Gardai not responding to request for info needed to commence a civil case, what next?

embraer170

54and56 wrote: »

The above is (slightly) tongue in cheek but I'm old school and can't just turn the cheek when someone takes €2,000 out of my pocket. It's too hard earned.

Fair

Del2005

54and56 wrote: »

Well two things:-

1. I'm not looking for the juveniles identity, I've asked for his parents contact details.

2. If it does prove impossible to get his parents contact details from AGS I have my own very clear HD CCTV of the vandal so I do have the ability to identify him which I haven't overtly tried to do so far but it's a long road.

If I do uncover his identity I'll have what I need to research from public / open sources of info who he is, what his age is, his address etc and if necessary wait until he is past his 18th birthday (which will be well within the statute of limitations for a civil case) to issue my writ. I'm very patient and not in a hurry.



Nothing is ever that black and white. Time will tell and if I do end up having to pay c'est la vie. It'll sit better with me than rolling over and not holding this vandal to account.



The problem with that suggestion is I have to pretend to myself that it's ok to let this vandal damage my property and not have to pay for the cost of the repairs.

That might work for some people, not for me.

If some 10 year olds were messing around and accidentally damaged my property I'd expect an apology and for the parents to offer to pay but even if they didn't I'd let it slide as there was no criminal intent.

This guy is 15/16/17, well past the age of criminal responsibility, and what he did (which he admitted to) was nothing other than pure vandalism.

As far as I'm concerned, you deliberately break it, you bought it and until that tab is paid I'll keep chipping away.

You could end up in trouble doing this.

54and56

Del2005 wrote: »

You could end up in trouble doing this.

Please elaborate.

The guy trespassed on my property, vandalised it and admitted what he did but hasn't paid for the damage.

I know what he looks like.

If I find out his name and where he lives through open source info e.g. Google search and issue him a civil writ, especially if by the time I issue it he is 18 (he may be 18 already) what trouble exactly could I get into and with who?

aratsarse101

Hi OP,
I have read through the entire thread and it seems clear that you don’t really want to hear the truth. I understand that you may be stubborn/persistent and that your money is hard earned and that your are “old school”. Not only will these factors cloud your judgement, they may also be your downfall.
I have decided to take the time to reply also in the hope that you will see reason. And I know that it is not pleasant and I do feel sympathy for you.
I have a lot of experience working with juveniles and you will not win here. In fact, you could possibly make things a lot more difficult for yourself. I have seen young lads burn down the local shop and another group of young lads destroy a beautiful period building in another fire. I have heard stories about stolen cars and damaged property etc all with NO CONSEQUENCES. Lots of boasting, laughing, joking etc. The dogs on the street here locally knew who had caused the fires and the Gardai did their best.
I don’t know the alleged culprit in your story but a few things I have learned are:
In general they live in a parallel universe to us. Concepts such as fear, consequence, responsibility, empathy, community, justice etc are alien to some of them. So too are love, care unfortunately.
They will never pay out and in fairness often do not have the means. They certainly won’t pay legal costs for anyone.
They may turn on you and that is really worth considering
They have little to lose
They will think it is hilarious and your persistence will be a source of entertainment. Of that I’m certain.
They have fairly miserable lives themselves and maybe it would be best to leave it go.

Dismiss what I have said if you like, but have think about it anyway.

54and56

aratsarse101 wrote: »

Hi OP,
I have read through the entire thread and it seems clear that you don’t really want to hear the truth. I understand that you may be stubborn/persistent and that your money is hard earned and that your are “old school”. Not only will these factors cloud your judgement, they may also be your downfall.
I have decided to take the time to reply also in the hope that you will see reason. And I know that it is not pleasant and I do feel sympathy for you.
I have a lot of experience working with juveniles and you will not win here. In fact, you could possibly make things a lot more difficult for yourself. I have seen young lads burn down the local shop and another group of young lads destroy a beautiful period building in another fire. I have heard stories about stolen cars and damaged property etc all with NO CONSEQUENCES. Lots of boasting, laughing, joking etc. The dogs on the street here locally knew who had caused the fires and the Gardai did their best.
I don’t know the alleged culprit in your story but a few things I have learned are:
In general they live in a parallel universe to us. Concepts such as fear, consequence, responsibility, empathy, community, justice etc are alien to some of them. So too are love, care unfortunately.
They will never pay out and in fairness often do not have the means. They certainly won’t pay legal costs for anyone.
They may turn on you and that is really worth considering
They have little to lose
They will think it is hilarious and your persistence will be a source of entertainment. Of that I’m certain.
They have fairly miserable lives themselves and maybe it would be best to leave it go.

