Is Atheism in compatible with a belief in the Afterlife?

smacl

King Mob wrote: »

The mind being immortal and carrying on after the brain is not observed. There is zero evidence this happens or could happen.

The metaphor I usually use is typing your life's work into an old computer without a hard disk or internet connection. Before saving it you inadvertently kick the plug and lose the document. But where has it gone? It is your life's work after all and you don't have a backup copy, so the document must be somewhere right?

robindch

Pherekydes wrote: »

To use a horse racing analogy: Catholics believe there is one horse in the race and it is certain to win. Bet everything on it! In reality, there are 3000 horses in the race and none of them have a chance of even finishing. But go ahead, put everything you have on one horse...

3000? An infinite number! But as you say, just back the one which threatens the most.

railer201

Don't believe in the afterlife then ? - here's some food for thought !

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12118487.Former_pilot_tells_of_ghostly_meeting_with_dead_colleague/

A FORMER fighter pilot claims he spoke to the ghost of a colleague at Glasgow Airport.

Captain Bob Hambleton-Jones said yesterday that he had no idea that Robert Macleod, a friend and fellow pilot with Loganair, had died in an Edinburgh hospital four days earlier.

The two men had known each other for nine years and Captain Hambleton-Jones, who lives in Paisley, said: ``I'm not some kind of crank. I know who I saw and who I spoke to.

``He came up to me and said, `How's it going, you old bastard?' It was great to see him. We chatted for a couple of minutes and then he said, `I must go now.'


``I picked up my bags and turned around but he wasn't there. He was gone.''

It was the following day, last June 16, before a friend drew his attention to Mr Macleod's obituary in a newspaper, which confirmed he had died in Edinburgh Royal Infirmary on June 11.

Captain Hambleton-Jones, who has recently retired from flying, said: ``I was stunned. I thought it must be a mistake or a sick joke.''

Psychic research experts who investigated the claim say Captain Hambleton-Jones has had a paranormal experience which they call ``a post-mortem apparition''.

Captain Hambleton-Jones, who insists that he is ``an agnostic, a real Doubting Thomas, and the original sceptic'', contacted Professor Archie Roy of Glasgow University. He is a professor of Mathematics and Astronomy and is Scottish Head of Psychic Research.

Captain Hambleton-Jones, said: ``I told Professor Roy what had happened. He said that perhaps I had seen an actor or a lookalike.

``But Robert and I were captains in the same fleet for nine years and I know I spoke to him four days after he died.''

Ms Tricia Robertson, of the Scottish Society for Psychical Research, said: ``A post-mortem apparition happens when someone dies unexpectedly. His spirit is going about as normal because he doesn't believe he is dead.

``Such events are not that unusual. They happen more often than you would think.''


Mr Macleod, the son of retired Stornoway electrical contractor N D Macleod, died suddenly after a liver biopsy.

Management at Glasgow Airport are concerned that news of the ghostly encounter may scare off passengers. Airport managers and the British Airports Authority refused to discuss it - and did not want the airport named.

Captain Hambleton-Jones's experience will be featured in a 13-part Discovery Channel TV television documentary on the paranormal which the makers claim will be a sensible treatment of the subject

J C

Near death experiences are another phenomenon ... that indicates that we may have an existence beyond this life:-

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/309454.php

http://iands.org/ndes/about-ndes/key-nde-facts21.html

... and NDEs happen to all kinds of people ... including Atheists

... and Agnostics:-

J C

smacl wrote: »

The metaphor I usually use is typing your life's work into an old computer without a hard disk or internet connection. Before saving it you inadvertently kick the plug and lose the document. But where has it gone? It is your life's work after all and you don't have a backup copy, so the document must be somewhere right?

... a more accurate analogy might be that when your computer is about to 'kick the bucket' ... it backs up all of its memory into the cloud !!!:):pac:

J C

Pherekydes wrote: »

That's the same as betting on the Christian 'horse'.

... that's what Paschal's Wager is allright.
... and its a no-lose bet.

Pherekydes wrote: »

Tell me, when god was arranging for the slaughter of the innocents did he feel that they hadn't lived a good and wholesome life in this life?

What 'slaughter of the innocents' are you referring to?

J C

King Mob wrote: »

You believe torture is justified. That is a disgusting belief. Trying to hand wave and shift responsibility just makes you and your god look worse.

When did I say that eternal torture was justified? ... it is chosen.

