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[Superthread] Mayweather vs Pacman **NO STREAMING REQUESTS**

24567…55

Comments

  • #52
    boxer.fan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 748 ✭✭✭boxer.fan


    Pighead wrote: »
    We could do this all day but ultimately we do not know how he would fare. I find it strange you put Whitaker in ahead of Floyd when to me Whitaker is practically the exact same as Floyd but slower. Floyd beats Whitaker every time for me. But unless we can cobble together a time machine between us we will never know for sure. By the way I'm not saying Floyd is the best ever but I think the fact he's a bit of an arsehole clouds some people's opinion on where he stands in the all time lists. Definite top ten for me.

    I am sick to the back teeth of these Floyd debates but I can't help getting sucked into this one.

    My thinking is that Floyd has been doing himself a dis-service by not boxing more often & facing everyone that wants to have a go. I don't like the guy but he has a great boxing brain, i think he beats everyone in the division right now & probably beats most in the various divisions throughout his career.

    If he had taken the same attitude as GGG or Kovalev, he would then have left no doubt over his legacy as one of the best ever, even if he had lost one or two bouts. As it stands right now there are question marks over him & always will be.


  • #53
    Pighead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,184 ✭✭✭✭Pighead


    boxer.fan wrote: »
    I am sick to the back teeth of these Floyd debates but I can't help getting sucked into this one.

    My thinking is that Floyd has been doing himself a dis-service by not boxing more often & facing everyone that wants to have a go. I don't like the guy but he has a great boxing brain, i think he beats everyone in the division right now & probably beats most in the various divisions throughout his career.

    If he had taken the same attitude as GGG or Kovalev, he would then have left no doubt over his legacy as one of the best ever, even if he had lost one or two bouts. As it stands right now there are question marks over him & always will be.
    With regards to the debate of him being the best ever everything you say is spot on and there will indeed be huge question marks over his right to call himself number 1. But I think he's done enough to secure a place in the top ten.


  • #54
    ebbsy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,968 ✭✭✭ebbsy


    If they fought now I could not see anything other than a clear cut Mayweather win.


  • #55
    Chrissybhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭Chrissybhoy


    dinorebel wrote: »
    To be top 10 for me he would of had to have fought and beaten Pac 5 or 6 years ago and beaten the likes of Mosley and De La Hoya when they were prime not years past.

    What about Mayweather beaten fighters comfortably and staying unbeaten way past his prime. Does he get any credit for that ?


  • #56
    megadodge
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,394 ✭✭✭megadodge


    Strangely enough, as a person who really dislikes Floyd (the person), I have to stand up for him a little bit here.

    I could tackle lots of different points, but the chief one I want to point out to those who keep referring to SRL, Hearns, etc. is that Floyd was at his absolute best at SUPER-FEATHERWEIGHT. While there he didn't just dominate, but he totally destroyed a very deep talent-rich division. There are no question marks! He decimated everybody there. If he retired then knowledgable boxing fans would still be talking about his achievements there and those achievements alone would gain him entry to the Hall of Fame.

    The fact that he's still winning at the top level donkey's years later in a weight division as high as welter/light-middle proves how great he is.

    Yes, I am pissed off that he decided he didn't want to fight Pacman, even though I really like Manny. I always felt Floyd would win (mainly because he's bigger) and could never really understand his reluctance to make that fight. That will always hurt his ranking and rightfully so. But IMO he is definitely an all-time Top 10 boxer. And I can't stand him!

    PS: The fact that he didn't meet DLH or Mosely in their prime is because 1. they were at different weights 2. He's younger, therefore it's hard to match prime with prime.


  • #57
    kryogen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,953 ✭✭✭✭kryogen


    Chrissybhoy wrote: »
    What about Mayweather beaten fighters comfortably and staying unbeaten way past his prime. Does he get any credit for that ?

    He has cherry picked and put stupid demands on his opponents a hell of a lot, so any credit he gets for beating people past his prime is somewhat negated, he has also not sailed through these fights with the same ease as he has in the past.

    He is a great fighter, and he will go down as a great fighter, but I don't think his legacy will stand the test of time in the way it has for some other greats, I think there are too many question marks against him overall.

