BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

Stephen15 · 01-06-2017 1:19am

RayM wrote: »

Something like this, maybe...

It'll be a shame if the yellow completely disappears from the buses. In addition to being useful for people with visual impairments, it's become part of Dublin's urban landscape.

Not mad on the yellow personally it gives the double deckers a very dominant look. The best DB livery IMO was the cream and navy livery from the late 90s it looked somewhat classy. The green gives the buses a bit of miltary look. I reckon a white and blue livery would look well or navy and sky blue.

Tardis · 01-06-2017 1:31am

If every bus stop is being updated, build an nfc chip into the stops and tag on/off at the actual stop. As you would with the tag machines for the luas. Some bus shelters already have nfc built in for advertisements

Victor · 01-06-2017 4:59am

Tardis wrote: »

If every bus stop is being updated, build an nfc chip into the stops and tag on/off at the actual stop. As you would with the tag machines for the luas. Some bus shelters already have nfc built in for advertisements

All well and good with a mobile phone, but if you have just two NFC chips (Leap Card and pole), where do they get their power from?

punisher5112 · 01-06-2017 7:12am

Just so there is no confusion db is far and I mean to the moon and back far on how they approach fare evasion.

They have a team of 4 yes just 4 inspectors to do the checks. Then they brought in the new system of getting drivers to tag along which is meant to be 80 but that is only a pool so 10 or less would be out at any one time.

They don't go to certain areas and aren't out at night or very early and with 1000 vehicles and rising that's beyond ridiculous.

There hasn't been any proper checks in a few months now also

cython · 01-06-2017 8:52am

Victor wrote: »

All well and good with a mobile phone, but if you have just two NFC chips (Leap Card and pole), where do they get their power from?

Or indeed (assuming that this would be charged like Irish Rail/Luas) which of them does the calculation of what to refund onto the card from the presumably already deducted maximum fare? Or when fares change, does someone have to go around and manually update/replace the NFC at each bus stop? A simply chip would never work, it has to be fully fledged validator, and as people have already noted, this would be prohibitive to implement, and a nightmare to maintain as well (vandalism, etc.) - just look at the average lifespan of a validator in Broombridge!

A danger with these technologies is unfortunately that people throw the terms about without actually fully understanding what they comprise.

Cookie_Monster · 01-06-2017 9:10am

I don't suppose this overall review is going to address issues like why middle doors are not used or anything practical like that?
Because removing that ridiculous legal threat to drivers and actually having them use the doors at every stop would make an enormous difference.

dazberry · 01-06-2017 9:28am

The only issue is with tagging off would be at certain high usage stops - which are most likely in the city centre and most likely have or share an RTPI display. You could differentiate those stops as being tag off offboard stops, and install validators on or adjacent to the RTPI displays. Every other stop outside these would require an on-board tag off.

The downside is that you effectively have an exception to a system, so it works in two different ways - but if the stops were limited to specific city center only stops (and perhaps prompted by automated on board announcements) people would probably get it quick enough.

bk · 01-06-2017 10:14am

Unfortunately I don't think that would work. You would just have people tagging off on the bus anyway, in case the off bus validate wasn't there or wasn't working.

Having said that I think on bus tag-off would be better then the current driver interaction model anyway.

Dravokivich · 01-06-2017 11:59am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I don't suppose this overall review is going to address issues like why middle doors are not used or anything practical like that?
Because removing that ridiculous legal threat to drivers and actually having them use the doors at every stop would make an enormous difference.

What routes don't use them and where?

Any time I'm on a bus serving between Clondalkin / Leixlip / Fairview and the city, I'm always seeing the middle doors being used.

Is it a matter now of someone seeing it not being used at a few stops and thinking that's always the case? There's audio announcements now on the buses telling people to use the middle doors to exit.

VG31 · 01-06-2017 1:13pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

What routes don't use them and where?

Any time I'm on a bus serving between Clondalkin / Leixlip / Fairview and the city, I'm always seeing the middle doors being used.

