The EU 'rescue' package comes at a big price

Kermit.de.frog

This is gas.

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/eus-750bn-aid-plan-comes-with-tax-sting-in-the-tail-for-ireland-39239811.html

But Mr Varadkar did not address the issue of proposed new EU taxes to help fund interest costs and repayments for the scheme, which are due to kick in after 2028. The plans also contain various new EU levies and Irish concerns here centre on a proposed tax on big tech firms such as Facebook and Google.

Brussels diplomats suggested that such new taxes may in a worst-case scenario apply only after 2028. Others pointed out that tax changes still require unanimous agreement, and Ireland is not alone in opposing change - but it is clear the pressure on Ireland over its favourable company tax regime continues.

For the moment at least, Ireland is likely to continue borrowing on the open market which is cheaper than even low-interest EU-backed loans. But the grants packages appear to be of considerable interest and their focus on environmental protection and tackling climate change may help boost current government-formation talks.

Maybe I have missed something but I don't recall giving permission along with every other Irish person for Brussels to tax us.

From 2028 we'll start being taxed from Brussels apparently - who knew!?

So we should accept €2 billion (Ireland's miniscule quota in this "rescue") from the EU in return for what? Calling Brussels our capital and surrendering what is left of our fiscal and just about every other vestige of sovereignty?

Doesn't sound like a great deal.

The government should say no and simply borrow the money ourselves.

Peregrinus

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Maybe I have missed something but I don't recall giving permission along with every other Irish person for Brussels to tax us.

What you've missed, perhaps, is that this isn't an announcement of an intention by Brussels to tax us. It's a proposal that Brussels be given powers to tax us, submitted to us for our consideration, because the proposal can only be implemented if we give permission.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

From 2028 we'll start being taxed from Brussels apparently - who knew!?

Nobody knew, because it's not true.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So we should accept €2 billion (Ireland's miniscule quota in this "rescue") from the EU in return for what? Calling Brussels our capital and surrendering what is left of our fiscal and just about every other vestige of sovereignty?

Doesn't sound like a great deal.

The government should say no and simply borrow the money ourselves.

Well, possibly.

But a less hysterical reaction might serve us better. There is no suggestion that we should "call Brussels our capital" or surrender "what is left of our fiscal and just about every other vestige of sovereignty". The EU already sets our customs tariffs - has done since we joined. If giving it any competence in relation to any tax is "ceding what is left of our sovereignty" then we ceded what was left of our sovereignty in 1973. If, on the other hand, giving the EU any competence in relation to any tax is not automatically a complete cession of sovereignty, then it's not obvious that ceding this particular competence in relation to this particular tax would be.

By all means make the case that it would be. But do be prepared to actually make the case. Hysteria is no substitute for reasoned argument.

Kermit.de.frog

It's not hysterical, that's the typical reactionary comment.

This is very real and our sovereignty is being chipped away and the Irish people will need to decide whether they want to be part of a federal Europe where Brussels is indeed our capital, sets our taxes, defence and foreign policy and we are part of a country called Europe.

This is where this is going.

I think we are better off getting out before this. I see trouble ahead on the continent if this path continues. There will be trouble in Ireland. I don't think we should be a part of that.

That's my opinion and it is far from hysterical.

I'm a democrat - we have a vote on a federal Europe - if the Irish people accept it so be it. At least have the vote to avoid trouble because right now it does not look like we are getting a vote on any of these plans.

We have gone in the space of two months from where the EU had no right to borrow money as a sovereign entity to exactly that. That's a federal structure no matter what way it's dressed up.

And done under cloak of crisis.

Darc19

It's the indo.

Do you really believe everything in the indo.

Peregrinus

You've gone from "complete surrender of our sovereignty" to "our sovereignty is being chipped away", and an objection which was based on the EU's power to tax is now transmuted into an objection based on the EU's power to borrow.

When you have to shift your position so radically in response to just one reply to your post, doesn't that implicitly concede that, yeah, maybe your inititial position wasn't that well thought out? And your description of my reply as "reactionary" is, well, not a little ironic. If anybody is being reactionary here, it's surely you?

I completely agree with you that there are some serious issues here. I just don't think your approach to the topic is aimed at bringing them out.

_Kaiser_

It's very clear that certain factions within the already politically divided Europe are going to use this crisis to forward the Fedealisation agenda using the blackmail threat of "sign up or no bailout for you".
They did it not even a decade ago to force austerity policies on those weakest members to benefit/protect the bigger players. This will be no different.