Your assertion is like blaming me for the pain that masochists go through ... simply because I am liberal enough to accept that masochists have the right to be masochists (and associate with other masochists and even sadists) ... if that is what they want.

King Mob

J C wrote: »

When did I say that eternal torture was justified? ... it is chosen.

Your assertion is like blaming me for the pain that masochists go through ... simply because I am liberal enough to accept that masochists have the right to be masochists (and associate with other masochists and even sadists) ... if that is what they want.

Yea, chosen cause the option is submit or be tortured. This is not a choice.

And you believe that they deserve to be tortured for making that choice.
I hold that no one deserves to be tortured for any reason, never mind for eternity for thoughtcrime.
Not really my problem if you have trouble understanding this.

Near death experiences are another phenomenon ... that indicates that we may have an existence beyond this life:-

NDEs are entirely unscientific and without any evidence and are entirely consistent with the effects of oxygen deprivation to the brain.
There is no reason to think they indicate life after death unless you accept them uncritically.

King Mob

railer201 wrote: »

Don't believe in the afterlife then ? - here's some food for thought !

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12118487.Former_pilot_tells_of_ghostly_meeting_with_dead_colleague/

A FORMER fighter pilot claims he spoke to the ghost of a colleague at Glasgow Airport.

Why would this be convincing?
Its an unsupported, unproveable anecdote that has a hundred and one explanations if we assume its in anyway genuine and accurately reported.

Then we have the problem that its entirely incompatible with many types of afterlifes, including reincarnation and JCs brand. Neither of these allow for the possibility of ghosts.

railer201

King Mob wrote: »

Why would this be convincing?
Its an unsupported, unproveable anecdote that has a hundred and one explanations if we assume its in anyway genuine and accurately reported.

Then we have the problem that its entirely incompatible with many types of afterlifes, including reincarnation and JCs brand. Neither of these allow for the possibility of ghosts.

I've no mission to convince anyone - just food for thought.

King Mob

railer201 wrote: »

I've no mission to convince anyone - just food for thought.

But why did it convince you?

Why would it be food for thought when even a cursory application of critical thinking allows you to dismiss it pretty much off hand.

Pherekydes

J C wrote: »

What 'slaughter of the innocents' are you referring to?

Matthew 2:16, though the massacre of any innocent children would serve to illustrate the point.

And these children would have gone to hell because they had no personal relationship with Jesus.

J C

Pherekydes wrote: »

Matthew 2:16, though the massacre of any innocent children would serve to illustrate the point.

The massacre was done by Herod ... and not God. Stop blaming God for Human evil.

Pherekydes wrote: »

And these children would have gone to hell because they had no personal relationship with Jesus.

Why do you say this?

In justice, these children will have been given the choice at death between God and Satan ... and I would think that nearly all (if not all) of them have been Saved.

J C

King Mob wrote: »

Yea, chosen cause the option is submit or be tortured. This is not a choice.

The choice is between submitting to Satan or being Saved by Jesus Christ.

King Mob wrote: »

And you believe that they deserve to be tortured for making that choice.
I hold that no one deserves to be tortured for any reason, never mind for eternity for thoughtcrime.

... so do you believe that masochists don't have the right to suffer pain ... even when they want to suffer pain?

King Mob wrote: »

NDEs are entirely unscientific and without any evidence and are entirely consistent with the effects of oxygen deprivation to the brain.
There is no reason to think they indicate life after death unless you accept them uncritically.

How do you explain how some NDEs can describe things that happened in precise detail that they could only know if they were out of their bodies and fully conscious at the time ... even though they were clinically dead?

railer201

King Mob wrote: »

But why did it convince you?

Why would it be food for thought when even a cursory application of critical thinking allows you to dismiss it pretty much off hand.

I'm more curious of what posters in A&A think of it. I don't have much problems in accepting it as possible fact - having heard other similar testimonies, plus some personal experiences along the same lines.

King Mob

J C wrote: »

The choice is between submitting to Satan or being Saved by Jesus Christ.

Yea, submit or torture. Totally fair.:rolleyes:

J C wrote: »

... so do you believe that masochists don't have the right to suffer pain ... even when they want to suffer pain?

So what if someone doesn:t want torture, but also doesn:t want to submit to your god? Tough **** for them?

J C wrote: »

How do you explain how some NDEs can describe things that happened in precise detail that they could only know if they were out of their bodies and fully conscious at the time ... even though they were clinically dead?