Dismiss what I have said if you like, but have think about it anyway.

Brilliant post aratsarse101, balanced and well articulated.

Despite the impression contributors to the thread may have of me I'm not stupid and whilst I want to hold this young scroat to account and recover the €2,000 he has cost me I take on board your points about the unintended consequence my proposed civil case could have and will give that full consideration before commencing proceedings.

Of course the decision could be taken out of my hands if I'm unable to get the vandal or his parents contact details.

I appreciate you taking the time to give me your advice.

aratsarse101

Best of luck. The whole thing is really unfair for you. I too find this sort of thing very frustrating and have a bit of the “dog with a bone” tendency.
All the best

54and56

aratsarse101 wrote: »

Best of luck. The whole thing is really unfair for you. I too find this sort of thing very frustrating and have a bit of the “dog with a bone” tendency.
All the best

Thanks,

I'd better not watch Gran Torino for a while!!

whippet

You have a number of issues here ...

The fact that you are looking for advise / avenues for recompense via a public anonymous message boards and are not prepared to pay for trusted legal advise means you are behind the 8ball from the very start.

You can’t get legal advise here as its against the charter ... however you are getting life advise which is all pointing in the direction you don’t want to hear.

The system in Ireland isn’t in your favour and unfortunately as an individual you have no chance of changing that - it’s not Judge Judy

You seem to be directing a lot of your ire towards AGS - their hands are tied by very strict legislation surrounding protection of personal data / children’s rights. The guards can’t change this.

With any civil case you need to know who you are taking the case against - while the guards know the identity they are prohibited by law passing these details to you - regardless of how you feel about it.

So - if you do manage to get the child’s details - you of course can use your time / money trying to bring legal action against them .... but as others here have told you - it would be a waste of time and money.

I would offer to pay for any damage my child caused; I’m sure you would also along with most people reading this - however - sometimes people are jerks ... and if they can’t be compelled legally to make good the damage you are depending on their good nature and ability to make it right. In this case it seems you’ve encountered one of the jerks or someone who just does not have the financial capacity to make good the damage.

Either way - you are snookered - it’s not nice but by going down the rabbit hole of amateur legal eagle you are causing more stress on yourself ..... life advise from me - chalk it down to experience and get on with your life

Jim2007

54and56 wrote: »

I'll then have to pursue other avenues to be able to issue my civil writ.

And you’ll get about thirty seconds in court if even that, while their solicitor/barrister explains that you failed to follow procedure and consequently your case does no merit and please can they have their costs.

You need to start with the court directing the Garda to provide the necessary information for this to go forward.

frozenfrozen

Jesus christ he has addressed it multiple times

This is a legal discussion forum not a bloody referral service. The usual go see a solicitor people are now really stomping their feet

The man wants to try do what he's apparenrly legally allowed to. He knows well he will be stopped short and wants to be able to rightly on a high horse say I had x done to me and dotted every i and crossed every t and it turns out you still get left worse off.

He just wants to have some letter or reply stating there is nothing more that can come to him


Whats the point in you being able to legally bring someone to court if in reality you are sneered at the thought of wanting 2k back to cover damage caught on cctv and admitted to.

Good on the OP. You and I both know you'll never get that money back but if that little scrote had to appear in court and agree hes only ever able to pay off 1 euro a month because he has nothing it would be worth it

And a letter from a guard telling you to stop would be just as good, since it would at least get rid of the myth theres any avenue for someone to get reimbursed in your position

54and56

whippet wrote: »

You have a number of issues here ...

