it's not progressed as a criminal case (relatively minor damage in the grand scheme of things).

    It's on CCTV or observed by someone but I don't know the identity of the person who did it. Is it possible for me to get the identity of the person who did it from anywhere? It seems from this thread that it's not


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