I dont have to explain how it can happen because its never happened.

Please provide a single instance of this happening in conditions that can verifiably exclude other other mundane explanations.

Also, can you explain how NDEs fit with your version of the afterlife?

J C

King Mob wrote: »

Why would it be food for thought when even a cursory application of critical thinking allows you to dismiss it pretty much off hand.

I wouldn't be so dismissive ... hospice workers see and hear some pretty strange stuff with dying people

King Mob

railer201 wrote: »

I'm more curious of what posters in A&A think of it. I don't have much problems in accepting it as possible fact - having heard other similar testimonies along the same lines, plus some personal experiences along the same lines.

Then my opinion is that it:s complete nonsense. There:s zero reason to take this story, or other similar stories any way seriously.

I dont understand why you would take then seriously either. Given how quick you are to avoid the questions I pose, I dont think you have a very good reason for taking them seriously either.

King Mob

J C wrote: »

I wouldn't be so dismissive ... hospice workers see and hear some pretty strange stuff with dying people

So unverifiable, unsupported stories on youtube that for all you can show and can know are entirely fictional?

Yes, I will be dismissive with these.

Why do you accept these fictional stories as fact, but you would no doubt reject similar stories that "prove" the idea of reincarnation?

J C

King Mob wrote: »

Yea, submit or torture. Totally fair.:rolleyes:

So what if someone doesn:t want torture, but also doesn:t want to submit to your god? Tough **** for them?

The choice is between being tortured by Satan and his demons ... or being loved by God and His angels.

King Mob wrote: »

I dont have to explain how it can happen because its never happened.

Please provide a single instance of this happening in conditions that can verifiably exclude other other mundane explanations.

Here is a heart surgeon's account of an NDE in a patient who came back from the dead:-

railer201

King Mob wrote: »

Then my opinion is that it:s complete nonsense. There:s zero reason to take this story, or other similar stories any way seriously.

I dont understand why you would take then seriously either. Given how quick you are to avoid the questions I pose, I dont think you have a very good reason for taking them seriously either.

Fair enough but brick batting doesn't interest me.

J C

King Mob wrote: »

So unverifiable, unsupported stories on youtube that for all you can show and can know are entirely fictional?

Yes, I will be dismissive with these.

Here is a Cardiologist who recorded the details of NDEs and looked at it from a scientific point of view

People with flatline eeg with enhanced consciousness ... which proves that consciousness may not be localised and is outside time and space ... this is just as challenging for me as a Christian ... as it may be for an Atheist :-

King Mob

J C wrote: »

The choice is between being tortured by Satan and his demons ... or being loved by God and His angels.

Again, what if someone doesnt want to be tortured, but doesnt want to bow to your god?
They are codemned to torture, correct?
And you believe that they deserve said torture, correct?

J C wrote: »

Here is a heart surgeon's account of an NDE in a patient who came back from the dead:-

J C wrote: »

Here is a Cardiologist who recorded the details of NDEs and looked at it from a scientific point of view

Great, what evidence do they provide? Just accounts?

J C wrote: »

People with flatline eeg with enhanced consciousness ... which proves that consciousness may not be localised and is outside time and space ... this is just as challenging for me as a Christian ... as it may be for an Atheist :-

Ok, please provide evidence for this. A scientific research paper that confirms this point as well as verifies that the patient received new information under controlled conditions will do.

Otherwise, all these youtube videos arent really worth the paper they:re printed on.

King Mob

railer201 wrote: »

Fair enough but brick batting doesn't interest me.

So just wanted to post unsupported crap and don:t want to defend it in anyway. Gotcha.

Hotblack Desiato

railer201 wrote: »

I'm more curious of what posters in A&A think of it. I don't have much problems in accepting it as possible fact - having heard other similar testimonies, plus some personal experiences along the same lines.

Possible fact? as opposed to impossible facts?

Way to go there on setting the bar as low as you possibly could.

Pherekydes

J C wrote: »

The massacre was done by Herod ... and not God. Stop blaming God for Human evil.

God sent an angel to warn Joseph. But he didn't bother warning the parents of the other children. A sin by omission.

Why do you say this?

Jesus: No one can reach the father except through me.

In justice, these children will have been given the choice at death between God and Satan ... and I would think that nearly all (if not all) of them have been Saved.