The fact that you are looking for advise / avenues for recompense via a public anonymous message boards and are not prepared to pay for trusted legal advise means you are behind the 8ball from the very start.

You don't need a solicitor to take a civil case.

I don't want to throw good money after bad but am prepared to invest my spare time in pursuing compensation from the vandal. This seems to be an offensive idea to some here which I find strange.

whippet wrote: »

You can’t get legal advise here as its against the charter ...

I didn't ask for any, not sure why you felt obliged to state that.

whippet wrote: »

however you are getting life advise which is all pointing in the direction you don’t want to hear.

Yes I am and it's been both insighful and instructional, particularly from aratsarse101 which has added to the factors I'll consider if I do get to the point where I "can" issue the civil writ.

whippet wrote: »

The system in Ireland isn’t in your favour equitable and unfortunately as an individual you have no chance of changing that - it’s not Judge Judy

Fixed that for ya and thanks for the sarky comment.

whippet wrote: »

You seem to be directing a lot of your ire towards AGS - their hands are tied by very strict legislation surrounding protection of personal data / children’s rights. The guards can’t change this.

You really haven't been paying attention whippet, I haven't once directed ire at the AGS in fact I've praised both the investigating Garda and the local SI both of whom acted professionally and in a timely manner. My issue with AGS is not getting a response form the SI of the Youth Diversion Bureau (who the local SI referred me to) in the 3 months which have elapsed since they received the registered letter I sent them. If their eventual response confirms they can't provide the vandals parents contact details for XXX reason I'll accept that and move on to explore other avenues to obtain the info I need to issue my civil writ.

whippet wrote: »

With any civil case you need to know who you are taking the case against - while the guards know the identity they are prohibited by law passing these details to you - regardless of how you feel about it.

So - if you do manage to get the child’s details - you of course can use your time / money trying to bring legal action against them .... but as others here have told you - it would be a waste of time and money.

That depends on what you define success and failure as. Getting the vandal (and his parents) in front of a judge and in the same room as me, regardless of outcome, could be a satisfactory outcome for me.

whippet wrote: »

Either way - you are snookered - it’s not nice but by going down the rabbit hole of amateur legal eagle you are causing more stress on yourself ..... life advise from me - chalk it down to experience and get on with your life

I promise it's quite the opposite. The engagement I've had over the last 24 hours has been cathartic and quite de-stressing compared to the frustration of having no idea how to progress the civil case at all.

GM228

54and56 wrote: »

Apologies, maybe I wasn't clear.

The local SI confirmed he couldn't share the parents contact details with me but specifically suggested in his letter that I contact the the SI of the Youth Diversion Bureau who could help. That's what I did and am waiting a reply.

Why would the local SI he suggest contacting the SI of the Youth Diversion Bureau if he didn't think I'd get some assistance from that person?

Which is extremely odd that one Guard will basically tell you I can't because it's against the law, but, ask so and so and he may break the law. It's illegal full stop for them to give it to you, suggesting you ask someone else in the organisation does not change that fact.

It's also just as odd that a Guard advises you that you can take a civil case and they confirm in writing that they will act as a witness for you, they would be as useful as a witness as an underwater hairdryer.

54and56 wrote: »

I definitely understand the investigating Guard kicking it up to the local SI, above my pay grade and all that. I don't understand the local SI suggesting the SI of the Youth Diversion Bureau could give me something different to what he'd already given me which was a "No, I can't give you the parents contact details due to the Children Act etc etc".

Indeed it makes absolutely no sense and is highly unusual if what you say is true.

54and56 wrote: »

Don't think it has anything to do with negligence but I understand the point you're making.

Typo, I meant intention, the fact that the person would be then over 18 does not change the fact that the wrong happened when they were a minor and any tests appropriate for the age at the time would still stand.

54and56 wrote: »

IIRC criminal responsibility starts aged 12 but isn't a binary yes/no and the age etc under 18 will potentially be a mitigating factor.

