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Is Atheism in compatible with a belief in the Afterlife?

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    #62
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    hinault wrote: »
    The Bible teaches that only those who know Jesus and adhere to His teachings will be saved in the afterlife.

    And Scientology "teaches" about weird alien civilizations on earth over a period of multiple eons.

    Telling us WHO teaches something or WHAT they teach is white noise. The only thing people on this forum are generally in is what the BASIS for the thing being taught is.

    And if the sum total of your basis is summed up in the cheap, one liner. cop out. dismissal you flung in your last response to me..... then what we are talking about here is "no basis at all" frankly.
    hinault wrote: »
    So you accept that there is an afterlife?
    hinault wrote: »
    What you accept is of no interest to me.

    So you come into a thread asking what people "accept" and then when people TELL you what they "accept" you reply claiming what people accept is of no interest to you.

    I think that, right there, sums up ENTIRELY what we are dealing with here.

    The simple fact is that you have not offered a SHRED of arguments, evidence, data or reasoning that even SUGGESTS in the existence of an after life. And, further, you have failed entirely to address a SHRED of the substantiation linking consciousness to the brain.

    So you are in a minus position, having not supported your own position OR addressed any of the evidence going against it.


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    #63
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,722 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    hinault wrote: »
    You accept this premise is possible?
    hinault wrote: »
    What you accept is of no interest to me

    You do realise that this is a discussion forum and not a pulpit ????


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    #64
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users Posts: 16,115 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    hinault wrote: »
    What you accept is of no interest to me.

    Why do you read posts in this forum? Why do you post?

    P.S. Jesus is quoted as saying "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

    This proves he wasn't god, because god would never send so many of his creations to hell just because they predeceased Jesus. Or lived in geographically distant locations.


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    #65
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    This proves he wasn't god, because god would never send so many of his creations to hell just because they predeceased Jesus. Or lived in geographically distant locations.

    Moses lived long before Jesus.

    Are you contending that Moses is in Hell (assuming that you believe that the afterlife exist)


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    #66
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    hinault wrote: »
    Moses lived long before Jesus.

    Are you contending that Moses is in Hell (assuming that you believe that the afterlife exist)
    By your logic, he absolutely would be in hell as he did not at all live as Jesus taught.

    Unless murdering a guy and hiding the body is something you can do and still get into heaven with.


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    #67
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users Posts: 16,115 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    hinault wrote: »
    Moses lived long before Jesus.

    Are you contending that Moses is in Hell (assuming that you believe that the afterlife exist)

    Did Moses know Jesus?

    I think my point is that Jesus would contend that Moses can't make it to heaven.


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    #68
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    Did Moses know Jesus?

    I think my point is that Jesus would contend that Moses can't make it to heaven.

    Incorrect.

    I suggested to another poster that he/she (smacl) acquaint themselves with Moral Theology and the issue of Ignorance, earlier on this thread namely vincible and invincible ignorance.

    Put simply, Moses life predated the arrival of Jesus Christ. Therefore Moses through no fault of his own could not have been aware of Jesus teaching.

    In the meantime we know Moses is in Heaven because the apostles witnessed Jesus speaking with Moses at the Transfiguration.

    Similarly today, there may well some people who have never heard of Jesus Christ or His teaching, through no fault of their own but who may be living a life which conforms to God's righteous judments.


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    #69
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,722 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    hinault wrote: »
    I suggested to another poster that he/she (smacl) acquaint themselves with Moral Theology and the issue of Ignorance, earlier on this thread namely vincible and invincible ignorance.

    You need to establish some common ground with any atheist posters here before basing an argument on religious dogma, as we clearly neither share nor accept your religious beliefs. You might be better off discussing this with your fellow Christians on the Christianity forum. In this forum 'God did it' is not accepted as a rational answer to any question.


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    #70
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    hinault wrote: »
    In the meantime we know Moses is in Heaven because the apostles witnessed Jesus speaking with Moses at the Transfiguration.
    But Moses killed a person, hid the body and did nothing to seek forgiveness for it.
    You are now saying either that murder is something that is acceptable in the teachings of Jesus, or that Moses got a special, unfair pass.
    hinault wrote: »
    Similarly today, there may well some people who have never heard of Jesus Christ or His teaching, through no fault of their own but who may be living a life which conforms to God's righteous judments.
    But what about people who know about Jesus and reject him, yet are not bad people? Are these people sent to Hell? Your logic says that they should.