Children under the age of two given a choice at the moment of their slaughter? Are you serious? :rolleyes:

railer201

King Mob wrote: »

So just wanted to post unsupported crap and don:t want to defend it in anyway. Gotcha.

The story is self-contained - however your opinion is very clear. I put it up as evidence of an afterlife, that's all. One either believes in an afterlife or not and I'm not interested in brick batting on the issue - it's crap to you - end of.

nozzferrahhtoo

railer201 wrote: »

Don't believe in the afterlife then ? - here's some food for thought !

Is it though? People claiming to hear, or converse, with people or voices that are not there is quite common. Just like people claiming to get kidnapped and probed (anally, it is always anally) by aliens is common on every continent.

I am not sure what level of thought you require we put into that though, or in what form.

What could be food for thought is the tiny piece of the text you chose to BOLD for consideration. I can only assume you think that someone claiming to be some form of skeptic somehow lends credibility to their claims. You might want to engage in some level of introspection as to why that is.

J C wrote: »

Near death experiences are another phenomenon ... that indicates that we may have an existence beyond this life

Except it is an indication of no such thing. The clue is in the name to help you out even. NEAR Death Experience. The patient did not die. They experienced what it is like to NEARLY die.

Near Death Experience is no more an experience of the after life than me walking up to, and then away from, a plane in Dublin Airport is an experience of a week long holiday in Morocco.

J C wrote: »

and NDEs happen to all kinds of people ... including Atheists

And people need to drink water, including atheists. Atheists are not some magical other species that different things happen to biologically. NDE is a real world phenomenon caused by a brain under extreme duress. There is no reason to expect it to function any differently for atheists than for theists.

Now if ONLY Theists were having near death experiences, and atheists never did........ THAT would be interesting data. There would genuinely be something to explain of interest there in that case.

But there is no reason, or at least none anyone like you has moved to make me aware of, to consider NDE an indication of there being any kind of after life.

J C wrote: »

When did I say that eternal torture was justified? ... it is chosen.

If at any highly unlikely point in my life I turn into a mugger, I have always intended to frame my mugging in similar language to that peddled by you god-botherer types.

I could say things like "I am not threatening you with this knife, I am just saying that if you do not give me all your money and jewelry you are CHOOSING to accept my knife between your ribs".

I am sure the moral distinction is one they will be highly appreciative of in the moment and afterwards.

J C wrote: »

Here is a heart surgeon's account of an NDE in a patient who came back from the dead

Except he did no such thing. But you are usefully demonstrating a very common lay man misunderstanding of the difference between "death" and "clinical death". The two are massively different things in many ways, but the lay public such as yourself as entirely unaware of the differences.

Of course as medical and biological scientists WE are partially to blame for this. It is our job to educate a lay public on the differences. I also think we could pick better words for many things. Using the word "death" there when it is not actually "death" is, at best, misleading.

Brian?

Using near death experiences as proof of an afterlife is like using an people hearing voices as proof of the existence of god. Easy to claim and even easier to dismiss.

railer201

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Is it though? People claiming to hear, or converse, with people or voices that are not there is quite common. Just like people claiming to get kidnapped and probed (anally, it is always anally) by aliens is common on every continent.

I am not sure what level of thought you require we put into that though, or in what form.

What could be food for thought is the tiny piece of the text you chose to BOLD for consideration. I can only assume you think that someone claiming to be some form of skeptic somehow lends credibility to their claims. You might want to engage in some level of introspection as to why that is.

So I gather the possibility that this is a true story and the pilot was actually talking to the spirit of his deceased friend is not an option you would consider.

I bolded that part because I thought that the pilot, being a non-believe,r was in keeping with the thread title.

nozzferrahhtoo

railer201 wrote: »

So I gather the possibility that this is a true story and the pilot was actually talking to the spirit of his deceased friend is not an option you would consider.

I consider all options that come before me with any form of substantiation. This is not one of those cases. We know stories like this happen all the time.

What I think people miss when parsing stories of this form is just how many people are on this planet. And just how many of them hear voices all the time.

So stories like the one you link to are almost a statistical necessity. They HAVE to happen. Why? Because SO MANY people are hearing voices in this world that eventually SOME of them have to coincide with a real world event.

A similar example is the people who claim things like "I was thinking about my friend, who I have not spoken to in 10 years..... and in THAT VERY MOMENT the friend phoned me!!!!!" as if some kind of psychic connection has occured.