    His zero is all he will have when he retires (of course plenty would love that) and that looks great on paper, I can't see him taking the PacMan fight for fear of losing that, I think he beats Manny now for what its worth, I also think he would have beaten him 5 years ago but he ducked him. He will have to live with that and I believe it is something that will go against him when people look back in many years to come while talking about the greatest fighters


  • #58
    dinorebel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,283 ✭✭✭dinorebel


    Chrissybhoy wrote: »
    What about Mayweather beaten fighters comfortably and staying unbeaten way past his prime. Does he get any credit for that ?
    He would if he fought someone who's an actual threat to him.


  • #59
    Chrissybhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭Chrissybhoy


    dinorebel wrote: »
    He would if he fought someone who's an actual threat to him.

    Was Canelo not a threat ? Was Cotto not a threat ?


  • #60
    Chrissybhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭Chrissybhoy


    megadodge wrote: »
    Strangely enough, as a person who really dislikes Floyd (the person), I have to stand up for him a little bit here.

    I could tackle lots of different points, but the chief one I want to point out to those who keep referring to SRL, Hearns, etc. is that Floyd was at his absolute best at SUPER-FEATHERWEIGHT. While there he didn't just dominate, but he totally destroyed a very deep talent-rich division. There are no question marks! He decimated everybody there. If he retired then knowledgable boxing fans would still be talking about his achievements there and those achievements alone would gain him entry to the Hall of Fame.

    The fact that he's still winning at the top level donkey's years later in a weight division as high as welter/light-middle proves how great he is.

    Yes, I am pissed off that he decided he didn't want to fight Pacman, even though I really like Manny. I always felt Floyd would win (mainly because he's bigger) and could never really understand his reluctance to make that fight. That will always hurt his ranking and rightfully so. But IMO he is definitely an all-time Top 10 boxer. And I can't stand him!

    PS: The fact that he didn't meet DLH or Mosely in their prime is because 1. they were at different weights 2. He's younger, therefore it's hard to match prime with prime.

    Perfectly put megadodge at least your honest and don't let your dislike for him cloud your judgement


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  • #61
    Henno30
    Registered Users Posts: 2,225 ✭✭✭Henno30


    walshb wrote: »
    FWIW I'd probably take a peak Floyd at WW over Oscar and Mosley. More so over Mosley. Oscar's jab and height could do the trick.

    I think he loses to Hearns and Leonard. Has his moments, but loses. May not even survive 12 if the tow of them connect clean.

    Realistically, who beats Hearns at 147 apart from the two Rays?


  • #62
    kryogen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,953 ✭✭✭✭kryogen


    Chrissybhoy wrote: »
    Was Canelo not a threat ? Was Cotto not a threat ?

    The simple answer is no.


  • #63
    Chrissybhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭Chrissybhoy


    kryogen wrote: »
    The simple answer is no.

    You must be one of a small few that thought that. Everyone was raving about Canelo before Mayweather schooled him and a lot of people would like to see Mayweather fight Cotto again before he retires.


  • #64
    dinorebel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,283 ✭✭✭dinorebel


    Chrissybhoy wrote: »
    Was Canelo not a threat ? Was Cotto not a threat ?
    No (too basic) in Canelos case and 8 years ago maybe for Cotto.
    As I said before he's the best of his generation and it's more than possible we will wait years to see a talent like him again but historically he's just not a top ten fighter.


  • #65
    kryogen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,953 ✭✭✭✭kryogen


    Chrissybhoy wrote: »
    You must be one of a small few that thought that. Everyone was raving about Canelo before Mayweather schooled him and a lot of people would like to see Mayweather fight Cotto again before he retires.

    Are you trying to suggest everybody was saying Canelo was going to beat Mayweather?

    I would disagree very strongly with that, likewise Cotto, I didn't hear too many people suggesting Cotto was going to take Mayweather out, maybe if the fight happened some years earlier, at the right weight, but not then!

    It was still a good showing from Cotto in the middle rounds though, love Cotto


  • #66
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,627 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Henno30 wrote: »
    Realistically, who beats Hearns at 147 apart from the two Rays?

