BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

bk · 01-06-2017 1:57pm

My understanding is that there is no specific legal threat against drivers using the middle door!

I believe this came up a few years ago when the unions crated a mountain out of a molehill, looking for DB to indemnify drivers against legal action.

It was pointed out to them that no such indemnification can be given, as under the Irish legal system, any one can personally sue anyone for anything, at any time and that is just the way our legal system works.

That isn't to say that a court wouldn't laugh such a claim out of the court straight away, but the option is always available.

And in fact it is just as true for using the front door or even just driving the bus in general (you broke too hard and I smacked my face off a bar). So if they are truly worried about being sued, they should quiet their job right now as they have no protection in general from being sued for any reason.

Somehow this idea that there is some specific legal issue over rear door use has entered DB mythology and now many drivers seem to think they are just going to suddenly get sued if they use the rear door!

The reality is DB operated dual door buses for years until the 90's without any driver ever getting sued for it and rear door operation happens all over Europe, including London and UK which has the same legal system as us!

thomasj · 01-06-2017 2:01pm

bk wrote:

The reality is DB operated dual door buses for years until the 90's without any driver ever getting sued for it and rear door operation happens all over Europe, including London and UK which has the same legal system as us!

But sure at that stage those buses had conductors on them. When buses became OPO drivers then only ever used the centre doors at the last stop.

bk · 01-06-2017 2:33pm

thomasj wrote: »

But sure at that stage those buses had conductors on them. When buses became OPO drivers then only ever used the centre doors at the last stop.

As if the conductors made a difference. Legally a conductor on board doesn't protect you (or the conductor) any more from being sued.

The reality was, when the conductors were removed, the unions were pissed and refused to do what they felt was extra work and created this "legal" issue.

Stephen15 · 01-06-2017 4:14pm

thomasj wrote: »

But sure at that stage those buses had conductors on them. When buses became OPO drivers then only ever used the centre doors at the last stop.

The RVs which were only withdrawn in 2012 and not in the mid 90s as the OP referred to. Operated long after the conductors were removed I thought conductors went out with the routemasters altough I believe a very small number survived until the 00's.

Boulevardier · 01-06-2017 4:25pm

Conductors worked for years on the Atlanteans. My 45 always had one in the mid-70s.

I think the 1st OPO double-decker was on route 44 in the early 1980s.

punisher5112 · 01-06-2017 4:26pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

The RVs which were only withdrawn in 2012 and not in the mid 90s as the OP referred to. Operated long after the conductors were removed I thought conductors went out with the routemasters altough I believe a very small number survived until the 00's.

In Dublin conductors were gone around 93 or 94 and at that there were only a few.

L1011 · 01-06-2017 5:00pm

67 was dual operated very late, later than 94 I think

_Kaiser_ · 01-06-2017 5:04pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Not mad on the yellow personally it gives the double deckers a very dominant look. The best DB livery IMO was the cream and navy livery from the late 90s it looked somewhat classy. The green gives the buses a bit of miltary look. I reckon a white and blue livery would look well or navy and sky blue.

The green just looks massively outdated at this stage. Wouldn't like to see it back TBH

You're talking about this...

Muy favourite was always this one.. it's also "generic" enough (note the much smaller DB logo - not even present on the front of the bus, whereas the CitySwift branding is far more prominent) to be non-offensive to other cities I'd think

Stephen15 · 01-06-2017 5:12pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

In Dublin conductors were gone around 93 or 94 and at that there were only a few.

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/226295/1/#post2379782 Thread from mid 00's

john boye · 01-06-2017 5:42pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

The green just looks massively outdated at this stage. Wouldn't like to see it back TBH

You're talking about this...

Muy favourite was always this one.. it's also "generic" enough (note the much smaller DB logo - not even present on the front of the bus, whereas the CitySwift branding is far more prominent) to be non-offensive to other cities I'd think

Always thought the cityswift didn't work on double-deckers at all, especially on the rear which looked like a bad acid trip.

RayM · 01-06-2017 7:03pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

The green just looks massively outdated at this stage. Wouldn't like to see it back TBH

Here's a slightly more modern interpretation...

