Billy Walsh quits ** SEE MOD WARNING #643 BEFORE POSTING

hardCopy · 20-10-2015 1:11pm

walshb wrote: »

That's as much as anyone of us really have.

If there is ambiguity it's because the IABA haven't engaged with the media to give their side of the story.

So far we've had media interviews with Walsh, Treacy, Minister Ring, Barnes, O'Neill, Michael Carruth and others but not a peep from the IABA board.

If the media have it all wrong it's easily put right, just ring in to Pat Kenny or Sean O'Rourke.

Joe_ Public · 20-10-2015 1:18pm

hardCopy wrote: »

If there is ambiguity it's because the IABA haven't engaged with the media to give their side of the story.

So far we've had media interviews with Walsh, Treacy, Minister Ring, Barnes, O'Neill, Michael Carruth and others but not a peep from the IABA board.

If the media have it all wrong it's easily put right, just ring in to Pat Kenny or Sean O'Rourke.

The IABA doesn't like media. I think history tells us that. If I'm not mistaken they don't even have a full-time press officer?

I wonder if Pat Ryan will have anything to say, think he would be friendly with Billy if I have a firm grasp of Irish boxing politics.

walshb · 20-10-2015 1:45pm

Maybe the IABA dont want to come out and give their side in explicit details. Maybe they have a very good reason for that. It may be a little too cutting. They gave a statement, and said that they tried to work through this.

BTW, HP is around 12-13 years now. It has been doing wonderfully well as regards producing talent and results. It is, and was working. Who rocked the boat here? If it's not about money, and we focus on autonomy and managemnet, what changed to cause Walsh to quit?

efb · 20-10-2015 1:48pm

walshb wrote: »

Maybe the IABA dont want to come out and give their side in explicit details. Maybe they have a very good reason for that. It may be a little to cutting. They gave a statement, and said that they tried to work through this.

BTW, HP is around 12-13 years now. It has been doing wonderfully well as regards producing talent and results. It is, and was working. Who rocked the boat here? If it's not about money, and we focus on autonomy and managemnet, what changed to cause Walsh to quit?

Maybe it could be better.

And Billy is surely a part of it?

Or do you place no value in Billy's work???

efb · 20-10-2015 1:49pm

If the IABA don't present their evidence we have to use the evidence available then

efb · 20-10-2015 1:50pm

walshb wrote: »

Ok, so you have no real evidence (on this situation) to be so sure that Walsh is right and the IABA are wrong. Grand! Unless your past-current dealings have led you to this conclusion?

You like misrepresenting my position don't you???

walshb · 20-10-2015 1:51pm

efb wrote: »

Maybe it could be better.

And Billy is surely a part of it?

Or do you place no value in Billy's work???

How does your brain work to think of these questions?

I have stated clearly that I believe that Walsh was important.

walshb · 20-10-2015 1:52pm

efb wrote: »

If the IABA don't present their evidence we have to use the evidence available then

Evidence available? What, exactly? I'm right and you're wrong. That's about all the evidence I have seen so far.

K3v · 20-10-2015 1:53pm

walshb wrote: »

Maybe the IABA dont want to come out and give their side in explicit details. Maybe they have a very good reason for that. It may be a little to cutting.

Thas a lot of speculating on your behalf. I rather stick to whats out in the public domain.

walshb · 20-10-2015 1:54pm

K3v wrote: »

Thas a lot of speculating on your behalf. I rather stick to whats out in the public domain.

And what is in the public domain is not at all convincing me that the IABA are the baddies here.

walshb · 20-10-2015 1:59pm

All this stemmed from Billy's U.S. offer back in late 2014. It kicked off from there it seems. All going well and everyone seeming happy. Medaling and producing results. Then issues arose regarding finances and autonomy. Like I said, someone rocked a boat that seemed to be in calm waters.

supermans ghost · 20-10-2015 2:00pm

walshb wrote: »

Maybe the IABA dont want to come out and give their side in explicit details. Maybe they have a very good reason for that. It may be a little too cutting. They gave a statement, and said that they tried to work through this.

