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The 350 a week was a catastrophic and costly mistake

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    #62
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,850 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Fred Cryton wrote: »
    Is that like the way the USC was supposed to be a temporary tax?


    The usual suspects will try to make 350 the new baseline for welfare payments.

    They wont succeed though Fred. The country simply cannot afford that long term firstly and secondly paying people more to ‘look’ for a job then people in some cases who have a job , is only going to act as a disincentive to seek employment.


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    #63
    LuasSimon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭LuasSimon


    If someone is getting the 350 a week , how could there be much tax on it bar 0.5% USC .
    350 a week is still only 18,200 over 52 weeks ??


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    #64
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Fred Cryton wrote: »
    Is that like the way the USC was supposed to be a temporary tax?


    The usual suspects will try to make 350 the new baseline for welfare payments.

    The USC was set up to take money off people the exact reverse of this 'temporary' payment.
    Also as an economic masters holder surely you recognise the value of the USC?


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    #65
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    LuasSimon wrote: »
    If someone is getting the 350 a week , how could there be much tax on it bar 0.5% USC .
    350 a week is still only 18,200 over 52 weeks ??


    added too whatever they earned uptill the Covid payment and what they will earn after the Covid payment of course


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    #66
    Still waters
    Registered Users Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭Still waters


    Fred hasn't a fcukin clue what he's talking about


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    #67
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I hope when everything settles down all the government responses can be compared.

    US went with a welfare for big business type solution which resulted in millions losing their jobs and without jobs they lose their healthcare and the need to eat and maintain healthcare would have driven a lot of people to work even when they felt unwell.
    Other countries went for more business support.
    Germany for instance gave somewhere between 7 and 10k support to small businesses with no questions asked and there are reports of a lot of attempted fraud going on to collect this money.
    Ireland went for something akin to a Universal income.
    Trickle down economics would suggest that the individual would get something from State support to Industry but the individual might be dead by the time it trickles down.

    There is nothing to compare to. last comparable pandemic was 102 years ago in a completely different world which hadn't departed the Gold standard.

    It is very hard to criticise Government for having tried this approach. It is eminently fair in its approach. The State Aid elsewhere has the potential to be abused and to drive competitors out of business. The worst that can happen here is that poorer people will spend it and it circulates in the economy.


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    #68
    BorneTobyWilde
    Registered Users Posts: 35,731 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    They trouble with the payment is there was 1000's of people who were part time, doing a few hours in a cafe so on at the weekend, students, so on. 50 euro earned. Now they get 350 a week, and have nothing to do with it. They are all back home living with parents.


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    #69
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    BorneTobyWilde wrote: »
    They trouble with the payment is there was 1000's of people who were part time, doing a few hours in a cafe so on at the weekend, students, so on. 50 euro earned. Now they get 350 a week, and have nothing to do with it. They are all back home living with parents.

    hopefully they will spend it when things reopen


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    #70
    BoroMan32
    Registered Users Posts: 616 ✭✭✭BoroMan32


    LuasSimon wrote: »
    If someone is getting the 350 a week , how could there be much tax on it bar 0.5% USC .
    350 a week is still only 18,200 over 52 weeks ??

    Yes, but say you have a married couple who are jointly assessed where one was in self employment and is now claiming the Covid19 payment whereas the other spouse is still in employment and using up the full married tax band for the lower rate.

    The self employed spouse is going to be liable at the top rate of tax for anything he earns (or the total covid payment in this case & whatever income pre/post covid for the year).

    It's something people certainly need to be aware of; especially in cases where the self employed spouse may have had a relatively low self employed income pre-covid19.


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    #71
    rossie1977
    Registered Users Posts: 11,342 ✭✭✭✭rossie1977


    1/4 of the Irish workforce were earning less than 18k a year?


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    #72
    HeidiHeidi
    Registered Users Posts: 28,860 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    rossie1977 wrote: »
    1/4 of the Irish workforce were earning less than 18k a year?

    Funny he hasn't been back to defend that figure, or provide a source for it!


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    #73
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    BoroMan32 wrote: »
    Yes, but say you have a married couple who are jointly assessed where one was in self employment and is now claiming the Covid19 payment whereas the other spouse is still in employment and using up the full married tax band for the lower rate.

    The self employed spouse is going to be liable at the top rate of tax for anything he earns (or the total covid payment in this case & whatever income pre/post covid for the year).

    It's something people certainly need to be aware of; especially in cases where the self employed spouse may have had a relatively low self employed income pre-covid19.

    any self employed person on low income with a joint assessed is acutely aware of the tax issues m every year around Oct a sharp reminder is administered


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    #74
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,108 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    rossie1977 wrote: »
    1/4 of the Irish workforce were earning less than 18k a year?

    Earnings distribution, 2018

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/distribution/


    It looks to me like the lowest quarter earned less than 367 pw?

    About 19,150 pa.

    These are mostly teenagers / students / part-timers, etc.


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    #75
    padser
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭padser


    Geuze wrote: »
    Earnings distribution, 2018

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/distribution/


    It looks to me like the lowest quarter earned less than 367 pw?