But Kermit is right when he says that the divisions are deepening and the cracks getting even wider among the EU "family". The eastern members are already unhappy. Spain, Italy and Greece of course, and the general population doesn't consider themselves "European" over their national identities (and why should they? There IS no European identity. There's trade agreements, cheap flights and shopping, and the ability to work in other countries. All of which we had before to varying degrees).

I can see another round of austerity or maybe letting Turkey in/flood the bloc with more "refugees"/economic chancers being the straw that breaks the back of it. The only question then is how messy the fallout will be.

Here at home of course, our weak inept political parties will hang on to the end doing as they're told, regardless of the impact or long-term consequences to those thy are ACTUALLY supposed to represent (hint: not anyone in Brussels or Berlin).

sydthebeat

we're a very open economy, and soon to be the only english speaking country in the EU which makes us very attractive to UK and US firms.

to be honest €2billion is actually SFA in the context of the overall plan, so we should say thanks but no thanks for this 'rescue package' as a rising EU tide will raise all ships, especially ours.

for example we have been collecting over €1.1 billion EXTRA PER YEAR over the last 5 years in corporation tax.

Harry Palmr

This is going to be discussed on Pat Kenny's Newstalk programme today so you might want to tune in.

I have to say the 2bn mooted for Ireland is almost an insult esp as we're now a net contributor to the EU (before Covid hit it was estimated at nearly 3bn for 2020) look at how much others have been earmarked

From IT

The largest amounts will be available to the countries needing the most help: €81.8 billion for Italy and €77.3 billion for Spain. The Republic is earmarked the relatively small amount of €1.91 billion.

It's nice to think Ireland needs far less help of course but that doesn't butter the parsnips.

Tordelback

sydthebeat wrote: »

we're a very open economy, and soon to be the only english speaking country in the EU which makes us very attractive to UK and US firms.

Malta and the Netherlands too, surely. The Dutch speak better English than most of us do.

Rodney Bathgate

Jog on, Ursula!

Overall I do think the EU is good for Europe and Ireland.

Its a bit like the mafia though, come to us and we will mind you look after you, but you have to obey and you can never leave.

Phoebas

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Jog on, Ursula!

Thought I'd clicked into the comments section of the Express by accident for a second there.

_Kaiser_

Harry Palmr wrote: »

This is going to be discussed on Pat Kenny's Newstalk programme today so you might want to tune in.

I have to say the 2bn mooted for Ireland is almost an insult esp as we're now a net contributor to the EU (before Covid hit it was estimated at nearly 3bn for 2020) look at how much others have been earmarked.

We're seeing in the papers that we're facing into the largest recession in the country's history and they are offering just shy of 2bn (with a string of conditions no doubt).

Ya... thanks but no thanks!

Of course, does anyone really think Leo or Coveney will tell the EU to stuff it? Not a chance! We will pay so they can continue to be the best boys in the class. :rolleyes:

Rodney Bathgate

Phoebas wrote: »

Thought I'd clicked into the comments section of the Express by accident for a second there.

No, boards.ie. I guess you are happy for Merkel's lapdog to screw us over.

fash

Spain, Italy and Greece have been terribly hit by Covid consequences (less tourism etc.) - and have gone through enough trauma since the 2008 financial crisis - young people unemployed for a decade - so long unemployed they became unsuitable for the labour market. They can't take on more debt.
This is the right and the only thing for the EU to do.
And Irish people are complaining we only get €2Bn out of it?
Surely we have got and are getting far far more out of our EU membership already.

Harry Palmr

(Mind you this sort of thing tends to point up how money is spent in wrong areas of the economy. How many billions are going to be thrown at Irish cows this year? Meanwhile the university sector is hugely
underfunded and without a good third/fourth level education the country has no future anyway)

That discussion on www.newstalk.com is now in a moment as I type.

Ronaldinho

On the face of it we've been completely ****** over.

So you'd have to think that maybe there's a quid pro quo that will go unspoken - possibly around corporation tax.

The amount Hungary are slated to receive is a total farce, given what Orban has been at over the past few months.

_Kaiser_

Ronaldinho wrote: »

On the face of it we've been completely ****** over.

So you'd have to think that maybe there's a quid pro quo that will go unspoken - possibly around corporation tax.

The amount Hungary are slated to receive is a total farce, given what Orban has been at over the past few months.

The argument in the NT interview seemed to be that we're a net contributor since 2014, are one of the wealthiest members, and have gotten lots in the previous decades.

In other words, it's our turn now. But the issue with that (as I said above) is that there is no overriding EU identity. FFS look at how much friction there is locally with many outside Dublin resentful that Dubs get everything. Imagine how these people will feel when they're paying taxes for entirely different countries.