And initially there is a kind of "wow" factor to a story like that until rationality takes over and you realize A) People think about friends and relatives all the time, sometime numerous times per day. People ring old friends all the time. c) Statistically there are going to be numerous cases where these two things coincide.

There is nothing remarkable at play there. What IS remarkable however is that someone can have a conversation with a person who demonstrably could not have been there and people rush to peddle this as evidence for an after life when what they SHOULD be rushing to do is inform the person in question that discussions with people who were not, and could not, have been there is a symptom that could be indicative of any number of underlying medical or psychological conditions. And he should be seeking the advice of numerous medical authorities, not the consultation of journalists.

smacl

railer201 wrote: »

I'm more curious of what posters in A&A think of it. I don't have much problems in accepting it as possible fact - having heard other similar testimonies, plus some personal experiences along the same lines.

Taking what people say as being true, even if they sincerely believe it true, without any strong supporting evidence is naive. On that basis God would exist, as would Allah, Shiva, Ganesh, Thor, Loki and Santa. In terms of trusted sources for testimony, those recovering from near death experiences would rank about the same as anyone else who'd had recent impairment to their mental faculties.

Panrich

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Is it though? People claiming to hear, or converse, with people or voices that are not there is quite common. Just like people claiming to get kidnapped and probed (anally, it is always anally) by aliens is common on every continent.

I am not sure what level of thought you require we put into that though, or in what form.

What could be food for thought is the tiny piece of the text you chose to BOLD for consideration. I can only assume you think that someone claiming to be some form of skeptic somehow lends credibility to their claims. You might want to engage in some level of introspection as to why that is.



Except it is an indication of no such thing. The clue is in the name to help you out even. NEAR Death Experience. The patient did not die. They experienced what it is like to NEARLY die.

Near Death Experience is no more an experience of the after life than me walking up to, and then away from, a plane in Dublin Airport is an experience of a week long holiday in Morocco.



And people need to drink water, including atheists. Atheists are not some magical other species that different things happen to biologically. NDE is a real world phenomenon caused by a brain under extreme duress. There is no reason to expect it to function any differently for atheists than for theists.

Now if ONLY Theists were having near death experiences, and atheists never did........ THAT would be interesting data. There would genuinely be something to explain of interest there in that case.

But there is no reason, or at least none anyone like you has moved to make me aware of, to consider NDE an indication of there being any kind of after life.



If at any highly unlikely point in my life I turn into a mugger, I have always intended to frame my mugging in similar language to that peddled by you god-botherer types.

I could say things like "I am not threatening you with this knife, I am just saying that if you do not give me all your money and jewelry you are CHOOSING to accept my knife between your ribs".

I am sure the moral distinction is one they will be highly appreciative of in the moment and afterwards.



Except he did no such thing. But you are usefully demonstrating a very common lay man misunderstanding of the difference between "death" and "clinical death". The two are massively different things in many ways, but the lay public such as yourself as entirely unaware of the differences.

Of course as medical and biological scientists WE are partially to blame for this. It is our job to educate a lay public on the differences. I also think we could pick better words for many things. Using the word "death" there when it is not actually "death" is, at best, misleading.

Great post and on the money for me. I particularly like your Moroccan holiday analogy.

Zubeneschamali

railer201 wrote: »

So I gather the possibility that this is a true story and the pilot was actually talking to the spirit of his deceased friend is not an option you would consider.

People tell anecdotes like this which prove that ghosts are real. Also, that Jesus is real and talks to them. Also that Islam is true, and Hinduism, and Budhhism, and Shinto, and all the other religions in the world.

But these religions cannot all be true - they contradict each other. After all - if human souls go straight to Heaven, or sleep until Judgement day, whichever version of Christianity you like, these souls will not be standing around Departures in Glasgow airport chatting to their mates. So if the Christians are correct, this story is false. Likewise if humans are reincarnated after death, they will not be appearing after death as adults.

So, we know for a fact that people tell these kinds of stories even though most of them are false. Hence, we can dismiss them unless there is some evidence that they are true.

King Mob

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

If at any highly unlikely point in my life I turn into a mugger, I have always intended to frame my mugging in similar language to that peddled by you god-botherer types.

I could say things like "I am not threatening you with this knife, I am just saying that if you do not give me all your money and jewelry you are CHOOSING to accept my knife between your ribs".

I am sure the moral distinction is one they will be highly appreciative of in the moment and afterwards.