Is it a matter now of someone seeing it not being used at a few stops and thinking that's always the case? There's audio announcements now on the buses telling people to use the middle doors to exit.

On the routes I get they are used infrequently (4, 9, 40, 83, 140). If the bus is full they are normally used, but otherwise it's hit and miss. I see the same happening on other routes in the city centre.

I occasionally get the 46A or 145 and they seem to be used a lot more on those routes.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I don't suppose this overall review is going to address issues like why middle doors are not used or anything practical like that?
Because removing that ridiculous legal threat to drivers and actually having them use the doors at every stop would make an enormous difference.

I didn't see it mentioned anywhere unfortunately. They must know that it's an issue though.

bk · 01-06-2017 1:57pm

My understanding is that there is no specific legal threat against drivers using the middle door!

I believe this came up a few years ago when the unions crated a mountain out of a molehill, looking for DB to indemnify drivers against legal action.

It was pointed out to them that no such indemnification can be given, as under the Irish legal system, any one can personally sue anyone for anything, at any time and that is just the way our legal system works.

That isn't to say that a court wouldn't laugh such a claim out of the court straight away, but the option is always available.

And in fact it is just as true for using the front door or even just driving the bus in general (you broke too hard and I smacked my face off a bar). So if they are truly worried about being sued, they should quiet their job right now as they have no protection in general from being sued for any reason.

Somehow this idea that there is some specific legal issue over rear door use has entered DB mythology and now many drivers seem to think they are just going to suddenly get sued if they use the rear door!

The reality is DB operated dual door buses for years until the 90's without any driver ever getting sued for it and rear door operation happens all over Europe, including London and UK which has the same legal system as us!

thomasj · 01-06-2017 2:01pm

bk wrote:

The reality is DB operated dual door buses for years until the 90's without any driver ever getting sued for it and rear door operation happens all over Europe, including London and UK which has the same legal system as us!

But sure at that stage those buses had conductors on them. When buses became OPO drivers then only ever used the centre doors at the last stop.

bk · 01-06-2017 2:33pm

thomasj wrote: »

But sure at that stage those buses had conductors on them. When buses became OPO drivers then only ever used the centre doors at the last stop.

As if the conductors made a difference. Legally a conductor on board doesn't protect you (or the conductor) any more from being sued.

The reality was, when the conductors were removed, the unions were pissed and refused to do what they felt was extra work and created this "legal" issue.

Stephen15 · 01-06-2017 4:14pm

thomasj wrote: »

But sure at that stage those buses had conductors on them. When buses became OPO drivers then only ever used the centre doors at the last stop.

The RVs which were only withdrawn in 2012 and not in the mid 90s as the OP referred to. Operated long after the conductors were removed I thought conductors went out with the routemasters altough I believe a very small number survived until the 00's.

Boulevardier · 01-06-2017 4:25pm

Conductors worked for years on the Atlanteans. My 45 always had one in the mid-70s.

I think the 1st OPO double-decker was on route 44 in the early 1980s.

punisher5112 · 01-06-2017 4:26pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

The RVs which were only withdrawn in 2012 and not in the mid 90s as the OP referred to. Operated long after the conductors were removed I thought conductors went out with the routemasters altough I believe a very small number survived until the 00's.

In Dublin conductors were gone around 93 or 94 and at that there were only a few.

L1011 · 01-06-2017 5:00pm

67 was dual operated very late, later than 94 I think

_Kaiser_ · 01-06-2017 5:04pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Not mad on the yellow personally it gives the double deckers a very dominant look. The best DB livery IMO was the cream and navy livery from the late 90s it looked somewhat classy. The green gives the buses a bit of miltary look. I reckon a white and blue livery would look well or navy and sky blue.

The green just looks massively outdated at this stage. Wouldn't like to see it back TBH

You're talking about this...

Muy favourite was always this one.. it's also "generic" enough (note the much smaller DB logo - not even present on the front of the bus, whereas the CitySwift branding is far more prominent) to be non-offensive to other cities I'd think

Stephen15 · 01-06-2017 5:12pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

In Dublin conductors were gone around 93 or 94 and at that there were only a few.

