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The EU 'rescue' package comes at a big price

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    #122
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,071 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    sameoldname wrote: »
    That's what I though too but I could only find a figure of €59.3 billion for exchequer receipts even though total spending last year was €77.5 billion and apparently we ran a surplus. I ran with the figures I could find because you know the way things are around here.


    https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/governmentaccounts/

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/gfsa/governmentfinancestatisticsapril2020/


    2019 revenues, incl tax and SI = 87,453m

    Tax = 64,369m
    SI = 14,512m

    Exchequer excludes SI.


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    #123
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    brickster69 wrote: »
    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Investors can't get get enough sovereign debt at the moment which is reflected in our yields as well as everyone else.

    The only reason the yields are that way is because the ECB keeps printing debt and buying them.
    fyp


    The big issue for all of us is the simple fact that all money is debt, money doesn't exist until it it "lent into existence", and ALL of it must be repaid back to the bank to destroy it.
    But the second part of the equation is impossible to complete as interest must be paid, so you must borrow to pay off the previous loan. Governments have been falling for this con trick for centuries. Check out "the money masters" the video is available on youtube.
    They will have to stop at some point.


    The only way to stop them (central bankers)is to revoke their privileges to lend money and allow the state to issue debt-free money, spend it into existence and tax it out when it "rests" in the vauilt of the elite.


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    #124
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,618 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Usually irexit root and branch madness out in force.


    Signed up members to ir Facebook each and everyone. Paying subs to here conmen speak.


    Lol.


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    #125
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,071 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Deleted User wrote: »
    fyp
    But the second part of the equation is impossible to complete as interest must be paid, so you must borrow to pay off the previous loan. Governments have been falling for this con trick for centuries. Check out "the money masters" the video is available on youtube.

    I once met somebody who said this - that people must borrow to pay off the interest on the previous loan.

    There was no talking to this person.

    I myself have borrowed mortgages, and I am paying the interest out of my income.

    I do not need to borrow to pay the interest.

    But this person was convinced they were correct.

    It's often a sign that a person doesn't know much when they are absolutely convinced that they are correct.


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    #126
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Geuze wrote: »
    I once met somebody who said this - that people must borrow to pay off the interest on the previous loan.

    There was no talking to this person.

    I myself have borrowed mortgages, and I am paying the interest out of my income.

    I do not need to borrow to pay the interest.

    But this person was convinced they were correct.

    It's often a sign that a person doesn't know much when they are absolutely convinced that they are correct.
    OK if there is a loan of €100 @10%; that means a repayment of €110 is required to repay the loan.
    Where does to extra €10 come from?


    When you consider that 100% of all money in circulation is borrowed at interest and you have to find the extra money to pay that interest, you should now be able to see that you have a perpetual money lending system than can never stop lending money otherwise debts become impossible to service.
    So explain to me where you think the extra money came from for you to pay that mortgage?

    As someone who is almost at the finishing line of a 35 yr mortgage, I can tell you that a lot more money was borrowed by the real economy to repay that mortgage than the original capital loan.
    It was not borrowed by me personally, but by the business that pays my wages, who will roll up those loans indefinitely into the future.

    The new EU loans will be exactly the same, repaid by future governments with additional loans, this is a global situation, not just an EU bashing issue.


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    #127
    sameoldname
    Registered Users Posts: 897 ✭✭✭sameoldname


    Deleted User wrote: »
    OK if there is a loan of €100 @10% that means a repayment of €110 is required to repay the loan.
    Where does to extra €10 come from?


    When you consider that 100% of all money in circulation is borrowed at interest and you have to find the extra money to pay that interest, you should now be able to see that you have a perpetual money lending system than can never stop lending money otherwise debts become impossible to service.
    So explain to me where you think the extra money came from for you to pay that mortgage?

    As someone who is almost at the finishing line of a 35 yr mortgage, I can tell you that a lot more money was borrowed by the real economy to repay that mortgage than the original capital loan.
    It was not borrowed by me personally, but by the business that pays my wages, who will roll up those loans indefinitely into the future.

    The new EU loans will be exactly the same, repaid by future governments with additional loans, this is a global situation, not just an EU bashing issue.

    But if you don't have interest why would you lend money at all? Due to inflation the value of the money you get back will drop by ~2% year on year. You'd be losing money.


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    #128
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    sameoldname wrote: »
    But if you don't have interest why would you lend money at all? Due to inflation the value of the money you get back will drop by ~2% year on year. You'd be losing money.
    You don't lend money into existence, you spend it into existence instead*, you also have a hard limit on the quantity of money in the economic system. This prevents inflation and taxation prevents it from "pooling" out of circulation.

    Issuing currency with an expiry date also prevents the "mattress money" phenomenon from occurring, the money must remain in circulation to remain valid.
    personal savings will be protected with longer expiry dates.

    *UBI, capital spending and public sector wages will be the main ways the currency would be injected into the economy and taxation will remove it to allow the government to "recycle it"


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    #129
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Loans can exist in perpetuity as long as the state or it's legally binding successor (Article 35 of the Vienna Convention) continues to exist. Such loans also have the advantage of being reduced over time by whatever inflation there is.


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    #130
    sameoldname
    Registered Users Posts: 897 ✭✭✭sameoldname


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You don't lend money into existence, you spend it into existence instead*, you also have a hard limit on the quantity of money in the economic system. This prevents inflation and taxation prevents it from "pooling" out of circulation.

    Issuing currency with an expiry date also prevents the "mattress money" phenomenon from occurring, the money must remain in circulation to remain valid.
    personal savings will be protected with longer expiry dates.