I see it as more of a protection racket, since God isn't the one getting his hands dirty. He's just offering you the option of protection in case something bad should happen to your soul, which would be a real shame. Something bad like God's friend coming around and torturing you for a bit.

of course God would have nothing to do with that if that happened you see, he just set up this system and gave his buddy the ability to torture people and put him in charge of it.

God's a nice guy really, just looking out for you...

J C

Brian? wrote: »

Using near death experiences as proof of an afterlife is like using an people hearing voices as proof of the existence of god. Easy to claim and even easier to dismiss.

They're not the same thing, by a long shot.

With NDEs you have a flatlined brain with no eeg ... the supposed mechanism by which our mind exists and works ... and yet people are fully conscious, able to see and describe what was happening at the time ... even blind people.

You guys claim to be swayed by the evidence ... and here you have got evidence ... that you are summarily dismissing ... without even investigating it.

J C

King Mob wrote: »

I see it as more of a protection racket, since God isn't the one getting his hands dirty. He's just offering you the option of protection in case something bad should happen to your soul, which would be a real shame. Something bad like God's friend coming around and torturing you for a bit.

of course God would have nothing to do with that if that happened you see, he just set up this system and gave his buddy the ability to torture people and put him in charge of it.

God's a nice guy really, just looking out for you...

The analogy is closer to a wayward stubborn child who continues to do everything they can to break their parents heart ... while causing themselves endless grief in the process.

hgfj

Here's my theory or thesis or whatever - you get what you believe in. Its all in the mind, literally.

Over the years I've read maybe four or five books by different writers on near death experiences and one thing that seems to be common throughout most of these experiences is that people seem to report experiences that coincide with whatever their beliefs were beforehand. I have never read or heard of (yet) of anybody having an NDE and then converting from one religion to another. I've never heard of a Christian converting to Judaism as a result of a NDE, or a Jew converting to Hinduism, or a Muslim converting to Buddhism, etc. Basically I have yet to come across anybody coming back from a NDE and saying, Ok, the religion I believed in is wrong and therefore I'm switching from that belief to this belief. The exception would be an Atheist coming back saying, Now I believe in this or that which I didn't believe in before. But in most cases that I've read regarding Atheists who come back with a newfound belief is that they will usually revert back to a belief they previously had before they became an Atheist. A lot of people who are Atheist were brought up to believe in some religion or another. ie I am an Atheist but I was raised as a Catholic. Richard Dawkins was raised as an Anglican.

What I reckon is that something happens within the brain. I don't know what, maybe a release of chemicals at the moment just before death be it endorphins, serotonin, oxytocin, dopamine, or whatever. DMT (Dimethyltryptamine) could be a likely candidate. Whatever it is that happens is like a reflex action that occurs in order to ease the passage from life to death. Most people don't want to die even if they say they don't wish to live forever.

If this is the case (and I'm not saying specifically that it is) then the idea of what you believe in might be the difference between Heaven or Hell. Until the point when you actually do really die, ie true death, no return, lights out.

So, if someone is brought up to believe in the existence of Hell, and if they feel guilt, be it justified or not, then they may have a horrendous experience just before they die. Their last experience.

What I'm saying is people who preach to others about the reality of Hell may in fact be damning them to a Hell of sorts just by putting that idea into their consciousness. How cruel is that?

J C

hgfj wrote: »

Here's my theory or thesis or whatever - you get what you believe in. Its all in the mind, literally.

Over the years I've read maybe four or five books by different writers on near death experiences and one thing that seems to be common throughout most of these experiences is that people seem to report experiences that coincide with whatever their beliefs were beforehand. I have never read or heard of (yet) of anybody having an NDE and then converting from one religion to another. I've never heard of a Christian converting to Judaism as a result of a NDE, or a Jew converting to Hinduism, or a Muslim converting to Buddhism, etc. Basically I have yet to come across anybody coming back from a NDE and saying, Ok, the religion I believed in is wrong and therefore I'm switching from that belief to this belief. The exception would be an Atheist coming back saying, Now I believe in this or that which I didn't believe in before. But in most cases that I've read regarding Atheists who come back with a newfound belief is that they will usually revert back to a belief they previously had before they became an Atheist. A lot of people who are Atheist were brought up to believe in some religion or another. ie I am an Atheist but I was raised as a Catholic. Richard Dawkins was raised as an Anglican.