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/226295/1/#post2379782 Thread from mid 00's

john boye · 01-06-2017 5:42pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

The green just looks massively outdated at this stage. Wouldn't like to see it back TBH

You're talking about this...

Muy favourite was always this one.. it's also "generic" enough (note the much smaller DB logo - not even present on the front of the bus, whereas the CitySwift branding is far more prominent) to be non-offensive to other cities I'd think

Always thought the cityswift didn't work on double-deckers at all, especially on the rear which looked like a bad acid trip.

RayM · 01-06-2017 7:03pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

The green just looks massively outdated at this stage. Wouldn't like to see it back TBH

Here's a slightly more modern interpretation...

Stephen15 · 01-06-2017 7:07pm

RayM wrote: »

Here's a slightly more modern interpretation...

Will there not be proper Dublin Bus logos on the new livery.

Victor · 01-06-2017 7:20pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Will there not be proper Dublin Bus logos on the new livery.

No. It is an NTA service.

Airlink, not being an NTA service would carry DB logos.

_Kaiser_ · 01-06-2017 7:33pm

RayM wrote: »

Here's a slightly more modern interpretation..

That does look much better alright but I'm not a fan of the green generally.. just seems a bit stereotypical/tacky. Think it might conflict with one of the Tour liveries as well?

_Kaiser_ · 01-06-2017 7:41pm

john boye wrote: »

Always thought the cityswift didn't work on double-deckers at all, especially on the rear which looked like a bad acid trip.

I agree the back could have been better...

AV32%20new%21.jpg

... but otherwise I thought it was a very clean livery myself

Stephen15 · 01-06-2017 8:14pm

Victor wrote: »

No. It is an NTA service.

Airlink, not being an NTA service would carry DB logos.

Yes but will it not be a similar story to the way London buses have their various different operators logo's.

monument · 01-06-2017 9:35pm

Threads merged and original opening post edited with details from bk's post.

-- moderator

monument · 01-06-2017 9:41pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Maybe they don't run cross-city routes? Take for example the 46A... Picks up at the outer limits and empties as it gets closer to the city centre.

I've only used buses extensively in the US and the UK and only came across tagging off in one city in the US. It was purely for statistics collection as it made no difference to the (flat) fare whether you tagged off or not.

I'm open to correction but I think it happens across the Netherlands and urban buses do run across cities there and from town to city etc and are busy at certain stops there (ie large amounts of people getting off at central stops). The readers need to be fast enough but it can work.

murphaph · 01-06-2017 9:48pm

I think the most important statement in the document is that there will be changes to fares to allow changing vehicle and even mode without financial penalty.

punisher5112 · 01-06-2017 11:34pm

murphaph wrote: »

I think the most important statement in the document is that there will be changes to fares to allow changing vehicle and even mode without financial penalty.

That is there with travel 90 style 1 euro discount but obviously a good thing to come.

Cut out so many different fares and if social welfare pass doesn't scan then pay simple as.

Dyr · 02-06-2017 12:25am

RayM wrote: »

Here's a slightly more modern interpretation...

That's absolutely dreadful, Every livery dublin bus used is awful too. That city swift one was offensive on every level

The current one is the best of them. but there's so many buses clogging up the city that everyone is probably sick of the sight of bright yellow

The old CIE cream and navy was probably the most aesthetically pleasing combination

Stephen15 · 02-06-2017 1:11am

One thing I would do is straighten out the route numbering system. I would remove all alpa suffixes as they are rather confusing and most of them should marked as separate to the route theyre suffixed with example 17 and 17a. I would have routes divided up into their various different route and have them numbered in order of what type route they are. Going as follows.

1-9 BRT routes
10-99 Routes serving the cc
100-199 Orbital routes
200-299 Local routes

BonnieSituation · 02-06-2017 1:13am

I really like the current livery. Be a shame to lose it. Especially seeing as it manages to incorporate the Dublin colours/flag onto the back.