I hope I get to find out!!

Criminal responsibility has absolutely no bearing on a civil case.

54and56 wrote: »

If I end up losing and paying the vandals costs I'll come back and issue beer vouchers all round to those of you who warned me that would happen but if I somehow manage to get a judgement in my favour, even if it takes years to collect, I'll be back here to update and hopefully provide encouragement to others to not roll over and allow yourself, through inertia, to be a helpless victim.

Heineken for me.

54and56

Jim2007 wrote: »

And you’ll get about thirty seconds in court if even that, while their solicitor/barrister explains that you failed to follow procedure and consequently your case does no merit and please can they have their costs.

You need to start with the court directing the Garda to provide the necessary information for this to go forward.

Mmmm, not familiar what procedure I wouldn't be following.

My understanding of the procedure to follow to issue a writ is:-

1. Draft the writ.
2. Issue the writ to the recipient.

#1 is ready to go.

#2 I've asked AGS for and if they can't provide I'll have to use other (legal) sources of info to obtain.

Please advise why you think a civil court needs to direct the Garda to provide me with the vandals contact details or his parents details? I'd like to know if I can apply to a court for them to do just that.

Also, if I have already legally obtained the recipient(s) contact details why would the court need to order I receive same from the Guards?

You're not making stuff up are you?

whippet

i'm out ......

GM228

Jim2007 wrote: »

You need to start with the court directing the Garda to provide the necessary information for this to go forward.

The court has no power to direct such.

XVII

embraer170 wrote: »

This thread has been a real eye opener.

I apparently don't need to worry about any material damage my kids might one day cause, wilful or accidental.

exactly my thoughts. Lands of opportunities this state is, what a joke of a system.

not surprising we have such a massive issue of minors who think they are completely untouchable and free to do whatever they like.

best of luck to you OP, hopefully people like you will manage to influence this spineless "ah sUrE it's gRanD leT it Go" society one day.

McCrack

54and56 wrote: »

Mmmm, not familiar what procedure I wouldn't be following.

My understanding of the procedure to follow to issue a writ is:-

1. Draft the writ.
2. Issue the writ to the recipient.

#1 is ready to go.

#2 I've asked AGS for and if they can't provide I'll have to use other (legal) sources of info to obtain.

Please advise why you think a civil court needs to direct the Garda to provide me with the vandals contact details or his parents details? I'd like to know if I can apply to a court for them to do just that.

Also, if I have already legally obtained the recipient(s) contact details why would the court need to order I receive same from the Guards?

You're not making stuff up are you?

You need to speak with a solicitor for legal advice

GM228

XVII wrote: »

exactly my thoughts. Lands of opportunities this state is, what a joke of a system.

not surprising we have such a massive issue of minors who think they are completely untouchable and free to do whatever they like.

best of luck to you OP, hopefully people like you will manage to influence this spineless "ah sUrE it's gRanD leT it Go" society one day.

Nearly every legal system in the world is the same, there are a few (a massive minority) jurisdictions where the law is different (but which may still have various qualifications).

There are so many (and often complicated) reasons why you generally can't hold a minor liable in Tort which for anyone who actually understands the legal system rather than slam it makes perfect sense, and as someone very familiar with the ins and outs of the legal system I can tell you with 100% certainty that it is not going to change no matter how much political pressure there is or how much of the rights and wrongs arguments are spouted out.

costacorta

embraer170 wrote: »

This thread has been a real eye opener.

I apparently don't need to worry about any material damage my kids might one day cause, wilful or accidental.

Part of me fully understands the need to hold the person accountable (especially with the evidence you have), but are there better things to do with one's time?

You see that’s where the problem lies . We have a guy who works with kids who get into trouble telling OP let it go as they might do worse damage!! I remember a story on radio a few years back of a mother being threatened for money for her sons drug debts and the Garda advice was pay up as only way they will go away !.

Are we really saying we can’t do anything about someone causing €2k damage to ones property as he is a juvenile? Or If a mother s being threatened by scumbags that she should pay them in order to stop them harming her family?.