Guy:Incognito

Harry Palmr wrote: »

This is going to be discussed on Pat Kenny's Newstalk programme today so you might want to tune in.

I have to say the 2bn mooted for Ireland is almost an insult esp as we're now a net contributor to the EU (before Covid hit it was estimated at nearly 3bn for 2020) look at how much others have been earmarked

From IT



It's nice to think Ireland needs far less help of course but that doesn't butter the parsnips.

Do we need more than the 2b? Do we need any of it at all?

Did an eu computer come up with the figures and then just inform the people or was it decided by the eu, which we are part of?


If we were earmarked for 20b the cries would be that we are having 20b of debt forced on us. We are smaller, we need less. We also contribute less, again, as we are smaller.

Guy:Incognito

fash wrote: »

Surely we have got and are getting far far more out of our EU membership already.

Theres a group of people that will complain and latch on to anything vaguely not positive to show how the eu is bad. This includes us ever not being a net recipient in the eu. Ireland should only ever take from a pot.

It's like priti patel bringing in laws that would have seen her own parents not being allowed enter the UK had they been in place when they were going over. Severe case of pulling up ladders once your on board.

BluePlanet

It's a bit pathetic looking for a bailout from the EU while refusing the 15B tax windfall from Apple.

893bet

BluePlanet wrote: »

It's a bit pathetic looking for a bailout from the EU while refusing the 15B tax windfall from Apple.

This windfall would never come Ireland’s way. It was funnelled through Ireland at a low tax rate. If that is deemed to have been incorrect the tax due will be due in the relevant jurisdictions of which a tiny percentage will be owed to Ireland.

Stop reading the Sun.

Harpon

This is outrageous and yet FG have come out in support of it. On a per capita basis we should be getting about 7 billion.

This is simply a transfer of wealth from Irish taxpayers to those benefiting the most- German/French/Italian taxpayers. They claim these countries are getting more proportionally because they have been ‘harder hit.’ Very hard to believe these countries will be any worse off than Ireland. And funny how the Germans never thought of doing that when Ireland was amongst the hardest hit during the financial crises.

Oh and that’s not all. As if that wasn’t bad enough, the plan requires tax reforms, and the introduction of digital taxes, which will be the end of Ireland’s status as a tax haven, our economy is going to get decimated from this.

greenfield21

The apple money will be going to Europe though which will be good for all of us, I thought we were meant to be working together as europeans.

Harry Palmr

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Do we need more than the 2b? Do we need any of it at all?

Did an eu computer come up with the figures and then just inform the people or was it decided by the eu, which we are part of?

If we were earmarked for 20b the cries would be that we are having 20b of debt forced on us. We are smaller, we need less. We also contribute less, again, as we are smaller.

The package is 500bn grants and 250bn loans .

Do we need it, good question. No doubt we'll take it and accept a deal of some sort on how this is funded (see quote below) but right now Ireland could raise the loan part of the fund on the open market without bother and maybe the repayments could actually turn out to be cheaper esp as part of a larger borrowed fund which we will need in any event.

The commission has proposed that it should be allowed to raise money itself to pay back the borrowing.

It has suggested it could do this through taxes designed to pursue its political aims of more equitable taxation and combating climate change. It has laid out ideas for a tax on imports into the EU based on the carbon emissions involved in their production, a digital tax, or a tax on large companies.

Little of which will appeal to Ireland.

ArchXStanton

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It's very clear that certain factions within the already politically divided Europe are going to use this crisis to forward the Fedealisation agenda using the blackmail threat of "sign up or no bailout for you".
They did it not even a decade ago to force austerity policies on those weakest members to benefit/protect the bigger players. This will be no different.

But Kermit is right when he says that the divisions are deepening and the cracks getting even wider among the EU "family". The eastern members are already unhappy. Spain, Italy and Greece of course, and the general population doesn't consider themselves "European" over their national identities (and why should they? There IS no European identity. There's trade agreements, cheap flights and shopping, and the ability to work in other countries. All of which we had before to varying degrees).

I can see another round of austerity or maybe letting Turkey in/flood the bloc with more "refugees"/economic chancers being the straw that breaks the back of it. The only question then is how messy the fallout will be.

Here at home of course, our weak inept political parties will hang on to the end doing as they're told, regardless of the impact or long-term consequences to those thy are ACTUALLY supposed to represent (hint: not anyone in Brussels or Berlin).

Wonder which countries will be the Patsy this time, there's no free lunch with the EU

Thelonious Monk

What has the EU ever done for us?