    You know, a guy like Vernon Forrest would have posed big problems, but yes, Hearns was pretty brilliant at WW. You don't knock him out, then prepare to lose on points or by KO.


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  • #67
    Chrissybhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭Chrissybhoy


    kryogen wrote: »
    Are you trying to suggest everybody was saying Canelo was going to beat Mayweather?

    I would disagree very strongly with that, likewise Cotto, I didn't hear too many people suggesting Cotto was going to take Mayweather out, maybe if the fight happened some years earlier, at the right weight, but not then!

    It was still a good showing from Cotto in the middle rounds though, love Cotto

    No I believed Mayweather was going to beat both. But boxing experts and fans were saying that they were a threat. Why are some people calling for Mayweather to fight Cotto again so ?


  • #68
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,627 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    I never believed that Cotto would be a real threat. Cotto was never great, and was less so after the mauling from Margarito and Pacman.

    I didn't give Canelo much of a shot. Always thought his style was not great for Myweather. Props for Floyd in taking the bout, albeit at a 152 lbs catchweight.


  • #69
    kryogen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,953 ✭✭✭✭kryogen


    Chrissybhoy wrote: »
    No I believed Mayweather was going to beat both. But boxing experts and fans were saying that they were a threat. Why are some people calling for Mayweather to fight Cotto again so ?

    Certain boxing experts and fans would also try to convince you Bellew/Cleverly was PPV material or was going to be a good fight.


  • #70
    dinorebel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,283 ✭✭✭dinorebel


    One of the problems with ranking Mayweather historically is the standard of fighters around in his time.If you take the late 70's early 80,s as a benchmark you had.

    Leonard
    Duran
    As absolute elite all time top 10 fighters.

    Hearns
    As top 15 although some would say top 10.

    Just below that rank you have.
    Benitez
    Pryor
    Arguello
    Who would all be top 4 p4p if around now and are better than anyone Floyd has fought.





    Mayweathers best wins are arguably Hernandez Corrales and Castillo with Canelo having the majority of his career ahead of him it's hard to say how good a win that was.
    The one fighter who could be conceivably be ranked close to Floyd is the one man he has never fought which damages both fighters resumes irretrievably for me.


  • #71
    Coolfinish
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3 ✭Coolfinish


    dinorebel wrote: »
    No (too basic) in Canelos case and 8 years ago maybe for Cotto.
    As I said before he's the best of his generation and it's more than possible we will wait years to see a talent like him again but historically he's just not a top ten fighter.

    Cotto is at the peak of his powers now, too many people think he's washed up.


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  • #72
    Coolfinish
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3 ✭Coolfinish


    dinorebel wrote: »
    To be top 10 for me he would of had to have fought and beaten Pac 5 or 6 years ago and beaten the likes of Mosley and De La Hoya when they were prime not years past.

    Whether he fought those fights or not makes absolutely no difference to how good Mayweather is. He's as good as he is regardless of what fights he takes.


  • #73
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,627 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Coolfinish wrote: »
    Cotto is at the peak of his powers now, too many people think he's washed up.

    How do you come to that conclusion? What has he done? He is at MW, and has faced nothing there apart from an old and injured Martinez. Let's see how the peak of his powers stand up to a test against an actual fit top class MW.


  • #74
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,627 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Coolfinish wrote: »
    Whether he fought those fights or not makes absolutely no difference to how good Mayweather is. He's as good as he is regardless of what fights he takes.

    Agreed.

    As mentioned, Mosley and Oscar were a few years ahead of Floyd. Floyd should not be criticized for not meeting them at their peak. He was a SFW/LW fighter then. They were fully established WW fighters.


  • #75
    Henno30
    Registered Users Posts: 2,225 ✭✭✭Henno30


    Cotto is absolutely not at the peak of his powers. He is not a MW and I don't regard him as a particularly strong JMW either. His best performance there came against Floyd who is an average sized WW.

    Just look at how Trout dominated him in the second half of their fight if you want to get a sense of what a sham the Martinez fight was. Even the Sergio that beat Chavez Jr, never mind the prime 154 Sergio, was twice the fighter Austin Trout is.

    He has totally shot for the Cotto fight, and in all honestly if his previous fight hadn't been in Argentina he would already have lost his title to Martin Murray. That tells you where he was at.