Cookie_Monster · 02-06-2017 1:17am

Stephen15 wrote: »

One thing I would do is straighten out the route numbering system. I would remove all alpa suffixes as they are rather confusing and most of them should marked as separate to the route theyre suffixed with example 17 and 17a. I would have routes divided up into their various different route and have them numbered in order of what type route they are. Going as follows.

1-9 BRT routes
10-99 Routes serving the cc
100-199 Orbital routes
200-299 Local routes

This needs to happen! Wasn't the last Network Direct supposed to address this as a later stage of the project, never did in the end. Numbers certainly need rationalising and some thought into the grouping of them like the above or geographically: 100-109 in the Dun Laoghaire direction, the 110-119 to Sandyford area and so on around the clockface to allow some allowance that similar numbers will serve broadly similar areas of the suburbs.

I'd be massively in favour of restoring the two tone green and orange stripe too, by a country mile the best of the liveries and the green is less offensive to the eye than the whites or yellows of later liveries.

BonnieSituation · 02-06-2017 1:18am

Stephen15 wrote: »

One thing I would do is straighten out the route numbering system. I would remove all alpa suffixes as they are rather confusing and most of them should marked as separate to the route theyre suffixed with example 17 and 17a. I would have routes divided up into their various different route and have them numbered in order of what type route they are. Going as follows.

1-9 BRT routes
10-99 Routes serving the cc
100-199 Orbital routes
200-299 Local routes

Decent idea. But you straightaway limiting yourself to 9 BRT routes. Imagine there was a tenth or a 11th in the future then we're moving out of scheme and into a different block or going alphanumeric.

---

It would be an idea to number the BRT routes... then have the orbital routes numbered in relation to them and likewise the local routes named for them, top of the head stuff...

Say there's an orbital route that crosses BRT route 1, 2 and 3 then the orbital route can be 123 etc...

Another idea would be to "sectorize" the city and number stuff from there. If that makes sense. I'm tired and will try again in the morning when I get to my desk and open up ArcMAP.

dfx- · 02-06-2017 4:23am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I don't suppose this overall review is going to address issues like why middle doors are not used or anything practical like that?
Because removing that ridiculous legal threat to drivers and actually having them use the doors at every stop would make an enormous difference.

As I was getting on board a 13C this evening after the previous departure was also a 13C (a regular occurrence though both are supposed to be 13s) with the next 13 in 30 minutes and usually the same most evenings, I thought...I'm glad the important things are being sorted out by "BusConnects".

LeinsterDub · 02-06-2017 8:15am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

100-109 in the Dun Laoghaire direction, the 110-119 to Sandyford area and so on around the clockface to allow some allowance that similar numbers will serve broadly similar areas of the suburbs.

How would that work for the bus out of Dun Laoghaire ? It would be the 101 in to Dun Laoghaire but the 202 to whitehall out?

LXFlyer · 02-06-2017 9:15am

dfx- wrote: »

As I was getting on board a 13C this evening after the previous departure was also a 13C (a regular occurrence though both are supposed to be 13s) with the next 13 in 30 minutes and usually the same most evenings, I thought...I'm glad the important things are being sorted out by "BusConnects".

Probably either a staffing issue (no driver to take over in the city centre) or running time issue (bus is running late due to traffic).

If the latter - it needs new rosters (as has been introduced on the 1 and 75) to deal with it.

cython · 02-06-2017 9:21am

punisher5112 wrote: »

That is there with travel 90 style 1 euro discount but obviously a good thing to come.

Cut out so many different fares and if social welfare pass doesn't scan then pay simple as.

It's there in part, but not completely. For example when Luas BXD opens, even with the €1 discount, if I were to take a train from Coolmine to Tara Street, I can see it being cheaper than changing to Luas at Broombridge and getting off at O'Connell Street or Marlborough Street under the current fare system, despite being equivalent journeys.

Victor · 02-06-2017 9:39am

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Decent idea. But you straightaway limiting yourself to 9 BRT routes.

Not quite - it would be 9 northside and 9 southside - that's a lot of BRT.