ArchXStanton

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It's not hysterical, that's the typical reactionary comment.

This is very real and our sovereignty is being chipped away and the Irish people will need to decide whether they want to be part of a federal Europe where Brussels is indeed our capital, sets our taxes, defence and foreign policy and we are part of a country called Europe.

This is where this is going.

I think we are better off getting out before this. I see trouble ahead on the continent if this path continues. There will be trouble in Ireland. I don't think we should be a part of that.

That's my opinion and it is far from hysterical.

I'm a democrat - we have a vote on a federal Europe - if the Irish people accept it so be it. At least have the vote to avoid trouble because right now it does not look like we are getting a vote on any of these plans.

We have gone in the space of two months from where the EU had no right to borrow money as a sovereign entity to exactly that. That's a federal structure no matter what way it's dressed up.

And done under cloak of crisis.

You really think the plebs will get a vote on a federal Europe? And even if some of them do they'll have to vote again or just get outright ignored, they seem to be in a mad dash to federalise or drive the "project" in such a direction were countries will have no choice since Brexit, it's a dirty organisation

Varik

Helping hand to those hit hardest and a bribe for the Eurosceptics and at Ireland expense.

Harry Palmr

Already a thread on this here https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058081738

Geuze

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

We have gone in the space of two months from where the EU had no right to borrow money as a sovereign entity to exactly that. That's a federal structure no matter what way it's dressed up.

Didn't the EFSF and EFSM / ESM borrow on behalf of the EU, and then lend to member states?

fash

ArchXStanton wrote: »

You really think the plebs will get a vote on a federal Europe? And even if some of them do they'll have to vote again or just get outright ignored, they seem to be in a mad dash to federalise or drive the "project" in such a direction were countries will have no choice since Brexit, it's a dirty organisation

Oh no- being asked to voting a 2nd time (& not even by the EU)! That's so oppressive!
Are you saying that the powers that be don't understand that no means no in relation to divorce or abortion or Sinn Fein getting into government?

facehugger99

If this money comes with conditions, especially anything that requires 'harmonization' of corporate tax, we should certainly tell the EU to get fcuked.

My biggest worry is that we'll have a weak government, snowed under by financial pressures, who'll be inclined to take the cash even if we end up getting completely fcuked over for it.

suicide_circus

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

.But the issue with that (as I said above) is that there is no overriding EU identity.

There is no overriding EU Identity and yet we are committed to ever increasing integration via the Maastricht Treaty. Different languages, different interests, different cultures...different identities.

joseywhales

There is a debt market out there, why do we need these schemes to borrow or redistribute money? Let the market decide , if the respective countries are good long term investments, they'll be queueing up to buy their bonds. Why create this politically contentious allocation scheme. Simply looks like a way to create power from nothing, like a dad cutting cake for his children.

Varik

Anyone find a full list of the amounts per country.

Greek economy isn't the best but with a population just over twice ours they've managed to only have 5% the deaths per capita and are getting 10 times the amount.

ArchXStanton

fash wrote: »

Oh no- being asked to voting a 2nd time (& not even by the EU)! That's so oppressive!
Are you saying that the powers that be don't understand that no means no in relation to divorce or abortion or Sinn Fein getting into government?

It only seems to work one way though, when the EU doesn't get the desired result, it's laughable that it claims to be some gold standard in democracy, in the EU a no vote is only ever temporary and a yes vote is forever..

Fred Cryton

Harpon wrote: »

This is outrageous and yet FG have come out in support of it. On a per capita basis we should be getting about 7 billion.

This is simply a transfer of wealth from Irish taxpayers to those benefiting the most- German/French/Italian taxpayers. They claim these countries are getting more proportionally because they have been ‘harder hit.’ Very hard to believe these countries will be any worse off than Ireland. And funny how the Germans never thought of doing that when Ireland was amongst the hardest hit during the financial crises.

Oh and that’s not all. As if that wasn’t bad enough, the plan requires tax reforms, and the introduction of digital taxes, which will be the end of Ireland’s status as a tax haven, our economy is going to get decimated from this.

Actually we'll probably get zero, because it is voluntary to avail of the funds and it's likely we won't do so.



Better for Ireland to finance itself on the international markets and get its budget balanced in short order, rather than take money from a bailout fund with various strings attached.


It would be interesting to know how they calculate which countries are "hardest hit". If we're talking about a peak to trough hit to GDP, this is skewed against Ireland as our GDP is inflated by multinationals. These sorts of details need to be worked out.

fly_agaric

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I think we are better off getting out before this. I see trouble ahead on the continent if this path continues. There will be trouble in Ireland. I don't think we should be a part of that.