    About 19,150 pa.

    These are mostly teenagers / students / part-timers, etc.

    Yeah I make it 383k from 2.26m earning less than 20k (figures from 2017)

    Thats about 17% of all PAYE earners.

    It's not hard to imagine that lower paid workers are disproportionately getting the 350e.

    Also the 350e is net so 20k not a bad proxy.

    I dont find it difficult to believe based on that that 25% of people who are getting 350e are getting more than they would be getting normally. That is shocking and a poor use of our resources.


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    #76
    easypazz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,346 ✭✭✭easypazz


    Fred Cryton wrote: »
    500,000 people are now better off taking the 350


    Fred Cryton wrote: »
    I have a Masters in the subject.

    ROFL.


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    #77
    BarryD2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    Suspect the OP still has full time and reasonably well paid employment?

    I'd go back to the situation before this in a flash if given a chance. But as it is, these restrictions have pulled the rug completely out from under ability to trade..


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    #78
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,330 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    We complained that the with austerity that the government wasn't spending in the economy. now we're complaining that they do.
    Far better people are getting money than handing it over to big business in the hope that they trickle it down. Of course it's unsustainable but if you look at its an attempt to try not fall into a depression post-lockdown then it's a good option. to get back, we need people to spend the money though.


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    #79
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,621 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Fred Cryton wrote: »
    They tie it to the salary earned before the crisis. There is no equivalent of a flat payment of 350.

    350 for people who earn less than that the difference will likely go straight back into the economy. Consider it a stimulus measure.


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    #80
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    We complained that the with austerity that the government wasn't spending in the economy. now we're complaining that they do.
    Far better people are getting money than handing it over to big business in the hope that they trickle it down. Of course it's unsustainable but if you look at its an attempt to try not fall into a depression post-lockdown then it's a good option. to get back, we need people to spend the money though.

    the main issue however is if the ECB will allow this debt to be funded away by central banks or whether it will have to be funded on the commercial market

    The problem then becomes the massive effect of austerity as Gov spending dried up and tax are increased


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    #81
    LuasSimon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭LuasSimon


    If the Covid payment goes on until Christmas will they Covid payment people get a double week Christmas bonus ( ie 700 ) like travellers and others on the dole all their lives get at Christmas ??


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    #82
    Mike3287
    Closed Accounts Posts: 379 ✭✭Mike3287


    Fred Cryton wrote: »
    I have a Masters in the subject, thanks so much. McWilliams is a charaltan and a spoofer, yeah free money into everyones account. Sure why not make everyone a millionaire so, what could possibly go wrong.

    We will pay it back in 500 years, maybe we will extend it out to 1,000 years, who cares

    It's just paper with ink


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    #83
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Mike3287 wrote: »
    We will pay it back in 500 years, maybe we will extend it out to 1,000 years, who cares

    It's just paper with ink

    only if the ECB allows it so , ie its a form of QE. Currently the germans have the ECB is a bit of a bind .

    where it to be commercially financed on top of the bank bailout , irelands interest bill would be very very difficult indeed and lead to inevitable contraction of Gov spending and increases in taxes etc


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    #84
    This is it
    Registered Users Posts: 5,230 ✭✭✭This is it


    Fred is gone very quiet.


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    #85
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    This is it wrote: »
    Fred is gone very quiet.

    It was a costly mistake on his part bragging about the "Masters".


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    #86
    Rodin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    Will be fun when the govt. looks to get the tax back on the 350


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    #87
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,296 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    I think the 350 for part timers not earning that much was a mistake but it was a decision that had to be made quickly to help the shut down go smoothly. It was probably too blunt an instrument but it probably helped the setup to keep it relatively simple.


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    #88
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,108 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    BoatMad wrote: »
    the main issue however is if the ECB will allow this debt to be funded away by central banks or whether it will have to be funded on the commercial market

    The problem then becomes the massive effect of austerity as Gov spending dried up and tax are increased

    Govt debt is issued onto commercial financial markets.

    We borrowed 6bn over 7 years in April, at a rate of 0.242%.

    https://www.ntma.ie/news/ntma-raises-6-billion-from-sale-of-new-7-year-benchmark-bond


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    #89
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,108 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    BoatMad wrote: »
    only if the ECB allows it so , ie its a form of QE. Currently the germans have the ECB is a bit of a bind .

    where it to be commercially financed on top of the bank bailout , irelands interest bill would be very very difficult indeed and lead to inevitable contraction of Gov spending and increases in taxes etc

    It is being commercially financed.

    The public debt is rising.

    The interest bill may not rise much, as new debt is very cheap, and older debt is being slowly re-financed at lower rates.


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    #90
    jrosen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭jrosen


    I can see the need to roll out a universal amount. It was about speed.
    But I do think it would have made more sense to even have 2 payment options, one for PT workers and one for FT workers.


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    #91
    KaiserGunner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,475 ✭✭✭KaiserGunner


    Rodin wrote: »
    Will be fun when the govt. looks to get the tax back on the 350

    What do you mean by this? How will it be fun?


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