What I reckon is that something happens within the brain. I don't know what, maybe a release of chemicals at the moment just before death be it endorphins, serotonin, oxytocin, dopamine, or whatever. DMT (Dimethyltryptamine) could be a likely candidate. Whatever it is that happens is like a reflex action that occurs in order to ease the passage from life to death. Most people don't want to die even if they say they don't wish to live forever.

If this is the case (and I'm not saying specifically that it is) then the idea of what you believe in might be the difference between Heaven or Hell. Until the point when you actually do really die, ie true death, no return, lights out.

So, if someone is brought up to believe in the existence of Hell, and if they feel guilt, be it justified or not, then they may have a horrendous experience just before they die. Their last experience.

What I'm saying is people who preach to others about the reality of Hell may in fact be damning them to a Hell of sorts just by putting that idea into their consciousness. How cruel is that?

Its a point of view.
... many NDEs become Christians ... even some people who weren't 'cradle Christians'.
... be that as it may ... the really critical thing is that when the brain is flatlining (and should be incapable of any consciousness) the NDEs are observing everything that is happening to them ... and are able to recount it accurately afterwards.

Brian?

J C wrote: »

They're not the same thing, by a long shot.

With NDEs you have a flatlined brain with no eeg ... the supposed mechanism by which our mind exists and works ... and yet people are fully conscious, able to see and describe what was happening at the time ... even blind people.

You guys claim to be swayed by the evidence ... and here you have got evidence ... that you are summarily dismissing ... without even investigating it.

How you know there was no electrical activity in the brain during these "near death experiences"?

J C

Brian? wrote: »

How you know there was no electrical activity in the brain during these "near death experiences"?

They have established that electrical activity flatlines, when the blood supply stops.

... equally, how do you account for NDEs seeing what was going on ... when their eyes are shut?

King Mob

J C wrote: »

With NDEs you have a flatlined brain with no eeg ... the supposed mechanism by which our mind exists and works ... and yet people are fully conscious, able to see and describe what was happening at the time ... even blind people.

How do you know that:
1. A person has actually flatlined during an NDE?
2. That a person is actually aware while they are flatlining?
3. That the person reports events that only occur during the flatlining?
4. That the events they report actually happen as described and in detail? (For example, claiming you saw doctors working on you while you are floating above them is too vague and general. Of course Doctors would be working on you...)

Again, no NDE case has ever provided any confirmation of these factors or others. They always rely on gaps in this information.
Like maybe they didn't really flat line as in some of the examples you posted. Or they report things that happen before and after the flatline as during because they misremember something from a time when they were drugged and confused. Or they only report generic, unprovable things that could have happened at any time while they were unconcious or asleep.

There are dozens of explanation for NDEs, all of which you have to exclude somehow before you can conclude a supernatural explanation.

J C wrote: »

You guys claim to be swayed by the evidence ... and here you have got evidence ... that you are summarily dismissing ... without even investigating it.

Because you are not providing evidence. You are providing unverifiable, unsupported anecdotes. For all you know these people could be actors hired by the documentary makers.

And what about you? Why don't NDEs that involve non-christian heaven and afterlifes convince you? Do you think these don't happen?

J C wrote: »

The analogy is closer to a wayward stubborn child who continues to do everything they can to break their parents heart ... while causing themselves endless grief in the process.

So then the parents are justified in torturing the child?
Or abandoning them with a known torturer? (that have trained and financed)

Brian?

J C wrote: »

They have established that electrical activity flatlines, when the blood supply stops.

"they"? By "blood supply stops" do you mean the heart stops beating?

Actual research has shown that electrical activity continues for minutes after cardiac arrest. In rats it have been shown to increase immediately after cardiac arrest.

... equally, how do you account for NDEs seeing what was going on ... when their eyes are shut?

No idea. Not a one. But I'm ok with that. I'm not a neuroscientist. I'm pretty sure neuroscience will explain it some day.

Not knowing is fine with me. I don't need to fill the gap in knowledge with an afterlife or god.

You're the one who is proposing an explanation. It's up to you to supply evidence for your explanation. People experiencing NDEs is nothing more than evidence that something happens to some people when their hearts stop.

Let's be clear, the brain is very much alive and working for several minutes after the heart has stopped.

Hotblack Desiato

Most people 'see things' when their eyes are shut several times every night...

J C

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Most people 'see things' when their eyes are shut several times every night...

... but they don't 'see' what is going on around them, like clinically dead NDEs do.

King Mob

J C wrote: »

like clinically dead NDEs do.