Stephen15 · 01-06-2017 7:07pm

RayM wrote: »

Here's a slightly more modern interpretation...

Will there not be proper Dublin Bus logos on the new livery.

Victor · 01-06-2017 7:20pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Will there not be proper Dublin Bus logos on the new livery.

No. It is an NTA service.

Airlink, not being an NTA service would carry DB logos.

_Kaiser_ · 01-06-2017 7:33pm

RayM wrote: »

Here's a slightly more modern interpretation..

That does look much better alright but I'm not a fan of the green generally.. just seems a bit stereotypical/tacky. Think it might conflict with one of the Tour liveries as well?

_Kaiser_ · 01-06-2017 7:41pm

john boye wrote: »

Always thought the cityswift didn't work on double-deckers at all, especially on the rear which looked like a bad acid trip.

I agree the back could have been better...

AV32%20new%21.jpg

... but otherwise I thought it was a very clean livery myself

Stephen15 · 01-06-2017 8:14pm

Victor wrote: »

No. It is an NTA service.

Airlink, not being an NTA service would carry DB logos.

Yes but will it not be a similar story to the way London buses have their various different operators logo's.

monument · 01-06-2017 9:35pm

Threads merged and original opening post edited with details from bk's post.

-- moderator

monument · 01-06-2017 9:41pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Maybe they don't run cross-city routes? Take for example the 46A... Picks up at the outer limits and empties as it gets closer to the city centre.

I've only used buses extensively in the US and the UK and only came across tagging off in one city in the US. It was purely for statistics collection as it made no difference to the (flat) fare whether you tagged off or not.

I'm open to correction but I think it happens across the Netherlands and urban buses do run across cities there and from town to city etc and are busy at certain stops there (ie large amounts of people getting off at central stops). The readers need to be fast enough but it can work.

murphaph · 01-06-2017 9:48pm

I think the most important statement in the document is that there will be changes to fares to allow changing vehicle and even mode without financial penalty.

punisher5112 · 01-06-2017 11:34pm

murphaph wrote: »

I think the most important statement in the document is that there will be changes to fares to allow changing vehicle and even mode without financial penalty.

That is there with travel 90 style 1 euro discount but obviously a good thing to come.

Cut out so many different fares and if social welfare pass doesn't scan then pay simple as.

Dyr · 02-06-2017 12:25am

RayM wrote: »

Here's a slightly more modern interpretation...

That's absolutely dreadful, Every livery dublin bus used is awful too. That city swift one was offensive on every level

The current one is the best of them. but there's so many buses clogging up the city that everyone is probably sick of the sight of bright yellow

The old CIE cream and navy was probably the most aesthetically pleasing combination

Stephen15 · 02-06-2017 1:11am

One thing I would do is straighten out the route numbering system. I would remove all alpa suffixes as they are rather confusing and most of them should marked as separate to the route theyre suffixed with example 17 and 17a. I would have routes divided up into their various different route and have them numbered in order of what type route they are. Going as follows.

1-9 BRT routes
10-99 Routes serving the cc
100-199 Orbital routes
200-299 Local routes

BonnieSituation · 02-06-2017 1:13am

I really like the current livery. Be a shame to lose it. Especially seeing as it manages to incorporate the Dublin colours/flag onto the back.

Cookie_Monster · 02-06-2017 1:17am

Stephen15 wrote: »

One thing I would do is straighten out the route numbering system. I would remove all alpa suffixes as they are rather confusing and most of them should marked as separate to the route theyre suffixed with example 17 and 17a. I would have routes divided up into their various different route and have them numbered in order of what type route they are. Going as follows.

1-9 BRT routes
10-99 Routes serving the cc
100-199 Orbital routes
200-299 Local routes

This needs to happen! Wasn't the last Network Direct supposed to address this as a later stage of the project, never did in the end. Numbers certainly need rationalising and some thought into the grouping of them like the above or geographically: 100-109 in the Dun Laoghaire direction, the 110-119 to Sandyford area and so on around the clockface to allow some allowance that similar numbers will serve broadly similar areas of the suburbs.

