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Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

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    #422
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Why was there no public declaration of how the tender was decided?

    What has been disclosed so far has been pretty much the same for both the Waterford contract (won by Bus Eireann) and the Dublin Suburban contract (won by Go-Ahead Ireland) which were the first two competitive tendering contests that have been held for routes previously held by state operators.


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    #423
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Go-Ahead are now looking for mechanics
    https://www.go-aheaddublin.ie/careers/head-office/heavy-vehicle-mechanic/


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    #424
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    devnull wrote: »
    What has been disclosed so far has been pretty much the same for both the Waterford contract (won by Bus Eireann) and the Dublin Suburban contract (won by Go-Ahead Ireland) which were the first two competitive tendering contests that have been held for routes previously held by state operators.

    Bearing in mind that the entire BMO Tender process ran well over the projected time scale,it is a matter of no little concern that the details of that process are not fully available to the public.

    The closest that any of the responsible agencies has come to "Publication" of the details is in on the NTA's own website well concealed in publications/all-documents-published/ (Bus Market Opening Frequently Asked Questions)
    2. How did the tender process work?
    1. The tender assessments were conducted by two separate teams, price and quality. The two assessments were conducted with no information exchange between the teams until following detailed assessments, draft scores were awarded.
    2. Only then did the two teams meet to consider if there were any inconsistencies between the price document and the quality document which were provided separately in the tenders.
    3. The tender board was made up of three NTA Executives and an external consultant who has significant experience of bus tendering.
    4. The weighting ratio between quality considerations and price considerations was 35:65
    5. This was considered by the NTA as the best fit for this competition.

    If there is evidence of the Process being fraudulently applied,then that evidence needs to be heard and deliberated upon,if the evidence is'nt there,then it's STFU time I'm afraid.

    I would,at the very least expect an explanation from the NTA as to the reason/s for the delay in providing the full disclousure of what the actual tender process entailed.

    Once the decision was announced and the statutory waiting period had passed,then the full details of that Tender Process should have been in the Public Domain.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #425
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,473 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    It'll be discounted under the usual "Commercial Sensitivity" rules, won't it?
    The whole tender process is designed as the only way to get rid of Dublin Bus as an entity (or at the very least force it to change and be fit for purpose), the NTA are hardly going to come out and say this though are they?


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    #426
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,665 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    It'll be discounted under the usual "Commercial Sensitivity" rules, won't it?
    The whole tender process is designed as the only way to get rid of Dublin Bus as an entity (or at the very least force it to change and be fit for purpose), the NTA are hardly going to come out and say this though are they?

    Absolutely, but 'they don't want to' isn't good enough reason not to show the evidence of their decisions though.

    This is where the lack of responsibility and accountability of the NTA is damaging.


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    #427
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    It's just another way of pissing money out on consultants and other extreme expenses and quangos.

    dB may have it's issues and of course it does but we will be left with a hefty bill as a tax payer.


    I don't have any trust in these departments or government officials.


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    #428
    nilescraneo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭nilescraneo


    I've no trust in Dublin Bus to ever change from operating solely to suit themselves, as opposed to the (high) fare paying public.

    If it takes a few consultants and quangos to finally change that, then so be it. Lesser of two evils in the long run.


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    #429
    ITV2
    Registered Users Posts: 450 ✭✭ITV2


    And at a cost to me/you the tax payer.


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    #430
    Night Falls
    Subscribers Posts: 171 ✭✭Night Falls


    dfx- wrote: »
    Absolutely, but 'they don't want to' isn't good enough reason not to show the evidence of their decisions though.

    This is where the lack of responsibility and accountability of the NTA is damaging.

    From being involved in construction tenders for over 10 years there 100% are commercial reasons for the results not being made publicly available. The evidence of their decisions is given to the various tendering parties (i.e. their scores and an explanation as to how the scores were arrived at are in the letters that go to the successful and unsuccessful tenderers) and it is up to them to decide whether they feel that they've been treated unfairly or not. There are any number of obvious reasons as to why a bidding party won't want their results being made public, the obvious one being that it could well give their competitors an edge in future tenders.


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    #431
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    nilescraneo wrote: »
    I've no trust in Dublin Bus to ever change from operating solely to suit themselves, as opposed to the (high) fare paying public.

    If it takes a few consultants and quangos to finally change that, then so be it. Lesser of two evils in the long run.