The suggestion was to go Belfast style, but realising that letters can make things more difficult. http://www.translink.co.uk/Documents/Services/metro/metro_schematic.pdf

cython wrote: »

It's there in part, but not completely. For example when Luas BXD opens, even with the €1 discount, if I were to take a train from Coolmine to Tara Street, I can see it being cheaper than changing to Luas at Broombridge and getting off at O'Connell Street or Marlborough Street under the current fare system, despite being equivalent journeys.

Based on the current system:

Coolmine-Tara Street is €3.25.

Coolmine-Broombridge is €2.20
Broombridge-Marlborough might be €2.40.
Less the €1 discount.
Combined fares €3.60.

So not cheaper, but at the same time the fares are similar.

LXFlyer · 02-06-2017 9:47am

cython wrote: »

It's there in part, but not completely. For example when Luas BXD opens, even with the ?1 discount, if I were to take a train from Coolmine to Tara Street, I can see it being cheaper than changing to Luas at Broombridge and getting off at O'Connell Street or Marlborough Street under the current fare system, despite being equivalent journeys.

Quite correct - Broombridge to the stops in the city centre is likely to be 2 Luas fare zones which will make some journeys more expensive for pay-as-you-go rail commuters who change rather than staying on the train (even allowing for the EUR1 discount).

If the bus network redesign involves more people changing buses, then the fare penalty for changing needs to be removed.

dazberry · 02-06-2017 10:03am

lxflyer wrote: »

Quite correct - Broombridge to the stops in the city centre is likely to be 2 Luas fare zones which will make some journeys more expensive for pay-as-you-go rail commuters who change rather than staying on the train (even allowing for the ?1 discount).

This should also be reflected in leap card fare capping as there is a penalty for multi-mode capping that ideally shouldn't exist.

LXFlyer · 02-06-2017 10:38am

dazberry wrote: »

This should also be reflected in leap card fare capping as there is a penalty for multi-mode capping that ideally shouldn't exist.

Most people commuting on the Maynooth line using pay-as-you-go would not even come close to hitting the Irish Rail weekly cap, let alone the multi-mode cap.

murphaph · 02-06-2017 11:38am

punisher5112 wrote: »

That is there with travel 90 style 1 euro discount

To be honest this is nowhere near "integrated ticketing". If I want to go from my house to say Wannsee (in Berlin) I buy a single ticket that I can use to go Regional Train -> Bus -> Ferry. There is no discount, you simply pay for your journey to be completed in 2 hours or less. If I can make the journey with no changes, that's a plus, but it is no cheaper than if it takes 4 modes. I often use 3 modes on my way home from work (tram, S-Bahn, Regional train). That's what I understood is coming under BusConnects and it is hugely different to offering a discount on second and third legs of the same journey.

Real integrated ticketing and fares are actually the precursors to a network because a network that penalises changes is never going to attract people to the concept of changing, regardless how good the infrastructure, vehicles and timetables are.

As for numbering, it's easy really.
Just put an "M" (for Metrobus/Metrotram) prefix in front of the BRT/high frequency routes to denote services with 10 minute or less frequency. All other trams and buses just have a plain number with no prefix. People automatically know that those routes will typically have a 20 minute frequency at best. A service can thus be "upgraded" to "metrobus" simply by adding an "M" prefix. I would not reserve low numbers for more important routes etc. Too inflexible.

n97 mini · 02-06-2017 11:50am

Discussing the Broombridge Luas with a fellow train user yesterday. Given the example above (Marlborough St):
Going into CC: not only is it going to more expensive to change to Luas, it will be slower than just staying on the train.
Leaving CC: All of the above, plus if you get the Luas to Broombridge and mistime your connection or get held up you potentially face a 1 hour wait till the next train, stuck in Broombridge! Nightmare scenario.

So we concluded that it would make sense only to change at Broombridge if you were going to somewhere like Dominick, *but* that when it came to going home it would be safer to get the Luas to the city centre and get a train from there, rather than risk being stuck in Broombridge for an hour.

bk · 02-06-2017 12:22pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

1-9 BRT routes
10-99 Routes serving the cc
100-199 Orbital routes
200-299 Local routes

The 2xx range is used for buses in Cork. I believe that the NTA are now operating a consistent route numbering system through the whole country now.