Why can’t courts make parents responsible for children’s actions? If they can’t pay fines etc take it at source from their benefits but then all the lefty politicians would be out moaning about civil liberties.


Best of luck OP and I admire your tenacity and remember you are 100% correct it’s our system and reading posts on here our people’s belief that nothing can be done .

XVII

GM228 wrote: »

There are so many (and often complicated) reasons why you generally can't hold a minor liable

no one said that. Parents should be liable, and it's definitely a thing out there, but not here.

costacorta

costacorta wrote: »

You see that’s where the problem lies . We have a guy who works with kids who get into trouble telling OP let it go as they might do worse damage!! I remember a story on radio a few years back of a mother being threatened for money for her sons drug debts and the Garda advice was pay up as only way they will go away !.

Are we really saying we can’t do anything about someone causing €2k damage to ones property as he is a juvenile? Or If a mother s being threatened by scumbags that she should pay them in order to stop them harming her family?.

Why can’t courts make parents responsible for children’s actions? If they can’t pay fines etc take it at source from their benefits but then all the lefty politicians would be out moaning about civil liberties.


Best of luck OP and I admire your tenacity and remember you are 100% correct it’s our system and reading posts on here our people’s belief that nothing can be done .

So you think the mother should be held liable for her childs drug debts? And the justice system should copy drug dealers?

frozenfrozen

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

So you think the mother should be held liable for her childs drug debts? And the justice system should copy drug dealers?

clearly saying the opposite of that

frozenfrozen

frozenfrozen wrote: »

clearly saying the opposite of that

Nope, read it again. Hes complaining that the irish courts arent making the parents pay for the kids actions

frozenfrozen

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Nope, read it again. Hes complaining that the irish courts arent making the parents pay for the kids actions

"I remember a story on radio a few years back of a mother being threatened for money for her sons drug debts and the Garda advice was pay up as only way they will go away !."

he was complaining that the gardai were telling the woman to pay off the drug debt as they couldn't stop the gang from attempting to collect from her

costacorta

frozenfrozen wrote: »

he was complaining that the gardai were telling the woman to pay off the drug debt as they couldn't stop the gang from attempting to collect from her

Exactly my point is that we now seem to have a society that are willing to accept vandalism and threatening behaviour because if we stand up to it they will do worse so just suck it up !!!

hullaballoo

In most other EU countries the age of criminal responsibility is older than it is here. Again not to rain on anyone's anti Irish justice system parade but them's the FACTS so to speak.

GM228

XVII wrote: »

no one said that. Parents should be liable, and it's definitely a thing out there, but not here.

It's a thing out there without qualification in some jurisdictions (primarily in some US states - and some have already been held to be unconstitutional), but, not in most other places where like here a parent may be liable, but is subject to qualification - the law is not designed to punished people who are not to blame.

54and56

GM228 wrote: »

It's a thing out there without qualification in some jurisdictions (primarily in some US states - and some have already been held to be unconstitutional), but, not in most other places where like here a parent may be liable, but is subject to qualification - the law is not designed to punished people who are not to blame.

I beg to differ.

frozenfrozen

frozenfrozen wrote: »

he was complaining that the gardai were telling the woman to pay off the drug debt as they couldn't stop the gang from attempting to collect from her

If you can't debate honestly, there's no point.

Please quote the rest of his comment

costacorta wrote: »

Why can’t courts make parents responsible for children’s actions? If they can’t pay fines etc take it at source from their benefits .

This followed the example of drug debt. It was the second part. Therefore the logic is, why can't we make them pay up when the drug dealers can?

Perhaps he should explain exactly what his rant about a drug debt meant in the context of his post about making parents pay a child's debt?

GM228

54and56 wrote: »

GM228 wrote: »

It's a thing out there without qualification in some jurisdictions (primarily in some US states - and some have already been held to be unconstitutional), but, not in most other places where like here a parent may be liable, but is subject to qualification - the law is not designed to punished people who are not to blame.

I beg to differ.

The law is not punishing you either.