    Perhaps you should actually engage and stop ignoring questions and try to clear some of this up.

    Pretending questions don't exist do not make them go away, it just makes your position seem weak and dishonest.


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    #71
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    smacl wrote: »
    You need to establish some common ground with any atheist posters here before basing an argument on religious dogma, as we clearly neither share nor accept your religious beliefs

    There isn't any common ground to be had.


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    #72
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,081 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    hinault wrote: »
    There isn't any common ground to be had.

    So you're simply soapboxing then?

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #73
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    If anyone with knowledge of Jesus is damned if they reject him, telling ignorant people about him is profoundly immoral.


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    #74
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    If anyone with knowledge of Jesus is damned if they reject him, telling ignorant people about him is profoundly immoral.

    (Invincibly) ignorant people have every chance of being saved.

    Jesus commanded His apostles to preach and make disciples of all nations and peoples.


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    #75
    Bristolscale7
    Registered Users Posts: 541 ✭✭✭Bristolscale7


    hinault wrote: »
    Moses lived long before Jesus.

    Are you contending that Moses is in Hell (assuming that you believe that the afterlife exist)

    In the middle ages to rehabilitate Aristotle the christian church did some retroactive higgery jiggery that let's pre jesus people into heaven.


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    #76
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,081 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    If anyone with knowledge of Jesus is damned if they reject him, telling ignorant people about him is profoundly immoral.

    A few years back I got a quite lengthy random spam email about Islam. I'm convinced the aim was not to win conversions but to damn 'infidels' to hell as they could no longer use ignorance as a defence!

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #77
    donaldtramp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 224 ✭✭donaldtramp


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    If anyone with knowledge of Jesus is damned if they reject him, telling ignorant people about him is profoundly immoral.

    Wow Zubeneschmali, you've converted me to Atheism... The irony that this is your way of preaching, I'm sure the athetist gods will be finding this logic very immoral of you..


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    #78
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,081 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    donaldtramp wrote: »
    Wow Zubeneschmali, you've converted me to Atheism... The irony that this is your way of preaching, I'm sure the athetist gods will be finding this logic very immoral of you..

    End of a bottle post if ever I read one.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #79
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Bristolscale7 wrote: »
    In the middle ages to rehabilitate Aristotle the christian church did some retroactive higgery jiggery that let's pre jesus people into heaven.

    Given that the New Testament was written centuries before "the Middle Ages", and the gospels attest to Jesus and Moses talking to one another, I fail to see what point you're trying to make.


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    #80
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    hinault wrote: »
    Given that the New Testament was written centuries before "the Middle Ages", and the gospels attest to Jesus and Moses talking to one another, I fail to see what point you're trying to make.
    A lot of the modern interpretation of the bible was formed in the middle ages by philosophers like Aquinas. The idea of people being born before Jesus being redeemed came about because a lot of those medieval Christian philosophers were getting a hard on for the Greek philosophers. And they couldn't very well be using his writings if he was burning in hell with the rest of the heathens.

    The bible makes no mention of pre-Jesus people being saved.
    Moses and Moses alone does not really count with him being God's prophet and all. Plus with the murder he committed, he shouldn't have even been let into Heaven, which calls your premise into question.

    Are you arguing that it was only Moses and other special cases?

    And you continue to avoid the question about people today who reject Jesus.
    Do they get into heaven, yes or no?


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    #81
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    hinault wrote: »
    Jesus commanded His apostles to preach and make disciples of all nations and peoples.

    Yes, he did a lot of immoral stuff, if we are to believe the Bible.


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    #82
    donaldtramp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 224 ✭✭donaldtramp


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Yes, he did a lot of immoral stuff, if we are to believe the Bible.

    Since when is making people aware of a different way of life "immoral"? In fact, for the times that were in it, it was a pretty moral thing to be doing. Telling people that they don't have to be a slave to some "lord" and freeing people from oppression? Alright Mr. Old Fashioned.


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    #83
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    donaldtramp wrote: »
    Since when is making people aware of a different way of life "immoral"?

    Try and follow the argument:

    1) People who have never heard of Jesus can get into heaven by living a good life.

    2) People who have heard of Jesus but reject him are damned even if they live otherwise good lives.

    (These are not things I believe, I do not believe in gods or afterlives at all).