It was only two years ago or so that they shifted the bus numbers in Cork from example 5 to 205, 8 to 208, etc.

Obviously 1 to 199 is supposed to be Dublin.

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I really like the current livery. Be a shame to lose it. Especially seeing as it manages to incorporate the Dublin colours/flag onto the back.

Which is another reason you couldn't really use if for a livery that is supposed to go on buses all over the country including Cork, Galway, etc.

punisher5112 · 02-06-2017 12:26pm

murphaph wrote: »

To be honest this is nowhere near "integrated ticketing". If I want to go from my house to say Wannsee (in Berlin) I buy a single ticket that I can use to go Regional Train -> Bus -> Ferry. There is no discount, you simply pay for your journey to be completed in 2 hours or less. If I can make the journey with no changes, that's a plus, but it is no cheaper than if it takes 4 modes. I often use 3 modes on my way home from work (tram, S-Bahn, Regional train). That's what I understood is coming under BusConnects and it is hugely different to offering a discount on second and third legs of the same journey.

Real integrated ticketing and fares are actually the precursors to a network because a network that penalises changes is never going to attract people to the concept of changing, regardless how good the infrastructure, vehicles and timetables are.

As for numbering, it's easy really.
Just put an "M" (for Metrobus/Metrotram) prefix in front of the BRT/high frequency routes to denote services with 10 minute or less frequency. All other trams and buses just have a plain number with no prefix. People automatically know that those routes will typically have a 20 minute frequency at best. A service can thus be "upgraded" to "metrobus" simply by adding an "M" prefix. I would not reserve low numbers for more important routes etc. Too inflexible.

You don't understand what I was saying.

The old system db had was you travel on as many db services as you wished in the 90 minutes and also worked on xpresso services which made it very cheap at the time.

Obviously it was only db but it was better then the nta leap €1 off.

But that alas is changing so no need to be worrying about it with all the new changes coming.

devnull · 02-06-2017 12:34pm

The Leap 90 product is much better than Travel 90 in my opinion and a far larger number of customers are availing of it compared to the Travel 90, because the Travel 90 required you to constantly keep buying new tickets whereas the Leap 90 product is built in to the leap card and at least with my fellow colleagues over the past few years, far more of them use a mix of transport modes than two buses.

Stephen15 · 02-06-2017 12:42pm

bk wrote: »

The 2xx range is used for buses in Cork. I believe that the NTA are now operating a consistent route numbering system through the whole country now.

It was only two years ago or so that they shifted the bus numbers in Cork from example 5 to 205, 8 to 208, etc.

Obviously 1 to 199 is supposed to be Dublin.

Which is another reason you couldn't really use if for a livery that is supposed to go on buses all over the country including Cork, Galway, etc.

Yes but there are 2xx routes in Dublin such as the 220 or the 270.

What I would do is have urban routes Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway, Waterford and the BE town routes all using the one colour lets say have them use green like an OP suggested and regional BE routes use red. I noticed this in Italy where it is usually the case that urban buses are orange or have a bit of it on the front of their livery and regional buses are blue.

LXFlyer · 02-06-2017 12:49pm

bk wrote: »

The 2xx range is used for buses in Cork. I believe that the NTA are now operating a consistent route numbering system through the whole country now.

It was only two years ago or so that they shifted the bus numbers in Cork from example 5 to 205, 8 to 208, etc.

Obviously 1 to 199 is supposed to be Dublin.

Which is another reason you couldn't really use if for a livery that is supposed to go on buses all over the country including Cork, Galway, etc.

Actually, the NTA are broadly using the original Bus Eireann numbering system but with some exceptions. That numbering system was:

0-99 - Expressway
100-199 - Dublin & Eastern Region (Provincial stage carriage services)
200-299 - Cork & Kerry
300-350 - Limerick & Clare
351-399 - South East
400-499 - West & North West

Dublin City PSO bus routes are entirely separate from this national numbering system.

BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

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