  • #76
    Frank Bullitt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,891 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    http://www.tmz.com/2014/12/08/floyd-mayweather-murder-suicide-facetime-witness-earl-hayes-stephanie-moseley/

    Slightly off topic, but apparently Mayweather was on the phone to his friend when he pulled out a gun, shot his wife and then shot himself. Regardless of what you think of Mayweather as a person, this is a pretty awful thing to witness.


  • #77
    Henno30
    Registered Users Posts: 2,225 ✭✭✭Henno30


    Gintonious wrote: »
    http://www.tmz.com/2014/12/08/floyd-mayweather-murder-suicide-facetime-witness-earl-hayes-stephanie-moseley/

    Slightly off topic, but apparently Mayweather was on the phone to his friend when he pulled out a gun, shot his wife and then shot himself. Regardless of what you think of Mayweather as a person, this is a pretty awful thing to witness.

    According to the TMZ report, Mayweather was calling his friend weak for not leaving her after she cheated on him. If that's true he's got a lot to answer for.


  • #78
    Garlicrosemary
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 33 ✭Garlicrosemary


    Henno30 wrote: »
    According to the TMZ report, Mayweather was calling his friend weak for not leaving her after she cheated on him. If that's true he's got a lot to answer for.

    He's got absolutely nothing to answer for if that's true. He should have broken up with her if she cheated.


  • #79
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,627 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Henno30 wrote: »
    According to the TMZ report, Mayweather was calling his friend weak for not leaving her after she cheated on him. If that's true he's got a lot to answer for.

    Mayweather has a lot to answer for?


  • #80
    Spazdarn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,986 ✭✭✭Spazdarn


    walshb wrote: »
    Mayweather has a lot to answer for?

    Manny would have been far more supportive!


  • #81
    dinorebel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,283 ✭✭✭dinorebel


    Spazdarn wrote: »
    Manny would have been far more supportive!
    Manny would of been placing bets on the outcome;)


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  • #82
    newballsplease
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,751 ✭✭✭newballsplease


    Gathering pace now... May 2nd


  • #83
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,627 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    newballsplease wrote: »
    Gathering pace now... May 2nd

    Mayweather is still mentioning random blood and urine tests, so I won't read too much into his 'willingness' to make this fight happen


  • #84
    Henno30
    Registered Users Posts: 2,225 ✭✭✭Henno30


    walshb wrote: »
    Mayweather is still mentioning random blood and urine tests, so I won't read too much into his 'willingness' to make this fight happen

    When Lampley proposed the Pacquiao match-up to him after the Cotto fight, back in May 2012, that's what he immediately came out with as well. Even thought the blood testing issue was settled as long ago as 2011, that's what he brings up now too. It's a slogan, and nothing more. A weapon for Floyd in a PR battle he was getting absolutely murdered in.

    It's quite sickening that this 'rivalry' has taken over boxing coverage yet again. Even worse that they can still sucker people into arguing about it.


  • #85
    Gringo180
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,205 ✭✭✭Gringo180


    I think Khan will be praying to get into the ring with these 2. He will give them both some massive problems. Khans hand speed is absolutely devastating.


  • #86
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    Gringo180 wrote: »
    I think Khan will be praying to get into the ring with these 2. He will give them both some massive problems. Khans hand speed is absolutely devastating.

    He's pretty fast... but both of them at once!?

























    :pac:


  • #87
    2old4dacold
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 817 ✭✭✭2old4dacold


    Henno30 wrote: »
    Even thought the blood testing issue was settled as long ago as 2011


    when you say settled, what was the agreement reached?


  • #88
    kryogen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,953 ✭✭✭✭kryogen


    Gringo180 wrote: »
    I think Khan will be praying to get into the ring with these 2. He will give them both some massive problems. Khans hand speed is absolutely devastating.

    Khan stands there open while throwing 4 and 5 punch combos he will be hitting the deck in record time against Mayweather due to his excellent counter punching ability (though I do think he could trouble Mayweather at this stage) and if he tries to stand and trade with Pac he will also be KO'd imho.