    *UBI, capital spending and public sector wages will be the main ways the currency would be injected into the economy and taxation will remove it to allow the government to "recycle it"

    So basically the government funds the economy rather than the economy funding the government? Unless every country on earth uses the same system I fail to see how it could work.
    To increase the size of the economy the government would have to build more and more stuff which would eventually have no use because there's only so much infrastructure a country needs or you'd have to keep on increasing public sector wages and UBI putting upwards pressure on private sector wages. How would your economy remain competitive?


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    #131
    manfield
    Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭manfield


    fash wrote: »
    Surely we have got and are getting far far more out of our EU membership already.


    What has the EU ever done for us?


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    #132
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    sameoldname wrote: »
    So basically the government funds the economy rather than the economy funding the government? Unless every country on earth uses the same system I fail to see how it could work.
    To increase the size of the economy the government would have to build more and more stuff which would eventually have no use because there's only so much infrastructure a country needs or you'd have to keep on increasing public sector wages and UBI putting upwards pressure on private sector wages. How would your economy remain competitive?
    The infinite growth falicy of economic activity, there is only a finite amount of money in the system which sets a hard limit on growth.


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    #133
    sameoldname
    Registered Users Posts: 897 ✭✭✭sameoldname


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The infinite growth falicy of economic activity, there is only a finite amount of money in the system which sets a hard limit on growth.

    I agree the infinite growth model is the root of a lot of problems in the world economy but it doesn't refute what I'm asking.
    If your currency has a fixed supply and assuming other governments actually accept that currency in exchange for goods, how would you prevent your currency increasing or decreasing in value relative to other currencies?
    If you've a fixed money supply then you've also have fixed public sector wages and UBI under your model. So basically, if your currency appreciates you've made your workers less competitive and if it decreases you've made them poorer. You could increase their wages to compensate but wouldn't that just make their problems worse? You can reduce the value of your currency by printing but you haven't improved your competitiveness because you increased wages. On the other hand if you increase wages when the currency drops you run the risk of reducing the value of your currency even further. How do you control for this?


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    #134
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,071 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Deleted User wrote: »
    OK if there is a loan of €100 @10% that means a repayment of €110 is required to repay the loan.
    Where does to extra €10 come from?

    The interest payment comes from my income.

    I sell my labour, I get paid, out of that I pay the interest.


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    #135
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,071 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Deleted User wrote: »
    When you consider that 100% of all money in circulation is borrowed at interest and you have to find the extra money to pay that interest,

    All money in circulation is borrowed?

    The M1 narrow money supply is made up of:
    • cash in circulation
    • current account balances

    These are assets, owned by people.

    I own cash in my wallet, I own the balance in my current account.

    You say these money assets are borrowed?

    Can you tell me who did I borrow them from?


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    #136
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,071 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The infinite growth falicy of economic activity, there is only a finite amount of money in the system which sets a hard limit on growth.

    There is not a finite amount of money.

    The money supply is growing.

    Here is the data:


    http://sdw.ecb.europa.eu/reports.do?node=1000003478


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    #137
    Pa ElGrande
    Registered Users Posts: 3,495 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    German car industry gets cold shoulder from Berlin
    A programme that purely supports the sale of electric vehicles could lead policymakers to “abandon the necessary technological neutrality”, he warned. Green cars already carry a subsidy of up to €6,000 in Germany, and account for under 10 per cent of models purchased.

    Furthermore, the country’s car industry is even more reliant on exports than it was a decade ago, with almost two-thirds of demand coming from abroad.

    Since the share of imported cars in Germany has also risen, a subsidy “would help foreign suppliers more than before”, Mr Felbermayr said.


    source


    Macron wants France to be Europe's top clean car producer
    PARIS (Reuters) - President Emmanuel Macron announced an 8 billion euro ($8.8 billion) plan on Tuesday to make France the top producer of clean vehicles in Europe and urged French carmakers to make vehicles in their own country.

    <snip>

    France was Europe’s top producer of electric and hybrid cars in 2019, with almost 240,000 vehicles, but IHS data show it is set to be overtaken this year by Germany.

    source


    Handy that, the French use the cover of climate change and bailouts to take car production from Germany.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



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    #138
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,056 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Pa ElGrande wrote: »
    Handy that, the French use the cover of climate change and bailouts to take car production from Germany.
    While Macron evidently hopes that the French carmakers will step up to take advantage of the opportunties offered, the incentives he's providing (or, rather, in the increased incentives that he's providing) are not confined to electric vehicles produced in France. A French purchaser of a German EV will benefit from the same subsidy.

    So this isn't primarily aimed at incentivising a shift in production to France; though no doubt if that happens Macron will welcome it. It's mainly aimed at supporting the French motor distribution network, whose forecourts are clogged with unsold vehicles that are acting as a drag on the market.


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    #139
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Geuze wrote: »
    There is not a finite amount of money.

    The money supply is growing.

    Here is the data:


    http://sdw.ecb.europa.eu/reports.do?node=1000003478
    I was actually referring to a possible debt-free monitory system that would have a hard limit on the money in circulation, the current monitory system is infinite and the percentage of that money that is "parked" in the accounts of the elite is rapidly increasing.
    https://www.top10feeds.com/2019/12/who-is-top-10-richest-people-in-world_5.html

    How can one person have $155.900,000,000.00 give or take a few million of small change in their personal possession, while thousands of his staff struggle to pay their bills.
    The system is broken, I think that everyone can agree on that, The question is how to fix it without forcing our descendants into more debt slavery!


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