    If these two premises are true, then telling people about Jesus, people who do not already know, will lead some of them to reject Jesus and be damned even though they live otherwise good lives and would have gotten into heaven if you had kept your yap shut.

    So: telling people about jesus causes good people to go to Hell. You should obviously not do that.

    Jesus telling you to do it is instructing you to cause good people to go to Hell. Immoral as, well, Hell.


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    #84
    donaldtramp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 224 ✭✭donaldtramp


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Try and follow the argument:

    1) People who have never heard of Jesus can get into heaven by living a good life.

    2) People who have heard of Jesus but reject him are damned even if they live otherwise good lives.

    (These are not things I believe, I do not believe in gods or afterlives at all).

    If these two premises are true, then telling people about Jesus, people who do not already know, will lead some of them to reject Jesus and be damned even though they live otherwise good lives and would have gotten into heaven if you had kept your yap shut.

    So: telling people about jesus causes good people to go to Hell. You should obviously not do that.

    Jesus telling you to do it is instructing you to cause good people to go to Hell. Immoral as, well, Hell.

    I mean, clearly you're an atheist because that second point is completely not true. In fact, it's a strong belief in Christianity that those who reject god can make up for it if they live a good life. You don't have to go to church or pray to get into heaven and forgiveness is the #1 belief in Christianity, so it'd be an extreme contradiction for him not to forgive non-believers.

    Please educate yourself on different religions, and learn more about how they work before criticizing them. Nobody who doesn't let a preacher preach to them has the right to make assumptions on their religion.


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    #85
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    donaldtramp wrote: »
    In fact, it's a strong belief in Christianity that those who reject god can make up for it if they live a good life.

    Fine, your denomination does not accept that premise. Lots of them do:
    Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."


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    #86
    donaldtramp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 224 ✭✭donaldtramp


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Fine, your denomination does not accept that premise. Lots of them do:
    Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."

    Wow, quoting the bible to prove your knowledge. I mean, assuming that quote is legitimate: There are still hundreds of different ways of interpreting a sacred text. You really think that Adam & Eve were real? I mean, unless you're a fundamentalist, you have to believe that there are some metaphors in these parables. I could interpret that quote (and I do), that when you face your final judgement at the end of your life, that you must accept Jesus as your God, otherwise you'd only be causing havoc within the gates of heaven. You would of course wait in the purgatory until you change your mind if you lived out a good life.


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    #87
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    donaldtramp wrote: »
    In fact, it's a strong belief in Christianity that those who reject god can make up for it if they live a good life....

    Please educate yourself on different religions, and learn more about how they work before criticizing them...
    Where are you getting this doctrine from?
    It seems like you have become confused by the longstanding "Faith V Good Works" theological debate.
    But that is something different; one point of view says Faith + Good Works = ticket to heaven.
    Another says Faith alone = ticket to heaven.
    Neither of them says No Faith + Good Works = ticket to heaven.

    So unless you can quote some piece of bible text or something, we'll just have to presume you pulled this unique piece of "Christian doctrine" out of your own ass.


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    #88
    donaldtramp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 224 ✭✭donaldtramp


    recedite wrote: »
    Where are you getting this doctrine from?
    It seems like you have become confused by the longstanding "Faith V Good Works" theological debate.
    But that is something different; one point of view says Faith + Good Works = ticket to heaven.
    Another says Faith alone = ticket to heaven.
    Neither of them says No Faith + Good Works = ticket to heaven.

    So unless you can quote some piece of bible text or something, we'll just have to presume you pulled this unique piece of "Christian doctrine" out of your own ass.

    "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day."

    So, what he says on the last day is what will judge him, hence the saying "at the end of the day" commonly heard today. It doesn't matter who you are, whether you followed or not, but at the end of the day, it is the word god has spoken which will determine his/her faith.


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    #89
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    As for anyone who hears My words and does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world. There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words: The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it.…
    That's just Jesus saying its not me judging you. My daddy will judge you. So you better do as I say.


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    #90
    donaldtramp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 224 ✭✭donaldtramp


    recedite wrote: »
    That's just Jesus saying its not me judging you. My daddy will judge you. So you better do as I say.

    No, that's just your way of interpreting the quote.


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    #91
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    You're welcome to interpret it any way you like. That's the great thing about the bible.
    I just question whether there is anybody else who shares this doctrine of your denomination though, and whether it can even be called a Christian denomination?


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