    His speed was incredible, but he is still leaving his chin open a hell of a lot. You won't get away with that against top level opposition


  • #89
    kryogen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,953 ✭✭✭✭kryogen


    2old4dacold wrote: »
    when you say settled, what was the agreement reached?

    Manny submitted to all of the demands.


  • #90
    cowzerp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    kryogen wrote: »
    Manny submitted to all of the demands.

    no he didn't, scared of needles he is, apart from tatoos

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



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  • #91
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,627 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    The drugs tests and demands and PED accusations are smoke and mirrors. Floyd just never really fancied Manny back in 2009/2010.


  • #92
    Spazdarn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,986 ✭✭✭Spazdarn


    walshb wrote: »
    The drugs tests and demands and PED accusations are smoke and mirrors. Floyd just never really fancied Manny back in 2009/2010.

    He likely would have beat him back then, but he's all about calculated risk.


  • #93
    cowzerp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    Spazdarn wrote: »
    He likely would have beat him back then, but he's all about calculated risk.

    easily, not just likely-Manny can't handle good counter punchers and Floyd is the best.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • #94
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,627 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    cowzerp wrote: »
    easily, not just likely-Manny can't handle good counter punchers and Floyd is the best.

    Which makes all those pointless and diversionary tactics all the more stupid. What did he fear? It seems like he had some fear of facing Manny back then.


  • #95
    Spazdarn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,986 ✭✭✭Spazdarn


    Mayweather's not really a knock out artist though, and Manny back then was very active, good punch output. I wouldn't have said easily. It really depends on how dictates the pace of the fight. Manny fought at a frantic pace back then..


  • #96
    cowzerp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    walshb wrote: »
    Which makes all those pointless and diversionary tactics all the more stupid. What did he fear? It seems like he had some fear of facing Manny back then.


    nothing to do with fear, it's well known the hatred the Mayweathers have for Bob Arum, It's all petty but both sides totally responsible in the whole charade, Roach/Arum for always matching Manny with the right styled opponent for example

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



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  • #97
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,627 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    cowzerp wrote: »
    nothing to do with fear, it's well known the hatred the Mayweathers have for Bob Arum, It's all petty but both sides totally responsible in the whole charade, Roach/Arum for always matching Manny with the right styled opponent for example

    Manny didn't match with the right opponents, he matched with opponents; all shapes and sizes and styles.


  • #98
    cowzerp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    walshb wrote: »
    Manny didn't match with the right opponents, he matched with opponents; all shapes and sizes and styles.

    no he didn't ha!! thats gas, always lads who were easy to land clean on, and never good counter punchers bar Marquez and we all know how they went

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • #99
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,627 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    cowzerp wrote: »
    no he didn't ha!! thats gas, always lads who were easy to land clean on, and never good counter punchers bar Marquez and we all know how they went

    He beat Marquez twice. Close fights all them. The KO loss was a fight that Manny was doing really well in. He was ahead on my card until he got caught with a great shot. Manny ducked nobody of note. Took on all comers across several weights.


  • #100
    cowzerp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    walshb wrote: »
    He beat Marquez twice. Close fights all them. The KO loss was a fight that Manny was doing really well in. He was ahead on my card until he got caught with a great shot. Manny ducked nobody of note. Took on all comers across several weights.


    Marquez was robbed and either way, Marquez who Mayweather made look like a complete donkey gave Manny awful trouble, and that was by doing what Floyd is the king at, counter punching.

    He's the only counter puncher of note Manny faced

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • #101
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,627 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    cowzerp wrote: »
    Marquez was robbed and either way, Marquez who Mayweather made look like a complete donkey gave Manny awful trouble, and that was by doing what Floyd is the king at, counter punching.

    He's the only counter puncher of note Manny faced

    He was not robbed in any. First fight Manny won. JMM was very competitive but was difficult to argue him winning 3 fights. The final fight was clear due to the sudden KO. Anyway, your point about Manny being somehow protected and matched with the "right" opponents is off the mark IMO. Just because Floyd beat up JMM means very little when matching Manny and Floyd. Manny and JMM are polar opposites. JMM gave Manny trouble, but still he didn't beat him, and Manny gave him a lot of trouble too.


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