    Eh... It's the nta who set the fares that are so high that you speak of.

    Go ahead gets a set price no matter what but I am sure they can apply for additional costs but we won't be told that.


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    #432
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    Eh... It's the nta who set the fares that are so high that you speak of.

    For a number of years the National Transport Authority listed both the proposed Leap Fare increases by Dublin Bus as well as the new Leap Fare that they had determined would be acceptable and would take effect.

    You will actually find most of the time for these occasions, Dublin Bus proposed steeper rises to fare bands, especially on Leap Card fares, than the NTA would allow because it felt the rises were too high for customers.

    In fact, for 2017 fares Dublin Bus proposed increases to almost all adult single fare bands when the NTA wouldn't sanction any increase across any of these fare bands.
    Go ahead gets a set price no matter what but I am sure they can apply for additional costs but we won't be told that.

    As would Dublin Bus if they had won and as will Bus Eireann on the Waterford routes.


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    #433
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,990 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    nilescraneo wrote: »
    I've no trust in Dublin Bus to ever change from operating solely to suit themselves, as opposed to the (high) fare paying public.

    If it takes a few consultants and quangos to finally change that, then so be it. Lesser of two evils in the long run.

    even if for argument sake it was to cost hundreds of billions? a case of "so be it. Lesser of two evils in the long run" even if it meant taking money from other services to pay for it?

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #434
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,495 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    end of the road wrote: »
    even if for argument sake it was to cost hundreds of billions? a case of "so be it. Lesser of two evils in the long run" even if it meant taking money from other services to pay for it?

    Well it would never cost that, so why make an argument like that!

    For hundreds of billions you could have a 20 metro lines in Dublin and not a single bus needed :rolleyes:


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    #435
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,990 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    bk wrote: »
    Well it would never cost that, so why make an argument like that!

    i know that and you know that. what i am interested in doing is to see how far he would go in taking his viewpoint hence using an extreme costing.
    bk wrote: »
    For hundreds of billions you could have a 20 metro lines in Dublin and not a single bus needed

    we could but we can't even get 1 never mind 20.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #436
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,473 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    It's just another way of pissing money out on consultants and other extreme expenses and quangos.

    As opposed to just letting DB operated as it had previous and wasting millions on outdated working practices, equipment, inappropriate vehicles specification, empty running etc.

    I'll happily take the pain of short term costs of consultancy and set in return for cheaper and more viable long term operations thanks.


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    #437
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,990 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    As opposed to just letting DB operated as it had previous and wasting millions on outdated working practices, equipment, inappropriate vehicles specification, empty running etc.

    empty running is not unique to dublin bus. outdated equipment is what you get with when funding hasn't been availible for a long time. outdated working practices aren't unique to dublin bus and even then one's idea of outdated is another's modern.
    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    I'll happily take the pain of short term costs of consultancy and set in return for cheaper and more viable long term operations thanks.

    the operations are very cheap and fully viable. the only way to get them cheaper now is to most likely eradicate good terms and conditions which thankfully the unions won't allow that to happen.
    if you are happy to take the pain of supposed short term costs of consultancy then for how long are you willing to take that pain, and how much are you willing to pay for it?

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #438
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,473 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    end of the road wrote: »
    empty running is not unique to dublin bus. outdated equipment is what you get with when funding hasn't been availible for a long time. outdated working practices aren't unique to dublin bus and even then one's idea of outdated is another's modern.
    OK so, lets just do nothing. Some other places experience the same things, great.
    outdated equipment is what you get with when funding hasn't been availible for a long time
    . No, buying outdated equipment , such os on board ticket machines...
    the operations are very cheap and fully viable.
    compared to where or what metrics, have you a full cost analysis to back up that claim? Because all of what has occured in the last several years at the behest of the NTA would argue otherwise.
    the only way to get them cheaper now is to most likely eradicate good terms and conditions which thankfully the unions won't allow that to happen.
    So the only definite way is to maybe do something, genius. I wish I had though of that!:rolleyes:
    if you are happy to take the pain of supposed short term costs of consultancy then for how long are you willing to take that pain, and how much are you willing to pay for it?
    doesn't matter as long as the long term savings or outcomes are more beneficial than any costs.