BTW, HP is around 12-13 years now. It has been doing wonderfully well as regards producing talent and results. It is, and was working. Who rocked the boat here? If it's not about money, and we focus on autonomy and managemnet, what changed to cause Walsh to quit?

walshb, you are either a wind up merchant or a lackey of the IABA, either way you are a pathetic individual, are you sure you're not Fergal Carruth, hiding behind a computer, and then sending your brother to do your dirty work on national radio.

gordongekko · 20-10-2015 2:00pm

walshb wrote: »

Evidence available? What, exactly? I'm right and you're wrong. That's about all the evidence I have seen so far.

We've had Walsh speak on the matter, John treacy speak on the matter, the minister for sport even the connacht branch president of the iaba. all speak on the matter. None of them claim the issue is Walsh.

How much more evidence do you need?

walshb · 20-10-2015 2:02pm

supermans ghost wrote: »

walshb, you are either a wind up merchant or a lackey of the IABA, either way you are a pathetic individual, are you sure you're not Fergal Carruth, hiding behind a computer, and then sending your brother to do your dirty work on national radio.

Relax there, Billy.

We're only having an adult and civil discussion. Nowhere on the thread title does it ban an opposing view or possible disagreement that that IABA are to blame.

If you calm down, and regroup, you may even enjoy the debate.

walshb · 20-10-2015 2:03pm

gordongekko wrote: »

We've had Walsh speak on the matter, John treacy speak on the matter, the minister for sport even the connacht branch president of the iaba. all speak on the matter. None of them claim the issue is Walsh.

How much more evidence do you need?

Since when is any of that evidence of anything? This isn't a courtroom drama.

efb · 20-10-2015 2:03pm

walshb wrote: »

How does your brain work to think of these questions?

I have stated clearly that I believe that Walsh was important.

Why the personal attacks???

My brain works perfectly fine- even after 3 bouts of brain surgery

K3v · 20-10-2015 2:03pm

walshb wrote: »

And what is in the public domain is not at all convincing me that the IABA are the baddies here.

Yeah, John Treacy is not to be believed at all. That man has it in for the IABA. :pac: - Grabs tinfoil hat.

supermans ghost · 20-10-2015 2:04pm

walshb wrote: »

Relax there, Billy.

We're only having an adult and civil discussion. Nowhere on the thread title does it ban an opposing view or possible disagreement that that IABA are to blame.

If you calm down, and regroup, you may even enjoy the debate.

Wind up merchant, enough said. enjoy your 15 minutes.

efb · 20-10-2015 2:05pm

walshb wrote: »

Relax there, Billy.

We're only having an adult and civil discussion. Nowhere on the thread title does it ban an opposing view or possible disagreement that that IABA are to blame.

If you calm down, and regroup, you may even enjoy the debate.

Adult and civil?

Your remarks in my direction were anything but!

walshb · 20-10-2015 2:06pm

efb wrote: »

Why the personal attacks???

My brain works perfectly fine- even after 3 bouts of brain surgery

It's not a personal attack. You asked a question with two ??. I think it is clear that we all value Billy's work. Not sure why you asked it with the two ??

The issue isn't how good Billy was in his head coach role.

As to perosnal attack. Go away out of that with the feigned offence. You were the one bringing up marriage referendums and surrogacy in one of your posts about me.

walshb · 20-10-2015 2:06pm

supermans ghost wrote: »

Wind up merchant, enough said. enjoy your 15 minutes.

Nice 3rd post in 3 years........Keep it up.

efb · 20-10-2015 2:07pm

walshb wrote: »

It's not a personal attack. You asked a question with two ??. I think it is clear that we all value Billy's work. Not sure why you asked it with the two ??

The issue isn't how good Billy was in his head coach role.

As to perosnal attack. Go away out of that. You were the one bringing up marriage referendums and surrogacy in one of your posts about me.

You asked how my brain works- how is that not personal???

I was referring to your use of red herrings

efb · 20-10-2015 2:09pm

As an r/j I'm used to petty comments but yours aren't exclusively aimed at me, boxers regularly get lambasted by you WalshB

Joe_ Public · 20-10-2015 2:11pm

Here's a few things we can deduce about why Billy Walsh is gone.

1. There are long-standing grievances. Maybe partly about money, but mostly to do with team control. A protest against what is seen as unhelpful board interference into issues around the team including selection. An independent report into the London Olympics backs Walsh up on many of these key issues. The IABA board appears to do nothing to resolve them.