No, they don't.

Please provide a single instance where you can:
1. Verify for a fact that the person was actually brain dead (not clinically dead),
2. Verify for a fact that they accurately reported specific events that occurred during the period of brain death.

If you cannot provide these things, then you cannot honestly claim that NDEs have any kind of supernatural element.

The examples you have given do not prove your point because:
1. They are not verified or verifiable in any point. For all you know, they are entirely fabricated.
2. Several do not involve a person undergoing brain death.
3. Several do not report any events that occur while they are unconscious.
4. None of them report any events that occurred while they are unconscious and could not be learned another way or are simply generic and obvious.

Brian?

J C wrote: »

... but they don't 'see' what is going on around them, like clinically dead NDEs do.

Care to respond to my post?

I don't think anyone who has had an NDE was clinically dead.

smacl

J C wrote: »

... but they don't 'see' what is going on around them, like clinically dead NDEs do.

Perhaps you could provide a link to a properly controlled study that verifies this, as I've searched and don't see anything of the kind. The only properly controlled study I could find suggests that NDE is possibly related to a surge of activity in the brain as it dies; http://www.nature.com/scitable/blog/brain-metrics/could_a_final_surge_in Subjective testimony of those with seriously impaired cognitive function for whatever reason can hardly be consider objective evidence, merely subjective experience.

nozzferrahhtoo

J C wrote: »

With NDEs you have a flatlined brain with no eeg ... the supposed mechanism by which our mind exists and works ... and yet people are fully conscious, able to see and describe what was happening at the time ... even blind people.

That is one of those lay man fallacies of which I spoke in the post above that you abjectly ignored.

A flat EEG does not in any way suggest the brain itself has flatlined. The Tools we use to measure brain activity measure very SPECIFIC brain activity. Not ALL activity. So when those machines flatten, it just tells us that THAT activity has stopped. Not ALL activity.

It would be like me giving you a tool which detects "red" and sending you into a room full of Yellows and Greens. The machine would register nothing and you would come out saying there is no "red" in the room. You would NOT come out claiming there was no color of any kind in the room.

J C wrote: »

You guys claim to be swayed by the evidence ... and here you have got evidence ... that you are summarily dismissing ... without even investigating it.

Except we do investigate it all the time. Sam Parnia for example.... someone HEAVILY biased TOWARDS finding evidence of an after life, has very much investigated the claim that people, "even blind people" can see the room they are in during NDE.

And he came back with NOTHING to support it.

And his experiments were sound and properly double blinded and so forth. But they basically consisted of placing concealed but highly unmissable and incongruent objects, in places where people would see them if they were ACTUALLY in the locations they reported being in during NDE (such as floating above the room looking down on their body).

Not one single patient "returned" from their NDE reporting having seen such objects. Even accounting for their observation abilities and attentions being perturbed by the shock of finding themselves floating about..... you would expect to have at least one positive hit from 100s on something like this.

But no.

Not one.

So the accusation that claims such as yours are somehow being dismissed without investigation could not be more disingenuous, poorly thought out, or false. Such claims are investigated often, and quite often by people who are biased heavily towards verifying them. And they still fail.

Every.

Time.

J C wrote: »

... equally, how do you account for NDEs seeing what was going on ... when their eyes are shut?

J C wrote: »

... but they don't 'see' what is going on around them, like clinically dead NDEs do.

As I said above, there is no reason to think they actually ARE seeing anything. Experiments like Parnia's have failed to show anything of the sort. As soon as any kind of control or procedure or methodology of verification is brought to bear on the issue..... there is not a single verifiable case of it anywhere.

ALL the data which you would hope supports a position like yours come from uncontrolled anecdote with absolutely no method of verification available to us.

The MOMENT any kind of investigation is established, not a single verifiable case occurs.

looksee

I can give one personal example of the brain being fooled. Years ago in my teens we used occasionally do a daft thing where you have a darkened room, one person lies on a table and five others stand round and say a chant together, each person having just two index fingers under the person, so one would have the head, two would have two fingers each under the back and two under the legs. At the end of the chant (if everyone could get through it without laughing) everyone lifted and the person would be easily lifted by just the ten fingers. I had my turn as the victim and I felt myself being lifted, but then I carried on going up high into the roof and hovered there for a moment till I was taken down again. I was totally spooked! I still clearly remember it and feel I could swear that I did float up to the ceiling.