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    #439
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,990 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    OK so, lets just do nothing. Some other places experience the same things, great.
    . No, buying outdated equipment , such os on board ticket machines...

    compared to where or what metrics, have you a full cost analysis to back up that claim? Because all of what has occured in the last several years at the behest of the NTA would argue otherwise.

    So the only definite way is to maybe do something, genius. I wish I had though of that!
    doesn't matter as long as the long term savings or outcomes are more beneficial than any costs.

    so for arguments sake, would you be happy to pay multiple billions like i asked another poster?

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #440
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    end of the road wrote: »
    so for arguments sake, would you be happy to pay multiple billions like i asked another poster?

    For arguments sake would you continue to blindly support and defend every thing Dublin Bus does if it costs multiple billions?


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    #441
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,665 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    nilescraneo wrote: »
    I've no trust in Dublin Bus to ever change from operating solely to suit themselves, as opposed to the (high) fare paying public.

    If it takes a few consultants and quangos to finally change that, then so be it. Lesser of two evils in the long run.

    This is the sort of thing I was mentioning earlier.


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    #442
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,990 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    For arguments sake would you continue to blindly support and defend every thing Dublin Bus does if it costs multiple billions?

    no, as i never have blindly supported and defended every thing Dublin Bus does.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #443
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    end of the road wrote: »
    no, as i never have blindly supported and defended every thing Dublin Bus does.

    end of the road wrote: »
    empty running is not unique to dublin bus. outdated equipment is what you get with when funding hasn't been availible for a long time. outdated working practices aren't unique to dublin bus and even then one's idea of outdated is another's modern.
    Blind support and defence


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    #444
    StreetLight
    Registered Users Posts: 1,392 ✭✭✭StreetLight


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Blind support and defence

    Those views could apply to and be valid for any bus company.


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    #445
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    StreetLight wrote: »
    Those views could apply to and be valid for any bus company.

    I don't know I've used Wexford Bus a fair bit and can't say I would be able to apply those argument to them but that's besides the point in this case EOTR is using them as a blanket defense of DB with no admission of fault or a willingness to improve. It's simply a case "that's the way it is and always will be".

    I could pull out hundreds of other such posts but we aren't here to discuss EOTR. My post was simply to highlight there ridiculousness of his Billion euro argument


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    #446
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,990 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    I don't know I've used Wexford Bus a fair bit and can't say I would be able to apply those argument to them but that's besides the point in this case EOTR is using them as a blanket defense of DB with no admission of fault or a willingness to improve. It's simply a case "that's the way it is and always will be".

    I could pull out hundreds of other such posts but we aren't here to discuss EOTR. My post was simply to highlight there ridiculousness of his Billion euro argument

    there is no blanket defense of DB with no admission of fault or a willingness to improve.
    the billions argument was an attempt to flush out more of the opinions of the posters i responded to, to see how far they would take their viewpoint. it was not an argument.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #447
    StreetLight
    Registered Users Posts: 1,392 ✭✭✭StreetLight


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    I don't know I've used Wexford Bus a fair bit and can't say I would be able to apply those argument to them but that's besides the point in this case EOTR is using them as a blanket defense of DB with no admission of fault or a willingness to improve. It's simply a case "that's the way it is and always will be".

    I could pull out hundreds of other such posts but we aren't here to discuss EOTR. My post was simply to highlight there ridiculousness of his Billion euro argument

    No more ridiculous than an earlier post, which alluded to never needing a bus if we had 20 Metro lines.


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    #448
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    end of the road wrote: »
    there is no blanket defense of DB with no admission of fault or a willingness to improve.
    the billions argument was an attempt to flush out more of the opinions of the posters i responded to, to see how far they would take their viewpoint. it was not an argument.

    So off you go there now. What areas of poor operation are Dublin Bus at fault for and how do you suggest improving them. Perhaps you can start a new thread on it?


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    #449
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    So off you go there now. What areas of poor operation are Dublin Bus at fault for and how do you suggest improving them. Perhaps you can start a new thread on it?

    Still waiting EOTR.


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    #450
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    So off you go there now. What areas of poor operation are Dublin Bus at fault for and how do you suggest improving them. Perhaps you can start a new thread on it?
    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Still waiting EOTR.

    Less of this please - I consider it baiting.

    - Moderator


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    #451
    liger
    Registered Users Posts: 756 ✭✭✭liger


    Now hiring driving instructors


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