2. USA Boxing offers Walsh a deal and brings issues to a boil. Walsh uses the offer as leverage to get a better deal, as any smart guy would. Board refuses to budge. As Walsh threatens to go, mediator is brought in, Sports Council offers to fund Walsh's entire package and an impasse looks to be averted.

3. IABA delegation, without consulting its own board, agrees to accept package but with conditions, details of which aren't clear, but which apparently include a clause whereby Billy has to ask board permission to take a call from a journalist (you'd swear I was making that last bit up if you were coming fresh to the story!). Walsh cannot accept these conditions, saying they are an affront to his dignity and is left with no other options. The death by a thousand cuts is complete.

supermans ghost · 20-10-2015 2:14pm

walshb wrote: »

Nice 3rd post in 3 years........Keep it up.

Meh, I actually have a life.
Tell me if this sounds like me hanging up on you. click

walshb · 20-10-2015 2:16pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

3. IABA delegation, without consulting its own board, agrees to accept package but with conditions, details of which aren't clear, but which apparently include a clause whereby Billy has to ask board permission to take a call from a journalist (you'd swear I was making that last bit up if you were coming fresh to the story!). Walsh cannot accept these conditions, saying they are an affront to his dignity and is left with no other options. The death by a thousand cuts is complete.

Well, if he can't accept the conditions of the IABA then he needed to leave. If they are the terms and he doesn't like them that's his problem. The IABA have a committee, that I assume is somewhat democratic. Their rules and regulations are set out and you have a choice to work with them or not. He chose not to. The IABA are then getting slated for his quitting.

walshb · 20-10-2015 2:17pm

supermans ghost wrote: »

Meh, I actually have a life.
Tell me if this sounds like me hanging up on you. click

4th post. You're flying!

efb · 20-10-2015 2:18pm

walshb wrote: »

Well, if he can't accept the conditions of the IABA then he needed to leave. If they are the terms and he doesn't like them that's his problem. The IABA have a committee, that I assume is somewhat democratic. Their rules and regulations are set out and you have a choice to work with them or not. He chose not to. The IABA are then getting slated for his quitting.

If you allow your best people to leave people would look v unfavourably on you

mitresize5 · 20-10-2015 2:19pm

Just a thought here looking at this from the outside.

The Irish football team did away with squad selection by committee in the early 70's.

The Irish rugby team did away with it in the late 80's.

Does anyone know of any other sport in Ireland where squads are still picked by committee? I'm a little young to remember the football side of things but I certainly remember that the rugby selections committees were rife with politics and horse trading, to the detriment country as a whole as well as the incumbent coach.

That for me is a red line issue, no matter what else was on or off the table.

edit: really interested to see if anyone has any examples of current international squads picked by committe

walshb · 20-10-2015 2:19pm

efb wrote: »

As an r/j I'm used to petty comments but yours aren't exclusively aimed at me, boxers regularly get lambasted by you WalshB

What is an r/j? If you want to get something off your chest regarding my posting to you then speak English to me. Spell it out.

walshb · 20-10-2015 2:21pm

mitresize5 wrote: »

Just a thought here looking at this from the outside.

The Irish football team did away with squad selection by committee in the early 70's.

The Irish rugby team did away with it in the late 80's.

Does anyone know of any other sport in Ireland where squads are still picked by committee? I'm a little young to remember the football side of things but I certainly remember that the rugby selections committees were rife with politics and horse trading, to the detriment country as a whole as well as the incumbent coach.

That for me is a red line issue, no matter what else was on or off the table.

edit: really interested to see if anyone has any examples of current international squads picked by committe

How about we look at it this way. The succees we have had sice HP was set up with the committee being involved in selction has been very good. Why change that? Was Walsh wanting to do it all on his own? Was he wanting a complete change of the current squad picking mechanism?

Joe_ Public · 20-10-2015 2:23pm

walshb wrote: »

Well, if he can't accept the conditions of the IABA then he needed to leave. If they are the terms and he doesn't like them that's his problem. The IABA have a committee, that I assume is somewhat democratic. Their rules and regulations are set out and you have a choice to work with them or not. He chose not to. The IABA are then getting slated for his quitting.

Yes. That's all good - though omitting the part where the IABA delegation, according to Sport Ireland neglected to consult said committee - but aren't you just the slightest bit curious, just the teensiest bit, to know what those other conditions might have been. I'm sure we'll hear about it, just not from the IABA.