I'd be massively in favour of restoring the two tone green and orange stripe too, by a country mile the best of the liveries and the green is less offensive to the eye than the whites or yellows of later liveries.

BonnieSituation · 02-06-2017 1:18am

Stephen15 wrote: »

One thing I would do is straighten out the route numbering system. I would remove all alpa suffixes as they are rather confusing and most of them should marked as separate to the route theyre suffixed with example 17 and 17a. I would have routes divided up into their various different route and have them numbered in order of what type route they are. Going as follows.

1-9 BRT routes
10-99 Routes serving the cc
100-199 Orbital routes
200-299 Local routes

Decent idea. But you straightaway limiting yourself to 9 BRT routes. Imagine there was a tenth or a 11th in the future then we're moving out of scheme and into a different block or going alphanumeric.

---

It would be an idea to number the BRT routes... then have the orbital routes numbered in relation to them and likewise the local routes named for them, top of the head stuff...

Say there's an orbital route that crosses BRT route 1, 2 and 3 then the orbital route can be 123 etc...

Another idea would be to "sectorize" the city and number stuff from there. If that makes sense. I'm tired and will try again in the morning when I get to my desk and open up ArcMAP.

dfx- · 02-06-2017 4:23am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I don't suppose this overall review is going to address issues like why middle doors are not used or anything practical like that?
Because removing that ridiculous legal threat to drivers and actually having them use the doors at every stop would make an enormous difference.

As I was getting on board a 13C this evening after the previous departure was also a 13C (a regular occurrence though both are supposed to be 13s) with the next 13 in 30 minutes and usually the same most evenings, I thought...I'm glad the important things are being sorted out by "BusConnects".

LeinsterDub · 02-06-2017 8:15am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

100-109 in the Dun Laoghaire direction, the 110-119 to Sandyford area and so on around the clockface to allow some allowance that similar numbers will serve broadly similar areas of the suburbs.

How would that work for the bus out of Dun Laoghaire ? It would be the 101 in to Dun Laoghaire but the 202 to whitehall out?

LXFlyer · 02-06-2017 9:15am

dfx- wrote: »

As I was getting on board a 13C this evening after the previous departure was also a 13C (a regular occurrence though both are supposed to be 13s) with the next 13 in 30 minutes and usually the same most evenings, I thought...I'm glad the important things are being sorted out by "BusConnects".

Probably either a staffing issue (no driver to take over in the city centre) or running time issue (bus is running late due to traffic).

If the latter - it needs new rosters (as has been introduced on the 1 and 75) to deal with it.

cython · 02-06-2017 9:21am

punisher5112 wrote: »

That is there with travel 90 style 1 euro discount but obviously a good thing to come.

Cut out so many different fares and if social welfare pass doesn't scan then pay simple as.

It's there in part, but not completely. For example when Luas BXD opens, even with the €1 discount, if I were to take a train from Coolmine to Tara Street, I can see it being cheaper than changing to Luas at Broombridge and getting off at O'Connell Street or Marlborough Street under the current fare system, despite being equivalent journeys.

Victor · 02-06-2017 9:39am

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Decent idea. But you straightaway limiting yourself to 9 BRT routes.

Not quite - it would be 9 northside and 9 southside - that's a lot of BRT.

The suggestion was to go Belfast style, but realising that letters can make things more difficult. http://www.translink.co.uk/Documents/Services/metro/metro_schematic.pdf

cython wrote: »

It's there in part, but not completely. For example when Luas BXD opens, even with the €1 discount, if I were to take a train from Coolmine to Tara Street, I can see it being cheaper than changing to Luas at Broombridge and getting off at O'Connell Street or Marlborough Street under the current fare system, despite being equivalent journeys.

Based on the current system:

Coolmine-Tara Street is €3.25.

Coolmine-Broombridge is €2.20
Broombridge-Marlborough might be €2.40.
Less the €1 discount.
Combined fares €3.60.

So not cheaper, but at the same time the fares are similar.

BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

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