We get to the nub with your post here.

You pretty much want Ireland to leave the EU (get off the "path" now before it is "too late").

Do you think that will cause us any problems or will it be a great move?

Do you think it will be a boon for Ireland's wealth, Ireland's political stability, even Ireland's sovereignty?

If there is, as you darkly suggest "trouble ahead on the continent if this path continues" how exactly do you think we will stay clear of it by leaving the EU now?

On the "rescue" ideas (keeping the scare quotes) I assume there will be no onus on us to accept assistance if we do not want it (even if it is less likely we could shirk helping to pay for it).

It's funny/tragic - if there were no EU level moves/discussion going on about economic aid in the advent of the virus we'd be hearing from your ilk about how the EU is failing to protect its members, has left Italy/Spain/Greece in the lurch as usual/is an utterly useless organisation etc etc.

fly_agaric

Varik wrote: »

Anyone find a full list of the amounts per country.

Greek economy isn't the best but with a population just over twice ours they've managed to only have 5% the deaths per capita and are getting 10 times the amount.

Just on Greece, although they coped well so far, I think they have a massive reliance on tourism [will be stuffed for a while post-Covid].
Their economy is still very weak from previous crisis + they have huge amounts of public debt.

Fann Linn

And there will be nothing said and it will be accepted meekly as we like to show we're the best little boys in the EU.

4068ac1elhodqr

Once the uk offically leaves (1st Jan 2021) and from then onwards there will have to be increases in contributions to pay into the EU's new defecit.

Further down the line there's 6 more countries looking to join (West Balkans Six), they on average have about 1/2 the GDP-PP compared to Germany.
Factor this in future budgets. Expansion will likely increase as time goes on (Barcelona Agreement) with further partnerships across N.Africa and the Cold Front.
Turkey is keen to join, however they haven't been ideal buddies of late, having threatend to dump their 3m unwanted economic migrants into Greece.
Beyond that (Turkey) 2040+, and Ukraine wouldn't be out of the question.

mariaalice

mariaalice wrote: »

Overall I do think the EU is good for Europe and Ireland.

Its a bit like the mafia though, come to us and we will mind you look after you, but you have to obey and you can never leave.

The UK did.

Varik

Don't mind Ireland having it's contributions increased, those rising means we're doing well ( or at least we're arguably doing well) and they could fall as well as rise. Acquiescing on these tax changes is just a negative, there's no benefit and it's all downhill.

Deleted User wrote: »

The UK did.

The UK thought it'd be a firm no to brexit and they could tell their detractors at home to shut it. If the government at the time thought it would be yes they'd never have had the vote.

mariaalice

mariaalice wrote: »

Overall I do think the EU is good for Europe and Ireland.

Its a bit like the mafia though, come to us and we will mind you look after you, but you have to obey and you can never leave.

The UK did.

Harpon

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Actually we'll probably get zero, because it is voluntary to avail of the funds and it's likely we won't do so.



Better for Ireland to finance itself on the international markets and get its budget balanced in short order, rather than take money from a bailout fund with various strings attached.


It would be interesting to know how they calculate which countries are "hardest hit". If we're talking about a peak to trough hit to GDP, this is skewed against Ireland as our GDP is inflated by multinationals. These sorts of details need to be worked out.

250bn of the package is loans, the rest is grants, we would be made not to get as much of the grants as we could

Sweet.Science

Time to leave the EU

JimmyVik

You dont have to take the package.
You can get your middle income workers to sweat blood for it instead.

greenfield21

Don is going to come for our tax incentives anyway, the Germans will never let autos be hit to get the long awaited trade deal through. I think we may aswell take the 2b now.

Kermit.de.frog

I remember I was showing sympathy with the Germans when they were told to bail out everyone in 2010. Almost everyone here was saying "they should give more".

Not so nice when we are in the same situation. Net contributors and getting screwed.

1.9bn out of 750bn.

It's enough to make you agree with Nigel Farage! Hungary, a far smaller economy than ours (and a quasi dictatorship), gets 9bn!

BluePlanet

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I remember I was showing sympathy with the Germans when they were told to bail out everyone in 2010. Almost everyone here was saying "they should give more".

Not so nice when we are in the same situation. Net contributors and getting screwed.

1.9bn out of 750bn.

It's enough to make you agree with Nigel Farage! Hungary, a far smaller economy than ours (and a quasi dictatorship), gets 9bn!

Yeah because we operate as a tax haven depriving our allies of revenue and THEN we refuse to take Apple's tax windfall.
It's little wonder we aren't getting a better handout