On a general point: the whole notion of a board of politicians, boxing men or no, having a say in team selection is a talking point. I mean, I note Des Fitzgerald, Irish rugby player, is a board member. Maybe he has a boxing connection, but don't know what it is, but the notion he should be having a say in HP team affairs is bizarre to say the least. Does Brian Cody bow the knee to Kilkenny board men when he's picking his All Ireland final team? Do the FAI blazers run the rule over Martin O'Neill's team before they take the pitch? An extremely odd state of affairs to put it very mildly.

Joe_ Public · 20-10-2015 2:25pm

mitresize5 wrote: »

Just a thought here looking at this from the outside.

The Irish football team did away with squad selection by committee in the early 70's.

The Irish rugby team did away with it in the late 80's.

Does anyone know of any other sport in Ireland where squads are still picked by committee? I'm a little young to remember the football side of things but I certainly remember that the rugby selections committees were rife with politics and horse trading, to the detriment country as a whole as well as the incumbent coach.

That for me is a red line issue, no matter what else was on or off the table.

edit: really interested to see if anyone has any examples of current international squads picked by committe

Good post. Happened to be making pretty much the same point at the same time. It's a very pertinent one.

mitresize5 · 20-10-2015 2:26pm

walshb wrote: »

How about we look at it this way. The succees we have had sice HP was set up with the committee being involved in selction has been very good. Why change that? Was Walsh wanting to do it all on his own? Was he wanting a complete change of the current squad picking mechanism?

Or does he think we havent reached our potential because of the committee system?

Joe_ Public · 20-10-2015 2:27pm

walshb wrote: »

How about we look at it this way. The succees we have had sice HP was set up with the committee being involved in selction has been very good. Why change that? Was Walsh wanting to do it all on his own? Was he wanting a complete change of the current squad picking mechanism?

My way of looking at it would be the success Irish boxing has had is IN SPITE OF the system that's in place, not in any shape or form due to it. I would be pretty immovable on that point.

efb · 20-10-2015 2:27pm

walshb wrote: »

What is an r/j? If you want to get something off your chest regarding my posting to you then speak English to me. Spell it out.

R/j referee/judge common parlance in the boxing world

efb · 20-10-2015 2:28pm

walshb wrote: »

What is an r/j? If you want to get something off your chest regarding my posting to you then speak English to me. Spell it out.

Are you going to apologise for the brain comment???

walshb · 20-10-2015 2:30pm

efb wrote: »

R/j referee/judge common parlance in the boxing world

No, it's not common place. If it was I wouldn't have had to ask. Thanks for the clarification. Now, maybe we can get back to this issue.

efb · 20-10-2015 2:31pm

walshb wrote: »

No, it's not common place. If it was I wouldn't have had to ask. Thanks for the clarification. Now, maybe we cah get back to this issue.

Well if you don't know it mustn't be.

walshb · 20-10-2015 2:35pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

My way of looking at it would be the success Irish boxing has had is IN SPITE OF the system that's in place, not in any shape or form due to it. I would be pretty immovable on that point.

I was expecting this. So, why has it taken 10-11 years for Walsh to now decide that it was an issue? Was the U.S. deal something that gave him the impetus to put it up to the IABA? Kind of throw his weight around so to speak?

gordongekko · 20-10-2015 2:40pm

walshb wrote: »

I was expecting this. So, why has it taken 10-11 years for Walsh to now decide that it was an issue? Was the U.S. deal something that gave him the impetus to put it up to the IABA? Kind of throw his weight around so to speak?

It's called having a drive to succeed. It's when 4th in the world just isn't enough for you but you can't get the changes you need to make them number one.

walshb · 20-10-2015 2:44pm

gordongekko wrote: »

It's called having a drive to succeed. It's when 4th in the world just isn't enough for you but you can't get the changes you need to make them number one.

That's a great way to look at it. Maybe the commitee look at it the other way. Wonder who's right?

Joe_ Public · 20-10-2015 2:46pm

walshb wrote: »

I was expecting this. So, why has it taken 10-11 years for Walsh to now decide that it was an issue? Was the U.S. deal something that gave him the impetus to put it up to the IABA? Kind of throw his weight around so to speak?

Yes. I already stated the US thing was leverage for a better deal, people in work places do it all the time. You'll also remember, stories would periodically drop into the media usually after Olympics that Billy was on verge of quitting, a fuss would break out and things would be sorted. I would never blame him if they were deliberate tactics, because anything he got was well deserved.

It's only my own view: quitting for the US was the nuclear option. Billy Walsh seems like a guy who is a committed homebird, passionately in love with Wexford, his home club, Irish boxing in that order. There was never a time when he was entirely happy in the job, right from the start, but he was prepared to put up with a certain amount of nonsense as long as they left him sufficiently alone to get on with the job. I believe a tipping point was finally reached.

But to answer your initital question: no way a committee selection system should be in operation in elite sport. It's amateurish and out-dated. Democracy isn't always a virtue at this level, top level managers are akin to benevolent dictators, they will consult widely but always ALWAYS have the final say. I see where Bernard Dunne is taking issue, maybe thinks too Billy was getting bit too big for his boots, but I'm not in his corner on this one.

Shurimgreat · 20-10-2015 2:49pm

Good luck to Billy, he doesn't owe anything to anyone.

It will be interesting to see how we fare at Rio however. If standards are maintained and we bring home a few medals then all's well that ends well.

If however we completely underperform, heads will need to roll at the IABA.

walshb · 20-10-2015 2:53pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

But to answer your initital question: no way a committee selection system should be in operation in elite sport. It's amateurish and out-dated. Democracy isn't always a virtue at this level, top level managers are akin to benevolent dictators, they will consult widely but always ALWAYS have the final say. I see where Bernard Dunne is taking issue, maybe thinks too Billy was getting bit too big for his boots, but I'm not in his corner on this one.

Well, it's 2015 now and that has been the way since as long as I can remember. Is there a need for a complete overhaul and removal? Who, apart from Billy have been very vocal on this issue as being wrong? I don't even think that Billy has been overly vocal. I would love to know what Billy actually was asking for as regards autonommy and team selection.

walshb · 20-10-2015 2:58pm

Shurimgreat wrote: »

It will be interesting to see how we fare at Rio however. If standards are maintained and we bring home a few medals then all's well that ends well.

If however we completely underperform, heads will need to roll at the IABA.

The exact kneejerk reaction I would expect from a casual or non boxing fan. Not saying you are that.

There is absolute no guarantee that any of our boxers even win a bout in Rio with or without Walsh. It's that competitive, as well as very subjective.

efb · 20-10-2015 3:06pm

walshb wrote: »

The exact kneejerk reaction I would expect from a casual or non boxing fan. Not saying you are that.

There is absolute no guarantee that any of our boxers even win a bout in Rio with or without Walsh. It's that competitivre, as well as very subjective.

We have an expectation - the Irish taxpayer is pumping A lot of money into it

gordongekko · 20-10-2015 3:10pm

walshb wrote: »

Well, it's 2015 now and that has been the way since as long as I can remember. Is there a need for a complete overhaul and removal? Who, apart from Billy have been very vocal on this issue as being wrong? I don't even think that Billy has been overly vocal. I would love to know what Billy actually was asking for as regards autonommy and team selection.

Can you point me in the direction of any other successful organization that picks a team via committee?

efb · 20-10-2015 3:14pm

http://www.irish-boxing.com/irelands-mind-boggling-medal-record-billy-walsh/

Joe_ Public · 20-10-2015 3:17pm

walshb wrote: »

Well, it's 2015 now and that has been the way since as long as I can remember. Is there a need for a complete overhaul and removal? Who, apart from Billy have been very vocal on this issue as being wrong? I don't even think that Billy has been overly vocal. I would love to know what Billy actually was asking for as regards autonommy and team selection.

No, you're right on that but then when does anything to do with Irish amateur boxing get covered in the media outside of Olympics and World Champs? I don't think it was an issue 10 years ago, because there wasn't as much competition for places. Nowadays there's as many as 3-4 credible Olympic candidates in many divisions so there's much more scope for disagreement.

I can't say anything about Billy's specific grievances because I simply don't know. I just hold it as a fundamental principle of top level sport that a trusted manager should have full power to pick the team he wants and prepare them as he sees fit. I mean just look at Mayo football and what happens when you dilute that power even a bit?

Billy Walsh quits ** SEE MOD WARNING #643 BEFORE POSTING

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